'Sin unto death' (1 John 5.16-17)

[Jose Lauro Strapasson]

Hi.

From King James Version

If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.*All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.


I was in a discussion with a roman catholic and he pointed this saing that this was what roman catholic calls "mortal sins".
But, when I was looking after this in some bibles I have (all roman catholic) I found a different explanation.

They say this "sin unto death" which John talked about are "Apostasy" or a "sin against holly spirit". But, about the last one, "sin against holly spirit", I think some fathers explained it as the "final impenitence" and any sin can recieve forgiveness.

So, what are "sin unto death"?

Thank you very much!

José Lauro.

P.S. I think we pray for almost everyone and here we see Saint John saing to not pray in some cases...

[Paul Cowan]

Hi Jose:
I am looking in the Praxapostolos (the book of Epistles) in the endnotes on I John 16. I was hoping to find this online so I would not have to type it out, bear with my typos.



I John 5:16 "Unto Death", "towards death"

Blessed Jerome: " Some offences are light, some heavy. It is one thing to owe ten thousand talents, another to owe a farthing. We shall have to give account of the idle word no less than of adultry...You observe, according to the Apostle John, that if we entreat for smaller offenses, we obtain pardon, if for greater ones, it is difficult to obtain our request, and that there is a great difference between sins. And so with respect to the people of Israel who had sinned a sin unto death, it is said to Jeremias: 'Pray not thou for this people, neither entreat for them, and do not withstand Me, for I will not hear thee [Jer. 7:16, Vulg.].'" [Against Jovanianus, Bk. II, ~30, in Nicene, 2nd Ser., VI:411.]

Saint Ambrose: "Saint John did not absolutely forbid that prayer should be made for those who 'sin unto death,' since he knew that Moses, Jeremias, and Stephen had so prayed, and he himself implies that forgiveness is not to be denied them. Such intercessors, then, must be sought for after very grievous sins, for if any ordinary persons pray they are not heard...He was not speaking to Moses and Jeremias, but to the people, who must seek another intercessor for their sins; the people, for whom it is sufficient they entreat God for their lighter faults, and consider that pardon for weightier sins must be reserved for the prayers of the just. For how could John say that graver sins should not be prayed for, when he had read that Moses prayed and obtained his request, where there had been wilfil casting off of faith, and knew that Jeremias also had entreated?

"How could John say that we should not pray for the sin unto death, who himself in the Apocalypse [Rev. 2:12-16] wrote the message to the angel of the church of Pergamos that they repent? Did not John himself know that Stephen prayed for his persecutors, who had not been able even to listen to the name of Christ?...And we see the result of this prayer in the case of the apostle, for Paul, who kept the garments of those who were stoning Stephen, not long after became an apostle by the grace of God, having before been a persecutor." [Two books concerning repentence, Bk. I, Ch X, ~~44-47, in Nicene, 2nd Ser., X:337.]


Ok, So what I hear them saying, or eluding to, is 1 sin unto death.
1) Idolatry: as based on the 2 referenced scriptures in Jeremiah and Revelation.

My Priest has said there are other sins unto death as well, but these are not specifically mentioned in your referenced passages.

They are adultry, murder, injustice, apostacy and fornication as well as idolatry. I bow to the Fathers that will read this for correction to my statement. I certainly do not want to mislead.

If you do not have this book or the Apostolos, I recommend you try to obtain a copy. http://www.easternchristiansupply.biz/products.cgi/c120/c14/c13438/c14686/41754

In Christ,
Paul

[Peter Farrington]

Is it not the case that these are sins which can 'lead to spiritual death' rather than that if one commits fornication that's it.

I would be very hesitant to even make it sound like that was the case since it is already clear that some Orthodox folk want certainty, and to be told, with certainty, that committing fornication is a sin that cannot be prayed for would surely lead some to despair.

I would be more concerned about my own pride and laziness which could easily lead to my own spiritual death, yet are rather hidden.

Someone who has murdered and repented is surely able to be saved, it is the one who has a murderous heart that is lost. The one who has committed fornication can repent and be saved, but the one who has a lustful heart is lost.

I would suggest that it is better for us to pray for all men, rather than try to work out which sin is to death. God will not judge us too harshly for having pity on sinners.

Peter

[Jose Lauro Strapasson]

Thank you vey much Peter and Paul.

By the way, I got very interested in this two books, Evangelistarion, and Praxapostolos, it is going to be my next by :)

José L.