Marriage and God's will

[Audrey]

I have a theological and psychological question about how to think about God's sovereignty regarding marriage.

One time a priest talked to me about forfeiting a sense of "rights" and "expectations" of God. For example, I don't have a right to have my life turn out a particular way or to expect God to give me some particular thing.

I was wondering how this relates to marriage.

Since the Bible states several times that God created man and woman for each other, to cleave to one another and be an icon of Christ and the church, does one simply have the right and the choice to marry? I would think that one does, given that marriage seems to be God's created intention for those who desire that state and don't desire the state of virginity or celibacy.

OR, does one need to "forfeit" this right and expectation to marry, as if it is God's choice and not one's own choice? Given that we are apparently created with a strong desire for a companion of the opposite sex does this mean one can simply expect, hope, and choose to have one when the right one comes along? Or would this be considered having a sense of "entitlement" and "rights"?

It seems like marriage is in a category all its own. It is not a necessity such as food and water, but it is also not a frivolous pleasure such as wealth or a good job. It seems somewhere in between: a very strong desire, almost like a need. It seems like appropriate to expect food and water, and feel one has a "right" to them. After all, we need them to survive, so how would it make sense for us to say that we have no "right" to them? In the same way, I am asking whether we have the right to "expect" the state of marriage since it is a different sort of need based on God's created order.

Hope this makes sense. I would love to hear the feedback of many people in this community who are much more theologically knowledgeable than I am. I guess this is sort of a psychological as well as theological question because I'm not sure how to think about this issue. I tend to carry around guilt for having such a strong desire for a mate, and then tend to feel angry at God when I wonder if He is going to impose on me a life of celibacy (I am a former Protestant from a reformed background so I still carry around negative views of God; I'm working on that). Hopefully you will discern the questions behind my questions, as I desire healing in the way I think about and relate to God.

Thanks!

[John Charmley]

Dear Audrey,

If you can get hold of volume 4 of the Ante-Nicene Fathers, you might find the writings of Tertullian in it of some interest on your theme.

There is too much to quote at length, and you can find it on line at http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf04.html, but you may find it useful.

Like many of the Fathers Tertullian's words can come over rather strangely to a modern woman, and many of his assumptions are clearly culturally embedded, but all that being said, there is much to ponder.

His view is summed up in the title to the Third Chapter:

MARRIAGE GOOD: CELIBACY PREFERABLE
But let it not be thought that my reason for premising thus much
concerning the liberty granted to the old, and the restraint imposed on the
later time, is that I may lay a foundation for teaching that Christ’s advent
was intended to dissolve wedlock, (and) to abolish marriage unions; as if
from this period onward I were prescribing an end to marrying. Let them
see to that, who, among the rest of their perversities, teach the disjoining
of the “one flesh in twain;” denying Him who, after borrowing the female
from the male, recombined between themselves, in the matrimonial
computation, the two bodies taken out of the consortship of the selfsame
material substance. In short, there is no place at all where we read that
nuptials are prohibited; of course on the ground that they are “a good
thing.” What, however, is better than this “good,” we learn from the
apostle, who permits marrying indeed, but prefers abstinence; the former
on account of the insidiousnesses of temptations, the latter on account of
he straits of the times. Now, by looking into the reason thus given for each
proposition, it is easily discerned that the ground on which the power of
marrying is conceded is necessity; but whatever necessity grants, she by her
very nature depreciates. In fact, in that it is written, “To marry is better
than to burn,” what, pray, is the nature of this “good” which is (only)
commended by comparison with “evil,” so that the reason why
“marrying” is more good is (merely) that “burning” is less? Nay, but how
far better is it neither to marry nor to burn?


Like so many ascetics he favoured chastity, but not everyone is called to it, and it might be helpful for you to discuss your feelings about this with your priest. One can come away from a reading of Holy Writ with a low view of marriage, but this is not what the Church, which recognises it as a sacrament, actually teaches. As in everything, we need its guidance, and to read the Fathers with its understanding.

If you have a strong desire for a mate and for a family, that too is a blessed calling, and in its own way every bit as hard a road as the celibate one; living the Christian life in your own family, and being part of the wider family of the Church is a great challenge, and if you are called to it, it requires every bit of prayer and God's help.

We might recall that Our Lord performed His first miracle at a wedding in Cana, and anyone who has ever attended a Jewish wedding knows what a family event that is!

I do hope that one of our Fathers here can bring his pastoral wisdom to bear on this for you, but do go and talk to your priest - he will help.

In Christ,

John

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

I have a theological and psychological question about how to think about God's sovereignty regarding marriage.

One time a priest talked to me about forfeiting a sense of "rights" and "expectations" of God. For example, I don't have a right to have my life turn out a particular way or to expect God to give me some particular thing.

I was wondering how this relates to marriage.

Since the Bible states several times that God created man and woman for each other, to cleave to one another and be an icon of Christ and the church, does one simply have the right and the choice to marry? I would think that one does, given that marriage seems to be God's created intention for those who desire that state and don't desire the state of virginity or celibacy.

OR, does one need to "forfeit" this right and expectation to marry, as if it is God's choice and not one's own choice? Given that we are apparently created with a strong desire for a companion of the opposite sex does this mean one can simply expect, hope, and choose to have one when the right one comes along? Or would this be considered having a sense of "entitlement" and "rights"?

It seems like marriage is in a category all its own. It is not a necessity such as food and water, but it is also not a frivolous pleasure such as wealth or a good job. It seems somewhere in between: a very strong desire, almost like a need. It seems like appropriate to expect food and water, and feel one has a "right" to them. After all, we need them to survive, so how would it make sense for us to say that we have no "right" to them? In the same way, I am asking whether we have the right to "expect" the state of marriage since it is a different sort of need based on God's created order.

Hope this makes sense. I would love to hear the feedback of many people in this community who are much more theologically knowledgeable than I am. I guess this is sort of a psychological as well as theological question because I'm not sure how to think about this issue. I tend to carry around guilt for having such a strong desire for a mate, and then tend to feel angry at God when I wonder if He is going to impose on me a life of celibacy (I am a former Protestant from a reformed background so I still carry around negative views of God; I'm working on that). Hopefully you will discern the questions behind my questions, as I desire healing in the way I think about and relate to God.

Thanks!

I think that with every passing generation we become more cluttered up with desires so that gradually we have come to the point where we are like people standing in the midst of a dense forest looking for the light.

To follow this analogy a bit. We must absolutely struggle to be aware of God's will for us and to follow this in regards to our specific path in life. But this is found according to what our Holy Frs explain by putting aside our multitude of desires & attending to Christ.

This is very difficult to explain at first because of so many voices in our head and desires which we take as real and legitimate; and several really are.

But nevertheless to hear and follow are not the same thing. One can hear and still get quite lost in self-will and indeed we usually do as we attempt over & over to follow the path.

The main thing is to bit by bit put aside what God gives us to recognize at the time as selfish in ourselves. This recognition of what selfishness is changes over time but God awakens the conscience to hear what it should at the proper time. We then in faith need to follow the path this leads us along.

All of these alternative paths for us- marriage, monastic, celibacy or whatever- are never sorted out by strict analysis alone. Rather they are discerned by first laying aside our own will. Inasmuch as we do this God will reveal His will to us as to what path we should follow.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Justin]

OR, does one need to "forfeit" this right and expectation to marry, as if it is God's choice and not one's own choice?

I personally think you should marry whoever you want, for whatever reasons you want. However, it might be an interesting read to go through the apocryphal/deuterocanonical/readable book of Tobit, which has a lengthy subplot based on the idea that certain people are destined (by God) to be with other people. It's just a story, but it's interesting reading.

[Peter Farrington]

I have often thought that two committed Christians should be able to be married whether or not they were the perfect choice for each other. But I know that my own experience of being married to someone who is not Orthodox has been difficult and is not to be advised unless, as in my case, one party become Orthodox.

This is a good example of where the canons have practical, common-sense value, though in fact there are those in Eastern Orthodoxy who have criticised my own Coptic Orthodox Patriarchate for not allowing the marriage of Coptic Orthodox and Roman Catholics. I think the Coptic Orthodox should be commended for sticking by the canons, they save a lot of heartache later on.

I could imagine being in a perfect Orthodox marriage, but in fact I know that the mere fact of my own presence in such a marriage would mean that it would not be perfect at all, and would face some of the same problems I now struggle with in a mixed marriage.

Sorry..what I am trying to say is that the will of God for me is what is right in front of me. Nothing grand and world shattering. What sort of husband will I be today? What sort of Father will I be? Will I die to self in this little community God has placed me in, today?

As Father Raphel says, finding the will of God is not so much the result of analysis but rather of obedience in the little things God has placed before us. If we can put to death our self where we are now, then we can see more clearly the next place to put our feet on our spiritual pilgrimage.

There is no point looking back wondering if I did the right thing there, and there and there. Rather I need to ask how I will live right now, in the place where God has brought me?

This is rather looking backwards at my own marriage. It is perfect for me, because it is where I am. There is no other place where God wills to meet me.

Starting from the beginning though. There is probably value in seeking God with our whole heart. Praying that we will find our desire for intimacy fulfilled in Him. Throwing ourselves into His service. Since it is then more likely that those we meet who might be appropriate as a life partner also share that desire to serve God.

If we are often in Church in prayer then those we are likely to meet will also be people of prayer. If we give ourselves to service then those we are likely to meet will also have given themselves to the service of God and others.

By all means pray regularly that if it be God's will to join you to a life partner then this might come to pass. But do not pray obsessively. Pray rather that you will come close to God and be used by Him. The rest will take place as He wills and as He knows best.

Peter

[Audrey]

Thank you all for your time and for your wisdom. Some things that were said were helpful, and yet I'm finding myself struggling still with confusion.

It seems that it will be a lifelong battle to become aware of my selfishness and to surrender my selfish desires, though I definitely should do that to the best of my ability each day. Meanwhile I have decisions to make that can't wait a lifetime, such as whether and whom to marry. I like what C.S. Lewis says about Eros: that eros love blurs the distinction between giving and receiving, because both are done simultaneously (maybe not continuously, but essentially). Given that, it is hard when regarding something such as marriage to pretend to put all selfishness away, considering that one componenet of marriage is being given to, as well as giving.

So, I suppose I'm wondering if there is something inherently wrong with making a decision for one's self to get married and to marry a particular person, as long, of course, as the other person is spiritually compatible (especially, and ideally, Orthodox) and has a similar life calling to oneself. I know of couples who did not feel they received a confirming answer directly from God as to whether they should get married and yet they still believe they made the right decisions.

To me, I'm wondering if God simply gives us that freedom and that creative determination to make those decisions, if those decisions are made for the love of God and others to the best of one's ability. Even if God does have a "will" for my life, I find myself doubting I will be aware of it in time to make decisions I need to make. For example, I see God's hand moving in my life and directing my circumstances in retrospect, but at the time I didn't know if the decisions I was making were in the "will" of God or not.

I'm just trying to sort out this confusion. I was never taught anything consistend regarding how one should follow God regarding attempting to know His will, and whether God wants us to make our own choices or to assume that He will tell us what to deo. I really do appreciate your feedback, and the words you have already given to me will be taken to heart.
Blessings,
Audrey

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Thank you all for your time and for your wisdom. Some things that were said were helpful, and yet I'm finding myself struggling still with confusion.

It seems that it will be a lifelong battle to become aware of my selfishness and to surrender my selfish desires, though I definitely should do that to the best of my ability each day. Meanwhile I have decisions to make that can't wait a lifetime, such as whether and whom to marry. I like what C.S. Lewis says about Eros: that eros love blurs the distinction between giving and receiving, because both are done simultaneously (maybe not continuously, but essentially). Given that, it is hard when regarding something such as marriage to pretend to put all selfishness away, considering that one componenet of marriage is being given to, as well as giving.

So, I suppose I'm wondering if there is something inherently wrong with making a decision for one's self to get married and to marry a particular person, as long, of course, as the other person is spiritually compatible (especially, and ideally, Orthodox) and has a similar life calling to oneself. I know of couples who did not feel they received a confirming answer directly from God as to whether they should get married and yet they still believe they made the right decisions.

To me, I'm wondering if God simply gives us that freedom and that creative determination to make those decisions, if those decisions are made for the love of God and others to the best of one's ability. Even if God does have a "will" for my life, I find myself doubting I will be aware of it in time to make decisions I need to make. For example, I see God's hand moving in my life and directing my circumstances in retrospect, but at the time I didn't know if the decisions I was making were in the "will" of God or not.

I'm just trying to sort out this confusion. I was never taught anything consistend regarding how one should follow God regarding attempting to know His will, and whether God wants us to make our own choices or to assume that He will tell us what to deo. I really do appreciate your feedback, and the words you have already given to me will be taken to heart.
Blessings,
Audrey

God's will, most of the time, is not revealed like a voice from on high, but from within the life we are leading right now. This is why we have to be very careful about following the various scenarios of mind and heart which preoccupy us. They seem real and worthy of following. But there is a spiritual method or way of life given us by the Church which takes us in a very different direction for discerning God's will.

The image I like to give people is that of a hallway along which appear doorways. Think of it... preoccupying yourself with what may lie ahead you can imagine infinite number of doors before you, the question of whether they will be open or closed, locked or ready to be entered, of whether danger or not lies through the doorways, etc. All of this can preoccupy us in thinking about what lies ahead in terms of what God provides for us.

But none of this is real. What is real is what doors actually do appear in the hallway. Is there an actual person before us who draws our heart & mind to consider that commitment which marriage is? If so, then this is the doorway to pray about and consider, hopefully in consultation with a spiritual father or your priest. In other words to begin to discern God's will for us we need to begin having an ascetic relationship to everything we face, whether through mind or heart. We need to lay aside the amazing clutter of thoughts and scenarios and preoccupations which dominate our lives and present themselves as reality to us. Then in faith and willingness to engage in an Orthodox life we enter that doorway.


In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Also something I forgot to add in my last post.

Doing certain specific things is definitely involved in discerning God's will about marriage or anything else. But often what is much more involved is our decision to engage ourselves in the life which God opens to us through a certain situation with certain people.

It's a good question I think. In God's eyes is marriage really just about a one on one relationship? Doesn't engaging in marriage really involve us in a whole new world involving many other people and situations? This isn't even restricted to time & place but indeed opens us up to a vista of incredible dimensions where our life touches countless others. So it goes no matter what path or doorway God reveals to us as His will for us.

So to discern and follow God's will is to allow ourselves to follow something far broader and deep than we can normally see. That's why Abraham who left the land well known to himself for something so different and beyond himself is the abiding image of what it means to follow God's will.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Audrey]

Fr. Raphael-
Your words were very helpful to me! Thanks for your time in writing them. It makes a lot of sense to me to look at the doors that actually appear in the hallway and then to pray about God's will regarding those doors--yet even those doors that do appear, it is helpful to not get too attached to those possibilities but to seek God's will until one of those doors opens up. It is really easy to be preoccupied with possibilities, but its true that is not really what's real.

[MariaGatchina]

Audrey,

This is such a good question from so many different POV's.

I feel the same way as you mentioned about marriage. This desire is so deep inside my heart that I can't imagine that God wants anything else for me. But then I question it all because I have been through a few rough breakup from people I thought I should marry. I couldn't imagine that they weren't from God.

How do we choose who we are to marry - or anything else for that matter. I constantly pray to hear from God yet I feel I never do. The hallway/doors analogy is a good one yes but if I see a door and pray on it and don't get the answer then what ?? And I want to Gods will in my life but what about those things that, because of how the world is today, have to be decided NOW and you pray and just have to step out in faith because there is no waiting. I trust that the decision will be right but when its not I question WHY ??? How do you move away from all that ???

Father wrote "Doing certain specific things is definitely involved in discerning God's will about marriage or anything else." Can someone tell me what those cerain and specific things are because I feel like I am in a black hole when it comes to hearing from or feeling God. I don't know where to go or what to do anymore and I honestly don't even know what to pray anymore so I just constantly ask God for help. Just that one word - help.

Another thing I grapple with in regards to marriage is that I WANT to marry someone that is Orthodox. Someone that will share the same faith & values as me and someone I can share the services with. I would think this is a good thing and something God would want too but where can I meet that person ?? I have been to a few churches in my area and either there is no one my age or there is one that is already taken. I have dreams about setting up a network of sinlge Orthodox people who want to meet others like them. To me that would show that the others are serious about their faith as I am. I don't find that the church helps to facillitate singles meeting within the church - though I know this is not their responsibility. I would be more then willing if I even knew where to start.

Well, I hope that this discussion continues because it is a good learning opportunity for many.

In Christ !

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Audrey,

This is such a good question from so many different POV's.

I feel the same way as you mentioned about marriage. This desire is so deep inside my heart that I can't imagine that God wants anything else for me. But then I question it all because I have been through a few rough breakup from people I thought I should marry. I couldn't imagine that they weren't from God.

How do we choose who we are to marry - or anything else for that matter. I constantly pray to hear from God yet I feel I never do. The hallway/doors analogy is a good one yes but if I see a door and pray on it and don't get the answer then what ?? And I want to Gods will in my life but what about those things that, because of how the world is today, have to be decided NOW and you pray and just have to step out in faith because there is no waiting. I trust that the decision will be right but when its not I question WHY ??? How do you move away from all that ???

Father wrote "Doing certain specific things is definitely involved in discerning God's will about marriage or anything else." Can someone tell me what those cerain and specific things are because I feel like I am in a black hole when it comes to hearing from or feeling God. I don't know where to go or what to do anymore and I honestly don't even know what to pray anymore so I just constantly ask God for help. Just that one word - help.

Another thing I grapple with in regards to marriage is that I WANT to marry someone that is Orthodox. Someone that will share the same faith & values as me and someone I can share the services with. I would think this is a good thing and something God would want too but where can I meet that person ?? I have been to a few churches in my area and either there is no one my age or there is one that is already taken. I have dreams about setting up a network of sinlge Orthodox people who want to meet others like them. To me that would show that the others are serious about their faith as I am. I don't find that the church helps to facillitate singles meeting within the church - though I know this is not their responsibility. I would be more then willing if I even knew where to start.

Well, I hope that this discussion continues because it is a good learning opportunity for many.

In Christ !


It's not good for us to engage in personal spiritual counsel on a forum like this so my what I write here, please, should only be taken as general comments.

First off we must make every effort to not look at things theoretically but rather to see what is actually before us. In other words to keep with the door & hallway analogy, we must stop ourselves from asking questions such as, 'what if such & such a door appears?' The risk to us when we do this is that we are bouncing off our own mental or emotional projections and not rerally living in the reality which God has provided for us.

A much better way is to bring to God whatever is in our heart and then see what God provides. In this way we can see how our desires relate to God's will for us. It could be that what we desire, even if it seems proper on the face of it, is not so in the way or time we desire it.

On the other hand it could also very well be that God is providing us with exactly what we need in the spiritual state that we are presently in. Does God want failed relationships? No. But we do need to see our own contributing weaknesses within a relationship. And if this relationship failed we need to look at how we also contributed to this.

Again this is said only in general terms and can even sound brutal. But in many cases we also contribute to such failed relationships even if not being the most destructive partner. No one after all is perfect, so a measure of self-recognition is very important after such break ups. The fact that we are sinful is a sign that we too, even if not in way obvious to how we can presently see, bring along to a relationship baggage in which are things both constructive & destructive.

So even such distressing times allow us to grow in self-honesty & contrition. And this is very important so as to replace negative feelings of hate and revenge and bitterness with something positive.

Moving into a positive space also allows us to grow in virtue, especially patience and faith in God.

Lastly, to follow God's will does not mean we are trying to replace His will with ours. When we have these discussions about following God's will it almost sounds like that's what we want or are looking for.

God doesn't want us to replace our will with His. Besides being theologically impossible (you'd literally be God) this would also be a complete violation of what He created us to be and what He created us for.

God wants that our will resurrect like Lazarus after four days in the tomb. Of course we must have His grace for this to occur. But still God wants our will to revive and come to life. He wants us through the struggle of our life to discover what He created us to be.

This means that before us lies a life of trial and error & even great uncertainty. We can go in a certain door or not without this having to be based on absolute certainty- that's alright. But what is important is that no matter what decision is made we still struggle to put Christ at the centre of our lives.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[John Charmley]

Dear Audrey, Dear Maria,

There is so much wisdom in Fr. Raphael's post; his parish is indeed blessed.

When he writes

Again this is said only in general terms and can even sound brutal. But in many cases we also contribute to such failed relationships even if not being the most destructive partner. No one after all is perfect, so a measure of self-recognition is very important after such break ups. The fact that we are sinful is a sign that we too, even if not in way obvious to how we can presently see, bring along to a relationship baggage in which are things both constructive & destructive.

he alerts us to what is at the heart of this - namely the lessons that we need to learn so that the next relationship will be better. Even if we have not been the one to end it, if it was a real relationship, we will have had a part in it; what did we not do?

St. Isaac's comment 'Are you wiser than God?' comes to mind here. It is part of out nature to want something strongly, and even to go against that still small voice inside us which says it is bad for us, simply because we must have it. How often that ends badly each of us will know from her or his own experience. There is a message there for us.

In 1 Corinthians 13:4-7 St. Paul says something about the greater love that also applies to our human situation:


4 Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up;
5 does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil;
6 does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth;
7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
He knew that although faith and hope are great, the thing that will most inspire these things, and the thing that will push human beings to go several extras miles is love. It is really through love that we will keep the commandments and walk in the way of Our Lord.

But that emotion also works on a human level very powerfully, and here in the west, we no longer (for the most part) live in societies where our parents will decide who we marry. That, however, is historically a very recent development, and we have never really dealt, in a satisfactory manner, with the downside of the freedom we now enjoy; and, as with all God's other freedoms, we have shown a propensity to abuse it.

There was, some time ago, under the 'Ascesis' thread, a discussion about dating, in which most of the participants (not all) were male; I suspect Maria and Audrey might be interested in it - and see that their concerns are shared by men - so just how good are our communication skills then?

In Christ,

John

[Peter Farrington]

This is an interesting contribution to the thread John, thank you.

I have noticed that there is a very great difference between the normal Coptic Orthodox attitude towards dating and marriage, and anything I have experience of as a British Christian growing up in an Evangelical household.

Generally the Coptic Orthodox are very cautious about dating. The younger members of either sex will often have separate activities, such as Sunday School classes, and will meet together as larger supervised groups to do the usual fun activities that Youth Groups all over the West do, such a bowling, barbeques, bible studies etc etc.

From my understanding and observation, dating in pairs will only take place when there is some intent to find a life partner, and even then will not take place immediately on two people meeting. I also sense that there is a greater involvement of parents as well, not to the extent of choosing a life partner, but certainly giving advice that will be more likely to be heeded at an earlier period in a relationship.

Of course Coptic Orthodox youth are prey to the same temptations and weaknesses as all of us, but I do think there is value in the caution they exercise around dating, whereas in the West we tend to view pairing off as being completely normal and indeed to be encouraged and aspired to. Yet as John points out, this is a relatively recent phenomenon.

Peter

[Rebecca Gabl]

That reminds me of someone I know who desires monasticism, but never had a boyfriend. A number of people, even those who greatly respect monasticism, told her, "How do you know you'd rather be a monastic if you haven't even tried dating?" Of course, people engaged to be married don't regularly hear the question: "How do you know you'd rather be married if you haven't even tried living in a monastery?"