Sins God allows?

[Andreas Moran]

Dear All,

I have a question which arises from a discussion my wife and I were having yesterday. A certain man is a devout Orthodox Christian. He appears to all to be faithful and kind. He has, however, an habitual sin into which he falls from time to time. He hates his sin but there are times when he cannot resist it. He knows exactly what he should do; he has heard all the advice. He prays hard for the temptation to be taken away. But over time, nothing helps. He fears for his soul's salvation, though grace does not entirely desert him.

There may be two responses. First, God has nothing to do with sin, and our character must continue to struggle harder and pray. He may think he cannot struggle harder but he could.

The second is that God could (of course) take the temptation away but allows it to remain so as to keep our character humble.

What do you think of these possible responses? May there be others?

In Christ,

Andreas.

[Peter Farrington]

Dear Andreas

I think that in my own sinfulness I know that God will not take my temptation away. Indeed there is great benefit for me in knowing my weaknesses. I am prevented from judging others too harshly, like Abba Moses I am aware that while I go to judge another my own sins are pouring out behind me.

When God leaves us to face temptation we can surely take several things as encouragements.

i. He will not allow us to be tempted beyond what we can bear.

ii. He will always provide a way of escape.

iii. He desires us to grow and mature through suffering temptation.

iv. When we sin we can always get up, repent, and try again through God's grace.

v. It is perhaps better for us to bear with our failures in humility than to fall into pride by having temptation withdrawn from us.

For myself, and I can only speak for myself, it is enough to take one day at a time. When I have decided that I will be perfect for 100 days, or the length of the Fast, or whatever, I am always prey to either pride or despair, a sense of success or of failure. I have had to be taught to live for this day and this hour. Will I sin - now - not later, not tomorrow.

I have also found it much more helpful for me to try and abandon myself to the grace of God, and to dwelling in His presence, than to grit my teeth and force myself to be holy. And interestingly enough this is what I find also in the fathers on prayer. Only the heroes can stand up to temptation head on. For a weedy guy like me it is better to trust God, enjoy Him more, try and be with Him and let His presence be much more important and fulfilling than the ideas the temptation puts in my way.

If you knew me you would know the fantasy life I live of being a Syriac scholar, or a serious writer on Christology, yet when the washing up needs doing I wonder what is more important? I have had to learn to abandon my dreams and leave them in God's hands. What matters is doing the right thing right now. Finding enjoyment in pleasing others rather than myself. It's tough. I prefer in many ways to be surrounded by important books in ancient languages. But it is not the way I will be saved. I am finding my salvation in the dishes. Still very hard, but I recall the monk who was so obedient that when he was called he left even the single letter of the alphabet he was writing unfinished.

Peter

[Andrew]

My spiritual father has always told me that falls are a result of pride, and that God allows us to fall to humble us. If we didn't fall into sins quite visible to our own eyes, we might puff ourselves up to even greater amounts of satanic pride.

[Tanya Hoadley]

Dear Andreas,

I just happened to be re-reading the story of St Mary of Egypt on this site. One of the things that strikes me is that she was ever mindful of the danger of her passions. In fact, she expressed fear that by relating her story they might be re-kindled.

She was ever diligant in her prayers, fasting and repentence.

It is worth reading again and again. Perhaps this person could ask for prayers of intercession from St Mary of Egypt.

In Christ,
Tanya

[Andreas Moran]

Dear brothers and sisters in Christ Peter, Andrew and Tanya,

Thank you for your responses which are very helpful. The point arose this way. Last Wednesday, my wife, Lydia, went with her parents to a small 'art' cinema located within the Romanov Palace (near the Puskin Museum) in Moscow. The film she saw was a documentary about Grand Duke Konstantin Konstantinovich Romanov (died 1915). He was a wonderful man by all accounts: devout, a good husband and father (of nine children), philanthropic, and a talented writer. But he was tortured by an inclination to homosexual activity which he hated but fell into from time to time. Lydia thought this kept him humble (the second response).

I thought that if one substituted any given habitual sin for homosexual activity one could wear the cap if it fitted but feel consoled if one saw the problem in terms of the second response. But what if the first response really applied? Might it, and how would one cope with that?

In Christ,

Andreas.

[Peter Farrington]

Dearest to Christ, Andreas

For myself I think that both of the options you provide apply most of the time in my life.

I mean that I am both culpable when I fall into sin because we are never tempted beyond what we can bear, and also I do not despair because God is full of mercy and has allowed me another day in which to overcome and be obedient and it is He who tells us that we need not give way to temptation.

So it may be that I struggle under any number of besetting sins, but my sin is both something to grieve over and seek to repent about, and also, since repentance involves hope and a desire to change, my sin is something to believe that God will give me strength to resist today, even though I fell yesterday.

For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.

Is there not a true sense in which each day that God allows us is the day of salvation for us.

So perhaps we need to both accept responsibility for our sin, and yet also seek to repent wholeheartedly and be obedient this day and this hour, not setting ourselves with grand plans to be holy for the rest of our lives, because God wills us to be holy and will give us all that we need to be holy if we.

Peter

[John Charmley]

For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.

Is there not a true sense in which each day that God allows us is the day of salvation for us.

So perhaps we need to both accept responsibility for our sin, and yet also seek to repent wholeheartedly and be obedient this day and this hour, not setting ourselves with grand plans to be holy for the rest of our lives, because God wills us to be holy and will give us all that we need to be holy if we.

Peter

Dear Peter, Dear Andreas,

Much food for thought here. When you say, Peter, that ' He will not allow us to be tempted beyond what we can bear' you raise an important and complex issue.

Our own reaction to our sin can disable us. The feeling that one has sinned in such a way that one has broken one's contact with God is, I have come to suspect, another aspect of the sin of pride; how can one think that our God will not forgive us - if we truly repent? The answer, I fear, is often 'quite easily', especially in a Christian denomination without confession. There can be a sort of spiritual pride in supposing that what one has done, especially if it is an habitual sin, puts one beyond the pale - which can lead to the sin of despair - that feeling that there is no point even in repentance. That is one of the many reasons we sinners need the Church, and right worship, to show us that if we will but repent and put our faith in God, there is always a way back.

Of course, it is part of the nature of sin that we have to live with the consequences of what we have done, and with its effects upon others, but even as our sin has helped create problems, our repentance can be part of dealing with them. As John Newton wrote so many years ago:

Amazing grace! How sweet the sound
That saved a wretch like me!
I once was lost, but now am found;
Was blind, but now I see.


I too am the blind man who can say in the words of John 9:25


One thing I know: that though I was blind, now I see.


But how wilfully blind sin can make us, and how much we need His Grace - and His Church to light the way.


In Christ,


John

[Tanya Hoadley]

The second is that God could (of course) take the temptation away but allows it to remain so as to keep our character humble.


Dear Andreas,

Humility before God and man drove St. Mary into the dessert. She acknowledged herself as the worst of sinners. But did she simply remain humble or did something else occur in that dessert?

Her temptation persisted and so did her struggle. Through these struggles she received Holy Scripture from God, she existed on herbs found in the dessert and her true sustenance was the Word of God. She found refuge in the Theotokos.

When Father Zosimas found her in the dessert was she humble? Yes. But she had become so much more. She received gifts of the Holy Spirit in abundance and overflowing. She was a vessel that had emptied her self to be a living Temple of God. She even walked on water!

God calls us to be perfect in Him. I think of temptation as the "thorn in the flesh". The Lord said,"My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness"

St. Mary could have given up her struggle. To the Glory of God, she didn't.

God could have removed St. Mary's temptation with the first prayer of repentance. In His infinite love, wisdom and mercy, He didn't.


In Christ,
Tanya

[Peter Farrington]

Was there not also the monk who lived for many years with a debilitating illness which God healed, and then he was distraught because far from having been something which diminished his spiritual life, his struggle to deal with his manifest weakness become a creative force by the grace of God and the Holy Spirit.

Peter

[John Charmley]

Was there not also the monk who lived for many years with a debilitating illness which God healed, and then he was distraught because far from having been something which diminished his spiritual life, his struggle to deal with his manifest weakness become a creative force by the grace of God and the Holy Spirit.

Peter

Dear Peter,

A good example. As well as being a source of grief, a sense of sin can also be a powerful inducement to prayer and humility - and in that sense an inducement to humble oneself before God and acknowledge the need for His help - and that of His Church.

In the west in particular we are prone to arrogance, self-conceit and self-reliance, and knowing that we are prone to sin, or have sinned, can be a powerful corrective.

In Christ,

John

[Peter Farrington]

Hi John

And I wonder if having a proper sense of sinfulness, not a despairing one, teaches us to be more generous with others?

I know there is the sinfulness that covers its shame by being narrow and hard-hearted towards others who fall before temptations. And I think I have succumbed to that model in the past. But now God seems to be teaching me a greater degree of compassion, so that I really do love the sinner even while I hate the sin.

The murders of five prostitutes in the Ipswich area this past week seems to be a useful opportunity to sympathise with the families of young women who had fallen into various tribulations - that thank God I have not had to face. They were just young women trying to cope and failing, and I can see that drug addiction is an evil, and prostitution is not a means of dignifying women, but they were just women trying to cope and need sympathy, support and action on their behalf not easy condemnation.

This is another good use of reflection on our own weakness.

Peter

[John Charmley]

Hi John

.

The murders of five prostitutes in the Ipswich area this past week seems to be a useful opportunity to sympathise with the families of young women who had fallen into various tribulations - that thank God I have not had to face. They were just young women trying to cope and failing, and I can see that drug addiction is an evil, and prostitution is not a means of dignifying women, but they were just women trying to cope and need sympathy, support and action on their behalf not easy condemnation.

This is another good use of reflection on our own weakness.

Peter

Dear Peter,

Indeed, and a good point well made. Here, only 20 miles from Ipswich, there is a palpable sense of shock that in our rural community such evil should be on the loose. And yet, at the same time, the way in which people and the Church have reacted, is instructive and heartening. There has been no narrow-minded condemnation of these poor souls for their 'occupation', simply a Christian love for them as lost souls in need (as we all are) of redemption.

The Church service for the women, broadcast on local television, was a moving occasion, and the love and sympathy extended to the grieving families is an example of how Christians can behave, at their best.

So yes, I do think a sense of our own sinfulness can help prevent us from becoming too judgemental - and a good thing too.

I hope we will all be able to pray for the souls of these troubled young women.


In Christ


John

[Andreas Moran]

Dear John and Peter,

I join you in expressing sympathy for the murdered prostitutes. Colchester, of course, is very close to area in question. I too found the televised church service moving. Clearly, the rector of that church knew how to provide a place to go when for the ordinary folk of that area there seemed nowhere to go. I thought of all those 'harlot saints' we have from early times. I admire the man who has worked for years to help such young women and who knew these particular girls. It now transpires that one of girls was pregnant, an added tragedy. Is it not strange how victim and perpetrator are connected? For both, some aberration has led them to what they were and are: the girls, tragic victims in life and in death; for the perpetrator, heinous criminal.

In Christ,

Andreas.

[John Charmley]

Dear Andreas, Dear Peter,

Moving posts from you both.

I have noted in some of the more sober press coverage a note of surprise, followed by admiration, for the reaction of the Churches. It is sad that so much of the press seems to have expected the Churches to moralise about the occupation of the women, but wonderful that those expectations have been dashed, and instead of condemnation, the Churches have provided a marvellous example of how to hate the sin but embrace the sinner.

That people should have gone, automatically, to the local Church, is a sign that even in our very secular society, a Holy place draws to it the sorrowful and the grieving; may all who go there find what they need, and may the Risen Lord bring them His consolation.


In Christ,


John

[Andreas Moran]

Dear Peter and John - and anyone else reading this thread -

Some years ago, I phoned my dear old guide Bishop Eirenaios to tell him I was troubled by some sin, and he cried, 'I'm a sinner - you're a sinner - we're all sinners! Do not talk about "big" sins and "little" sins. What is any of us before the perfection of Christ? We do not compare ourselves with anyone except Him.' To compare is to judge.

The question which interests me is this. How free are we? We have free will with which to say 'no' to temptations. Yet our nature is fallen and we live in a fallen world. Adam and Eve had an incorrupt nature and lived in Paradise, yet they fell. (They had not been lied to before, and (I suppose) did not know what a lie was. So it's not surprising they were confused by the temptation of the serpent.) So what can be expected of us? Is there a serious point behind Oscar Wilde's quip that virtue is insufficient temptation? (Incidentally, have you read Wilde's 'De Profundis'?) If we cannot avoid sin and cannot say we have no sin in us, how free are we? Is our free will relative?

In Christ,

Andreas.

[John Charmley]

The question which interests me is this. How free are we? We have free will with which to say 'no' to temptations. Yet our nature is fallen and we live in a fallen world. Adam and Eve had an incorrupt nature and lived in Paradise, yet they fell. (They had not been lied to before, and (I suppose) did not know what a lie was. So it's not surprising they were confused by the temptation of the serpent.) So what can be expected of us? Is there a serious point behind Oscar Wilde's quip that virtue is insufficient temptation? (Incidentally, have you read Wilde's 'De Profundis'?) If we cannot avoid sin and cannot say we have no sin in us, how free are we? Is our free will relative?

In Christ,

Andreas.

Dear Andreas,

A complex question, which pushes us back toward some of the things written in the 'Original Sin' thread.

Even if we did not have the guidance of scipture and the Church, we might (as other religions have done) work our way towards the idea that there was, in our nature, a tendency to be attracted to things that are bad for us; the ubiquity of a manichean concept of human nature points this up. We can know, even before we know very much, that we are drawn to do things we somehow know we should not do.

If we had not free will, then this would be a docetist world, in which we were God's puppets; and despite the beliefs of some early heretics, this is not what God wants. The reason the Christological arguments burnt so hotly was their soteriological implications. Those Antiochenes who accused St. Cyril of having a defective view of the humanity of the Incarnate Lord had clearly not read his commentary on John 1:14:


For this reason specially I suppose it was that the holy Evangelist, indicating the creature specially from the part affected, says that the Word of God became Flesh, that so we might see at once the wound and the medicine, the sick and the Physician, that which had fallen unto death and Him Who raised it unto life, that which was overcome of corruption and Him Who chased away the corruption, that which was holden of death and Him Who is superior to death, that which was bereft of life and the Giver of life.

But he says not that the Word came into flesh but that It was made Flesh, that you may not suppose that He came to it as in the case of the Prophets or other of the Saints by participation, but did Himself become actual Flesh, that is man:


A propensity to sin is in us, but the Incarnate Lord was the physician who brought the medicine for our condition. However, of course, like all patients, we have the right to refuse treatment.

We do, I think, have free will, and that, thank God, includes the freedom to turn to Him who will raise us to life eternal. But, we also have the freedom to choose to go the other way - although, as the discussions in the thread on Origen show, there are some interesting views on this topic too.

Hope that helps a little.


In Christ,

John

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear Peter and John - and anyone else reading this thread -

Some years ago, I phoned my dear old guide Bishop Eirenaios to tell him I was troubled by some sin, and he cried, 'I'm a sinner - you're a sinner - we're all sinners! Do not talk about "big" sins and "little" sins. What is any of us before the perfection of Christ? We do not compare ourselves with anyone except Him.' To compare is to judge.

The question which interests me is this. How free are we? We have free will with which to say 'no' to temptations. Yet our nature is fallen and we live in a fallen world. Adam and Eve had an incorrupt nature and lived in Paradise, yet they fell. (They had not been lied to before, and (I suppose) did not know what a lie was. So it's not surprising they were confused by the temptation of the serpent.) So what can be expected of us? Is there a serious point behind Oscar Wilde's quip that virtue is insufficient temptation? (Incidentally, have you read Wilde's 'De Profundis'?) If we cannot avoid sin and cannot say we have no sin in us, how free are we? Is our free will relative?

In Christ,

Andreas.



For us the will is only free to the degree that it assumes what is according to its true nature- which is to rest in God.

The opposite is also true which is that sin is actually a slavery and lack of free will.

This relates to something we have discussed here at Monachos a number of times which is that free will for us does not mean the ability to 'do what we want'. Rather free will as stated by St Paul & the Frs is to live according to nature as God created us. Looked at from another angle our spiritual life is thus a struggle to free ourselves from the shackles of sin. And only in Christ through the ascetic method as our Church teaches this will we ever be free.

It took me a bit of time to understand Wilde's point. It seems at essence to be deeply worldly since it assumes that the impulse towards virtue is not real (perhaps it's not what he intended but ultimately this view is deeply nihilist) and that 'virtue' is only operative when temptation- which presumably is the more natural impulse- is not present.

Seen this way we can see the direct line from such 19th c views to our own time. What we can say is that at that point man's true nature was being lost sight of and so from this what freedom means. Our predicament is that we have lost sight of what we really are. In its place we have created an idol of falseness & the cultivation of this has now reached the stage of a new religion to replace Christianity.

A lot can be said about this. But without the ascetic method as the Church describes this we will not find what freedom means. "Take My yoke upon you" as Christ said.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Andreas Moran]

Dear John and Fr Raphael,

Thank you for taking the trouble to respond so carefully and helpfully. I must look at some of the other threads which were current before I joined. Can we say shortly that the most important aspect of free will is our freedom to turn to Christ? Anyone can do that any time in any circumstances, provided he or she has some sense of need. I remember once some years ago when I was giving Fr Zacharias a lift somewhere (getting him in a car is the only way of making time to talk!) I asked him why some people find faith and others don't. He said that faith is a gift. I asked how that gift is gained. He said, if God sees even the tiniest spark of humility (and perhaps a sense of need is an expression of this), He will offer the gift of faith. But the gift must be accepted and used. I must say that this idea of synergy was one of the things which most struck me about Orthodoxy when Bishop Eirenaios first explained it.

In Christ,

Andreas.

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

I remember once some years ago when I was giving Fr Zacharias a lift somewhere (getting him in a car is the only way of making time to talk!) I asked him why some people find faith and others don't. He said that faith is a gift. I asked how that gift is gained. He said, if God sees even the tiniest spark of humility (and perhaps a sense of need is an expression of this), He will offer the gift of faith. But the gift must be accepted and used. I must say that this idea of synergy was one of the things which most struck me about Orthodoxy when Bishop Eirenaios first explained it.


That's it exactly!

We have to get ourselves to where gradually more & more we see that we really know nothing at all.

But there's a point we crave for and that is life in Christ.

If we work in this way Christ will really lead us in His way.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[John Charmley]

Dear Andreas,

Fr. Raphael's guidance is welcome, and points us where we need to look.

I have been looking at this through St. Cyril during today, and draw on his exegesis on the baptism of Our Lord to try to point up some aspects which seem relevant to us here. His reading of John 1:32 asks why Our Lord needed to be baptised, since he was lacking nothing. His answer is that he did it for us. As the 'new' Adam He becomes both the agent and the recipient of redemption; Christ carries out the work of redemption and recreation upon Himself, as representing the new humanity. Our human nature receives the spirit of Christ in baptism, as He did, but it is only fully renewed in the resurrection. [see his commentary on John 7:39]

In his commentary on John 20:22-23, St. Cyril shows the progressive restoration of human nature when Christ breathes the spirit upon the disciples on Easter Day:

And how did the Son restore [humankind]? By slaying death through the death of his holy flesh, and raising up the human race to a mounting incorruption. For Christ was raised for our sake. Therefore, in order that we might learn that it is this one who was the creator of our nature in the beginning, and who sealed us by the Holy Spirit, the Saviour again for us bestows the Spirit through a visible inbreathing on the holy disciples, as on the firstfruits of our renewed nature.

He goes on to make his meaning even clearer:

As therefore from the beginning he was fashioned and came to be, so too is he renewed. And just as then he was formed in the image of his creator, so too now, through participation in the Spirit, he is re-fashioned to the likeness of his maker.

So too is it with us, through baptism and the resurrection our original nature can be restored, and we can be once again in God's image, as we were made.

I hope this helps.



In Christ,


John

[Andreas Moran]

Fr Raphael, your blessing,

I have no difficulty in believing that I know nothing! Everything in our Orthodox faith (you'll notice I avoid the word 'religion') is a paradox in the world's terms. The nearer we get to God the more we realise how far from Him we are.

Dear John,

I need to read your post more carefully than I can just now. I keep coming here for break from marking essays, and my head is full of legal stuff! St Cyril deserves my undivided attention.

In Christ,

Andreas.

[Robert Hegwood]

There is a story I read from one of the lives of the Optina elders. It has long impressed and challenged me.

In the monastery there was this young monk, excellent in every respect, a model in every way but one...he refused to go to the late night services when it was his turn. When approached about this he said that he had spent years trying to get up to go, but was always late, very tired, or oversleeping and constantly beating himself up about his failures and finally just decided for reasons of God's own his constitution was not capable to doing the late services. His spiritual father tried for weeks and months to get him to change his mind, but nothing worked...he had heard all the reasons...even agreed with them, but since he was constitutionally incapable of such things it was moot to continue to beat his head against a wall. Finally the monk's spiritual father took the matter to the abbot who when he heard of all the efforts that had been made said that he would take care of it.

So the next time it was the young monk's turn the Abbot went in his place. Now the abbot was very old and had bad vericose veins which were ulcerated so standing the whole time was very hard for him. But he did it. Afterwards he went to the young monk's cell, prostrated himself before him and said, "have pity on an old man. We are monks. The services must be kept." (or words to that effect) From then on the young monk never had any trouble making his turn at any of the services.

Noticing the change the other monks asked him what the Abbot had said to change his mind. The monk replied that it was nothing the Abbot had said, rather it was the great pool of blood that spread out of the old abbot's boots when he made his prostration and begged him to keep his appointed time of service.

[Andreas Moran]

Dear Fr Raphael, Tanya, Peter and John,

Thank you all for your posts here - they have been very useful. As you say, Tanya, to turn to saints who battled with the sin in question is helpful.

In Christ,

Andreas.

[Justin Frank]

I just read this saying and thought of this thread:

Without temptations, God's concern is not perceived, nor is freedom of speech with Him acquired, nor is spiritual wisdom learnt, nor does the love of God become grounded in the soul.
—St Isaac of Syria

[Kusanagi]

Dear All,

I have a question which arises from a discussion my wife and I were having yesterday. A certain man is a devout Orthodox Christian. He appears to all to be faithful and kind. He has, however, an habitual sin into which he falls from time to time. He hates his sin but there are times when he cannot resist it. He knows exactly what he should do; he has heard all the advice. He prays hard for the temptation to be taken away. But over time, nothing helps. He fears for his soul's salvation, though grace does not entirely desert him.

There may be two responses. First, God has nothing to do with sin, and our character must continue to struggle harder and pray. He may think he cannot struggle harder but he could.

The second is that God could (of course) take the temptation away but allows it to remain so as to keep our character humble.

What do you think of these possible responses? May there be others?

In Christ,

Andreas.

In the spiritual meadow there was a priest who was highly spiritual but always struggled with lust.
He prayed to St John the Baptist to take it away and once when he had to annoit a beautiful Persian woman he had to stop and run away as the lust was about to over come him. So he asked St John the Baptist to take it away. So St John appeared to him and took it away and said since i took it away you will not receive a crown for struggling against it, if it stayed and you struggled you would have received your reward.

[K. Sean Proudler]

Fr Raphael, your blessing,

I have no difficulty in believing that I know nothing! Everything in our Orthodox faith (you'll notice I avoid the word 'religion') is a paradox in the world's terms. The nearer we get to God the more we realise how far from Him we are.

Andreas.

" Do not DECEIVE yourselves. If any one of you thinks he is wise by the standards of this age,
he should become a 'fool' so that he may become wise." (1 Cor 3:18)

[Andreas Moran]

" Do not DECEIVE yourselves. If any one of you thinks he is wise by the standards of this age,
he should become a 'fool' so that he may become wise." (1 Cor 3:18)

For my benefit, at least, will you explain the relevance of this to the context in which you place it?

[Irene]

One article* I have read recently told us not to desire to remove people that we might see as bad from Church. You may know someone has commited terrible and repulsive sins, you may know that they have been to jail for something despicable, but do not desire that they leave your Church and go to another. If all the terrible sinners were removed from Church, or if they were all removed from life, such as when they would stone sinners to death, then they are less likely to repent (or get time to). So many of our Great Saints were terrible sinners and turned their lives around to inspire us now. Sins are allowed because of our free choice. People come to repentence because they search for and find God's love and forgiveness. Orthodox Christians understand they must concentrate on peace and prayer but sometimes someone comes into our midst that disturbs us, we understand that disturbance is something we fight against, it is merely a distraction, and we grow while learning to forgive.

*In an old Orthodox newspaper

[Nina]

Oopps double post sorry.

[Nina]

One article* I have read recently told us not to desire to remove people that we might see as bad from Church.
*In an old Orthodox newspaper

Wow! Of course not! Is that even up for discussion/debate?

Plus according to what Fathers advise us to think and say is that "I am the worse of the sinners."

[Irene]

Wow! Of course not! Is that even up for discussion/debate?

Plus according to what Fathers advise us to think and say is that "I am the worse of the sinners."

Yes, but what I was trying to say was more to the end of my post. I worry about people sometimes, people here on Monachos.

[Nina]

Yes, but what I was trying to say was more to the end of my post. I worry about people sometimes, people here on Monachos.

Ooops... Ah, ok dear Irene! I meant it for the newspaper's people anyway... However you can worry as much as you can about me. :)

[Gary DeSha]

Dear All,

I have a question which arises from a discussion my wife and I were having yesterday. A certain man is a devout Orthodox Christian. He appears to all to be faithful and kind. He has, however, an habitual sin into which he falls from time to time. He hates his sin but there are times when he cannot resist it. He knows exactly what he should do; he has heard all the advice. He prays hard for the temptation to be taken away. But over time, nothing helps. He fears for his soul's salvation, though grace does not entirely desert him.

There may be two responses. First, God has nothing to do with sin, and our character must continue to struggle harder and pray. He may think he cannot struggle harder but he could.

The second is that God could (of course) take the temptation away but allows it to remain so as to keep our character humble.

What do you think of these possible responses? May there be others?

In Christ,

Andreas.

I feel one must understand his/her true nature; their relationship with and to God. That is the responsibility of priests, bishops, teachers, etc. Without that knowledge, how would any Christian know? Does God allows certain sins? I do not believe so. To say so would oppose everything that He has done for, and provided for humanity through our Savior and Lord Jesus Christ!

God gives us the grace, and the strength to deal with our sins and our sinfulness. I truly do not believe God pulls His grace from us, to and fro, like a yo-yo or like a lure to entice us to be "good" people. God's grace is ever present in His Holy Spirit, Who is in us and with us. Everytime we partake of the most precious Body and Blood of Christ, we obtain the strength and nourishment to move forward toward our complete sanctification, our deification. Once we recognize the sin "which so easily besets us," and that recognition happens only because of His Holy Spirit in us, Who convicts us of our short comings, we pray that God would give us more strength to combat either the wiles of the devil or our own passions.

I do not feel that God "allows" sins to remain a hinderance to us to facilitate our humility. The conviction of the Holy Spirit facilitates plenty of humility! God knows "why" we are sinning! It is a matter of our will, and not His will that we sin. Christians will know how they sin, when they sinned, and its consequence! Just like a person with acid reflux knows all too well that when they eat really spicey food or the wrong food they are in for some serious pain. Sin causes pain. Pain in our hearts. I agree with Fr. Rap, we must learn the Prayer of the Heart to stop the pain, and stop the sin. When you tell a child, "do not put your finger in the socket, it will hurt you..." what happens? The child either heads straight for that socket or turns and crawls away! As Christians, we learn and grow like children. We need the Word of God and His teachers to steer us in the right direction. There may be a little scolding once in a while, but then when we come around and understand that when we avoid the pain, we have avoided sin, we come closer to God. When we obey God, there is no pain. Our hearts do not hurt. People around me don't get hurt.

Does God "take away" that sin? Does a saint "take away" that sin? Does God let this sin or that sin to hang around for a while? NO. Our obedience to the Holy Spirit in us defeats that sin and puts it away. Our stubborn will allows those sins to hang around. God hears our prayers for strength and fortitude, and the saint prayers to our Father for the same thing.

God provides all for us. Just as a parent provides everything their child needs to grow, learn, and mature. Our will becomes aligned with God's will for us. The characteristics of Christ will become more and more apparent in us. We will start to exhibit more of the "likeness" of God; our true nature. There is NO sin that God will not forgive a person who has truly confessed, has true sorrow, and commits to truly repent of. God knows this. God knows if that will occur or not; or if the Christian will commit that sin again. The Holy Spirit will convict him again, and again, until he gets it right. That is the compassion of God!

Do you feel guilty when you think adversely of others who have sinned or what they have done? When you mock their situation, or say to yourself, "how could they have done that?" You may say, "what kind of person would do such a thing?" Well, you should. Because, potentially you are capable yourself of the same infraction, the same sin. And only you know where you are with God. The point I am making is when you see someone fall or falling, remember your own condition, it could be you that has fallen. The Holy Spirit in us reminds us of that! That is the compassion of God!

The compassion of God is His knowledge of us, His love for us, and His patience with us. I believe God has no sense of belittling a Christian because of his sin. The Christian does that all by himself. He is our Father, He will teach us, mold us, form us, and guide us into becoming one with Him, not in essence, but in assimilation, truly in His image and in His likeness.

Not my will, but Thy will be done in me.

Blessings to all.

Fr. Gregory (Gary) +

[Paul Cowan]

Well said Father. Thank you.