Reincarnation and John the Baptist

[Byron Jack Gaist]

Dear All,

It has been suggested to me by a friend that when Jesus says John the Baptist is "Elijah who was to come" (Matt 11:13-14) and the disciples later also understand that Jesus is referring to John when he says "Elijah has come" (Matt 17:10-13), this is evidence for reincarnation in the New Testament. Of course, John himself denies he is Elijah in John 1:21. But I'm still left wondering what all this talk concerning John and Elijah is about, and what Jesus did mean in Matt 11:13-14. Can anyone shed some light on this?

In Christ
Byron

[Rebecca Gabl]

I know a Baptist who said the exact same thing! There's a place, I think in the Gospel of John, where Jesus says, "He is not Elijah."

[Herman Blaydoe]

I think it sad that the knowledge of rhetoric has been lost by society at large, at least, the English-speaking part of it. Middle Eastern speech uses it extensively. You simply cannot take some things at face value or literally, because it was not MEANT to be literal. Christ did not mean for us to literally cut off our hands or pluck out our eyes. When He says "John is Elijah who is to come" He is speaking in TYPES. John fills the ROLE of Elijah to come, but is not literally Elijah reincarnated.

[Peter Farrington]

Dear Herman,

I agree with you entirely. But I have not only found evangelicals sometimes unable to correctly distinguish between different types of language, but Orthodox also.

Indeed it seems to me that it is often found in modern Orthodoxy that poetry is misinterpreted as dogma. I think it is perhaps related to that psychology of some converts, and I am always trying to watch myself, which requires absolutes and certainties.

Peter

[Ana Botez]

Dear all,

Obviously, the Orthodox Church does not teach reincarnation and to interpret the Holy Scriptures in such a way is wrong.

Elder Cleopa Ilie talked about this, as recorded in one of his books:

http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/ec_magic_occultism.aspx

Briefly, St. John the Baptist came with the spirit of Elias, i.e. with his zeal to confess God through prophecy and ascesis.

Ana

[Theophrastus]

Granted, I'm not Orthodox. Having said that, what would be the "harm" (and by "harm", I mean, "negative repercussions psychologically or noetically") if someone did interpret the verses in question as indicating "reincarnation" of one kind or another? Does the entertaining of "reincarnation" as a possibility violate the core commandments to love God and love your neighbor?

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Granted, I'm not Orthodox. Having said that, what would be the "harm" (and by "harm", I mean, "negative repercussions psychologically or noetically") if someone did interpret the verses in question as indicating "reincarnation" of one kind or another? Does the entertaining of "reincarnation" as a possibility violate the core commandments to love God and love your neighbor?

In most Patristic commentary on reincarnation the main criticism is that it implies that we are not ultimately held responsible for our actions.

This is quite an insight if you think about it since reincarnation is usually described as a kind of cosmic justice.

I think the Fathers' point is of the way in which this one temporal life with its life-span is providentially allowed by God as the chief personal means of interacting with the redemption offered to us by Christ. To the Fathers according to this way of thinking, to act irresponsibly in regards to this one life offered us, or to accept any teaching implying this, would be a fundamental betrayal of what God offers us.

In Orthodox thought there is something very special about this one temporal life which God offers us. Somehow the fact that it is one and unrepeated reveals God's love for us.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Herman Blaydoe]

what would be the "harm" (and by "harm", I mean, "negative repercussions psychologically or noetically") if someone did interpret the verses in question as indicating "reincarnation" of one kind or another?I would think great harm indeed. We don't get a "do-over" life, we need to repent in THIS life, not wait for the next one. If this causes people to miss their salvation, that is certainly a "negative repercussion", don't you think?

[Byron Jack Gaist]

I like what Fr Raphael and Herman have written regarding taking responsibility for working out our salvation "in fear and trembling" in this life, and no other. However, I should point out that, as Fr Raphael indicates by saying
reincarnation is usually described as a kind of cosmic justice.
I think reincarnation is viewed within the cosmology of the Oriental religions (Hinduism, Buddhism etc) as offering a stern caution to the sinful - so that if one doesn't pursue a path towards enlightenment, moksha, nirvana etc., one may be reincarnated as a lesser being, such as an animal or insect. As Fr Raphael has suggested, it may be the special contribution of the Fathers to this debate to underline the paradox that, despite the enjoinder to enlightened living, the idea of reincarnation lends itself to fatalism ("it's my karma from a previous existence") and laxity ("I'll get it right next time around"). It is perhaps also fair to say here that the doctrine concerning sin in Christianity hasn't stopped Christians from being fatalistic or lax either, since the fact that we may draw false conclusions from a teaching doesn't say anything about it's ultimate validity.

Regarding the ability to discern between which sayings of Jesus are literal and which are metaphorical, I'm glad we have the Holy Tradition to help us tell the difference! If we relied entirely on our gut-feeling about what the Lord meant, presumably this would lead to prelest, and would not be an Orthodox way to read the Scriptures anyway. I would like to hear more, however, from anyone who knows what the "type" of Elijah is - is it only
his zeal to confess God through prophecy and ascesis as Ana Botez suggests, or is there a special connection between John the Baptist and the figure who stands to our Lord's right in the icon of the Transfiguration?

In Christ
Byron

[Olga]

Looking at the icon of the Transfiguration, Elijah (old white haired, long white beard) is on the left of Christ, Moses (younger man, shorter beard, brown hair) is on the right.

There are many meanings of the appearance of Prophets Elijah and Moses in the events of the Transfiguration. A couple:

Elijah and Moses represent the Law and the Prophets, the prefiguration of the incarnation and earthly mission of Christ, who now appears in His humanity and a glimpse of His divinity on Mt Tabor. These prophets, possibly more than any others, expressed best what was to be the fulfilment of God the Father's plan for mankind's salvation in the person and mission of the Son and Word of God.

Elijah was taken bodily into heaven in the fiery chariot, Moses died here on earth as we all do and his body was buried - God is the God of both the living and the dead.

Consider also the icon of the Resurrection: on one side of the risen Christ are the prophets, patriarchs and other OT figures, including John the Baptist; on the other side are the people who have come to know God Incarnate, both during His earthly life, and beyond, i.e. the baptised faithful.

A look through the canon and stikhera of the vigil of the Transfiguration will unearth even more food for thought.

[Byron Jack Gaist]

Thank you Olga, for that information. I don't mean to be petty, but looking at icons of the Transfiguration, Elijah is as far as I can tell standing to the right of Christ, not the left, i.e. it is the left as seen from the viewer's perspective, but next to the right hand of the Lord.

Regarding Elijah as representing all the prophets, this very interesting. Also his bodily assumption into heaven is presumably a prefiguration of the Assumption. But I was referring in my post to Herman writing
When He says "John is Elijah who is to come" He is speaking in TYPES. John fills the ROLE of Elijah to come, but is not literally Elijah reincarnated.This has led me to wonder whether Elijah has a more precise role, and St John the Baptist is in some way continuing or taking the role forward.

Just a few thoughts...

In Christ
Byron

[Maria Mahoney]

I am in debt to my Priest for explaining this to me:

John the Baptist is called the First Fore-runner of Christ ... Elijah is called the Second Fore-runner of Christ ... Although Elijah came first, he is to come again as the Second Fore-runner of Christ in the Second Coming! Not a re-incarnated Elijsh (because he is still living), but as the original Elijah that was taken up in the fiery chariot.

In Christ,
Maria

[Byron Jack Gaist]

Dear Maria,

Thanks for taking this thread up again, and shedding some light on the issue. It's quite a 'wild' thought if you think about it, that Elijah will return as forerunner to the Second Coming. How will we know when this has happened? Will we not put the person claiming to be Elijah in a psychiatric asylum, or at least offer him pills and 'community care'?! I'm sure God will have His own way of surprising us, though.

In Christ
Byron

[Kusanagi]

Dear Maria,

Thanks for taking this thread up again, and shedding some light on the issue. It's quite a 'wild' thought if you think about it, that Elijah will return as forerunner to the Second Coming. How will we know when this has happened? Will we not put the person claiming to be Elijah in a psychiatric asylum, or at least offer him pills and 'community care'?! I'm sure God will have His own way of surprising us, though.

In Christ
Byron

A Holy Father of Cyprus told my friend that we as Christians should spend less time worrying about the future epsecially what happens in the book of revelation but to focus more on our own salvation.

[Maria Mahoney]

Dear Byron,

I don't think I'd want to mess with him ... remember what happened to the priests of baal?

1Kings 18:30-40

"30And Elijah said unto all the people, Come near unto me. And all the people came near unto him. And he repaired the altar of the LORD that was broken down.

31And Elijah took twelve stones, according to the number of the tribes of the sons of Jacob, unto whom the word of the LORD came, saying, Israel shall be thy name:

32And with the stones he built an altar in the name of the LORD: and he made a trench about the altar, as great as would contain two measures of seed.

33And he put the wood in order, and cut the bullock in pieces, and laid him on the wood, and said, Fill four barrels with water, and pour it on the burnt sacrifice, and on the wood.

34And he said, Do it the second time. And they did it the second time. And he said, Do it the third time. And they did it the third time.

35And the water ran round about the altar; and he filled the trench also with water.

36And it came to pass at the time of the offering of the evening sacrifice, that Elijah the prophet came near, and said, LORD God of Abraham, Isaac, and of Israel, let it be known this day that thou art God in Israel, and that I am thy servant, and that I have done all these things at thy word.

37Hear me, O LORD, hear me, that this people may know that thou art the LORD God, and that thou hast turned their heart back again.

38Then the fire of the LORD fell, and consumed the burnt sacrifice, and the wood, and the stones, and the dust, and licked up the water that was in the trench.

39And when all the people saw it, they fell on their faces: and they said, The LORD, he is the God; the LORD, he is the God.

40And Elijah said unto them, Take the prophets of Baal; let not one of them escape. And they took them: and Elijah brought them down to the brook Kishon, and slew them there."


Although, I guess according to Revelations he will be martyred in Jerusalem.
But I don't think it will be hard to tell who he is.

Revelation 11

"1And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

2But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

3And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

4These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

5And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

6These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

7And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

8And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

9And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

10And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

11And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

12And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

13And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

14The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

15And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

16And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,

17Saying, We give thee thanks, O LORD God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

18And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

19And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail."

In Christ,
Maria

[Nina]

Answers about Holy Prophet Elias (http://www.orthodox.net/questions/elias_1-a.html)

"Just as the Holy Baptizer of Christ, John, heralded the first coming of Christ, when He came meekly, as a servant, so the glorious Elias will herald the second coming of Christ, when He will come in al power and majesty, as a King, swiftly, from the Mount of Olives. The church knows that both Enoch and Elias will come back to the earth in it's very last days, and preach Christ. They will be slain by the antichrist, and lay in the streets for three days, after which the Lord will come and usher in the New, unwaning age."

[Byron Jack Gaist]

Thank you Maria and Nina, for this news. I have stayed away from the Book of Revelation as being very complicated, and for the reasons kusanagi suggests above. When read through the eyes of the ordinary believer, I must say it is also both a very scary and reassuring book. I suspect it's a text which is more accessible to those who have advanced some way in the faith, who are more illumined in understanding it.

At least now I know better what to reply when someone suggests Elijah is a 'reincarnation' of John the Baptist (or vice versa). Namely, they are two entirely separate figures, but their roles in the destiny of the world have important similarities.

In Christ
Byron

[Nina]

At least now I know better what to reply when someone suggests Elijah is a 'reincarnation' of John the Baptist (or vice versa). Namely, they are two entirely separate figures, but their roles in the destiny of the world have important similarities.
In Christ
Byron

Totally so!

We do not believe in reincarnation.

[Andrew]

Answers about Holy Prophet Elias (http://www.orthodox.net/questions/elias_1-a.html)

"Just as the Holy Baptizer of Christ, John, heralded the first coming of Christ, when He came meekly, as a servant, so the glorious Elias will herald the second coming of Christ, when He will come in al power and majesty, as a King, swiftly, from the Mount of Olives. The church knows that both Enoch and Elias will come back to the earth in it's very last days, and preach Christ. They will be slain by the antichrist, and lay in the streets for three days, after which the Lord will come and usher in the New, unwaning age."






There are also teachings from the Elders that other saints like Saint Elijah will return to preach repentance and a return to Christ. Saint Seraphim is one example. Does anyone know any other saints who are supposed to come back?

[Kusanagi]

There are also teachings from the Elders that other saints like Saint Elijah will return to preach repentance and a return to Christ. Saint Seraphim is one example. Does anyone know any other saints who are supposed to come back?

St John the Theologian.

[Michael Stickles]

There are also teachings from the Elders that other saints like Saint Elijah will return to preach repentance and a return to Christ. Saint Seraphim is one example. Does anyone know any other saints who are supposed to come back?

St. John the Apostle. I have read two traditions - one, that he will return to preach at the end and will be killed (like Enoch and Elijah) by the Antichrist; the other, that he will be (or even has been) raised in an incorrupt body to rule over the church before the end of history. The former was attributed to Patriarch Anthimus and St. Hippolytus; the latter attributed to Bishop Stephan (Nikitin) and Optina Elder Nectarius. I haven't verified the attributions, though.

In Christ,
Mike

[Kosta]

Dear All,

It has been suggested to me by a friend that when Jesus says John the Baptist is "Elijah who was to come" (Matt 11:13-14) and the disciples later also understand that Jesus is referring to John when he says "Elijah has come" (Matt 17:10-13), this is evidence for reincarnation in the New Testament. Of course, John himself denies he is Elijah in John 1:21. But I'm still left wondering what all this talk concerning John and Elijah is about, and what Jesus did mean in Matt 11:13-14. Can anyone shed some light on this?

In Christ
Byron


Elijah was not in reincarnated into John the Baptist. If we hypothetically believed in reincarnation this example would make no sense, since Elijah never died and was taken up to heaven body and soul. Reincarnation only works when you first put off your body.

As a previous poster said he came in the spirit and power of Elijah (Lk 1.17). Secondly Orthodoxy does indeed believe Elijah will come again as revealed by the two witnesses in Revelation .

And finally reincarnation was completely rejected when the fifth council condemned Origen's notion on the pre-existence of souls as heresy.

[Kris]

St. John the Apostle. I have read two traditions - one, that he will return to preach at the end and will be killed (like Enoch and Elijah) by the Antichrist; the other, that he will be (or even has been) raised in an incorrupt body to rule over the church before the end of history. The former was attributed to Patriarch Anthimus and St. Hippolytus; the latter attributed to Bishop Stephan (Nikitin) and Optina Elder Nectarius. I haven't verified the attributions, though.


When I was first told about the assumption of St. John - i.e. that his body was not found - I was led to believe this took place in a similar manner to Enoch and Elias, giving credance to the first tradition you cite.

The Synaxarion entry, however, clearly speaks of him dying prior to his assumption which would make the latter seem more plausable.

[Theophrastus]

And finally reincarnation was completely rejected when the fifth council condemned Origen's notion on the pre-existence of souls as heresy.

Well, not completely rejected, since reincarnation can take many different forms, not all of them involving the pre-existence of the soul.

[Stuart Dunn]

The book Reincarnation in Christianity, by the theosophist Geddes MacGregor (1978) asserted that Origen believed in reincarnation. MacGregor is convinced that Origen believed in and taught about reincarnation but that his texts written about the subject have been destroyed. He admits that there is no extant proof for that position. The allegation was also repeated by Shirley MacLaine in her book Out On a Limb.
There is, however, no evidence that Origen believed in reincarnation. He wrote about the Greeks' transmigration of the soul, with which he did not agree.[23] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origen#cite_note-22#cite_note-22) This can be confirmed from the existent writings of Origen. He was cognizant of the concept of transmigration (metensomatosis transformation, and loses what it once was, the human soul will not be what it was[3] (http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Ante-Nicene_Fathers/Volume_III/Apologetic/A_Treatise_on_the_Soul/Chapter_XXXII) ) from Greek philosophy, but it is repeatedly stated that this concept is no part of the Christian teaching or scripture. In his Comment on the Gospel of Matthew, which stems from a sixth century Latin translation, it is written: "In this place [when Jesus said Elijah was come and referred to John the Baptist] it does not appear to me that by Elijah the soul is spoken of, lest I fall into the doctrine of transmigration, which is foreign to the Church of God, and not handed down by the apostles, nor anywhere set forth in the scriptures" (ibid., 13:1:46–53 [24] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origen#cite_note-23#cite_note-23)).

[Theophrastus]

There is, however, no evidence that Origen believed in reincarnation. He wrote about the Greeks' transmigration of the soul, with which he did not agree.[23] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origen#cite_note-22#cite_note-22) This can be confirmed from the existent writings of Origen. He was cognizant of the concept of transmigration (metensomatosis transformation, and loses what it once was, the human soul will not be what it was[3] (http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Ante-Nicene_Fathers/Volume_III/Apologetic/A_Treatise_on_the_Soul/Chapter_XXXII) ) from Greek philosophy, but it is repeatedly stated that this concept is no part of the Christian teaching or scripture. In his Comment on the Gospel of Matthew, which stems from a sixth century Latin translation, it is written: "In this place [when Jesus said Elijah was come and referred to John the Baptist] it does not appear to me that by Elijah the soul is spoken of, lest I fall into the doctrine of transmigration, which is foreign to the Church of God, and not handed down by the apostles, nor anywhere set forth in the scriptures" (ibid., 13:1:46–53 [24] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origen#cite_note-23#cite_note-23)).

There are many different forms of "reincarnation", which simply means "re-entering a body", because there are many different ideas of what a "body" means.

Origen did believe (http://www.iep.utm.edu/o/origen.htm#SH3b) that God created souls with free will, and that those souls "fell" from the realm of God's near-presence to realms further away from God's near-presence, and that as they "fell", the souls adopted various subtle/spiritual bodies, and that finally the souls adopted a physical (human) body.

Where Origen differed from the Greeks was that Origen did not teach that (1) a soul, once in a physical (human) body, could die and be reborn as an animal, nor did he teach that (2) a soul, once in a physical (human) body, could die and be reborn into another physical (human) body. Instead, it seems that Origen taught that after a soul died from a physical (human) body, that soul again would enter into various subtle/spiritual bodies.

So, Origen denied some "reincarnational" ideas, but he clearly taught reincarnation in terms of subtle/spiritual bodies.

In fact, "reincarnation" -- simply meaning "re-entrance into a body" -- is simply another term for "resurrection". Christianity should have no problem with the idea of "reincarnation" per se, just with certain kinds of reincarnation ideas.

[Matthew Namee]

In fact, "reincarnation" -- simply meaning "re-entrance into a body" -- is simply another term for "resurrection". Christianity should have no problem with the idea of "reincarnation" per se, just with certain kinds of reincarnation ideas.
Obviously, when almost anyone uses the term "reincarnation," they are referring to the common understanding of the term. "Pedophile" simply means "one who loves children," but it has taken on the meaning "one who molests children." Words are symbols: the word "reincarnation" now symbolizes a belief which is utterly foreign to Orthodoxy, and as a result, it would be dangerous to say, "Orthodoxy believes in reincarnation," even if you only mean the literal definition of the word.

[Theophrastus]

Obviously....it would be dangerous to say, "Orthodoxy believes in reincarnation," even if you only mean the literal definition of the word.

Indeed, it would be dangerous.