Women teaching and having authority in the Church

[Mourad Mankarios]

My question is related to 2 main scriptural references:

"Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence." (1 Tim 2:11, 12)

"Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says. And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is shameful for women to speak in church." (1 Cor 14:34, 35)

With the above in mind what limits do churches place on the teaching and authority role of women in the church. I mean are they allowed for example to lead an adult male Bible Study, teach a theological class with adult males, take language classes with adult males, speak to a youth group (I mean from what age would the restriction begin), evangelise (ie is the prohibition limited to corporate worship or extend to individual relations as well and if the 1 became 2 then would it be considered corporate or what number would be considered as such)...Does this prohibition mean that she could not even ask questions in a Bible Study or seek spiritual counsel from an elder and what if her husband could not answer her questions? Also can she lead a church committee?

I'm really struggling with the above questions for two reasons due to the great talent that may seem to be wasted if not utilised and because of the greater emphasis, within western society especially, on women's equality, independence and freedom and yet the apparent Pauline prohibitions...

Also how are we to interpret the above in light of the following:

Women preaching in church
"But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, for that is one and the same as if her head were shaved." (1 Cor 11:5)

Women teaching
"So he began to speak boldly in the synagogue. When Aquila and Priscilla heard him, they took him aside and explained to him the way of God more accurately." (Acts 18:26)

"The churches of Asia greet you. Aquila and Priscilla greet you heartily in the Lord, with the church that is in their house." (1 Cor 16:19)

"Greet Andronicus and Junia, my countrymen and my fellow prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me." (Rom 16:7)

[Herman Blaydoe]

Women are certainly able to "teach" and evangelize, but not in a sacramental role. Note that they "took him aside" rather than accost him publically. And you do realize that Aquila is a man's name, right? And that he was Pricilla's husband?

[John Charmley]

Dear Mourad,

Very interesting thoughts here, and a good answer from Herman.

Having been through the whole 'women's ordination' saga in the Church of England, I am sensitised to the purpose to which some people use such passages from the Bible, and it is good to have them aired in the eirenic way you have done so, rather than the polemical way I have been used to.

There are complex issues here, and I have been told by Anglican feminists that as a man nothing I have to say on this issue is of any interest since it can only be a manifestation of my bias; this seems a sad form of reductionism to me, but that may, of course, prove their point.

Herman gets it spot on. Whatever may have been the cultural limitations imposed on women in some societies at all times, the Church does not teach that women are some kind of second-class citizen. The notion that it must do so because it will not let women minister the sacraments imports modern western notions of equality into a situation where they arguably have no real place. It won't let men who are not priests minister, either, and it won't let all men be priests; if I were a practising homosexual divorced man I might (as some in the Anglican Church do) argue it was discriminatory of the Church not to let me be a priest - but I would not be very surprised if most people thought I was behaving in a selfish and arrogant way by so doing. (Actually, I guess if I thought like that, I would be surprised, but you know what I mean?)

The priesthood is a call to a great sacrifice, and my respect and admiration for those who are called to it is immense. Who am I to question my Saviour as to why he chose men and not women to be apostles? He did so, and that is enough for me. But through the Blessed Theotokos He provided women with a role that no man could perform - so I guess the egalitarians should be out there protesting the fact that God never allowed men to become the bearer of life.

We are called to obedience and to follow the teachings of the Church. When the Church says that it has had it wrong these two thousand years and that women can be priests, I shall be obedient; as I am now.

None of this is to in any way detract from the fact that there is, in some parts of the history of Christianity, a sad record of unChristian behaviour to women - as there is towards men; one thinks of the years when the Church defended slavery, for example. But all of this is to acknowledge what Christ came into this world to bring - that we stand in need of redemption.

That is not negotiable - although we can refuse to change and insist we know best; the Church has a word for that attitude - sin.


In Christ,

John

[Andreas Moran]

Dear John,

It is worth mentioning that in the Orthodox Church, there are many women saints who are called 'equal-to-the-Apostles' (e.g., St Helen, patron saint of Colchester where I live). I think the veneration of the Mother of God is the key here. Protestants do not have this and so women are seen in a different way than in the Orthodox Church. Mary is the greatest person who will ever have lived (apart from her Son). As you say, no one has the right to be a priest, but the issue of the ordination of women in the Church of England was probably mixed up with women's rights.

I often think of the episode where Christ meets the Samaritan women at Jacob's well. Here was a 'rabbi', of all people, alone with a woman of ill-repute and a Samaritan at that. Yet He revealed to her what He had told His disciples to keep quiet about - that He was the Christ. A woman was the first witness of our Lord's Resurrection.

It is telling that among the people I know in countries such as Cyprus, Greece and Russia, there is no questioning of the reservation of the priesthood for men, and I'm sure that has nothing to do with what might be thought the traditional subjugation of uneducated women in such countries. Mrs Moran doesn't question it but she has a PhD from Moscow State University and is most definitely not inclined to be subjugated!

In Christ,

Andreas.

[Mourad Mankarios]

Thank you all for your replies. First of all my question has nothing to do with women and the priesthood. All I'm looking for is the framework within which women may teach or have authority in the church, especially in the light of the scripture passages given and traditional Christian practise. I understand too that there may be female saints who may be an exception to the norm but what I'm really looking for is current conventional church practises with regards to the questions posed:


With the above in mind what limits do churches place on the teaching and authority role of women in the church. I mean are they allowed for example to lead an adult male Bible Study, teach a theological class with adult males, take language classes with adult males, speak to a youth group (I mean from what age would the restriction begin), evangelise (ie is the prohibition limited to corporate worship or extend to individual relations as well and if the 1 became 2 then would it be considered corporate or what number would be considered as such)...Does this prohibition mean that she could not even ask questions in a Bible Study or seek spiritual counsel from an elder and what if her husband could not answer her questions? Also can she lead a church committee?


For example, I belong to the Coptic Church and in my local church women seem to be able to preach, teach and have authority. The only limit seems to be that she can't preach from the pulpit in a liturgical setting nor does she have a choir function say as may be practised in some EO or even other OO churches and nor can she read any of the epistles in a liturgical setting. I should add as well that I don't think I've ever witnessed a woman, in our church at least, address the entire congregation in a preaching function, another limitation I would assume. Therefore, in our church it would seem strangely I suppose that a woman may address a small group but not a large one and can have no special liturgical function. May be that's where my confusions come from as to how that would fit in the larger scheme of things. I would love to know the practises of other churches...As I understand it women are not permitted to teach in EO seminaries...

[Trudy]

All I'm looking for is the framework within which women may teach or have authority in the church, especially in the light of the scripture passages given and traditional Christian practise. I understand too that there may be female saints who may be an exception to the norm but what I'm really looking for is current conventional church practises with regards to the questions posed: I would love to know the practises of other churches...As I understand it women are not permitted to teach in EO seminaries...

Since there has not been a woman chiming in on this thread, though I've only skimmed it, I thought I'd jump in. It's always interesting when this topic crops up.

I will speak only from my limited experience as an Orthodox woman of 2 years.

If I understand it correctly, there is at least one Orthodox woman professor at St. Tikhon's Seminary in Pennsylvania. In my small church (OCA), women are permitted, with Father's blessing, to read the Hours and Epistle. Women read the Epistle in the GOA mission church where I was received. I am a Sunday school teacher of children ages 8 to 13 years old, of mixed gender. Father would permit me to teach an adult Bible study if there were enough interested people. And, a large portion of the work of our small church would not be done if it weren't for the women.

And if I understand my history and what I've learned from others here, the Orthodox Church would not have survived communism if it weren't for the Babushkas.

I don't know if any of this helps, but that is my limited experience.

Athanasia

[Tanya Hoadley]

Greetings All,

The Church has a long history of women in the primary role as teachers, educators, and confessors.

They are called mothers. :)

In Christ,
Tanya

[Olga]

In the church I have been attending for almost 10 years, we have a choirmistress, and a number of the women of the choir read during vigil/matins, as well as the Hours from time to time; also in the interval at Liturgy before the priest emerges with the chalice, the prayers before communion are usually read by one of the women. Our full-strength coir is about 18-20, about evenly divided between men and women.

... and yes, Athanasia, where WOULD the Church be without its babushki and yiayies! :))

[Maria Murray]

I have a question related to this topic. Obviously, women who attend seminaries are not there to be trained for priesthood. My question is, besides the priests' wives, how do most women use their seminary education? Is it only to teach children's Sunday school? Lead the choir? Do they use it to teach in a parochial or secular school? If so, what subjects can they teach?

Maria

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

I have a question related to this topic. Obviously, women who attend seminaries are not there to be trained for priesthood. My question is, besides the priests' wives, how do most women use their seminary education? Is it only to teach children's Sunday school? Lead the choir? Do they use it to teach in a parochial or secular school? If so, what subjects can they teach?

Maria

Women who attend seminaries can use the understanding they gain in all the ways you mention. Or they can use this simply to broaden their understanding of the Church.

Of course you would need to discuss the specific ways to use this within a parish setting with your priest. But I think most priests would be more than thankful for what this offered the parish.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Herman Blaydoe]

Not everyone who goes to a seminary goes to become priests, even men. Like Khouri Frederica, they might become authors, or at the very least they are better equipped to follow the admonishment of the Holy Apostle Paul, "...to be ready at all times to give a good defense..."

[RichardWorthington]

Consider the following two women:

Blessed Euphemia of Serbia "received the gift of preaching the word of the Lord, and large groups of people would gather around her to hear her God-inspired words" ("Blessed Euphemia of Serbia", Saint Herman Press, p.39), and "men and women came in great numbers and listened to her sermons with love" (p.40).

Moreover the Church blessed her in this preaching ministry. "On July 13 1936, Mother received the rank of Abbess, the pastoral staff, and a blessing from the Bishop to preach in church and give instruction to the faithful whenever she desired, which she often did, not complaining of the task" (p.80). Again, one of her fellow ministers, Abbess Anna, "concerned herself with the education and preparation of young men for the priesthood" (p.119 footnote).

And, lest anyone think that she was an innovator, consider St Nina of Georgia (4th Century). Before she went to Georgia, the Patriarch of Jerusalem "led Nina into the church and up to the holy altar, and placing his hands on her head, he prayed" and amongst other words he prayed, "give her words such force and wisdom that no one will be able to oppose or refute them". Furthermore, on her way an angel appeared to her and gave her a scroll on which were written verses which applied to her: "He who receives you receives me" (Mathew, 14:40), "I will give you a mouth and wisdom" (Luke 21:15), and others. http://www.stnina.org/stnina/life/keck

I read somewhere that the Orthodox church keeps the tradition with regard to women priests (i.e. no women priests) but ignores the tradition with regard to women deaconesses, for example. (I.e. no deaconesses despite leading bishops and theologians being in favour - who would ordain a deaconess, if not a bishop? So how can a bishop be in favour of deaconesses if he does absolutely nothing about it! I envy the Copts, who have deaconesses.)

The examples given are monastic, but surely something more could be done in general church life?

Richard

[Yuri Zharikov]

I read somewhere that the Orthodox church keeps the tradition with regard to women priests (i.e. no women priests) but ignores the tradition with regard to women deaconesses, for example. (I.e. no deaconesses despite leading bishops and theologians being in favour - who would ordain a deaconess, if not a bishop? So how can a bishop be in favour of deaconesses if he does absolutely nothing about it! I envy the Copts, who have deaconesses.)


Richard
I have just read this very interesting article on diaconesses http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/general/deaconnesses.aspx
from which it follows that they were not "ordained" but rather tonsured and blesses (as e.g. readers are today) and they in their natural capacity would be of little use these days. I tend to agree with the article, but would be interested to know what people think.

In the Lord,
Yura

[Kosta]

The main function of deaconesses were to assist in female baptisms. But since female adults are no longer baptized in the nude, theres no reason for their assistance.

But the Church of Greece did re-instate the order of deaconess in 2004. But to what extent i do not know

[Herman Blaydoe]

There is no argument that deaconesses existed, in sundry forms in divers places, but I certainly get the impression it was never a universal nor consistent practice. In some places there was a formal ordination. In other places it was merely a tonsure. At any rate, the candidates were usually taken from the widows or virgins, as far as I have been able to determine they were not married, and the office itself seems to have become absorbed into the rise of monasticism, with isolated attempts to "revive" the practice here and there, that don't seem to have amounted to much.

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

I read somewhere that the Orthodox church keeps the tradition with regard to women priests (i.e. no women priests) but ignores the tradition with regard to women deaconesses, for example. (I.e. no deaconesses despite leading bishops and theologians being in favour - who would ordain a deaconess, if not a bishop? So how can a bishop be in favour of deaconesses if he does absolutely nothing about it! I envy the Copts, who have deaconesses.)


But strictly speaking this is not so. Keep in mind that when we speak of the priesthood as being kept to those who are male we are referring specifically to their priestly ministry. The diaconate however does not have this specific ministry.

In any case as pointed out above deacons and deaconesses took on different aspects of service within the Church. From what I have read this difference arose from the earliest times within the Church.

in Christ- Fr Raphael

[Seda S.]

I envy the Copts, who have deaconesses.
Richard

The deaconesses in the Coptic Church are not deaconesses in reality. They are just charity sisters which, you know of course, exist aslo in the Catholic Church. They do not serve, like the deacons, during church services, they are not ordained. So they are called deaconesses in the sense of "servants". Nothing more.

But: ordained deaconesses really existed in the Armenian Church, and if I'm not mistaken, also in the Syriac Church. The last Armenian deaconess, Sister Hripsime Sasunyan, died in Istanbul some years ago. She was ordained by the Patriarch Shnorhk Kalousdian.
In the past we had deaconesses mostly in the convents. These deaconesses would do everything which the deacons do during the services. So, in the monasteries for women they would need only a priest to celebrate the Liturgy. All the other tasks would be carried out by the virgins. They would help the priest also during baptisms of women etc. They had their special dresses for services (for example, they had a small cross hung from their foreheads). There are photos of such deaconesses. I'll try to scan them and put here, if I'm able to do it and if, of course, it is interesting for you.

Seda