Christmas pageants, Santa Claus, etc.

[Patrick Lee]

Still being a new convert, I have to ask how common it is to have a Christmas Pageant, a visit from Santa Claus (not even St. Nick), and all of the Christmas decorations up long before the feast of the Nativity? So here is a poll to see how bad it is. Also, can anyone advise on what approach I should take to addressing this? Prayer would be a good start, but should I approach the (new, like this is his second week) priest? Or better yet, should I just keep my mouth shut as I am just a new convert?

[Scott Pierson]

Thats a good question. One thing I've learned (or at least I'm starting to learn I'm very stubborn) is that when I see my Church or Priest do something I don't think is 100% correct its usually best to give the Priest the benefit of the doubt. Certainly if your priest starts telling you to sacrifice to baal or something of that nature then you need to speak up but having santa give presents to kids during a fast isn't a heresy nor is it the end of the world even if it might** not be proper according to the normal discipline of the Church. I've found that if something takes place that I'm uncomfortable with its good to simply ask a few questions in a non confrontational way about it " is it normal for Orthodox Churches to do such and such? Do the canons allow it?", etc. Most often I've found that I was wrong for feeling upset and even in the cases I thought I was still right It was best to just go along with the program because I'm not the Bishop and the priest as my spiritual father is responsible for those things not me. And it so embarrassing when you argue over something and then find out you are wrong later lol.

** on the other hand it may very well be proper I have no idea.

[Trudy]

Hi Jeff,

This is the first year St. Nicholas of Myra came to 'visit' our church. He gave out Christmas bags of little goodies to all the children after they sang the Feast Day hymn.

We also have a Yolka (Christmas Play). Since this is only my 3rd Nativity at my church, it appears the Yolka is held the Sunday prior to the week of Nativity. Thus our Yolka will be held December 17.

The reason our priest is doing this is because he is working towards building the parishioners into a 'family.' There have been clear factions he is trying to break down and this is one of the ways he is doing it.

Our priest has given the parish special dispensation for the fast, in that he wants us to observe it strictly on Wednesdays and Fridays, yet told us he would like us to try to maintain it every day to the best of our ability. He is much more strict for Lent.


Or better yet, should I just keep my mouth shut as I am just a new convert?
Since you asked, I am willing to stick my neck out to answer. Since you are a new convert (not sure how long - I count myself a new convert and have been Orthodox only 2 yrs.), AND especially since your priest is so new, I would suggest you sit back and pray for the dear man every single day and not say a word. Give him a chance to get a feel for the church family and figure out who the power players are.

Being a former minister's wife, I can give you a hint about something. In general, the first three people who reach out to the minister to be best bud's are generally those who are power players in the church. (Please note I have said "generally" NOT "always.") I have found this to be true in my own personal experience in both churchs my husband served in, and in every single place of employment for both my husband and I. It is generally the fourth person and on, that ends up being a supporter/ally/friend, etc.

Stay in the background for a bit. Pray for him. In about 3 weeks go to him, introduce yourself, tell him you've been praying for him, and offer your services. Then in a couple weeks, ask him how he's doing. Trust me. He'll appreciate it.

Then when next Nativity Fast rolls around, support him in his implementation of tighter boundaries should he move in that direction. He'll appreciate it and he'll sure need it.

Hope this helps.

By your prayers,
Athanasia (Trudy)
(Former Baptist Minister's wife; now Orthodox)

[Patrick Lee]

Please, continue to stick your neck out. I've officially been Orthodox for a mere 6 months at this point. I've been studying Orthodoxy for about 12 years (I'm a little bit hard headed).

Like your advice. I've not had a time to do more than greet the priest yet (he is actually really great - as is our new priest emeritus who just retired).

[Patrick Lee]

Thats a good question. One thing I've learned (or at least I'm starting to learn I'm very stubborn) is that when I see my Church or Priest do something I don't think is 100% correct its usually best to give the Priest the benefit of the doubt. Certainly if your priest starts telling you to sacrifice to baal or something of that nature then you need to speak up but having santa give presents to kids during a fast isn't a heresy nor is it the end of the world even if it might** not be proper according to the normal discipline of the Church. I've found that if something takes place that I'm uncomfortable with its good to simply ask a few questions in a non confrontational way about it " is it normal for Orthodox Churches to do such and such? Do the canons allow it?", etc. Most often I've found that I was wrong for feeling upset and even in the cases I thought I was still right It was best to just go along with the program because I'm not the Bishop and the priest as my spiritual father is responsible for those things not me. And it so embarrassing when you argue over something and then find out you are wrong later lol.

** on the other hand it may very well be proper I have no idea.


I agree - I don't think its heretical. Whether or not its spiritually healthy is another question, and yes, I'm not really at a point where I should be passing judgement on such things for my priest.

[Rebecca Gabl]

Well, having a party during the fast certainly limits food choices...Also, it just seems less appropriate to be festive about a feast that hasn't arrived yet. My parish has a yolka and a "ball" every year shortly after Christmas. Speaking of which, what do y'all think of office Christmas, excuse me, holiday parties?

[Robert Hegwood]

Our parish had a St. Nicholas Day party with a visit from "St. Nicholas of Myra" for the children. Personally while I don't mind the St. Nicholas day party at all...I'm uncomfortable with people pretending to be Saints. If I recall correctly when was first becoming Orthodox several years ago I was informed that Orthodoxy did look kindly on actors in the role of Christ, Saints, Clergy, or monastics. If you are not a priest or bishop for real, the vestments of that office are not to be worn. The image of an actor as Christ is not that of Christ such as we have in our icons which are rooted to His historial likeness...plus we Have Him really present in and among us during the Holy Eucharist. So that means movies or plays about the life of Christ are out.

It is interesting to note that the priest in My Big Fat Greek Wedding really is a priest.

Anyway I don't know if I buy the hardline of this view...but it does make a great deal of sense to me. To this day I just don't want to see things like "The Passion of the Christ" or "the Nativity" anymore. That said, I know others do find something beneficial there so I don't feel right insisting on them alignning with my early reading.

So I dont' know the correct answer, but as I said the view that Christ, the Clergy and the Saints should not be the stuff of play acting makes sense to me.

[Rebecca Gabl]

Interestingly enough, I just watched Ben Hur last weekend. I like the way Christ is portrayed. The audience never hears Him speak or sees His face. We just see the profound influence He has on people. I thought it was very tastefully done, myself.

[Trudy]

If I recall correctly when was first becoming Orthodox several years ago I was informed that Orthodoxy did look kindly on actors in the role of Christ, Saints, Clergy, or monastics.

This is very interesting. I never heard this but that doesn't mean very much! I've read several posts by various priests who have held/attended halloween parties and children dressed as Biblical characters and Saints.

Thanks for sharing this.

Athanasia

[Irene]

I think that the Orthodox Youth Camp which is held (here in Aus) over the western Christmas period might have been put on (at that particular time) to help young people, who's friends are in full party mode, to stick to the fast.

(When I was a protestant I use to always get quite depressed the day after Christmas, this never happens anymore.)

As for Halloween I have told children that knock on our door that we don't celebrate but to come back at Easter and I will give them Easter eggs.

PS, I love Ben Hur for the same reason as Rebecca, Christ is also portrayed like this in old films such as "The Robe" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Robe_%28film%29)

[Paul Cowan]

Each Nativity party in our parish, our priest has someone dress up as St. Nicholas of Myra and gives the children a scroll with a written blessing and also a verbal blessing to each of them.

I don't see anything wrong with this as it does not promote santa claus nor are any gifts passed out. It is stressed as a type of reenactment of the life of St. Nicholas as he was a generous giver of God's blessings.

All the kids try to figure out who is playing the "part". I did it 4 years ago and it was humbling to have the little kids come up to you and walk away with a scrolled prayer from the priest and knowing there is more to the Nativity season than presents. I also had a huge personal "experience" for the Saint. I felt drawn to him as a very close friend of God. It's hard to explain. I wanted to be more like him.

Yours,
Paul

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

In our parish we have what is called Yol'ka, which is very traditional in Russian parishes. In our parish this occurs the Sunday after Nativity.

It consists of songs and skits by the children and then the big event of course is Dyed Moroz - in our parish over the years he's definitely assimilated and come to resemble Santa Claus- arriving with presents for the children.

This is preceded by a festal meal.

As to celebrations during the Fast; for us St Barbara's day is when we have a big meal after the Liturgy as this is our sisterhood's day. The meal though is fish 'kotletti' (little burger shaped thingies).


In our parish the fast is never broken for any reason even when we have funeral meals where much of the family is non-Orthodox. We find that if you present things in a positive way even the non-Orthodox basically accept this.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Olga]

For those who are wondering: Dyed Moroz means Father Frost. And he does seem to have transmogrified in recent years from a tall, reedy character with a long, thin pointed beard to look more like the familiar portly gent in red.

And I might add to Fr Raphael's comment on the food offered after funerals: In my experience of both Slavic and Greek custom, the food prepared on such occasions is lenten anyway, irrespective of what time of the year it is. Common dishes include fish, salad, vegetables cooked simply, a little wine, etc.

[Trudy]

In our parish we have what is called Yol'ka, which is very traditional in Russian parishes. In our parish this occurs the Sunday after Nativity.

Oh, I LOVE this idea!

~Athanasia~

[Father David Moser]

For those who are wondering: Dyed Moroz means Father Frost.

Only the Russians would call Santa Clause "Dead Morose"

Fr David Moser

[Fr Aaron Warwick]

The Nativity Fast is much less rigorous than fasts such as Great Lent. In fact, there are many important feast days that always fall within the fast. Consequently, there is reason for celebration even during the fasting season. I personally like for parish Christmas parties to be after the feast since that is technically the appropriate time to celebrate. Nonetheless, given the culture we are in, there are a lot of worse things a parish could do than have a Christmas party before Christmas.

Regarding office holiday parties, I think they are great. It is a good time of year to be working in an office because not much gets done and people are generally more pleasant and friendly to be around. Many people are offended by the use of the word "holiday" versus "Christmas." Since I have become Orthodox my view on this has changed. Frankly, being that we Orthodox do so many "weird" things from the perspective of the non-Orthodox, I am thankful that people today are rather tolerant and accepting of different traditions and customs.

Aaron

[Nicolaj]

As an orthodox still waiting for Nativity to come, I like to say that fasting isn't that bad by now. In the beginning I have had my hard times by fasting as preparing for what ever to come. And we do a lot of fasting in the orthodox church. Time and growing understanding makes it more clear to see what we are doing, and for what purpose. And by now I can say I like it, while it is truly helping me to see more clear.
Feasts in this time of year, at the job or at the school of the children, well they are facts. And handling the facts is something an orthodox Christian should be able to do. I see it is always possible for me to have an vegetarian something to eat etc.
And preparing this way makes it even more enjoyable to have an feast like Nativity coming up!