Church of the Genuine Orthodox Christians of Greece

[Andrew James]

Greetings in the Lord!

I have been a bit baffled by something I have read on the wikipedia entry on the Orthodox Church. At the bottom of the article it lists churches that are in full communion, and it lists churches that are in part communion. In the part communion list it includes such churches as the Macedonian and ROCOR. To my surprise the Genuine Orthodox Church of Greece is also listed. Is this a complete error, or is there some truth to it?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Orthodox_Church

In Christ,
Andrew

[Herman Blaydoe]

What is the question? That the Old Calendar Greeks exist and are not in communion with the New Calendar Churches? Yes that is true. That they are part of the Orthodox Church? Well, I suppose opinions differ as to who is in schism with who and this is Wikipedia, not the Encyclopedia Britannica.

[Andrew]

the Synod in Resistance considers itself a part of the Church of Greece, but walls itself off in protest over ecclesial matters. I think Archbishop Christodoulos said he considers them fully Orthodox, and some people within the Church of Greece receive communion at the Genuine Orthodox Church. I hope they come back into full communion at some time... the whole Greek Old Calendarist movement is very confusing and somewhat depressing :( A lot of them could be doing a lot of good for the local and Patriarchal Churches.

It's interesting that a large amount of Patristic translations and commentaries in English are coming out of Greek Old Calendarist Churches in America.

I'm sure the Greeks here, or people who spent much time in Greece, like Father Seraphim, could tell us more about these groups.

[Andreas Moran]

Can someone explain the difference between 'communion', 'full communion', and 'part communion'?

[Herman Blaydoe]

I guess "partial" communion is where Church A specifically says they are not in communion with Church C, but are in communion with Church B. However, Church B is still in communion with Church C. Like all families, it sometimes gets complicated...

[Andreas Moran]

Hmmm - I'm sure I am better informed but I am none the wiser.

[Herman Blaydoe]

There is NO "official" definition, because, when all is said and done, there is only communion or no communion. There is no "part" communion. If someone says there is, they are simply using the very artificial reasoning I presented, and I agree it makes no sense!

[Kosta]

Some of the greek old calendarists were in communion with ROCOR. Perhaps partial communion is refering to concelebrations which do occur (rarely) between certain bishops of ROCOR and GOC churches (Cyprianite & GOC Chrysostomos) but not on an official basis. Even the late Patriarch Diodoros of Jerusalem visited (and concelebrated??) at the Cyprianite monastery in Greece for its feast day once.

[Peter Farrington]

Also the ROCOR monastery at Brookwood and the ROCOR convent at Willesden with a parish on the Isle of Wight all seem to have left ROCOR and joined a Greek Old Calendarist jurisdiction.

Is there any communion between ROCOR and the GOC now? There would be little point in leaving ROCOR for a jurisdiction that still considered ROCOR in communion with it?

[Andreas Moran]

Peter - can you confirm that Brookwood has left ROCOR? Is this because of the rapprochement with MP? The point is important to us.

Thanks,

Andreas.

[Peter Farrington]

Unless all the info I have been reading is wrong, much of it from ROCOR sources, then it is true that the monastery at Brookwood, the convent at Willesden and the parish on the Isle of Wight have all left because of the rapprochment with the MP.

Is it not the case that the Lesna convent in Paris has also left or indicated that it will be leaving as soon as the reunion becomes a done deal?

Peter

[Andreas Moran]

Thanks, Peter. Oh dear! I'd like to get all these folk in one room and bash their heads together. Talk about re-arranging the deckchairs on the Titanic?!
And how many people hereabouts will be able to take Holy Communion there? It's enough to make me think that the best thing I could do would be to buy a little wooden house near the Lavra.
Andreas.

[Peter Farrington]

Yes, it is disappointing.

Do you or anyone know which jurisdiction the Normanby Convent is in at the moment, or is it still operating even?

Peter

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Thanks, Peter. Oh dear! I'd like to get all these folk in one room and bash their heads together. Talk about re-arranging the deckchairs on the Titanic?!
And how many people hereabouts will be able to take Holy Communion there? It's enough to make me think that the best thing I could do would be to buy a little wooden house near the Lavra.
Andreas.

ROCOR was at one time in communion with the Holy Synod in Resistance headed by Metropolitan Cyprian of Oropos & Fili (often called the Etna jurisdiction here in North America), and also with Bulgarian and Romanian Old Calendar groups.

In recent times this communion was broken from both sides due to ROCOR's rapprochement with the MP & ROCOR's unwillingness to be in communion with groups refusing to pursue reconciliation with their own churches.

To my knowledge the monasteries and convents listed in these posts have all left ROCOR. Some, like Fr Alexis of Brookwood, have gone with Metropolitan Cyprianos of Fili. I'm not sure about Lesna.

For as long as I can remember the question concerning such 'resisting' & Old Calendar groups (of which ROCOR at one time considered itself to be part of) is whether they are prophetic voices accurately warning of the impending sinking of the Titantic. Or whether they are like the helmsman on board the Titantic, who while accusing his fellow crewsmen of dereliction of duty, crashes the ship into the iceberg.

The question has always been of this kind. And as can be seen when actively engaged in discussing it there is often no clear cut answer. Often valid points are being made about the Church but perhaps in not the correct way.

From my own perspective at least, what ROCOR is saying by its having broken communion with these groups is that there was a time when such resisting activity was legitimate and a time when it is not. Again no easy answers.

But the point is that canonical resistance is not eternally justified; it has a limited shelf-life. Either Orthodox churches are in communion with each other along with the accompanying weaknesses & mistakes; or due precisely to these weaknesses & mistakes they are not. The latter course however cannot continue forever without this implying that those we are not in communion with are in fact not Orthodox. Trying to keep to the middle ground of 'they're Orthodox but we're not in communion due to serious problems' does not allow for a long-term solution. Insisting on the middle or resisting ground past its time seriously distorts the nature of the Orthodoxy one claims to be defending.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Andreas Moran]

Dear Peter,

Normanby closed some time ago under very unfortunate circumstances. It did not 'move' but was wound up.

Andreas.

[Robert Hegwood]

Dear Fr. Raphael,

Bless. What happens...or is likely to happen if there is a rapprochment with the MP? Will ROCOR meld in some way with the OCA? If they do, what is the likely resolution to the calendrical differences? An "all Russian" council perhaps to iron out a solution?

As a member of the OCA with strong old calendrist/traditionalist leanings I think we need the witness and traditionalist fidelity that ROCOR has taken great pains to preserve. It would be a joy to me personally to see the rerunification of the Russian withness in North America.

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear Fr. Raphael,

Bless. What happens...or is likely to happen if there is a rapprochment with the MP? Will ROCOR meld in some way with the OCA? If they do, what is the likely resolution to the calendrical differences? An "all Russian" council perhaps to iron out a solution?

As a member of the OCA with strong old calendrist/traditionalist leanings I think we need the witness and traditionalist fidelity that ROCOR has taken great pains to preserve. It would be a joy to me personally to see the reunification of the Russian witness in North America.

God bless.

From what has been said officially by our church, ROCOR's main goal has been canonical reconciliation with the MP. The reason this has taken priority is that in the founding statutes of ROCOR it is stated that, "ROCOR is an indissoluble part of the Russian Orthodox Church, and for the time until the extermination in Russia of the atheist government, is self-governing on conciliar principles in accordance with the resolution of the Patriach [ie Tikhon], the Most Holy Synod, and the Higher Church Council of the Russian Church dated 7/20 November, 1920, No. 362." (Regulations of ROCOR #1) Again, from what has been officially explained by ROCOR's synod of bishops, with new conditions in Russia both in society and within the Church, the time had come when an official process needed to begin in order to attempt the resolution of the canonical separation between ROCOR and the Church in Russia. Without this attempt, it was explained, ROCOR's canonical position would be in question.

So far we know that the delegates of the 4th All Diaspora Assembly last May, voted in favour of reconciliation. The Synod of bishops approved of this at their meeting in December. Now we also know that over the Feast of the Ascension (May 17) there will be a ceremony marking canonical reconciliation with the first liturgical concelebration following.

How this will affect ROCOR's relationships with the other Orthodox churches is not certainly known at this point. We have seen at least two official meetings between ROCOR & the OCA since the reconciliation process began. But as far as I recall it is not known whether any official canonical questions were raised at these meetings.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Rebecca Gabl]

I am well acquainted with Lesna. Quite recently, they specifically told me that the internet rumors are false, and that they have not left ROCOR, though they are very much against the union.
I don't know if Mother Evfrosinia still visits this forum, but perhaps she will elaborate at some point on their position.

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

I am well acquainted with Lesna. Quite recently, they specifically told me that the internet rumors are false, and that they have not left ROCOR, though they are very much against the union.

That's good to hear.

Although it's striking how certain the reports of Lesna leaving were.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Rebecca Gabl]

Although it's striking how certain the reports of Lesna leaving were.



Well, they emphasized that they certainly are still part of ROCOR. So whatever their plans are for after the reunification, they aren't yet at the point of issuing a definitive statement about it.

[Father David Moser]

I am well acquainted with Lesna. Quite recently, they specifically told me that the internet rumors are false, and that they have not left ROCOR, though they are very much against the union.
I don't know if Mother Evfrosinia still visits this forum, but perhaps she will elaborate at some point on their position.

I think the question I would like to have answered is not "have they left ROCOR" but "who is their ruling bishop". There are a number of schismatic groups out there who call themselves "ROCOR" but who are in fact in schism from the synod of bishops of ROCOR. One such example is the "Mansonville" group in NA now putatively "ruled" by the self styled Metropolitan Anthony (aka Fr Nikita Orloff) of somewhere in California (I don't recall exactly where). All the ROCOR clergy recently received a "ukase" from him announcing I forget what but claiming to be the "real' metropolitan of the "real" ROCOR. So it could easily be a word game. If Lesna is still in ROCOR then they are still under Archbishop Mark of Berlin, or perhaps the convent was transfered to Bishop Michael of Geneva. If their bishop is anyone else, then something is awry.

Fr David Moser

[Rebecca Gabl]

Yes, they are still under Bishop Michael (France is part of the diocese of Geneva and Western Europe.) In fact, they sent a representative to the diocesan council to experess their concerns.

[Andreas Moran]

Can anyone confirm that MP has said its members may not receive Holy Communion from Bishop Basil?

[Peter Farrington]

I seem to be on a mailing list put out by a Brother Nathaniel of ROCOR who keeps suggesting (well stating very forcefully) that there are large numbers of ROCOR members in the US who reject the proposed union with the MP.

What is the case?

Who is this man and does his website have any substance -

http://sbn-nathanael.livejournal.com

Listening to him one would think that there are still massive ecclesiological and doctrinal issues standing in the way of union and that even a majority of ROCOR in the US are against the union. But I know the way of the internet and he may represent no more than himself.

Do ROCOR folk here know this man? Does he have any substance?

Peter

[Rebecca Gabl]

He is notorious for making all kinds of unsubstantiated claims. He has been kicked off of several forums, and is not a member of ROCOR, though he may be part of one of the schisms that calls itself ROCOR, as Fr. David mentioned.

[Peter Farrington]

Hi Rachel

Thanks for the comments. Although it is not hard to get kicked off forums. I have been kicked off forums!

Peter

[Andrew]

I seem to be on a mailing list put out by a Brother Nathaniel of ROCOR who keeps suggesting (well stating very forcefully) that there are large numbers of ROCOR members in the US who reject the proposed union with the MP.

What is the case?

Who is this man and does his website have any substance -

http://sbn-nathanael.livejournal.com

Listening to him one would think that there are still massive ecclesiological and doctrinal issues standing in the way of union and that even a majority of ROCOR in the US are against the union. But I know the way of the internet and he may represent no more than himself.

Do ROCOR folk here know this man? Does he have any substance?

Peter

Count how many times this man mentions Our Lord and Savior in these articles of his.

[Rebecca Gabl]

I personally know some of the people he writes about on his website and I know that, though these individuals are against the union, the information he presents is not accurate.

[Jeff Johnson]

In a nearby small city there are parishes of the HOCNA and TOC of Greece. One congregation meets in a home and another is in a building I've driven past that I thought was once an Orthodox church but later became a synagogue. Anyway, since they are so close and I'm curious, I'd like to call the numbers I have for the 2 churches and visit. As a New Calendar Greek Orthodox, is that a good idea, or are these people going to chase me away? Neither congregation has had any contact with my parish, except my former pastor had some experiences (bad) with the TOCofG priest. I just want to come and observe.

[Kosta]

Well the union between ROCOR and the MP was inevitable. The greek old calendarist jurisdictions definatley have more in common with ROCOR than they do with the GOA (E.P.) The GOC under bishop Chrysostomos alittle while back concelebrated a liturgy with a ROCOR bishop (unofficially of course since they werent in comunion). They are kindred spirits and i know of one ROCOR monastery from upstate new york that joined the Chrysostomos synod.

The Greek old calendarists definatley have a canonical right to seperate especially when you look into the historical roots of this schism, but ROCOR's seperation with the M.P. was based on totally different circumstances. So groups such as ROAC and whoever else seperated themselves from ROCOR dont have a leg to stand on.

Most greek theologians with a strict traditionalist view have no choice but to leave the GOA and enter into communion with the greek old calendarists.

There is no room left for them in the greek Orthodox churches of the diaspora. There has indeed been monks, theologians, and layman that have been condemned (defrocked & excommunicated) for speaking out and writing against ecumenism and criticising the E.P. This is an undeniable fact.

In fact, i myself a lifelong cradle Orthodox layman in the GOA (my entire life)am feeling the effects, Accomodating anti-ecumenist traditionalists in the GOA is shrinking, im one of the lucky ones though, not only are greek old calendarists not viewed as schismatics within the greek community (perhaps abit fanatical) but in the area i live theres also a monastery under the J.P. which has room for us if we choose to stay wth a patriarchate .

[Kosta]

In a nearby small city there are parishes of the HOCNA and TOC of Greece. One congregation meets in a home and another is in a building I've driven past that I thought was once an Orthodox church but later became a synagogue. Anyway, since they are so close and I'm curious, I'd like to call the numbers I have for the 2 churches and visit. As a New Calendar Greek Orthodox, is that a good idea, or are these people going to chase me away? Neither congregation has had any contact with my parish, except my former pastor had some experiences (bad) with the TOCofG priest. I just want to come and observe.


I personally would have no problem (of course im a no one) with visiting the TOC church (its probably a cyprianite church) but i'd stay away from the HOCNA church.

HOCNA has no ties with any synod in the old country, no bishop from Greece recognize them in any way (even though they wrote a book on promoting one of the synods in Greece as being the 'true' movement, this same group doesnt want them neither) ,HOCNA also has some serious moral allegation against their monastery in brookline (which is the reason they are isolated and possibly why ROCOR originally severed ties with them).

I've never had any problem with recommending an old calendarist church, as long as the seeker researches the synod and its lead by a right-believing bishop with apostolic succession.

[Anastasios Hudson]

I'm a "real, live" Old Calendarist under His Emminence, Metropolitan Pavlos of America and His Beatitude, Archbishop Chrysostomos II of Athens. I also am friendly and open-minded. I suppose being Old Calendarist and being friendly is a rare combination on the internet, at least one would think ;) If anyone has any questions, ask away. I'm not here to proselytize though, just provide information since I saw this thread and figured I could perhaps answer any questions.

Anastasios

[Paul Cowan]

Welcome:
Enjoy your stay here.

Paul

[M.C. Steenberg]

I'm a "real, live" Old Calendarist under His Emminence, Metropolitan Pavlos of America and His Beatitude, Archbishop Chrysostomos II of Athens. I also am friendly and open-minded.

Sure, sure: say what you like, but we know you must be mean and curmugeony.

(For those preparing to hit the 'Reply' button in angry response, the sarcasm should be evident from the fact that I, too, am on the Old Calendar - as are many other in this Community - filling in the wide spectrum of traditions keeping to the old calendar.)

INXC, Matthew

[Anthony]

Hmmm, something strange seems to have happened to my post. I will try again.


Dear Peter,

Normanby closed some time ago under very unfortunate circumstances. It did not 'move' but was wound up.

Andreas.

Dear Andreas, Христос воскресе!

I have just caught up with this sad piece of news. Perhaps you could tell me more about the circumstances (by private mail if appropriate)? I used to be quite a frequent visitor there, and am not just asking out of idle gossip.

Anthony

[Andrew]

I'm a "real, live" Old Calendarist under His Emminence, Metropolitan Pavlos of America and His Beatitude, Archbishop Chrysostomos II of Athens. I also am friendly and open-minded. I suppose being Old Calendarist and being friendly is a rare combination on the internet, at least one would think ;) If anyone has any questions, ask away. I'm not here to proselytize though, just provide information since I saw this thread and figured I could perhaps answer any questions.

Anastasios

I just have some questions...

What are the conditions in which the synod that your bishop belongs to would come back into full communion with the Greek Orthodox Church? Have there been any attempts made at coming back? How do bishops and lay people in the Orthodox Church of Greece view Archbishop Chrysostomos II's synod? Is this the "Synod in Resistance" traditionalist group? At what point did the synod wall itself off? How does it view the rest of the Orthodox Church (ie the patriarchal churches and autonomous ones in communion with them)?

Thanks for answering my questions... I wish the moderate old calendarists would come back within the local churches.

[Anastasios Hudson]

I just have some questions...

What are the conditions in which the synod that your bishop belongs to would come back into full communion with the Greek Orthodox Church? Have there been any attempts made at coming back? How do bishops and lay people in the Orthodox Church of Greece view Archbishop Chrysostomos II's synod? Is this the "Synod in Resistance" traditionalist group? At what point did the synod wall itself off? How does it view the rest of the Orthodox Church (ie the patriarchal churches and autonomous ones in communion with them)?

Thanks for answering my questions... I wish the moderate old calendarists would come back within the local churches.

Hi Andrew,

I should start by explaining that the distinction between moderate and extremist Old Calendarists is one created by the Synod in Resistance after the fact to justify its separation from the mainstream Holy Synod of the GOC in 1979, and was not the reason that the split occurred (it had to do with some serious canonical problems in our Synod that had cropped up). We had had some serious problems in the period of 1976-1985, and they felt that having a few of their holy archimandrites consecrated would be the best way to restore order to the Church. According to their account, they received a blessing from the Archbishop, Auxentios, to do this, although they did not have synodal approval, which in the end, is the canonical course of action. The Archbishop sided with the other bishops, and after some time, all the new bishops returned to the Synod in 1984, save for Metropolitan Cyprian of Oropos and Fili and Metropolitan Giovanni of Sardinia. As such, for us, the issue is resolved and we do not accept the claims of the Synod in Resistance, which is how Metropolitan Cyprian's Church now styles itself. This being said, I must say that I have corresponded with one bishop of their Synod for four years and another for a year, and I find them to be men of integrity and good will. I just don't accept their explanation of the events as they transpired, preferring the testimony of the holy bishops and priests in our Synod and the documentary evidence. His Beatitude, Archbishop Chrysostomos II is the head of our Synod, which is by far the largest Synod of Old Calendarists in Greece, with some 200 parishes and eleven bishops. Our bishop in America is His Eminence, Metropolitan Pavlos. They Synod in Resistance is headed by His Eminence Metropolitan Cyprian of Oropos and Fili, whose synodal exarch in America is His Eminence Archbishop Chrysostomos of Etna.

I don't know how lay people in Greece view the Church...I am sure the situation is similar to the situation in America where we find some love us, some hate us, and some are indifferent. We are not so concerned with others' opinions of us, but we strive above all to be good witnesses to Orthodox tradition, part of which is hospitality and charity.

Our Synod is the original GOC that came into being in 1935 when three bishops returned to the Old Calendar (although we maintain that we are the legitimate Church of Greece and so we are merely a continuation of the pre-New Calendar Church). Our last bishop died in 1955 at which point we were left without a hierarchy. Recognizing the uncanonical situation this put us in, we sought out ROCOR and received bishops from them. At first unofficial, the ROCOR ratified its communion with us officially in 1969 and it lasted until 1976, when a mistake made by our Archbishop, in ordaining a ROCOR priest without a release to be a bishop in our Church in Portugal, transpired. This was a sad day and a major mistake on our part (we believe that we witness to traditional Orthodoxy, but not that we are perfect).

As to whether we have tried to come back: we believe that we are in the right and that the local Church in Greece on the New Calendar is the one that needs to come back. However, if the local Church of Greece on the New Calendar would drop the use of the New Calendar, withdraw from the WCC, and break communion with the Ecumenical Patriarchate and other ecumenists (or if they would all renounce the NC and the WCC in unison) then we would happily enter communion with them instantly. Our most recent dialogue with the New Calendar Church was in 2004.

As for our view on the various local Churches that one might call the "mainstream Orthodox": officially, in 1935 the returning bishops declared the NC bishops to be schismatics and without grace, and they also declared us to be schismatics and without grace. That is the official position to this day, although one might hold private opinions to the contrary in either camp. For me, clearly heretics have no grace, but not all NC's are guilty of a heresy. The problem for us is that anti-ecumenists mix freely and commune with ecumenists in the "mainstream" synods/autocephalous churches.

I hope that this provides you with a comprehensive answer to your questions.

In Christ,

Anastasios

[John Charmley]

Dear Brothers and Sisters in Christ,

Today's (18 May 2007) London Times http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article1805641.ece
carries this report

Police hunt monks who want to turn back the clock
Police combed the wooded hills of the Mount Athos monastic community in Northern Greece yesterday after a militant band of monks barged their way in to join an Ascension Day service.

The action by hundreds of bearded and black-clad monks belonging to the Old Calendarists, a sect that refuses to follow the modern Western calendar, brought turmoil to the 1,000-year-old community on the rocky peninsula.

The unrest broke out as President Papoulias of Greece was escorting Heinz Fischer, the Austrian President, on a visit to Mount Athos.

The monks, who had travelled from the mainland, pushed past police at the sole landward entrance to the Esphigmenou monastery, a crumbling yet idyllic cloister facing the sea and the most reactionary of Mount Athos’s 20 organised monasteries.

For years the Calendarist monks of that monastery have been shunned and boycotted by the more moderate Orthodox establishment as extremist. Its inmates have been known to hang banners over the walls calling the Pope an Antichrist. Calendarists from the mainland are banned from Athos.


Being naturally suspicious of western news reporting on such matters, but also aware that more people will read this report than otherwise, I wanted to try to find out from those knowledgeable about such matters here what might be the truth of this matter?

This was brought to my attention by two friends who know of my interest in Orthodoxy, and, as you might imagine, they were less than impressed. I said what I always say, which is that this is one side of the story - but I would be very grateful if I had the information to make a better response.

In Christ,

John

[Nina]

This was brought to my attention by two friends who know of my interest in Orthodoxy, and, as you might imagine, they were less than impressed.
In Christ,
John

Dear John,

I am not able to help with your question because I know nothing regarding the matters from the news you posted.

When you receive the help you are looking for here, I would very humbly suggest, that you should add to your reply for your friends this:

We, Orthodox people, have a duty to emulate the example of Saint Konstantine the Great, who said: "If I see a priest, or monk sinning, I will take off my royal mantel and cover him."

[John Charmley]

Dear Nina,

My friends did say that they were surprised that I did not give this reponse; I did not because I knew what they would say - which was that we Orthodox 'cover up' our misdeeds rather than confess them - a common allegation from Protestants. I don't want to confirm or conform to their stereotypes. I suspect the news story is very biased - they usually are - and that there is a much better response to be had.

That is why I would like to be able to make a response that confounds the stereotypes!

In Christ,

John

[Nina]

Dear Nina,

My friends did say that they were surprised that I did not give this reponse; I did not because I knew what they would say - which was that we Orthodox 'cover up' our misdeeds rather than confess them - a common allegation from Protestants. I don't want to confirm or conform to their stereotypes. I suspect the news story is very biased - they usually are - and that there is a much better response to be had.

That is why I would like to be able to make a response that confounds the stereotypes!

In Christ,

John

You are too nice! But in this world you can not please everyone. It is a rule of life (even in secular terms).

I did not say you should not make a worthy reply (and it is very noble of you to care so much). As you might notice above, I say that "When you receive the help you are looking for here, I would very humbly suggest, that you should add to your reply for your friends this:"

Also, please notice the difference of what Saint Konstantine says and of what you say. He says "cover him" whereas you (explaining the stereotype) say "we Orthodox 'cover up' our". It is not ours, it is theirs, that Saint Konstantine refers to. Personally, nothing or none can deter me from following good advise that I appreciate and value, especially that of a Saint.

If we speak about us covering our mistakes: who is the human that can boast for not covering up their own fault or mistake? We are all children of Adam and Eve.

However, I have mentioned in my original post, that mine, is a humble suggestion. When you say "I don't want to confirm or conform to their stereotypes", please know that a humble suggestion can be discarded anytime because of its nature: humble. Or as some of my friends would say: "Everything is cool!"

[John Charmley]

Dear Nina,

Many thanks.

The media, alas, are so quick to pick on things which show us in a bad light. I feel sure that there is far more to this.

But after the experience in other Churches where hierarchs have thrown a cloak over clerical misdeeds, the media is understandably alert to this as a method of 'dealing' with problems, and it is important to show that in the Orthodox Church we are true disciples of Him whom we worship, and that we hold ourselves to His standards. The judgements of this world do not interest us - when we know we are acting as He would have us act.

In Christ,

John

[Nina]

Dear Nina,

Many thanks.

The media, alas, are so quick to pick on things which show us in a bad light. I feel sure that there is far more to this.

But after the experience in other Churches where hierarchs have thrown a cloak over clerical misdeeds, the media is understandably alert to this as a method of 'dealing' with problems, and it is important to show that in the Orthodox Church we are true disciples of Him whom we worship, and that we hold ourselves to His standards. The judgements of this world do not interest us - when we know we are acting as He would have us act.

In Christ,

John

I was not talking about the media. St. Konstantine the Great was a true disciple of Christ. Saints set the pattern for us to act "as He would have us act".

P.S Didn't Christ Himself set the paradigm, with "Let the one without sin cast the first stone."?

[John Charmley]

Dear Nina,

Indeed He did; but expecting our media to understand that is too much, alas.

My only concern is that such reports do little but spread the stereotype; it may, of course, be that sub specie aeternitatis, none of this matters; but how rarely can we take that view in this world.

In Christ,

John

[Kosta]

Dear Brothers and Sisters in Christ,

Today's (18 May 2007) London Times http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article1805641.ece
carries this report


Being naturally suspicious of western news reporting on such matters, but also aware that more people will read this report than otherwise, I wanted to try to find out from those knowledgeable about such matters here what might be the truth of this matter?

This was brought to my attention by two friends who know of my interest in Orthodoxy, and, as you might imagine, they were less than impressed. I said what I always say, which is that this is one side of the story - but I would be very grateful if I had the information to make a better response.

In Christ,

John


Thats one horrible piece of journalism. Mt. Athos follows the old calendar exclusively. I have never heard of old calendarists being called simply "Calendarists".

Aside from the journalist refering to the majority of the world's Orthodox laity "Calendarists" since most follow the Church Calendar ,this is the first time i've heard of monks being called "inmates".
I'm not sure what kind of journalistic credentials this writer has, but he's definately bashing and he knows nothing about Esphigmenou or Mt Athos or Orthodoxy. For instance he writes that the old calendarists celebrate Christmas in Jan 6 together with the russians and serbs but follow the new calendar when celebrating Easter!!!!!!!! (scroll down to paragraph 10) Orthodox Pascha uses the old calendar.
The article also claims that the greek state view the old calendarists as "illegal", in actuality the government has recognized them as valid and truly Orthodox years ago.

True, Esphigmenou uses the old calendar as do the other monasterys, They do not commemorate the E.P. and havent since 1972, so its one monastery that old calendarists are united with.

The police tried to stop the old calendarist pilgrims from reaching Esphigmenou. This was planned by the police and those who want to oust these monks in advance. Esphigmenou always attracts a large number of pilgrims on Ascension Day since this monastery is dedicated to the Feast of the Ascension.
This shows the Truth of Orthodoxy, that theres always persecution and unlike western christianity, the laity are entrusted with preserving the Faith, not simply "obey" and be complacent.

[John Charmley]

Dear Kosta,

Thank you very much. It did, indeed, strike me as taking a very definite 'view' on what it purported to be reporting, and, like other pieces from the same source, is clearly designed to play to a certain image of the Orthodox as, effectively, a Christian version of the Taliban.

Those more spiritually evolved than myself can, perhaps, pass this off as one of those things that is bound to happen in this world, and indeed, had it not been for the reaction of two of my friends, I might myself have thought 'well, who takes any notice of such things?' So I am very grateful for your comments, which at least allow me to put some substance on my own suspicions. I know, I should rise above it all, but there are times when one just feels that one cannot!

In Christ,

John