Head coverings

[Mary]

Dear friends,

Happy New Year!

I am not making an attempt to start another discussion about headcoverings, since I realize that this topic comes up very frequently in any christian group.

I would just like to ask a few questions, to those who do wear head coverings. I never have, and now I feel I should. But I don't know where to get started. I suppose it'll get easier as I practice. Right now, it takes more time to get something on my head (and keep it there!) than it would to just pin my hair in place and forget about it. I'd like to find something that stays on my head without too many pins. What kind of head coverings do you wear? Do you make your own or do you buy them? What's the best thing to do with your hair - leave it loose, braid it or make a bun?

And to get a little personal - why do you wear them? For me, it was just a simple command that I could either choose to obey or disobey. I'd never paid much attention to it and no one in our parish cares one way or the other. I'd never worn one before and so, I was glad I didn't have to start worrying about it. But, I've been praying, that I'd be shown how to be a real woman, because I look around at the women in our church and women I"ve known, and I just don't feel like I've learned how to be one! I thought it would be natural, since I am one, but.... I was wrong. I thought, the answer to my prayers would be more along the lines of accepting myself as I am and developing motherly feelings towards my kids, and wifey feelings towards my husband, and sisterly feelings towards everyone else...

Instead I came across some articles on headcoverings. First of all, I didn't know angels cared one way or the other about my head. And then, I realized, that my problem wasnt' really with putting something on my head because of the inconvenience of it or the unfashionableness of it, but rather because of 'submission' and 'authority'. I probably have a twisted understanding of what submission and authority truly means, which is probably why I react against it so much.

I don't think head coverings have much to do with husbands because nuns wear them all the time. Once I realized that husbands were just a small part of head-coverings, I didn't feel like I had any excuse left to not try it out. All this happened on a saturday, and I didn't have a scarf lying around and I didn't want to do anything without our priest's permission so that sunday, I went to church without a head covering. And I felt VERY uncovered when I went to venerate the icons. I still wasn't sure how to get started - so I wrote to our priest, asking if the older women in the church would feel offended if I all of a sudden started to wear a scarf. Especially since, they're the women that I find all the womanly triats in that are lacking in myself...! So, I was confused again, about what this scarf thing had to do with being a woman.

Ok - so that was two weeks ago. Last Sunday, we were at a different church and I wore a nice warm scarf and I was glad it was winter. This week, I've been cutting up fabric and trying to come up with something simple that will stay on and not cut off the blood supply to my scalp. I know I'm complicating it somewhere. So I thought I'd call out for some help and find out what others are doing.

I hope no one wants to know what wearing head coverings has to do with being a woman, because I dont' know. All I know is, I'm going to feel very disobedient if I go to church this sunday without one.

Thanks so much.

Mary.

[Sophia]

Mary,

I can relate to how you are feeling. I'd like to let you know that the types of head coverings I've encountered the most are triangular shaped and usually made of lace or another thin fabric. Many times the women simply set them upon their heads, sometimes with a couple of pins. Occasionally I have seem them tied loosely in the back.

I have not seem them worn tightly. Remember the intent is not to keep ones hair contained, but as you said, to be obedient and submit.

I hope that this helps.

In Christ,
Sophia

[Father David Moser]

Mary,

Although I am not someone who you would think of as wearing a "head covering" in fact I do. Clergymen are expected to cover their heads in certain situations (and to uncover them in others). As a result, I "cover my head" with a hat - a skoufia or kamilavka. I'm not sure I would recommend either as fashionable or comfortable.

To address your question a little more directly though, I notice you seem to be focusing on scarves and such. Why not opt for a hat. Some can be quite comfortable and convenient and even fashionable. My wife wears hats as much as she wears a scarf type covering. A hat doesn't need to be "high fashion", it can be simple and functional and comfortable. I also have parishioners who put on one of the little lace doily things and just pin it in place. Minimal, but perfectly acceptable. Or as you noted another options might be a nice long scarf or shawl on the shoulders can be lifted onto the head at need with little or no effort.

As for the "why" part - I cover my head out of obedience and out of humility. The head coverings of clergy indicate that they are "under" someone else's authority (since the coverings can only be awarded by the bishop). When I cover my head, it is a reminder that the priesthood is not "mine" or something I earned or deserved, but it is something that was bestowed upon me by our Holy Mother Church and that grace only rests with me as long as I continue to live and act within the limits of the life of the Church.

Now I know that my answers may not directly address your question, but hopefully they will be helpful.

Fr David Moser

[MariaGatchina]

Mary.

I know what you are going through. I just started going to the Orthodox church from a Catholic church. I was TOLD I had to wear the head covering by a lay person (I think because he liked the style more then the true reasons) and then by a priest I was told that it was up to me. I did not wear it because - well, to be honest, I was being spiteful against the lay person at first but then just because no one else wore it and I couldn't get a good reason why I should wear it.

Then I read the most beautiful article on http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/new.aspx and it explained that the covering was not only to make the angels recognize the women but also to show the women a special place within the church. That the women of the church hold a very special place made me feel like I should wear my head covering with honor. I felt like if I had had that explanation from the start then I would have always worn it. Not that I want or need to feel special but to show that I acknowledge the place of honor I hold just for being female.

I have many scarves that are squares I fold into a triangle and tie under my hair at the back of my head. If my hair is up I use pins to keep the scarf in place ... otherwise I find if you keep it over the ears (half anyway) as opposed to behind the ear it stays comfortable (not tight) and doesn't fall off easily.

I hope that this helps you and if I have said anything wrong please forgive me. But do check out the article (search for head coverings) on the site I mentions.

God Bless and please pray for me.

[Mary]

Thank you so much for your replies.

Fr David, I must admit, I didn't think of hats at all!


As for the "why" part - I cover my head out of obedience and out of humility. The head coverings of clergy indicate that they are "under" someone else's authority (since the coverings can only be awarded by the bishop). When I cover my head, it is a reminder that the priesthood is not "mine" or something I earned or deserved, but it is something that was bestowed upon me by our Holy Mother Church and that grace only rests with me as long as I continue to live and act within the limits of the life of the Church.

I really love how you said that - something really beautiful about it - although I can't put my finger on the exact part that's beautiful. Perhaps it's the whole thing... (sort of like orthodoxy...)


Then I read the most beautiful article on http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/new.aspx and it explained that the covering was not only to make the angels recognize the women but also to show the women a special place within the church.

Maria, that's a lot of articles on that page! Where you thinking of the one further down the page titled "On account of angels: why I cover my head" by Elsabet? That was one of the articles that I read - only I read it in a copy of "handmaiden" that I borrowed from one of the ladies at church. Great article!

I have another question now - do you wear a headcovering all the time, or only to church or during the prayer times at home? There is the verse that speaks about praying unceasingly... so, if I'm to have my head covered while praying, and if I'm to be praying all the time, then it follows that I ought to have my head covered all the time...


I know what you are going through. I just started going to the Orthodox church from a Catholic church. I was TOLD I had to wear the head covering by a lay person (I think because he liked the style more then the true reasons) and then by a priest I was told that it was up to me. I did not wear it because - well, to be honest, I was being spiteful against the lay person at first but then just because no one else wore it and I couldn't get a good reason why I should wear it.

Maria, I understand exactly! When I was in nursing school, there was a guy who lead chapel, who loved to read Ps 51 - only, I hated how he read it. As a way of getting back at him - I always avoided reading ps 51!! (Can you believe, I always considered myself to be of above average intelligence?LOL)

Anyway - I started reading Ps 51 again when I was being introduced to orthodoxy, and I found that I couldnt' get enough of it, so I was reading it several times a day! I wonder how much more I missed out on just because I was reacting to someone else!

Mary

[MariaGatchina]

Yes, that was the exact article I was talking about and it touched me very much.

I believe the woman that wrote that article was saying that she wore her head covering all the time but I do not. I wear it in church and at home when I pray but no other time ... but I do pray constantly throughout the day. I am just of the impression that I would rather not draw attention to myself.

And yes, I know that it was wrong to be spiteful esp. when dealing with the church but he just constantly picked on me and I felt like I had to keep some of my own control over what I did and did not do. Turns out he has control issues so I am glad that I took my little stand.

Have a great weekend and God Bless.

[Elzabet]

I cover my hair most of the time in a personal obedience to scripture that I fought against for two years.


What kind of head coverings do you wear? Do you make your own or do you buy them? What's the best thing to do with your hair - leave it loose, braid it or make a bun?

I wear scarves, bandanas and baseball caps. My hair underneath...Well sometimes a scarf hides a multitude of ick. :o)


And to get a little personal - why do you wear them? For me, it was just a simple command that I could either choose to obey or disobey.

Yes, what you said. I think that covering or not covering is something that should be taken on prayerfully and with the advice of your spiritual parent.

[Kira]

in my observance, at least in Crete I did not observe women wearing any headcoverings (with the very rare exception of very old women).

is this more of a Russian thing?

myself, don't wear one unless I would be offending people present by not wearing one. Certainly if it is an issue I will wear one. They are hot and I have very short and slippery hair. I find myself adjusting the thing all the time, as it falls off all the time. I am also concerned about having something the ends catch fire in a crowded small church. Hairpins don't work for me - they fall off. I find the whole thing annoying and bothersome and find myself adjusting the scarf all the time, which is very distracting.

Best thing to get is a think triangular scarf made from some light material and tie it in a semi-pirate fashion in the back. Old Russian ladies sometimes tie them under the chin. I've tried a huge rectangular Thai silk scarf but ended up looking like a Muslim woman wearing a hijab. (Maybe I should just get a hijab since they seem to stay on better?). Anyway, any time I do prostrations the stupid thing falls off anyway).

The beauty of Orthodoxy is that everything does not have to be done exactly the same way and there is flexibility in inconsequential matters. What matters is the spiritual garment you are wearing - what's in your heart.

One of the most beautiful moments in Orthodoxy happened to me in remote region of Montana in an old Serbian church, there were cowboys in jeans and cowboy boots, probably still smelling of horses standing and crossing themselves. That was cool!

[Mary]

I wear scarves, bandanas and baseball caps. My hair underneath...Well sometimes a scarf hides a multitude of ick. :o)


LOL, Elzabet! In my case, it's vanity that needs to hide under that scarf. I love my hair. It was always thick and heavy and oh so straight. And then, after my first pregnancy, it got curly and light! You can't imagine how many hours I've spent admiring my curls that don't wash away! When I got a hair cut last year, the lady commented on how soft and wonderful my hair felt. Oh yes - I love my hair, love to comb it, try different looks on it, love to feel it, and always - marvel at my 'natural' curls. So now no one can see it, not even me. It makes no difference anymore whether I have gorgeous curls or not.... sigh.



The beauty of Orthodoxy is that everything does not have to be done exactly the same way and there is flexibility in inconsequential matters. What matters is the spiritual garment you are wearing - what's in your heart.



Kira, while I agree with you that scarves are inconsequential, in general, I'm afraid in my case, they are a necessity. When I felt convicted about not wearing one, and strongly felt God saying I should, as is my habit, I argued with him. I reminded him that the older women in our parish, most of them cradle orthodox, didn't wear one. I told him I didn't want to offend them, or make them feel like I was suddenly more pious than they. Then I reminded him of St Mary of Egypt who didn't have much of any kind of covering. (And He was quick to point out that even though she's my patron saint, that's one thing about her that I should't try to emulate...)

I asked our priest if it would be offensive to the older women if I started wearing a scarf all of sudden, and he said, no - just do it. Yesterday, I was at the mall, trying out my scarf - just a really big fabric headband. (thought I'd ease into it...) I noticed that it was much easier for myself to notice the thoughts in my mind, because I kept feeling something on my head. I wonder if I'll stop paying attention as I get used to having something on my head.

To those around, I must've looked Jewish, with my black and white dress, black jacket and a black sort-of-head covering. Would be nice if there was an 'orthodox' look - but, since the 'look' in inconsequential, I suppose we're free to choose any head-covering, and stick with one that'll stay on our heads! You're right the muslim one really seems to be the one that stays on the best! =) The other style that stays on for me is the nun look... which I'd rather not use.

My only other fear now, is that I'm going to get overly obsessed with this and move my vanity from my hair to my scarf... I've been having so much fun discovering how different shapes fold into various things on top of my head. I'm such a loser...

Mary.

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

I asked our priest if it would be offensive to the older women if I started wearing a scarf all of sudden, and he said, no - just do it. Yesterday, I was at the mall, trying out my scarf - just a really big fabric headband. (thought I'd ease into it...) I noticed that it was much easier for myself to notice the thoughts in my mind, because I kept feeling something on my head. I wonder if I'll stop paying attention as I get used to having something on my head.

This is one of those little thought about subjects in Orthodoxy. I don't mean what should or doesn't need to be worn. I mean how what we wear affects our state of mind & heart.

Many women make similar comments about the spiritual affects of head coverings.

In a similar way when as a priest I put on my ryassa to serve Vigil or full vestments for Liturgy you feel different & more concentrated in a certain direction.

So also the monastic who always wears a cassock and head covering of some sort.

What's interesting though is how you actually feel different when dressed as a simple monk from when you add priests' vestments to this.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Elena]

I would just like to ask a few questions, to those who do wear head coverings. I never have, and now I feel I should. But I don't know where to get started. I suppose it'll get easier as I practice. Right now, it takes more time to get something on my head (and keep it there!) than it would to just pin my hair in place and forget about it. I'd like to find something that stays on my head without too many pins. What kind of head coverings do you wear? Do you make your own or do you buy them? What's the best thing to do with your hair - leave it loose, braid it or make a bun?

And to get a little personal - why do you wear them?

Dear Mary,

The issue of headcoverings can be a minefield, I have never understood why some people get so stressed about them. For myself I started to cover my hair in church because I wear hats and scarfs anyway, and to take them off in order to come into church seemed completely insane. I have considered not wearing them because I feel that when we are at church we are supposed try and not draw attention to ourselves and until quite recently I was generaly the only young woman covering her head. However I decided in the end to keep them, obedience to anyone has never been my strong point but at least it reminds me of the loving obedience which I'm aiming for.

On the practical side of things I wear all sorts of things. Large scarfs that do indeed make me look a bit like a Muslim (and have given me the lovely experience at being sworn at in the street), large handerchiefs that just tie under the back of my head, knitted tube things that are elasticated and are like a huge headband and hats of all types. Really it's just what's to hand.

I would only warn against hats with large brims as they can hit the icons when one venerates them or be easily burnt by candles, and headscarfs that are wrapped tightly around ones head as I personaly find they make me too hot and it's very distracting to others if one faints. My hair does whatever fits underneath the best. On occassions with a great deal of venerating I either pin my hair up into a large plaited bun to which I can pin a thin scarf so solidly that I know it won't come off or flap or I use a small scarf I have which is weighted round the edge and then tie it under my hair at he back of my head and the weights insure that it stays down.

This is hardly an inspired post but it's one more persona answering you questions,

Elena.

P.S. Yes the headscaves are more of a Russian thing, in my experience those from the Greek tradition rarely cover their hair in church until they are older.

[Katrina Delsante]

I started wearing a head covering at the beginning of Great Lent last year and it really has made a big difference. I too am somewhat vain about my hair and certainly Great Lent was one of those opportunities to nip that bad habit in the bud.
At first, I was a little uncomfortable. I didn't want people to think I was this super-pious-holier-than-thou type, but now I don't even think about it. If I am rushing into church, which is usually the case with me and the three kids, and it's not on my head yet, I feel very uneasy. My head feels too light and ungrounded almost. It is really one of those things that you have to experience to understand.

I had been using a big scarf tied behind my head but it kept sliding off. I just found at my local SuperTarget for $5.99 a head scarf that is like a headband with a scarf! It's a great deal and they had lots of choices. It was in the hair accessories aisle and not the scarf aisle.

I also had read that article mentioned above about the angels and obediance. Additionally, if I recall correctly, Father Averky of Blessed Memory who used to be a frequent poster on Monachos relayed a story of a woman who had always covered her head in church. At one point in her life she had to receive chemo and was told by the Theotokos that because she had been obedient in covering her head that she would not lose her hair during the treatment. So the obedience doesn't go unnoticed! Forgive me if it was not Father Averky who told that story and someone else. I haven't posted here in a few years...

Katrina

[Tanya Hoadley]

Greetings All,

I never get much housework done in my pajamas and I agree with Father Raphael that what one wears can affect ones focus.

I need all the help I can get, so it's off to the mall for me!

Thank you all,

In Christ,
Tanya

[Kira]

Never having had long hair (ever, due to the fact that hair endings irritate my atopic eczema - I have a short boy-cut) I wonder if headscarves work best when one has longish hair. Short thin hair is slippery and nothing stays on. My hair is also too short for hairpins and they fall off, too....anyway, I have worn scarves when at very conservative Russian churches but all I could notice that they were driving me crazy and were too hot (I am always too hot everywhere) and making my head itch.

I do try to dress for church and wear a long skirt (unless I have to walk a long distance in the snow) and a long-sleeved tunic-type shirt that covers half my butt (more seemly when doing full prostrations, which are done every Sunday before the Eucharist at my Russian church, as is the Russian tradition).

Okay, I have an easily irritated skin so maybe I am a special case with this headscarf thing. I did grow up in Orthodox environment and never wore a scarf though so maybe this has something to do with it, too.

[Mary]

Never having had long hair (ever, due to the fact that hair endings irritate my atopic eczema - I have a short boy-cut) I wonder if headscarves work best when one has longish hair. Short thin hair is slippery and nothing stays on. My hair is also too short for hairpins and they fall off, too....anyway, I have worn scarves when at very conservative Russian churches but all I could notice that they were driving me crazy and were too hot (I am always too hot everywhere) and making my head itch.

Okay, I have an easily irritated skin so maybe I am a special case with this headscarf thing. I did grow up in Orthodox environment and never wore a scarf though so maybe this has something to do with it, too.

Hi Kira,

In my search online for scarves and head gear, I noticed many websites for women who've lost all their hair due to chemotherapy and such. They had some really pretty scarves. They didn't have instructions on their website on how to tie them on - they said they send instructions with their scarves when you purchase them.

Hairpins, by the way, must've been made for sticky hair, because I've never found one that has stayed in my hair! Barrettes stay on my hair and the clips - the kind that are slightly curved and open and close when you bend them one way or the other. But, they slip too.

Perhaps, the thing that Katrina found - a headband with a scarf attached would work well for you. Some women attach a bit of velcro to their scarves =) Or you could wear a crocheted hat that has lots of lacy holes in it so your head doesn't get hot. The fabric I'm using - a soft, drapey, sort of crinkly polyester is working well for me now. It doesn't stick out the sides of my heads like wings, because it falls nicely. Not as slippery as the silky scarves I've seen. Not hot on my head, but then, it's cool weather right now, so I can't really tell.

BTW - I didn't want to make anyone feel like they HAVE to wear scarves. I grew up without them and am very uncomfortable having anything on my head, especially if it doesn't hold itself and makes me feel that if I move my head wrong, or move at all, the whole thing will dismantle and make me look like a clown. If you're doing fine without scarves, don't worry about them. I didn't give them a single thought until a few weeks ago.

About your skin - can you get tea tree oil where you are? I use a lotion for my son - it has tea tree oil in it. Don't use the oil straight - mix it into some of your lotion. Anyway, his skin was bad, bad, bad. I could hear him scratch it at night, like something being scraped away, and he would bleed everytime he did that. I've tried so many things for him, that I"ve lost count. But, really, what it took was a bit of consistency on my part. I put the lotion on him every night and now, there's not an itchy spot on his skin. Been about 2 months - since I've been consistent.

Mary

[Father David Moser]

Never having had long hair (ever, due to the fact that hair endings irritate my atopic eczema - I have a short boy-cut) I wonder if headscarves work best when one has longish hair. Short thin hair is slippery and nothing stays on.

At the risk of repeating myself, I'll only suggest one word - hats.

Fr David Moser

[Kira]

The issue has not really come up. So I am not even sure why I got in this discussion. I used to go to a Greek church where even the old pious ladies did not wear headcovering. Now I am going to a Russian church (in Scandinavia) where my priest (who is a priestmonk who wears a cassock and a hat almost all the time) rolls his eyes on the topic and says he doesn't even look at what people are wearing. I don't really think it is stupid to wear them or semi-monastic dress, either, if one is really pious and feels like it.

So I am going to exit the discussion...sorry, I am not sure why I even joined (I should just go and question myself why I feel the need to poke my nose into things that do not concern me and why I spend my time on the Internet when I should be doing something else. Maybe THIS is the question for me not the hats!).

The hats make my head itch, too. I can't even put any stuff in my hair. So, I am just not gonna wear anything unless I am at some monastery or something. I rarely wear a hat even in cold weather (usually I wear an anorack hood) and am generally too hot everywhere (I consider 50 degrees T-shirt weather and swim in 40-degree seawater).

Thanks for the tea-tree oil tip. It has not worked for me.......My skin was severely damaged by a stint in the hospital and it has been slowly healing over the past 4 1-2 years.......

[Elzabet]

(I should just go and question myself why I feel the need to poke my nose into things that do not concern me and why I spend my time on the Internet when I should be doing something else. Maybe THIS is the question for me not the hats!).

Me too! :o)

[Tanya Hoadley]

Dear Elzabet and Kira,

For what it's worth, your contributions to this discussion have been of benefit to me. Thank you!

In Christ,
Tanya

[Elzabet]

Did you find a place to get your scarves? I get mine from a couple of places online I can share with you if you like.

[Tanya Hoadley]

Dear Elzabet,

I found a few scarves suitable for the cold weather months, but nothing for the summer. I would appreciate any sources you might have.

Thanx,
Tanya

[Elzabet]

Tznius (http://www.tznius.com/) and Modestworld (http://www.modestworld.com/scarves.html) have excellent choices, good prices and tying guides which are immensely helpful.

For the longest time I wore baseball caps and bandanas and these little triangle things so as to avoid calling attention to myself because the covering was also a modesty/submission to authority/pride issue for me. I've been less than modest in the past and so not wanting to call attention to myself was a huge deal. Then I realized how impractical it was to wear a baseball cap to church when a simple white scarf would do.

[Mary]

Tznius (http://www.tznius.com/) and Modestworld (http://www.modestworld.com/scarves.html) have excellent choices, good prices and tying guides which are immensely helpful.

For the longest time I wore baseball caps and bandanas and these little triangle things so as to avoid calling attention to myself because the covering was also a modesty/submission to authority/pride issue for me. I've been less than modest in the past and so not wanting to call attention to myself was a huge deal. Then I realized how impractical it was to wear a baseball cap to church when a simple white scarf would do.

Those are exquisite! Which kinds have you tried? I wonder if the larger ones - that they wrap around and turn into a bun! - are they heavy? I might have to get a whole knew set of nice dresses to wear with those! Somehow, they dont' look like they'll match a pair of jeans or denim jumpers and t-shirts.

Too many choices confuse me. Perhaps I should just join a monastery so I won't have to think about what to wear! =)

Fr David, please forgive me for seeming to ignore you and not willingly accepting the hat option. I'm not just looking for something to wear to church or during main prayer times at home. I was also looking for something simple and practical to wear all the time. I can't see how I can cook in the kitchen or clean the bathroom with a hat on my head. I do agree with you, that hats are simple in that they're easy to put on, acceptable, and they stay in place with little effort. And... I don't like baseball caps.

It seems interesting to me that those who do wear head coverings are afraid of drawing attention to themselves. That's what I was concerned about as well. But logically, isnt' that the way we should feel if we were dressed inappropriately? I wonder if this is similar to what someone said about shame - you feel shame when you confess your sins, but really, you shouldn't. Rather you should feel shame when you commit the sin, and yet, you don't. (Sorry, terribly paraphrased. I read it somewhere, but I don't know where).

Anyway, maybe this feeling of not wanting to draw attention to ourselves, is in this case, just Satan trying make it really hard for us to be obedient? He wouldn't be able to do that if there was a universal Church rule about what we should wear. But, since it's been left to us to decide, and we don't want to appear more pious than others - because we're not, it seems to complicate things!

I wish covering heads could be done in secret - like fasting! =)

Mary

[Father David Moser]

Fr David, please forgive me for seeming to ignore you and not willingly accepting the hat option.

My dear, it was only a suggested alternative. I only offer it for your consideration when and if it is appropriate. There is nothing to forgive really, but of course you have my forgiveness for what its worth. The only reason that I brought that option up in the first place is that whenever these discussions pop up (on the internet or otherwise) it is something that no one ever considers. There is all this talk about scarves and shawls and so on - but never about hats. (Oh, and while I'm thinking of it - how about hoodies?) Sometimes it is an easier choice for some people. I also offer it to avoid the rut that sometimes occurs about the "right kind of scarf" or whatever (yes, I've seen that discussion too). So just the fact that you recognize the option is sufficient considertion.

Also, while I'm thinking of it - I would similarly like to offer apologies to Kira for assuming that you were looking for a way to solve the problem of your tactile sensitivity rather than simply explaining your own situation. If I sounded like I was demanding that you accept a certain course of behavior in this matter, I apologize - that was not my intent. Certainly in this (and other matters which are pastoral in nature) you should follow the advice of your own parish priest - not some foolish priest posting on the internet.


Fr David Moser

[John Charmley]

(Oh, and while I'm thinking of it - how about hoodies?)

Dear Fr. David,

Excellent posts here, but on this point it might be noted, for any visitors to the UK, that some local councils have banned the wearing of 'hoodies', which have been demonised by some of our politicians here in the UK with nothing better to do!

In Christ,


John

[Tanya Hoadley]

Dear Elzabet,

Thanx for the linx! And John, I couldn't help but laugh about the status of hoodies in the UK. Apparently things are going so well there that politicians have nothing better to concern themselves with than being clothing police ;)
Hat's off to them? (I'm sorry, exceedingly cheezy pun but utterly irresistable)

Tanya

[Elena]

The changing status of hoodies and hats in the UK is extreamly frustrating, but far more worrying is the changing attitude to wearing either in Church. Obviously not within the Orthodox church but even in Roman Catholic churches I have been asked to remove my hat. On one occassion (protestant church) someone even knocked it off my head and accused me of disrepect. It just goes to show when visiting other places of worship one can't assume much.

On a more practical note I would suggest just looking at Muslim websites, for example an American friend gave me some cotton tubes and 'underscarfs' from veiledbydesign.com. Orginaly it felt odd getting stuff from an islamic website but the things stay on, don't make me hot and come in any colour you want.

[Elzabet]

Those are exquisite! Which kinds have you tried? I wonder if the larger ones - that they wrap around and turn into a bun! - are they heavy? I might have to get a whole knew set of nice dresses to wear with those! Somehow, they dont' look like they'll match a pair of jeans or denim jumpers and t-shirts.

Too many choices confuse me. Perhaps I should just join a monastery so I won't have to think about what to wear! =)

I've tried several of the rectangular ones--some are no longer sold there. I guess they ran out. The square and triangular ones are easiest to tie, IMO. I wear them with just about anything--jeans to dressy dressy outfits--and they aren't hot. They're made in Israel so they breathe very well in summer and are nice and cozy in winter.


It seems interesting to me that those who do wear head coverings are afraid of drawing attention to themselves. That's what I was concerned about as well. But logically, isnt' that the way we should feel if we were dressed inappropriately? I wonder if this is similar to what someone said about shame - you feel shame when you confess your sins, but really, you shouldn't. Rather you should feel shame when you commit the sin, and yet, you don't. (Sorry, terribly paraphrased. I read it somewhere, but I don't know where).

Anyway, maybe this feeling of not wanting to draw attention to ourselves, is in this case, just Satan trying make it really hard for us to be obedient? He wouldn't be able to do that if there was a universal Church rule about what we should wear. But, since it's been left to us to decide, and we don't want to appear more pious than others - because we're not, it seems to complicate things!
Mary

Yes, definitely. Once I got past that part the scarf just became part of me. It is a reminder for me that I am under authority and not for anyone else. Since that is my weak area that is where I fall most often and where I need my "sign". I just had to make sure that I didn't take my "sign" and turn it into something it was not intended to be--an idol.

[Sunny]

I'm going to jump in here too. I have REALLY enjoyed this thread and all of you ladies sound like alot of fun!
I have very short hair also because of a neck injury. I can't wear anything remotely heavy on my head-any kind of hat is too heavy. What I ended up doing is going to a fabric store and finding a few colors of soft feeling, open weave, light weight cotton fabric and bought a yard of it to play with. I sewed a very loose tube, and since I'm not a gifted sewer, I had to do it many times to get it right for my head size. I wear it loosely around my neck and then when I pull it up and on, I just pull the top part up and forward until I feel it will stay put. The front under my chin drapes loosely and falls on my neck. It is loose so it is extremely comfortable and covers the side of my face just alittle which I like. I just cut a wide rectangle out of the fabric and stitched it together so it just has one seam. If you buy a cotton lace it works great.
It also doesn't seem to fall off-maybe because it's lace.
Best wishes!
Sunny

[Fr Seraphim (Black)]

I must say I have really enjoyed and benefited from having a look at this thread. After just over four years in Romania, this conversation here is quite interesting. Personally, I have NEVER seen a woman, even a young girl in Church (in Romania) without her head covered. It would be considered absolutely out of the question to enter the house of God inappropriately prepared (interiorly) and exterioraly - for men this means, proper pants, and long sleeve shirts, and for women, skirts (never pants) and head scarves.

Older woman always wear head scarves - whether out shopping, or at home.

I was somewhat intrigued by Andreas' letter from Russia on another thread, about a notice regarding women's attire, lipstick, coloured hair etc. - and the Western response to it, especially certain people in England.

In Romanian monasteries, it is not just women who are on the list, men are there as well! Police officers (most of whom are involved in corruption), divorce lawyers (because they earn their living off the suffering of others) etc. Quite a lengthy list.

As for Holy Communion, one never approaches without having attended Vespers, and Confession. How often is this applied here?

I lived for two months at the Monastery of St. George the Great Martyr, on the island of Prinkipos, off of Constantinople - Agia Sophia is clearly seen, day and night!

It is heavily frequented by pilgrims - especially on the Monastery Feast Day, September 24th, when upwards of 20,000 pilgrims make the trek up the mountain - there is no motorized transport on the island (and it is very hot!)

For here at the Monastery is a miracle-working icon of St. George (which is actually a copy) - the original is at the Patriarchate.

I mention this, because the vast number of pilgrims are Muslim. With the Muslim women we had absolutely no problem with the dress code. A Muslim women would never enter a place of worship without proper headdress.

On the contrary, it was the Greek women (from Greece, not Turkey) with whom we had the most incredible confrontations. One would think they were going for a day at the beach.

We had skirts, long sleeve blouses, and head coverings for them, if they came unprepared - BUT to get them to put them on...

[John Charmley]

I was somewhat intrigued by Andreas' letter from Russia on another thread, about a notice regarding women's attire, lipstick, coloured hair etc. - and the Western response to it, especially certain people in England.


Dear Fr. Seraphim,

As one of those 'certain people' from England, my reaction was not to the request to adopt appropriate attire, but to the manner in which it was expressed.

It seemed to clash with the words Our Lord spoke in John 13:34-35

34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another.
35 By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.

Of course, if one really believes that any women who wears make-up is going to Hell, then it is indeed a great act of love to warn them of the consequence of their action. The concept of the scope of Christ's words and His love that this involves does, I confess, disturb me. It looks too disturbingly like the sort of thing Our Lord constantly had cause to condemn in such words as those in Matthew 15:3

3 He answered and said to them, Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition?

God commands us to love one another, so why do so many of us insist on putting our own local tradition above His commands?

Your list of the others barred by the Rumanian Monks also sits but poorly with the attitude of Our Lord Himself as reported in Matthew 9:10-13

10 Now it happened, as Jesus sat at the table in the house, that behold, many tax collectors and sinners came and sat down with Him and His disciples.
11 And when the Pharisees saw it, they said to His disciples, Why does your Teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?
12 When Jesus heard that, He said to them, Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick.
13 But go and learn what this means: `I desire mercy and not sacrifice.' For I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.'


Holy though the Monks are, their attitude smacks of those who were are told criticised Our Lord and said censoriously:

19 The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, `Look, a glutton and a winebibber, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!' But wisdom is justified by her children. [Matthew 11:19]

Father, you and your words here bring so much to so many of us, whether you know it or not, and we have all learned much from your wise posts, so I pray forgiveness for my presumption in questioning what you have written, but I do so not as an act of my will, but out of concern for what He who saves us taught; He knows how unworthy I am, and if I have transgressed in saying these things, then I beg for pardon.

In Christ,

John

[Trudy]

This has to be the most civil thread on head coverings I've ever read! Wonderful! I truly appreciate what all have written.

This issue is something that has been gnawing at me for some time. A Matushka who attends our parish ALWAYS wears a hat and they are simply lovely, not to mention they always match her outfit! She is such a wonderful woman.

By her action and the moving of my own heart, I feel moved to cover my head while in prayer. As someone mentioned in another post, I am concerned about the attention it will draw to myself and the questions it will raise, especially with my husband who is not Orthodox. No one at our parish, other than Matushka, wears a head covering of any kind.

I think I shall work up my courage and wear one tomorrow. Thank you ladies for giving me the courage.

In Christ, Athanasia

[Tanya Hoadley]

Dear Athanasia,

Today is going to be my first day wearing a head covering too! I have the same fears about drawing attention to myself as well. I think we'll be just fine! (I'll keep you in my prayers during Liturgy)

Your sister in Christ,
Tanya

[Fr Seraphim (Black)]

Dear John,

Quoting from Fr. Sophrony he says:

"If the love commanded of us in the Gospel were natural to us in our fallen state, it would have been unnecessary to bid us 'Love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind...Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself' [Matthew 22:37-39]. When that love touches the heart, our spirit in Light beholds God, and lives by Him and in Him. He surpasses all human thought. Not a single one of our abstract conceptions is applicable to Him. He - lives. His might is incalculable, His love inscrutable. To dwell with him is ineffable riches."

"...It is a great deprivation to be blind. But there is no greater affliction, no more bitter pain, than not to know God."

"Mankind, multi-hypostatic, manifests the image of the Holy Trinity: one nature in a plurality of personae. But each one of us individually bears within himself the image of the only-begotten Son, and our salvation lies in receiving 'the adoption of sons' [cf. Gal. 4:5] to the Father.

"To become like Jesus Christ it is essential to meet Him as Persona, to keep the commandments He gave us; for no one can become a person-hypostasis, the bearer of Divine eternity, except through the Son 'beloved' of the Father. And to Him we sing praises daily, together with His Eternal Father and the Holy Spirit proceeding from the Father.

"I is a magnificent word. It signifies persona. Its principal ingredient is love, that opens out, first and foremost, to God. This I does not live in a convulsion of egoistic concentration on self. Created by the will of God the Creator from 'nothing', if wrapped up in self it will continue in its nothingness. The love towards God commanded of us by Christ, which entails hating oneself and renouncing all emotional and fleshly ties, draws the spirit of man into the expanses of Divine eternity [Luke 14: 26-27 and 33; John 12:25; Matthew 16:25]. This kind of love is an attribute of Divinity. When the force of it touches the human heart, it opens the heart to infinity, bestows the joy of lovingly embracing all creation, the whole world. The fulness of imperishable love for God and our neighbour is connected in some marvellous fashion with a feeling of repulsion for oneself amounting to hatred. But this is a sacred hatred, God's gift to us. Through it we overcome our death, caused by the fall of Adam. Through it we are effectively introduced into eternity, since this love is only possible if God Himself unites with us and becomes our life.

"Had the Lord Jesus not revealed this astonishing mystery to us, no mortal could have invented such a paradox - detest yourself because of love for God, and you will embrace all that exists with your love! And God, and all the riches of being created by Him, will become the content of your life! The I is forgotten in the transport of love for the God of love but nevertheless it is this I that blissfully contains in itself all heaven and earth.

"...'In those days', when the time of His sufferings in Gethsemane and on Golgotha was drawing nigh, He began to concentrate on the act of self-emptying that lay before Him as man. 'Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done...and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling to the ground' [Luke 22:42-44]. When we are confronted with the commandment to love Christ to the point of hating ourselves [Luke 14:26-27 and 33] and everything we have in the world, we sometimes come near to the danger of exclaiming like some of His disciples, 'This is a hard saying; who can hear it?'. To which the Lord made answer, 'No man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father'...And, 'from that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him'. But Peter felt the power of Christ's utterance - 'Thou hast the words of eternal life', he declared [cf. John 6:60-68].

'God is love...love made perfect that we may have boldness in the day of judgement: because AS HE IS, so are we in this world' . The 'hate' of which the Lord of love speaks, in its essence is the plentitude of God's kenotic love. Love proceeding from the Father, draws us to follow Christ. Seeing ourselves held fast in the bonds of egoism and incapable of following Him, we hate ourselves. The pain of this hallowed loathing casts us beyond the bounds of time and space, until only the driving force of love remains - all else vanishes. In such prayer must the [I]persona pray, as reflection and image of Christ praying in Gethsemane.

"...All our striving is concerned with acquiring the love commanded of us by Christ. When this spirit of Christ-like love enters within us our soul thirsts for the salvation of all people. We are appalled that by no means everyone wishes for himself what we ask for all in our prayers. Worse, we often meet with refusal, even hostility. How can people be saved when there is such perversion? We live in an age, the events of which make the tragedy of our fall more and more evident. To take my own life: for over half a century I have prayed, sometimes weeping bitter tears, sometimes in wild despair, for the peace of the world and the salvation, if it be possible, of all. And what do you suppose? To this hour, in my old age, I see evil ever increasing...we are nonplussed by the utterly irrational character of the happenings of our time.

We all live under the Fall, the consequences of which are utterly insurmountable without the confession of the Divinity of Christ. We are all ill. Only within the Life in Christ which alone is found in His Holy Orthodox Church has Christ granted us the Holy Sacraments which heal us.

Without the sacred mystery of obedience to the Church, how can we find our way? Can we presume that with a fallen intellect to find it of our own accord?

No one can decide the eternal fate of the human person except God.

Yet, if we approach the Holy Mysteries clothed in the spirit of this age, how can we hope to be counted worthy?

We must humble ourselves utterly, and in the moment of our deepest despair raise our head and look upon the tender, loving Face of Him Who gave His Life that we might have Life.

This Life is found in Christ. And Christ is found only in His Holy Church.

May our Lord Jesus Christ of Nazareth and His Most Pure Mother with all the Heavenly Hosts and the company of the Saints be with us in this dark and troubled time.

May our tears be turned into prayer of joy for all humankind.

[John Charmley]

Dear Fr. Seraphim,

Thank you for sharing this wisdom with us.

When I read this passage for all our times

To take my own life: for over half a century I have prayed, sometimes weeping bitter tears, sometimes in wild despair, for the peace of the world and the salvation, if it be possible, of all. And what do you suppose? To this hour, in my old age, I see evil ever increasing...we are nonplussed by the utterly irrational character of the happenings of our time
I am reminded of our call to Faith, and of what St, John Chysostom wrote in Homily 18 on the Gospel according to St. John:


For “the Lamb” declares both these things. And he said not, “Who shall take,” or
“Who hath taken”; but, “Who taketh away the sins of the world”; because
this He ever doth. He took them not then only when He suffered, but from
that time even to the present doth He take them away, not being
repeatedly crucified, (for He offered One Sacrifice for sins,) but by that
One continually purging them. As then THE WORD shows us His
pre-eminence, and THE SON His superiority in comparison with others, so
“The Lamb, The Christ, that Prophet, the True Light, the Good
Shepherd,” and whatever other names are applied to Him with the addition
of the article, mark a great difference. For there were many” Lambs,” and”
Prophets,” and “Christs,” and “sons,” but from all these John separates
Him by a wide interval. And this he secured not by the article only, but by
the addition of “Only-Begotten”; for He had nothing in common with the
creation.

As you say it comes down to obedience to the Word of Our Lord. If I am being told that the one true Church teaches that women who wear make up lose thereby the hope of salvation, then I go away, a sadder man.

May the angels watch over you at this hour in particular, Father, you are in my unworthy prayers as you undergo your ordeal by hospital,


In Christ,


John

[Fr Seraphim (Black)]

Sadly, John it seems you have not comprehended my post, (over which I spent most of the very early morning hours here in Canada hoping with the utmost sincerety to be of some help).

Yet where exactly do I say?:

'If I am being told that the one true Church teaches that women who wear makeup lose thereby the hope of salvation, then I go away a sadder man.'

Did I not rather say:

'No one decides the eternal fate of the human person except God.'

In reference to your Post #13 on Andreas' thread where you quote Matthew 22:37-40, Fr. Sophrony writes:

"If the love commanded of us in the Gospel were natural to us in our fallen state, it would have been unnecessary to bid us 'Love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind...Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself."

I remain very grateful for your prayers. Please accept my poor prayers.

[John Charmley]

Dear Fr. Seraphim,

Please forgive my slowness.

There is much to ponder in what you write - and much of it timely for me.

On the single point of that monastic notice it was the presumption in saying what it stated about salvation that I was questioning - I was not implying that you had defended the sentiment; I was enquiring whether it could be seen as expressing Christian love, and whether it was seemly?

I am grateful to you for taking the time to provide this poor sinner with such spiritual food, and if I were granted another lifetime it would scarce be enough to digest it; but the seed grows in the darkness, though the darkness comprehends it not. It is because so much of my spiritual life has been passed away from the light of the true Church that I stumble so in its flashes of illumination.

I am grateful to you for your time - not least now, and I see in it what is said in 1 John 4:7-13

7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God.
8 He who does not love does not know God, for God is love.
9 In this the love of God was manifested toward us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him.
10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another.

Without that great Advocate (1 John 2:2) I could not presume to hope - and I take your words in the light of 1 John 2:1 - and am grateful for them.

We are all, we know, great sinners, but with such counsel, the road is signed, and that you should pray for me is so far beyond any merits I have that I am overwhelmed.

My unworthy prayers remain with you - ordeal by modern hospital is, as I know to my cost, a trial indeed.

In Christ,

John

[Fr Seraphim (Black)]

Dear John,

Your post has brought me great peace - I agree the notice on the monastery porch in Russia was beyond the pale.

Ah, slowly, slowly we all more or less, by God's great love, keep on.

I remember I was two months solid in the Royal London Hospital in the summer of 1978 - it rained every single day - kyrie eleison.

Let us remember one another before our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, beseeching His mercy!

[Trudy]

Dear Tanya,

You humble me with your prayers and I am most grateful for them.

Truly God heard them so that my response to the one 'very offensive' comment that was given by an older man, as I returned to the choir loft after receiving the precious Body & Blood of our Savior, was not anger. He asked me, "Where is your burka?" while two other men chuckled at his comment. (Though I would be lying if I said I didn't get angry at all, for I did after I left church for the day.)

The other comments I received, all from women, were very special. Two women complimented me on how pretty the scarf was. Another woman who is the same age as I said she has enjoyed wearing a head covering (though I've never seen her in one). Perhaps she will begin again.

Another woman who is receiving chemotherapy for breast cancer told me all her hair has fallen out and had on a wig. She said she may wear a hat or even a scarf. I told her I would make sure to wear one all the time too so she didn't feel like she stood out from the rest. She smiled and hugged me.

The best comment was from an elderly lady; a sweet and kind woman. She whispered in my ear after venerating the cross, "It's nice to see you with a head covering. I hope I see it again." And her mother taught her, "Once you are married, you always cover your head. It is tradition and seemly."

I responded, "Yes, you'll see it again." Then I got a twinkle in my eye and said, "If married women are to cover their heads, where is yours?" To which she smiled at me and walked away with a twinkle in her eye.

I wonder if I'll see her with a head covering next week?

Faithfully yours,
Athanasia

[Mary]

Wow! What a wonderful day you've had Athanasia! I'm glad we've been able to draw courage from each other to obey. I too wore a scarf today, and it was big enough to leave no doubt as to the fact that it was a scarf - unlike last week, when I wore a large fabric headband.

I did practice during the week - we had an Akathist to the Holy Cross on Friday, and there weren't too many others who showed up to that. At Great Vespers last night, there were more people, but not as many as Divine Liturgy this morning. I received no comments, positive or negative. One lady did look at me with surprise but she said it was because my hair was very short. I wanted to ask her if she was sure it wasn't my scarf that made her look at me twice, but I thought I'd just let it go. =)

I have been wearing my scarf all day, every day, to get used to it, so I feel normal when I wear it to church. Yesterday, we went to my husband's family get-together, and I chose not to wear it, but I felt quite odd. I'm even getting faster at tying it on!


I must say I have really enjoyed and benefited from having a look at this thread. After just over four years in Romania, this conversation here is quite interesting. Personally, I have NEVER seen a woman, even a young girl in Church (in Romania) without her head covered. It would be considered absolutely out of the question to enter the house of God inappropriately prepared (interiorly) and exterioraly - for men this means, proper pants, and long sleeve shirts, and for women, skirts (never pants) and head scarves.

Older woman always wear head scarves - whether out shopping, or at home.



I mention this, because the vast number of pilgrims are Muslim. With the Muslim women we had absolutely no problem with the dress code. A Muslim women would never enter a place of worship without proper headdress.

On the contrary, it was the Greek women (from Greece, not Turkey) with whom we had the most incredible confrontations. One would think they were going for a day at the beach.

We had skirts, long sleeve blouses, and head coverings for them, if they came unprepared - BUT to get them to put them on...

Fr Seraphim, most of what you write is way beyond this small mind, but I can talk about clothes! =) I grew up in Ethiopia, and like the Romanians, Ethiopian women never left their homes without their heads covered. In fact they always wore a scarf, and they covered their heads & shoulders with a lovely cotton shawl when they went out. Women didn't wear pants, always dresses. Even as the dress codes in the cities loosened up and more young women started to wear pants, they still had their head scarves on all day, and the extra shawls when they went out.

I was young then, and all this amused me a lot. I never could understand why they'd go to all the trouble of curling their hair or braiding it so prettily, just to cover it up all day in a scarf. Some even slept with their scarves on. Every once in a while, a fight would break out in the neighborhood, and everyone would stop what they're doing to watch the two women fist it out. The fight usually ended when one of the women got a hold of the other woman's scarf and pulled it off. That, seemed to be more humiliating than getting into a fist fight in public!

I am originally from India. (the south). Women wear sarees. They are completely covered to their toes, and the last part of the saree that goes over their shoulder flows out like a cape, which they use as a shawl, and as a headcovering when they enter places of worship. My only problem with the saree - it comes in two pieces - the short, short blouse, and the skirt. The blouse doesn't reach the skirt, so there's uncoverd space in the middle. Personally, I'd rather my legs show than my tummy. But to Indian women, it is immodest to show legs.

In the north, they were salwars - a dress with loose pants under, so everything, even bellies are covered. But there's no rules about necklines and to be honest, I'd rather have my arms show than...

All this to say... I'd like to think, most women in the general population of any culture do not dress to provoke. They wear what they're comfortable with, what's acceptable in their own societies. Why I developed a different sense of what is modest, I do not know. I only know that I can't wear sarees, but my mom will never wear a dress. She feels modest in a saree, with her legs covered, I feel modest in a dress, with my belly covered.

But a head covering? Well - if I were an Ethiopian or a Romanian or a muslim or an orthodox jew, it wont' be an issue. But our Greek sisters couldn't submit without a fight. Just like - I wouldnt' put up a fight to wear a dress, but I would go into a fit if I were forced to wear a saree - which I had to do while I was in nursing school because that was our uniform!

Not excusing those who won't submit to dress codes in churches and monasteries. But I've noticed that people, even christians, are more willing to submit to rules imposed on them by non-Christians, than by Christians. Somehow, there seems to be this underlying feeling that Christians have no right to make rules, because if they do, they're being narrowminded and exclusivistic and all other such nice things. I'll bet they wouldn't have had any problem with any kind of dress codes imposed on them by any other religious place!

At the Family gathering yesterday, my husband's jewish brother in law was talking about a man who entered a synagogue with his wife and deliberately took her to the men's side - because he just wanted to provoke the rabbi. The rabbi told him, that as the guest, he was obligated to obey the rules, so he could either let his wife go to the women's side or leave. I think he left. BUT - if this were a Church... I'l bet he'd have sued later on, and gotten away with it too!

Please forgive me, I've gone on and on! Life is never simple, but I think it gets more complicated when you're a Christian.

Mary

[Tanya Hoadley]

Dear Athanasia,

How wonderful! I'm glad to hear you had a predominantly positive response from those around you. Perhaps many women have the same fear of standing out and being perceived as "holier than thou". But thru your fearlessness you have broken the ice!

My biggest fear was how my brother would react. ( He can't help but notice me as I stand next to him in the choir) My brother does like to tease me...alot! But not a peep or a sideways glance.

The blessing I received today was getting my voice back. I had been struggling along the past few months with colds, bronchitis, etc. Today I was able to hit those high notes (which really aren't high at all.. I sing tenor) and not screach like a dying fledgling.

If our choir director should take notice, I'm sure she would insist on me covering my head before stepping foot in the choir loft. ;)

In Christ,
Tanya

[Mary]

On a more practical note I would suggest just looking at Muslim websites, for example an American friend gave me some cotton tubes and 'underscarfs' from veiledbydesign.com. Orginaly it felt odd getting stuff from an islamic website but the things stay on, don't make me hot and come in any colour you want.

Thanks for the tip Elena! I just orderd a couple of underscarves from them. They were cheaper than the snoods at Modestworld. But I liked the scarves at Modest world better, so I ordered one of each shape. Thankfully, they still had some that were on sale, in the colors that I like. I really liked their selection of soft hats too! Really delightful! Perhaps, someday, I might even try out a hat! =)


I sewed a very loose tube, and since I'm not a gifted sewer, I had to do it many times to get it right for my head size. I wear it loosely around my neck and then when I pull it up and on, I just pull the top part up and forward until I feel it will stay put. The front under my chin drapes loosely and falls on my neck.

Good for you Sunny! I wonder if the tube you made is similar to the ones they sell on veiledbydesign.com. Perhaps I'll make my own first, like you did.

Tanya - so glad your brother didnt' tease you! =) Our choir director's name is Tanya. I kept thinking you were her, but I see that you're not, since you're not directing. She sings tenor too.

Mary

[Trudy]

How wonderful! I'm glad to hear you had a predominantly positive response from those around you.

Dear Mary & Tanya,

Yes, it was a largely positive response. It is on that which I must dwell. Unfortunately, it is usually the negative which gnaws at me. But, then again, I must consider the source I guess.

I'll let you all know what happens next week if anything.

~Athanasia

[Fr Seraphim (Black)]

Dear John,

Just to be clear, the notice in the Romanian monastery was regarding those who may/may not receive Holy Communion - naturally the Sacrament of Confession and Absolution and the blessing of the Spiritual Father are necessary, and thus may free those men whose occupations are subject to stipulation - it was not a reference to Matthew 9: 10-13.

Also, my personal experience is that it is of benefit for North Americans and Western Europeans (Orthodox or non-Orthodox) to visit countries such as Greece, Bulgaria, Serbia, Romania etc., where to get to a Protestant church involves a six hour car journey. And especially in Romania, you will find a far different ethos in Orthodox parish churches than I have experienced here. I also found it beneficial for non-Orthodox pilgrims on the Holy Mountain to find that their 'exalted' status in the West was not so 'exalted' on the Holy Mountain.

Nevertheless, it pains me that my country of birth, Canada, seems to be at the vanguard of the most peculiar experiment in multi-culturalism I have ever seen.

When I was younger, at school, we began the day with the Lord's Prayer. This is now forbidden by law.

Also, in my adolescent years, again at school, males were forbidden to wear bluejeans.

The recent cover of Canada's leading newsmagazine, has the title: 'Why do we dress our daughters like shanks?'

I actually did not know what the word 'shank' meant, so I asked, and I was told it is another term for prostitute, or slut. The article addresses the fashions popular for girls from the ages of 6 to 12 years of age. It is very disturbing.

Like other countries we are beseiged with same sex unions, the Bishop of the Anglican Church in the States is a women, here in Canada, many Anglican parishes perform same sex 'marriages'. It is a spiritual wasteland.

Dear Trudy,

I am saddened by the comments you had to endure, especially as they came just after receiving the Holy Mysteries.

For Orthodox men to make reference to a burqa is not only offensive in the extreme, it is incorrect - a burqa is the mode of dress seen in Afganistan - it is not to be confused with a hijab. These men would benefit with a pilgrimage to Romania.

Dear Mary,

Thankyou for your comments.

Which part of southern India are you from. I spent two years in India, much of the time in Kerela.

[John Charmley]

Dear Fr. Seraphim,

Many thanks for your thoughtful response; it would seem from the response of Andreas' friends in Moscow that the notice went rather further than you suppose, but if it did say what you say, then I see the point of it.

When you write

Nevertheless, it pains me that my country of birth, Canada, seems to be at the vanguard of the most peculiar experiment in multi-culturalism I have ever seen.

alas, you claim too much discredit for Canada. All the examples you cite could be from the UK, where we also have a government that is about to make something called 'religious discrimination' a crime; so, if a publisher, for example, wishes not to accept a commission from a 'gay magazine' on the ground of Christian conscience, he might find himself prosecuted! We had a case here recently of £10,000 being spent by the police in prosecuting a Christian couple who distributed leaflets condemning sodomy at a 'gay rally' - fortunately, the court was sensible and dismissed it.

To call this a 'spiritual wasteland' does it too much honour - wastelands are sterile places - it is more like a spiritual sewer. But the Church has seen this so many times in its history, and its timescale is not our own, so we should not give in to the temptations of despair.

All of this the Holy Apostle Paul foresaw in 2 Timothy 3:12-17, and 2 Timothy 4:1-5:

12 Yes, and all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution. 13 But evil men and impostors will grow worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived. 14 But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
4:1 I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom: 2 Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables. 5 But you be watchful in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.

And this last is what, each in our own way, we must do.

May He bless you, Father, as you go through your ordeal,

In Christ,

John

[Mary]

For Orthodox men to make reference to a burqa is not only offensive in the extreme, it is incorrect - a burqa is the mode of dress seen in Afganistan - it is not to be confused with a hijab. These men would benefit with a pilgrimage to Romania.

Dear Mary,

Thankyou for your comments.

Which part of southern India are you from. I spent two years in India, much of the time in Kerela.

Dear Fr Seraphim,

You seem to have been all over the world! Thanks for sharing what the burqa is. I had no idea. That should help me to remember to pray for all of my sisters who are venturing out into the world of headcoverings!

I am from Tamil Nadu. I was in Madurai for 4 years, doing my RN training. That was the longest time I spent in India. Before that, we just visited relatives in India during the summer. Dad & Mom worked in Ethiopia as teachers. I couldn't believe I lived in a country full of orthodox people and couldn't care less!

God has been very good to me.

In Christ,

Mary.

[Elzabet]

I'm just getting back to this thread. I'm glad you all had (mostly) positive responses to the covering thing. It's been a while since I began so I suppose I've forgotten how daunting it was to begin. I never thought about wearing the Muslim snoods. I'm not comfy purchasing from a Muslim site but if it worked for you, great!

[Fr Seraphim (Black)]

Dear Mary,

Kerela is the state beside Tamil Nadu and is home to the largest groups of Christians in India.

Tradition states that it was evangelized by the Apostle Thomas.

There is an annual pilgrimage to a mountain top where he is said to have preached. I made the climb, barefoot, as was my custom while in India (perhaps a case of zeal not according to knowledge). The climb was effortless but the sun...kyrie eleison. Nevertheless, the sunset over the Arabian Sea is a wonderful memory.

Kerela is home to Syrian Orthodox, Jacobites, Roman Catholics and Anglicans, many of whom have their major seminaries in Kottayam.

Truly an amazing country. A wonder to behold.

Having lived in Romania for so many years, I find the 'difficulty' for North American Orthodox a little hard to comprehend. Afterall, we have the witness of the Mother of God and Mother Alexandra's intimate knowlege and exegisis of the Angels is marvellous. I had the great blessing to meet her at her Monastery in Pennsylvannia. She was, as you may know the former Princess Illena of Romania. She had her first visitation of angels while just a young girl.

[Trudy]

Mother Alexandra's intimate knowlege and exegisis of the Angels is marvellous. I had the great blessing to meet her at her Monastery in Pennsylvannia. She was, as you may know the former Princess Illena of Romania. She had her first visitation of angels while just a young girl.

The Abbess of the monastery Father Seraphim mentioned, Mother Christofora, was guest lecturer at a woman's conference at St. Tikhon's in South Canaan, PA this past August. I was blessed to hear her speak. Afterwards, she passed out, to only a few, a copy of a booklet written by Mother Alexandra, Our Father: Meditations on The Lord's Prayer. It is a wonderful booklet and I carry it with me to read during a quiet moment.

Athanasia

[Mary]

Dear Mary,

Kerela is the state beside Tamil Nadu and is home to the largest groups of Christians in India.

Tradition states that it was evangelized by the Apostle Thomas.

There is an annual pilgrimage to a mountain top where he is said to have preached. I made the climb, barefoot, as was my custom while in India (perhaps a case of zeal not according to knowledge). The climb was effortless but the sun...kyrie eleison. Nevertheless, the sunset over the Arabian Sea is a wonderful memory.

Kerela is home to Syrian Orthodox, Jacobites, Roman Catholics and Anglicans, many of whom have their major seminaries in Kottayam.

Truly an amazing country. A wonder to behold.

Having lived in Romania for so many years, I find the 'difficulty' for North American Orthodox a little hard to comprehend.

Dear Fr Seraphim,

I have never been to Kerala, although it was so close. I do, however, know many people from there. None of them were orthodox.

And, I think going barefoot in India is a bit extreme! =) But then, I don't go barefoot anywhere, so I wouldn't know. I tried once, because the grass was so tempting, but there were bees too, that my feet found, before my eyes did! That was the end of my barefooted adventures.

I suppose, I understand your difficulty in understanding the North American mind. Mine is the reverse. I have lost touch with my Eastern mind, and I'm finding that I need to re-learn much. For instance, I had forgotten that stern language is necessary in the East, in order for the importance of your message to be understood. Saying "Please" is a 'weakness' and it's like begging. Parents never make requests of their kids with a 'please'.

But I say 'Please' and 'Thank you' when speaking to my kids. I expect them to speak to me politely, and I hope they'll learn better by watching my example. I also ask for their forgiveness when I wrong them. But, I've noticed that my kids respond quicker if I yell at them. Perhaps they're more Indian than I am! That puts me in a bind, because I don't like yelling. I'd rather communicate like a civil human being. It's so hard to find and maintain a balance!


Afterall, we have the witness of the Mother of God and Mother Alexandra's intimate knowlege and exegisis of the Angels is marvellous. I had the great blessing to meet her at her Monastery in Pennsylvannia. She was, as you may know the former Princess Illena of Romania. She had her first visitation of angels while just a young girl

I'm afraid you've totally lost me here. I do not know anything about Mother Alexandra and her exegisis of the Angels. I hope you'll have time to enlighten me!


I never thought about wearing the Muslim snoods. I'm not comfy purchasing from a Muslim site but if it worked for you, great!

Dear Elzabet,

I wasn't too sure about it either. But it seemed the best choices were either from the Jews or the Muslims. After all, they have kept alive the tradition of head coverings, and I figured, they'd have the most practical ones that worked in all kinds of weather. I didn't get the big scarves from the muslim sites, it would be really hard to wear that an not look muslim! But then, I don't want to look Amish either! =)

Perhaps we can come up with an orthodox site and sell our favorites, modified enough so we're not mistaken for jews, muslims, amish or mennonite or other non-orthodox.

Mary.

[Father David Moser]

But then, I don't want to look Amish either! =)

Perhaps we can come up with an orthodox site and sell our favorites, modified enough so we're not mistaken for jews, muslims, amish or mennonite or other non-orthodox.


Well, I have on order an amish hat which I think will work perfectly with my "street wear" of podriasnik and riassa. There aren't any "traditionally Orthodox" hats that have brims for rain and shade and that is a real plus here out here in the wild west. I have seen also a number of old photos of Russian priests in North America who wore fedoras or other culturally "American" hats instead of the skoufia on the street. I don't think that there is any problem with adopting the clothing styles of other cultures (even religious cultures) and making them our own.

Fr David Moser

[Xenia Rose]

When I first came to the Orthodox Church I had very short hair. In my parish most women wear headcoverings. I tried and tried to wear one like everyone but it kept falling off. Finally, I found this website that sells scarves that never fall off: http://headcoverings-by-devorah.com/home.html They have this trim in the front that if you use that to tie it under the back of your head it keeps the scarf on very very well.

I have grown my hair out and tried again to wear the larger scarves that are more commonly seen in my parish and to be honest, they keep falling off. My hair is slippery and even pins fall out. I have trouble with barretts staying in place. I also find most hats to be too hot as well. But the scarves that devorah makes stay put and are not too hot for me.

If you ask her to she will make changes to her scarves. She often uses dangly beaded trims for examples and I don't like them as they jingle and make noise. I wrote to her and asked her to subsitute this on the next order and she sent me something quiet in return. On my third order she wrote and said that she will always do the subsitution for me unless I ask otherwise as she keeps records of people's preferences.

__________________________

About why I wear a headcovering. That is kind of hard to explain in some ways. I am married but my husband had abandoned me before I came to Orthodoxy, so it is not really something I wear because of obedience to my husband. However, I do think of the headcovering as a sign of obedience to the church. Yet that is not the perfect answer as I know that it is not mandatory that one wears a headcovering in my parish or in any of the other ones I visit (including a local women's monestary where the nuns are covered of course and they have extra scarves but they don't require them to be worn.)

Yet, in my heart of hearts, the scarf is a sign of obedience. I wear it in services at church and in my formal prayer time at home and it helps me to be more focused on my prayers. It is like a uniform that just puts me in the right frame of mind.

I don't think about if the scarf will draw anyone's attention. I wear it not for others but for myself and for God. I see it as a tool I need. Just like I don't wear my eyeglasses for attention from others but only because I would be blind without them. The scarf is a tool for my spirituality, it gives me better spiritual focus.

[Fr Seraphim (Black)]

Dear Mary,

Well I have been searching for quite some time for her little book on Angels, alas to no avail. We did have it at the Monastery in England, so it does exist. There is this URL you can look at which is an article on Mother Alexandra - she had six children! When her husband reposed and the children were grown and settled she fulfilled her life-long dream of becoming a nun. She founded the Holy Transfiguation Monastery in Ellwood City, Pennsylvania - perhaps you could contact them and ask about the booklet on her encounter with Angels which began when she was 5 or so.

Here is at interesting article on her: http://stnina.org/journal/art/2.1.7

As for the barefeet in India, the first month was tough, but after that I could walk over any terrain!

I will pray for you and your children.

[Mary]

I don't think that there is any problem with adopting the clothing styles of other cultures (even religious cultures) and making them our own.

Fr David Moser

I guess I didn't really think of it that way. I suppose, if an Amish, Jewish or Muslim woman were to become orthodox, and she feels totally comfortable in whatever head covering/ clothes that she's used to wearing, there's absolutely no need to change all of that just because she's Orthodox, because... she doesn't have to! Pretty cool! Now that's truly cross cultural! =)

Mary.

[Elzabet]

I guess I didn't really think of it that way. I suppose, if an Amish, Jewish or Muslim woman were to become orthodox, and she feels totally comfortable in whatever head covering/ clothes that she's used to wearing, there's absolutely no need to change all of that just because she's Orthodox, because... she doesn't have to! Pretty cool! Now that's truly cross cultural! =)

Mary.

Hm. I hadn't thought about it that way at all. I guess I shall have to.

[Trudy]

Hi all,

I thought it would be interesting to read about the experiences of those who started wearing head coverings earlier this year, several of whom participated in this thread.

Are you still wearing a head covering?
Have any others in your parish followed in practice?
Has there been continued comments/responses?

I have continued the practice and it has truly been a blessing. I was fortunate enough to find a straw type hat at an inexpensive price which has riveted holes along the band. I can weave different colored ribbons or scarves through them to give a different look to the hat. For Pascha I put a few spring flowers in the band!

The comments have continued to flow from many quarters, including the Sunday school students. Other women in the parish have been quite supportive and postively responsive in their comments. Many of them have said, "I wish hats would come back." My reply is, "Then join me and start a trend!" So far no one has taken me up on the offer.

There continue to be a few men who enjoy making teasing (though non-complimentary) comments and laugh about them. On Pascha I was told I look like one of the characters from an old TV program called The Beverly Hillbillies. Their comments are keeping me humble.

I look forward to hearing others' experiences.

Love, Athanasia

[Elzabet]

Hi all,

I thought it would be interesting to read about the experiences of those who started wearing head coverings earlier this year, several of whom participated in this thread.

Are you still wearing a head covering?
Have any others in your parish followed in practice?
Has there been continued comments/responses?

I have continued the practice and it has truly been a blessing. I was fortunate enough to find a straw type hat at an inexpensive price which has riveted holes along the band. I can weave different colored ribbons or scarves through them to give a different look to the hat. For Pascha I put a few spring flowers in the band!

The comments have continued to flow from many quarters, including the Sunday school students. Other women in the parish have been quite supportive and postively responsive in their comments. Many of them have said, "I wish hats would come back." My reply is, "Then join me and start a trend!" So far no one has taken me up on the offer.

There continue to be a few men who enjoy making teasing (though non-complimentary) comments and laugh about them. On Pascha I was told I look like one of the characters from an old TV program called The Beverly Hillbillies. Their comments are keeping me humble.

I look forward to hearing others' experiences.

Love, Athanasia

Hi!

I'm glad you've persisted in wearing your cover and that you are getting positive comments to offset the teasing. I don't know why folks feel a need to do that.

I still prefer my scarves to hats. Hats seem hotter for some reason. I get questions from the young women in our congregation more than the older women, and I have seen some of them begin to wear scarves to church. Men do ask questions and just look perplexed. And recently in a Sunday school class, one of the kids asked me if I was a nun! This in spite of the 4 year old tagging at my skirts. LOL

Fr David mentioned that purchasing scarves from other cultures might not be a bad thing so I've expanded my stores online to find scarves and the like.

In Him
Beth

[Nina]

Wow! Thank you so much for resurfacing this thread! I learned many things here. I wore scarfs only during visits in monasteries in my life. And I am too vain I think. Also I never saw this at churches I frequented. We had a wonderful nun as a leader for what is maybe Bible study(?), or religion study here as equivalent, and some girls asked her if we should start covering our heads in church, and she did not give her blessing to us. We did not ask why though. Now I like the fact, that I am learning more. My grandmothers wore scarves at church, and my mom liked them very much, and wanted to, but in our church she would have been the first (for her age range), and it never happened. I guess also because of lack of information and encouragement, so thank you for this thread again. But please continue telling because you might encourage me enough to wear a scarf also (can't promise though). Thank you!

P.S Being inspired from this thread and the information I learned here, I wish that those of you (and of course our Fathers here) sisters in Christ, who have children, or know about such things as parenting, would start a thread with Orthodox advise and Orthodox material you peruse about parenting to help prepare the rest of us, who maybe God willing will enter that realm. I was thinking about this lately and I would very much appreciate it - especially because I lost my mother and grandmothers, and I feel a need for continued preparation.

[Mary]

I decided to go Muslim and Jewish. I liked the Muslim 'underscarves' (I'll post the link when I locate it) - and I liked the Jewish scarves. None of the women in my parish said a word, and after a few weeks I was quite bothered by the lack of comments. Not knowing what they were thinking, whether good or bad, was just driving me nuts.

So one evening at Vespers, I looked at St John, whose brilliant idea it was that I should cover my head, and asked him if I should bring it up with the women, and one by one the names of the women I most wanted to ask, came to my mind. Of course, I assumed, it was totally wishful thinking, because they were the ones I cared about the most, and whose thoughts would matter to me the most.

I rehearsed how I'd open up the topic after Divine Liturgy next day. Sort of like the Prodigal son rehearsing his opening lines for when he saw his Father... After Divine liturgy, at the hall, I made my way to Lidia. The first person whose name had popped into my mind at Vespers. She watched me walking towards her, and when I was close enough to hear her, she smiled and said: "I really like how you tie your scarves on. They look really good. How do you do it?" I was in shock. I stammered. And instead of answering her question, I went ahead with the 'line' I'd rehearsed: "Would you be willing to be my 'scarf police' and let me know if I get too outrageous and distracting?" She had a good laugh. I love her. When I grow up, I want to be just like her. =)

The next lady to comment on my scarf was the second person whose name had come to my mind at Vespers - my delightful Greek godmother Eleni. She too said she liked it, before I said anything!

It made such a difference to me to have the acceptance of these two women. It gave me some kind of inner stregth that I was sorely lacking in. As for St John, he hasn't made it clear how wearing a scarf makes me a woman. I have noticed however, that I need to wear it all the time, or else I feel like I'm not covered well enough. I feel insecure without it. And although I was able to wear pants, even jeans, for the first two months, I can't anymore. I wear a dress all the time, even at home.

I ran out yesterday with my sweat pants and no scarf, because I didn't wake up my son soon enough and I was afraid of missing the bus. Back at home, when I passed the full length mirror on our bedroom door, I must say, I looked positively hideous! Ok, so maybe that's a slight exaggeration, but not much! =)

Nina - I hope you find someone who can teach you how to be a good wife and mother. As for me, I knew everything about motherhood and training children the day I conceived my firstborn. Every day since then, for the past 8 years, I've lost some of my knowledge. I hardly know anything anymore, and I'm looking for someone to refill my knowledge tank, so I can get through another 10 years. After he's 18, I'll just hand him over to the world and give up altogether... =)

In Christ,
Mary.

[Nina]

It made such a difference to me to have the acceptance of these two women. It gave me some kind of inner stregth that I was sorely lacking in.

Now that I think of it hmmmm.... if you want my approval as well: you looked smashing, modest and beautiful; and you smiled with grace! :) When I saw you in the other thread's pictures, I had no idea about what you wrote here and this recent journey of yours. This is great and I admire you for doing all this! I am not sure if I can be as brave though. :)


I have noticed however, that I need to wear it all the time, or else I feel like I'm not covered well enough. I feel insecure without it. And although I was able to wear pants, even jeans, for the first two months, I can't anymore. I wear a dress all the time, even at home.

Oh my, this is so great! Your conscience is helping you so much! Mine is not as pious and spiritual. :) Actually some days ago I was reprimanded from an elderly lady at my church for going there with pants. She was right and sweet... but I do not listen.
You and Athanasia above (and all women who follow this practice) have my absolute admiration though, for this spiritual achievement. :) Bravo!


I ran out yesterday with my sweat pants and no scarf, because I didn't wake up my son soon enough and I was afraid of missing the bus. Back at home, when I passed the full length mirror on our bedroom door, I must say, I looked positively hideous! Ok, so maybe that's a slight exaggeration, but not much! =)

It is good you covered yourself here, because it really is a huge exaggeration! And I know that! You are natural! :)


Nina - I hope you find someone who can teach you how to be a good wife

I do not think I need help in that department, thanks, last time I checked he had only praise. :) (I am joking of course - since you do not see/hear me and in case my joke is ineffectual).

My dear grandmothers made sure (giggle) that I knew everything on how to be worthy for my prospective husband and in laws, but they forgot to teach things about the most important mission/duty and the greatest responsibility for a mother: raising (in our case Orthodox) children. Actually all their teachings started like this: "Your future mother in law will want ... will need... will prefer... etc and you have to, must, will do..." (giggles) And I was only a kid and I was blushing and uhhh felt so embarrassed to hear such things! (giggles) Oh my sweet grandmothers!


and mother. As for me, I knew everything about motherhood and training children the day I conceived my firstborn. Every day since then, for the past 8 years, I've lost some of my knowledge. I hardly know anything anymore, and I'm looking for someone to refill my knowledge tank, so I can get through another 10 years. After he's 18, I'll just hand him over to the world and give up altogether... =)

In Christ,
Mary.

That is an interesting idea. About the motherly instinct that teaches you best. Thinking about it: it is the gift of God to mothers! Thank you, Mary! :)

Also thank you to Elzabet for recommending some other resource for Orthodox mothers! :)

[Xenia Rose]

I continue to wear my scarves to services. I bought a brand new one for Pascha and was excited to wear it, not letting myself wear it at all before Pascha as it is a light beige or off white color and I had been wearing my black scarves (or for Holy Thursday I wore my burgundy scarf).

I never even thought about trying it on before Pascha. I had done the over night vigil Friday night and right through the Saturday morning DL I just kept my black scarf on. (Although the colors change to white during the service). Then I went home and took a nice long nap. I woke up just with enough time to gather my Pascha basket and pick up the ice and milk I promised to take for the meal after Pascha. So, I was at the church and went to put on the off white scarf.... and...

well... it was a lacey scarf that was way way way too starched by the person who made it. I tried and tried to keep it on and it kept falling off. I was singing in the choir and would bend down for the "Holy God, Holy Mighty..." prayer and when I stood up it would land on the floor!!!! (I never noticed how many times we say that prayer in the DL of St. Basil..) but the scarf was causing a distraction to other falling off like that.

One of my rules for myself is that I do not ever want to distract others from their prayers in the DL. I sing in the choir and I am one of the ones who never look or turn pages in the music books during some of the prayers were others tend to do this all the time. I can't stop them but I don't have to join them.

So, due to concern about distracting others, and the scarf refusing to stay on. I took it off. It was so wierd. I felt naked!!!

I put it back on to receive the Eucharist but the next time it fell off, I kept it off.

I don't have a very good light colored scarf to wear but I will never wear that one again. (Unless after I wash it the starch comes out and i practice it at home and it stays put.)

I am fortunate that in my parish 80% or so of the women who attend weekly wear head coverings. I can imagine how uncomfortable it would be to be the only person wanting to wear a headcovering. I do believe that if for some reason I moved and had to go to a different parish, I would continue to wear a headcovering. I find that it is good for me and helps me to focus.

[Nina]

I bought a brand new one for Pascha and was excited to wear it, not letting myself wear it at all before Pascha as it is a light beige or off white color and I had been wearing my black scarves (or for Holy Thursday I wore my burgundy scarf).


Christ is Risen!

Dear Xenia Rose,

Thank you so much for your story! Will you please explain to me, why on Holy Thursday you wore burgundy?
I would like to know because this year it was the first time that I felt, I should refrain from wearing colorful clothes during Great Lent (because I love colors, especially red). So I would like very much to know the reason behind burgundy on Holy Thursday, if you can please share it. Thank you! :)

Also I can not imagine the height you and Mary have achieved (feeling naked if not modest). That is a beautiful thing to ponder and contemplate on. It reminds me of Adam and Eve...

Something else... I am no expert, but I think that if you wash well your new scarf the starch comes off... since you do not have other similar colors.

[Mary]

Also I can not imagine the height you and Mary have achieved (feeling naked if not modest). That is a beautiful thing to ponder and contemplate on. It reminds me of Adam and Eve...



Dear Nina,

Mary has not achieved any heights. I know, because I live with her. She's usually quite filthy - which is why she needs to be covered from head to toe or else, everyone around her would drop dead. Believe me, the stench inside is quite unbearable! Which is why it gets to her head when someone one Monachos says she's a 'breath of fresh air' or that her post is 'humble'. She turns to me and says: "See? I knew I wasn't ALL bad! I'm climbing the Ladder!" I remind her that in receiving the praise as if she deserved it, she went lower than the first rung on the Ladder. But she's slow of learning and she doesn't pay any attention to me.

Some things, cannot be contemplated because, this after all, is orthodoxy, and it doesnt' always make sense. But in the Enlargement of the Heart, Fr Zacharias says God wants us to experiment. So, do just that. Experiment. Cover your head and see if it makes a difference to you as it has to others of us. Then, after a few days, take it off and see if you find yourself naked or not. Maybe it doesn't work for everyone. Maybe it takes different lengths of time for everyone to get attached to their scarves...

Xenia, it is definitely good to practice with a scarf at home first! I have found out that I only have the ability to tie one kind of scarf. I started with the rectangle and it worked so well, and I just couldn't get the square one to fit. Then, while my rectangular one was waiting to get washed I wore my square one, and learned how to do that. I went back to the rectangle, because i like the color, and lo and behold I have forgotten how to tie the rectangular one! It's been about two weeks now, I still don't remember how I used to do the rectangular one!

We also dont' have a mirror in our church. So, I need to make sure I know how to keep it on, for several hours, through bows, prostrations, carrying my five yr old, turning this way and that... So, whenever I try on a scarf at home, I also go through the whole range of motions that i'd have to go through at church. Besides distracting others, I dont' like distracting myself with a lopsided scarf either! =)

For that matter, I also tried out prostrations with my dresses, because some were at the length that would get caught on my shoes when I was down, and if I didn't get up exactly right, I'd get yanked backwards. If someone's behind me, they'd get injured badly. I think I know how to do prostrations in all my dresses now. But, like the scarves, I'll probably forget by the time Great Lent comes again. Although - there is a simple solution to that - I don't have to stop doing prostrations! =)

Christ is Risen!

Mary.

(I was going to say something about 'conscience' as well, but that's a whole other major topic and I've been online too long. Perhaps I should go back to the real world...)

[Nina]

Dear Nina,

Some things, cannot be contemplated because, this after all, is orthodoxy, and it doesnt' always make sense. But in the Enlargement of the Heart, Fr Zacharias says God wants us to experiment. So, do just that. Experiment. Cover your head and see if it makes a difference to you as it has to others of us. Then, after a few days, take it off and see if you find yourself naked or not. Maybe it doesn't work for everyone. Maybe it takes different lengths of time for everyone to get attached to their scarves...

Christ is Risen!

Mary

Lol Oh no, no, no! I am not as brave to experiment. I can not do that with scarves.

Also, please allow me to disagree and have my say about heights. :)

[Xenia Rose]

Christ is Risen!

Dear Xenia Rose,

Thank you so much for your story! Will you please explain to me, why on Holy Thursday you wore burgundy?
I would like to know because this year it was the first time that I felt, I should refrain from wearing colorful clothes during Great Lent (because I love colors, especially red). So I would like very much to know the reason behind burgundy on Holy Thursday, if you can please share it. Thank you! :)

Also I can not imagine the height you and Mary have achieved (feeling naked if not modest). That is a beautiful thing to ponder and contemplate on. It reminds me of Adam and Eve...

Something else... I am no expert, but I think that if you wash well your new scarf the starch comes off... since you do not have other similar colors.

Indeed He is Risen! Glorify Him!

Whenever possible, I try to wear a headcovering that goes with the liturgical color of the week. The main exception is that instead of the general "gold" liturgical color I wear black, and instead of purple for Lent I wear black. Instead of "white" I usually wear off white but I have worn white headcoverings... for example when I was brought into the church I wore a white headcovering.

This means when the liturgical color is blue (for Feasts for the Theotokos) I wear a blue headcovering or Green (for Palm Sunday) I wear green, for Elevation of the Cross is red so I wear burgundy. Holy Thursday's liturgical color is red so I wore my burgundy one.

In my parish people tend to wear the liturgical color themselves. I find I keep getting new purple sweaters to wear during Lent for example. I don't wear red very well with my complexion but burgundy looks good on me so I wear that color.

---------

I don't feel as if I have reached any kind of height. The fact is, I am weaker then most and need the added tool of wearing a scarf to help me focus better.

[Nina]

Indeed He is Risen! Glorify Him!

Whenever possible, I try to wear a headcovering that goes with the liturgical color of the week. The main exception is that instead of the general "gold" liturgical color I wear black, and instead of purple for Lent I wear black. Instead of "white" I usually wear off white but I have worn white headcoverings... for example when I was brought into the church I wore a white headcovering.

This means when the liturgical color is blue (for Feasts for the Theotokos) I wear a blue headcovering or Green (for Palm Sunday) I wear green, for Elevation of the Cross is red so I wear burgundy. Holy Thursday's liturgical color is red so I wore my burgundy one.

Thank you for teaching me this! I had no idea that red was Holy Thursday's color!!!! Do you know the reason behind it (in the middle of Holy Week to have red)? I would venture into guessing: The Blood of Christ? The prototype of the Holy Communion that was given that day?


In my parish people tend to wear the liturgical color themselves. I find I keep getting new purple sweaters to wear during Lent for example. I don't wear red very well with my complexion but burgundy looks good on me so I wear that color.

I hear you about the purple color. I suddenly decided this year to go on with it. Maybe because my mom passed away recently and the aunts of my mom and those of mine were discussing things about showing respect through color.



I don't feel as if I have reached any kind of height. The fact is, I am weaker then most and need the added tool of wearing a scarf to help me focus better.

Please forgive me that I expressed it, but honestly and from the bottom of my heart, I admire you all for doing it and although I can not follow that practice myself now, I can not help, but admire. I say 'height' because I see you way ahead of me. Please take it as a compliment and support gesture if I was a sister from your parish. And if you were the only one in the congregation wearing it, you would be a distraction for me because I would keep admiring your modesty. :) I am not sure what I would feel in your parish where most of the women are wearing head-scarves.

[Xenia Rose]

Thank you for teaching me this! I had no idea that red was Holy Thursday's color!!!! Do you know the reason behind it (in the middle of Holy Week to have red)? I would venture into guessing: The Blood of Christ? The prototype of the Holy Communion that was given that day?


Holy Thursday service is about the gift of the Eucharist Christ gave us on the last few days of his physical earthly life. So, in this case the red is for the Eucharist. Red is also for any feast that involves the Cross.

In our parish we have a ton of items covered in the liturgical color and I do the ironing of these clothes and placing of the ones in the Nave. (I put the ironed clothes near the Iconstasis for the Priest and Deacon to put in place in the altar.) Because we had so many color changes that same week, we elected not to change to Red this year. But I understand that officially that is the color. The Priest determines when we do the color changes in our parish. We were going to use red but he said that it is so much work for one service so he said we wouldn't do it. (It takes about 3 hours to iron and place all of the clothes.)

As I type this, I am wondering if it was Holy Thursday or Holy Wednesday.. forgive me if I got it wrong. I mean the Divine Liturgy where the Eucharist for the sick is set aside for the year, which is either Wednesday or Thursday but I think it is Thursday.

[Elzabet]

The fact is, I am weaker then most and need the added tool of wearing a scarf to help me focus better.

Christ is risen!

And I could have written that. The "headgear" as my friends call it reminds me Whose I am and Whom I represent. I'm forgetful of that at times.

[Karena Hryniuk]

I have noticed however, that I need to wear it all the time, or else I feel like I'm not covered well enough. I feel insecure without it. And although I was able to wear pants, even jeans, for the first two months, I can't anymore. I wear a dress all the time, even at home.


Same here Ladies! The head covering is always on, I wear both scarves and fitted hats, all black. Skirts and dresses day and night. I have only one pair of sporty running pants that sit in my dresser that are at this point collecting dust.

Skirts and dresses cover everything, and to put on a pair of pants of any kind...they show every curve, crack and shape of the body. A certain level of modesty is gained wearing them. Whether its in church or at home scrubbing the floor the skirts are on. Also full black leggings or tights, and long sleeves at ALL times.

My two cents :)
~Karena

[Trudy]

I am weaker then most and need the added tool of wearing a scarf to help me focus better.

Yes, me too. It blocks the distractions some how. I'm not sure how that works but it does. It reminds me of Whose Presence I am standing in.

Athanasia

[Trudy]

Matthew, if this is an inappropriate message please delete and let me know.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dear Ones,

Thought I'd make a quick update on the head covering situation at my parish.

A Matushka who attends (and wears a hat every week) brought three hats to church for me. She no longer wears them and thought I might like to have them! I was so touched by her gift of kindness, thinking of me, and the silent encouragement. One is red, one is white, and one is blue...covers the wardrobe quite well! True blessings!

Sadly, the one particular man who continues to make comments made me quite uncomfortable this past week. Sunday, I feel his comment crossed the "funny/joking/teasing" line into the "uncomfortable" arena.

It was pleasantly warm this past Sunday so I wore a (very modest), muted green (since it was Pentecost), floor length dress with short sleeves , a summer straw hat, and sandals. It was warm in the church due to our "new-to-us" air conditioner system which doesn't work particularly well but is better than nothing.

As I walked down the outside steps to go to my car, he (while standing with his sons & father) made a remark about how hot I must have been in my hat and was glad to see I was not wearing pantyhose. Excuse me?! I made some smart remark back to him and hurried to my car. He pays that close attention to what I am wearing so as to notice I'm NOT wearing pantyhose in a LONG dress?!??!

I am beginning to wonder if his standing in the vestibule all through Liturgy provides him a very nice view as women walk down the aisle to receive communion? Little did I realize I was walking a fashion runway for this guy and not approaching the Holy Blessed Divine cup of our Lord!!

Friends, I am at a loss as to what to do. No matter what I wear, no matter how modest I am dressed, this guy makes a comment. I have tried ignoring him. I have tried making smart remarks back at him. I've said, "Why does it bug you so that I wear a hat?" I do NOT look up when returning from receiving Communionn so there is no eye contact.

Am I doing something wrong? I am NOT a shapely woman by any stretch of anyone's imagination. But I AM a woman who had two children...if you know what I mean! I do not flirt. Etc., etc., etc. Though I am married, my husband attends a different church than I. This man is single (divorced).

Ought I confront him very directly and tell him how his comments make me feel? Ought I slap his face (he's tall so it would be quite a reach)? Or should I approach Fr. Tim and ask him to speak to this guy?

It is a sad thing when one is leery of approaching the chalice knowing some guy is "watching your back- - - -" if you know what I mean.

Please pray for me. And thank you in advance, for your thoughts and advice.

Trudy (Athanasia)

[Trudy]

Deleted double post. Sorry. ~Athanasia~

[Elzabet]

I'm so sorry you have to go through this. How rude! The only thing I can think of that I would do if someone was so crass is to have my husband speak to him. Perhaps that would work for you, or to speak to your priest? Especially to make comments at church? Yeesh.

[Fr Seraphim (Black)]

As I walked down the outside steps to go to my car, he (while standing with his sons & father) made a remark about how hot I must have been in my hat and was glad to see I was not wearing pantyhose. Excuse me?! I made some smart remark back to him and hurried to my car. He pays that close attention to what I am wearing so as to notice I'm NOT wearing pantyhose in a LONG dress?!??!

I am beginning to wonder if his standing in the vestibule all through Liturgy provides him a very nice view as women walk down the aisle to receive communion? Little did I realize I was walking a fashion runway for this guy and not approaching the Holy Blessed Divine cup of our Lord!!

Friends, I am at a loss as to what to do. No matter what I wear, no matter how modest I am dressed, this guy makes a comment.

Ought I confront him very directly and tell him how his comments make me feel? Ought I slap his face (he's tall so it would be quite a reach)? Or should I approach Fr. Tim and ask him to speak to this guy?

It is a sad thing when one is leery of approaching the chalice knowing some guy is "watching your back- - - -" if you know what I mean.
Trudy (Athanasia)


Personally this strikes me as far, far beyond appropriate speech and Christian attitude towards anyone. Imagine if he had said this about a ten year old girl in hearing of her father? Especially in the sacred house of our Father, even in the grounds surrounding our Churches.

If a monk made such a comment about a nun, he would receive a severe epitimia. Fr. Iustin at Petru Voda would not hesitate to show him the door.

I remember Fr. Sophrony telling us, that at St. Panteleimon's, the Abbot, Archimandrite Missael, a father of great stature and prayer, would simply remind monks who misbehaved with this saying: 'You think your behaviour merits everlasting patience? We have every month hundreds of applications from monks and those desirous of being novices here in our Monastery'. (He was referring to the difficulty of monastic life in Russia, and that St. Panteleimon's was predominately Russian at that time.

This man demonstrates that there is something seriously wrong with his inner spiritual state. My feeling is that this needs to be addressed with your Parish priest.

Truly, this is appalling.

[Herman Blaydoe]

You certainly should make your priest aware of the situation regardless. There is absolutely nothing wrong with simply telling this individual that you do not feel that his comments are appropriate. How you dress is between you and God, (and the priest who must maintain "good order" in God's house), and is not his business. If he has a problem he should take it up with the priest himself. You don't HAVE to confront him, but there is no reason why you can't, either. This is why sexual harrassment training in the workplace is so important I think. It carries over to other aspects of our lives as well. You do not have to take it if it makes you uncomfortable, plain and simple.

If I am behaving inappropriately, assuming, perhaps, a more comfortable interaction than the other person, I appreciate that person letting me know. We are a very "hugging" parish, but one young lady let me know that she didn't like hugs. So we don't hug, but we do talk and are friends and I appreciate her letting me know that I was making her uncomfortable. It stung a little, but I got over it.

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Ought I confront him very directly and tell him how his comments make me feel? Ought I slap his face (he's tall so it would be quite a reach)? Or should I approach Fr. Tim and ask him to speak to this guy?

Better to speak first with our priest.

Meanwhile pray to the saint whose name this man bears that he may protect all involved.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Trudy]

Thank you all for your thought-filled comments. I've a telephone call into my priest.

Fr. Raphael, when I first spoke to my priest about this issue several months ago, he told me to pray for the man and ask God to bless him. I have been doing so.

Another thing that concerns me is the fact that I am the Sunday school teacher to both his boys (middle school age). His attitude and mouth does nothing to help my (so called) authority in that position.

Continuing to pray,
Athanasia

[John Charmley]

Dear Trudy,

This is appalling, and I join those who express their sorrow and horror at what you have experienced; this is clearly harassment, and it may be that in the absence of your husband he feels he can get away with it. I do hope that your priest has some good suggestions, and that he will be able to take this up with the man. From what you have said you have done everything you can to let the man know that you do not welcome his behaviour, that it makes you uncomfortable, and that you wish it to stop, so it now lies in the hands of others to offer you help.

Obviously if he will not desist, it is to be hoped that others can persuade him so to do. My prayers are with you - it is so sad that this sacred space should be violated in this way.

In Christ,

John

[Trudy]

Dear Fellow Members,

Once again thank you for your help and support. Father T spoke with me this evening and said he will take care of all matters. He gave me specific directions to follow during Communion (don't be last in line, etc.). He was most unhappy.

This also provided an opportunity to express concern for this man's sons who are my students.

Church is the one place where I have felt most "safe" and have had no "fear." It is my sanctuary, as it is for so many others. I assured Father that those feelings have not changed and that I trusted him to handle the matter as he deemed appropriate, that I did not want to know what happened nor the content of any conversation, and that no apologies are necessary or expected. I also assured him I would continue to pray for this man and his sons as I usually do.

This situation has driven home the necessity of trustworthy priests in our parishes. Thanks be to God for their piety, love and faith! We must pray all the harder and more for our priests who shepherd unruly flocks.

Athanasia
(unruly flock member) :-)

[Xenia Rose]

Dear Fellow Members,

Once again thank you for your help and support. Father T spoke with me this evening and said he will take care of all matters. He gave me specific directions to follow during Communion (don't be last in line, etc.). He was most unhappy.

This also provided an opportunity to express concern for this man's sons who are my students.

Church is the one place where I have felt most "safe" and have had no "fear." It is my sanctuary, as it is for so many others. I assured Father that those feelings have not changed and that I trusted him to handle the matter as he deemed appropriate, that I did not want to know what happened nor the content of any conversation, and that no apologies are necessary or expected. I also assured him I would continue to pray for this man and his sons as I usually do.

This situation has driven home the necessity of trustworthy priests in our parishes. Thanks be to God for their piety, love and faith! We must pray all the harder and more for our priests who shepherd unruly flocks.

Athanasia
(unruly flock member) :-)

I truely agree with you about how wonderful our Priests are! And I am so glad your Priest is going to talk to him.

However, I would also caution you to be wary of this man. He is invasive in his remarks about your clothing, especially the pantyhose remark. I just don't like the sound of that. Do not be last in line for communion as your Priest suggest, don't let this man be behind you when you do an metania (spelling?) or when you do a prostration. This does not mean you don't still pray for this man. Of course you should pray for him. But, keep a good boundary with him as well. (Which means.... NEVER be alone with him...) It is safest for you to keep some distance... if not physically save then at least emotinally safe.

[Effie Ganatsios]

Head coverings :

Could I join this discussion? Not as an authority on this subject but just to outline (and perhaps clarify for my own benefit) some thoughts on what I believe orthodox Christians should and shouldn’t wear- especially in church.

I liked what Kira said : “The beauty of Orthodoxy is that everything does not have to be done exactly the same way and there is flexibility in inconsequential matters. What matters is the spiritual garment you are wearing - what's in your heart.

I totally agree.

St. Paul has commented on the way women should dress and what I understand is that we should dress in a way that doesn’t draw attention to ourselves. We are in church to pray and come together in worship. What does our heart tell us to do? If we feel that it is correct to cover our heads, then we should do so.

Clothes are very important, I agree. I have seen women wear tight cream trousers to church..... drawing attention to an area of their bodies that only their husbands should be privileged enough to see – in fact I am sure that if these women could see their backsides as others do they wouldn’t wear trousers at all – in or out of church. But, I have also had the irritating experience of having listened to modestly dressed women chatter all through the service.... Both these types of women draw attention to themselves during the service and prevent others from concentrating.

On the practical side : We don’t wear head scarves in church, here in Greece. During the past few years a large number of Russian immigrants have come here and they attend services wearing headscarves. Everyone respects their right to do so and it is not an issue. Old calendar orthodox also wear scarves.

We should be careful of pride that masquerades as humility. Is what you wear externally a sign of your internal state? Or is wearing long dresses and headscarves a way of telling people that you are a “good Christian”? These are questions that you need to answer – not to justify yourself to others but to find your own path to God.

The clothing men and women wear has changed since St. Paul’s time. Do men dress as Paul did? Do they all have beards and long hair? Even priests in countries such as Australia and America have decided that they want to “fit in” more and have given up their beards and traditional attire.

Simplicity in general is an outcome of an inner spirituality. The greater our efforts to come into closer contact with God, the more we feel the need to get rid of everything that is redundant in our lives – clothes included. Dress comfortably, sensibly and joyfully. Wear whatever feels right to you, taking into consideration your body type and colouring. Being dowdy and unattractive can also be a twisted way of drawing attention to yourself. Orthodox Christianity is a bottomless well of joy - a hard road, but one, I have found, to be filled with joy.

Hope some of my disconnected thoughts have been of help.

Effie

[John Charmley]

Dear Effie,

Not at all disconnected, and very helpful.

I can relate especially to the
modestly dressed women chatter all through the service part of what you say. We have a very kind and sweet woman who is quite unaware of the difficulties she causes by doing this. The priest has had a quiet word with her, but she seems quite unable to stop. So the rest of us are regarding it as a discipline for us to bear with her whilst, we hope, she tries to curb this habit.

What matters is that we treat each other, and God's house, with proper respect.

In Christ,


John

[Mary]

Head coverings :

Could I join this discussion? Not as an authority on this subject but just to outline (and perhaps clarify for my own benefit) some thoughts on what I believe orthodox Christians should and shouldn’t wear- especially in church.

I liked what Kira said : “The beauty of Orthodoxy is that everything does not have to be done exactly the same way and there is flexibility in inconsequential matters. What matters is the spiritual garment you are wearing - what's in your heart.

I totally agree.

Hope some of my disconnected thoughts have been of help.

Effie

Dear Effie...

I'm not sure how much of the previous posts you've read. I'm the one who started this thread, a long time ago - not to debate the why's and the why nots of headcoverings. There are many other threads that do that. In esssence, I agree with everything you posted.

I attend a parish where no one wears headcoverings, both Greeks and Russians. I didn't wear one either, and my conscience was perfectly fine with it. BUT something changed and I knew I had to start wearing a headcovering. I wasn't able to find any practical advice on what to wear, how to keep those things on my head, where to get them, etc etc.... I needed that kind of information. What others choose to wear or don't wear, is none of my business. But the truth is, some of us need to wear headcoverings. I needed advice from my sisters who do, and found this to be the perfect place to do so.

As it turned out, we also needed each others' encouragement to do what our consciences dictated. The matter of judging each other happens in both directions. Those who wear headcoverings can judge those who don't as being impious, etc. And those who don't wear headcoverings could judge those who do, as being hypocrites, who's hearts don't match up with their outside modesty. If you go back and read what Trudy is struggling with, you'll see that there's at least one strange man out there who thinks modesty is something to mock. But here, she can share her burden and we can pray for her and each other.

I know that my heart will never match up to my outside modesty until I leave this world. But if I were to dress unhypocritically, I'd have to live in a brothel.

One of the most beautiful things I learned about orthodoxy is that what we do with our bodies is connected to what we do with our souls. As a protestant, I used to think that fasting happened as one matured as a Christian. But in Orthodoxy, I dont' have to be mature to fast - in fact, it works the other way. I fast first, and because of that, I grow. To me, what I wear works the same way. It's much easier to control my wardrobe than it is to control my heart. Much easier to tie a scarf on my head, than it to actually be submissive... But if I do not do that which is easier, I'll never be able to do that which is harder.


In Christ,

Mary.

[Effie Ganatsios]

Hi Mary, I meant no disrespect and I certainly wasn't criticizing.

My main point was that each of us should do what he or she thinks is correct. I can relate to what you said about the fasting and I can see the connection to the clothes you think you should wear.

What other people say or don't say is something that has never interested me - the person who was rude to Trudy has his own demons to contend with. It's sometimes hard not to answer someone when they are rude but in the long run it works out best. This forum does help us all, doesn't it?

What did you mean when you said "But if I were to dress unhypocritically, I'd have to live in a brothel. " The clothes you wear are a reflection of who you are - I prefer comfortable clothes that look good on me (I think) and that I'm happy with. I wear loose trousers and tops during the day or when I'm out and usually suits and medium sized heels when I go to church.

Speaking honestly, and once again, only for myself, if I were to wear a head scarf I would feel that I was only pretending, and that's the reason I don't. If I felt that I should I would have no hesitation in wearing one. Our friends and surroundings influence us a lot more than we're willing to acknowledge and it takes a lot of courage to be different.... as we all know.

Wearing a scarf can be feminine and there are some really beautiful ones available. A soft silk scarf in a pastel colour or, even more suitable, a soft cream or white, is an option that you might consider. Silk is easy to manage and an elegant choice. The Roman Catholics wear lace mantillas that hang loose but this is not something I have ever seen in an Orthodox church.

Effie

[Mary]

Hi Mary, I meant no disrespect and I certainly wasn't criticizing.

What did you mean when you said "But if I were to dress unhypocritically, I'd have to live in a brothel. " The clothes you wear are a reflection of who you are...
Effie

Hi Effie,

I know you weren't criticizing. Forgive me for getting defensive. My statement about dressing 'unhypocritcally' was in reply to your previous post in which you say:


We should be careful of pride that masquerades as humility. Is what you wear externally a sign of your internal state? Or is wearing long dresses and headscarves a way of telling people that you are a “good Christian”? These are questions that you need to answer – not to justify yourself to others but to find your own path to God.


"Is what I wear externally a sign of my internal state?" By all means, no! I'm the first of sinners...

I'm thankful for your post. I've been thinking about it all day, and trying to figure out why I wear what I wear. I've also been to church in the meantime, for an akathist to the Cross. There was one statement that stuck out today: (I have horrible memory, so this is a paraphrase) - "Rejoice, beginning and goal of travelers..."

What a beautiful paradox! You can't start your Christian journey till you come to the cross, and you end your journey, at the Cross, when you get to the place where you can give your life fully to Christ as He did for you...

For some reason, it linked with my scarf - I want to be completely obedient to Christ & the Church, whether I understand all the theological reasons or not. I want to be a true woman, and I'm not talking about being feminine, I'm the least feminine person I've ever known. If I could dress like a nun, I would, but that would be a bit extreme, seeing that I have two kids and a husband... So the closest I can come to that, is long dresses, long sleeves, and scarves. Plain and simple and comfortable.

My outward appearance is a starting place, but also a goal - it's where I want my heart to be. For instance, every once in a while, I can't stand my kids anymore and I rip into them... but when I become aware of what I'm wearing, I realize how incongruous my action is with what I look like... a true woman doesn't lose control of her temper. So, my repentance is much more speedier than it ever was before.

Another struggle is vanity. Never was beautiful, by any earthly standard, and yet, I'm vain. About What?! One of the things I love is my hair. It had always been straight, and of course, i wanted it to be curly, but it wouldn't curl... till my first son entered my system - my hair became curly, and what beautiful curls! Jesus said, if a part of our body causes us to sin, we should get rid of it. For me, my hair is one of the things. Cutting off all my hair would be wrong - but I can cover it up! Now I can't see my own curls. However, I still spend more time than I should in front of the mirror, admiring my scarf.... My heart, has a long way to go yet.

There's many more things that I struggle with. But for some reason, my sins become that much more clearer, when I am aware of how they don't match my outside. So... although I agree with you that the way we dress is a reflection of ourselves, at a deeper level, it's not. Like you, I like clothes that are comfortable, colors and styles that match my shape and size regardless of whether they're in style or not, shoes with flat soles, etc. At this point in my life, it would be quite dangerous for my heart to get comfortable and happy.

I have no idea if I'm making any sense to you. I suddenly feel like I dont' know any English and I'm having great trouble saying things the way I want to. I'll stop and if I've confused you, please pelt me with questions, and if it's worth our time, I'll try to untangle the mess I've created.

In Christ,
Mary.

[Fr Seraphim (Black)]

Head coverings :

Could I join this discussion? Not as an authority on this subject but just to outline (and perhaps clarify for my own benefit) some thoughts on what I believe orthodox Christians should and shouldn’t wear- especially in church.

I liked what Kira said : “The beauty of Orthodoxy is that everything does not have to be done exactly the same way and there is flexibility in inconsequential matters. What matters is the spiritual garment you are wearing - what's in your heart.

I totally agree.

St. Paul has commented on the way women should dress and what I understand is that we should dress in a way that doesn’t draw attention to ourselves. We are in church to pray and come together in worship. What does our heart tell us to do? If we feel that it is correct to cover our heads, then we should do so.

Clothes are very important, I agree. I have seen women wear tight cream trousers to church..... drawing attention to an area of their bodies that only their husbands should be privileged enough to see – in fact I am sure that if these women could see their backsides as others do they wouldn’t wear trousers at all – in or out of church. But, I have also had the irritating experience of having listened to modestly dressed women chatter all through the service.... Both these types of women draw attention to themselves during the service and prevent others from concentrating.

On the practical side : We don’t wear head scarves in church, here in Greece. During the past few years a large number of Russian immigrants have come here and they attend services wearing headscarves. Everyone respects their right to do so and it is not an issue. Old calendar orthodox also wear scarves.

We should be careful of pride that masquerades as humility. Is what you wear externally a sign of your internal state? Or is wearing long dresses and headscarves a way of telling people that you are a “good Christian”? These are questions that you need to answer – not to justify yourself to others but to find your own path to God.

The clothing men and women wear has changed since St. Paul’s time. Do men dress as Paul did? Do they all have beards and long hair? Even priests in countries such as Australia and America have decided that they want to “fit in” more and have given up their beards and traditional attire.

Simplicity in general is an outcome of an inner spirituality. The greater our efforts to come into closer contact with God, the more we feel the need to get rid of everything that is redundant in our lives – clothes included. Dress comfortably, sensibly and joyfully. Wear whatever feels right to you, taking into consideration your body type and colouring. Being dowdy and unattractive can also be a twisted way of drawing attention to yourself. Orthodox Christianity is a bottomless well of joy - a hard road, but one, I have found, to be filled with joy.

Hope some of my disconnected thoughts have been of help.

Effie

Dear Effie,

Thank you for your contribution. Having myself lived for many, many years in Greece, both on the Holy Mountain and throughout the mainland and the islands, since the 1970, I have these reflections.

Greek women in Karpathos and many other areas, notably Greek Macedonia dressed in what could be called conservative attire. The women were on the left side of the Church and the men on the right.

Sadly, I saw this slowly degrade towards the Western European and especially the North American manner.

To bring this issue up-to-date, on September 3rd, 2001 I arrived in Constantinople along with three Athonite monks, who spend half the year on Mt. Athos, and the other half of the year at the Holy Monastery of St. George the Great Martyr on the island of Prinkipos off the coast of Istanbul.

When we arrived we went directly to the Phanar to receive the blessing of the Ecumenical Patriarch, we spent some time with him, and then departed on the ferry for Prinkipos. This is the last island, adjacent to the island which holds the Theologcial Seminary. It is an island without cars, only horses and walking are permitted. The police have approximately three jeeps.

The monastery sits on top of the mountain, a very steep climb indeed. The four of us were there, attired as per custom in our Orthodox monastic vestments when the earth shattering events of September 11th occurred.

It so happened that the Patriarch's secretary lives on Prinikpos, and he came up immediately to inform us. We had no television or radio, but the Patriarch keeps an appartment above the Monastery, and the secretary having the key, allowed us in.

There I watched in horror the events. There were no English stations, but Greek, Turkish and Arabic. We watched the Greek transmissions. When I saw the second airplane so visibly fly into the remaining tower I can not give word to my inner state.

This is but a prelude to the topic of this thread.

The monastery houses a miracle working Icon of the Panagia, Her feast day is September 24th. On that day, upwards of 20,000 pilgrims, both Muslim and Orthodox climb the mountain.

Even before the Feast day, there is a continual stream of pilgrims. We had some long dresses and head coverings for women, and trousers and loose fitting shirts for men.

With the Muslims there was never any debate or need for one. They all, men and women entered the Church properly attired.

It was the Greek Orthodox women from Greece with whom we had endless debates. They would arrive attired in beach wear, or forms of it. When we suggested that they could only enter with a freely provided long skirt, head covering and long sleeve blouse - well, the foundations of the earth shook.

They would quickly work themselves up into a tirade of this 'needless, non-Greek imposition', and they would address this with their Bishops upon their return.

We faced martyrdom daily due to September 11th, as had the Rum Orthodox on that island and the entire monastery in the mid-fifties.

The Greek Orthodox women made an uncalled-for perismos.

It is one thing to talk in Church, it is another to stand before the the Lord dressed in shorts and halter top.

If my word offend, I ask your forgiveness. In Orthodox Romania, I have never seen a women enter a Church without her head covered. What then has happened to Greece? This is a question you should ask yourself.

In particular your exegesis on simplicity is rather far stretched. It brings deep sorrow to my heart.

In North America we are a minority. The former Orthodox country of Greece is not a leading light for me. The crucified countries of Romania, Russia, Serbia and Bulgaria are, your Balkan neighbours.

It is as described in the New Testament...Christ is a scandal and a stumbling block. And there is no difference between His Church and Him.

[Rick H.]

Last edited by Mary: Today at 02:52 PM. Reason: lousy spelling...



Dear Mary,

I think you meant to say, "lousyestes!" :)

Your Brother in Christ,
Rick

[John Charmley]

Dear Fr. Seraphim,


It is one thing to talk in Church, it is another to stand before the the Lord dressed in shorts and halter top.

It is indeed; it is hard to know how anyone could imagine that such attire was at all appropriate. I know that we have often had occasion here to mention, and indeed appreciate, cultural diversity; but this goes far beyond anything like that. Can there be anyone who would not see that this is simply disrespectful?

In the house of the Lord we worship Him, we glorify Him and we give thanks for His great and manifold mercies to us - and we show respect to Him, to His Church, and to our fellows. In some cultures this comes naturally, of course, and I am always struck at Coptic services by the modest dress of the Egyptians. I know that things are different in the west - but not so different that there can be any excusing such disrespect as you have had to describe to us.

In Christ,

John

[Mary]

Dear Mary,

I think you meant to say, "lousyestes!" :)

Your Brother in Christ,
Rick

LOL =) I didn't think anyone else was as obssessed as myself, reading every single thing that there is to read, including the reasons for edits!

[Trudy]

it is hard to know how anyone could imagine that such attire was at all appropriate.

Dear John,

Believe me, I've seen worse. Nothing made me gasp more than to see several young ladies approach the chalice in strapless dresses. Lovely girls. Lovely dresses. Completely inappropriate for Church. And shame on me for looking and gasping - for that is judgment and none of my business.

For years I have told my daughter, "Don't even think about wearing a strapless wedding gown when you want to be married." We've gone round and round about it. Now that she is a young adult, she sees my point and agrees. God be praised! Now she is willing to concede that if she wears a strapless dress (or her attendants), all will have jackets of some kind to cover their shoulders while in Church.

In Christ,
Athanasia (Trudy)

[Xenia Rose]

Hi Mary, I meant no disrespect and I certainly wasn't criticizing.

My main point was that each of us should do what he or she thinks is correct. I can relate to what you said about the fasting and I can see the connection to the clothes you think you should wear.

What other people say or don't say is something that has never interested me - the person who was rude to Trudy has his own demons to contend with. It's sometimes hard not to answer someone when they are rude but in the long run it works out best. This forum does help us all, doesn't it?

What did you mean when you said "But if I were to dress unhypocritically, I'd have to live in a brothel. " The clothes you wear are a reflection of who you are - I prefer comfortable clothes that look good on me (I think) and that I'm happy with. I wear loose trousers and tops during the day or when I'm out and usually suits and medium sized heels when I go to church.

Speaking honestly, and once again, only for myself, if I were to wear a head scarf I would feel that I was only pretending, and that's the reason I don't. If I felt that I should I would have no hesitation in wearing one. Our friends and surroundings influence us a lot more than we're willing to acknowledge and it takes a lot of courage to be different.... as we all know.

Wearing a scarf can be feminine and there are some really beautiful ones available. A soft silk scarf in a pastel colour or, even more suitable, a soft cream or white, is an option that you might consider. Silk is easy to manage and an elegant choice. The Roman Catholics wear lace mantillas that hang loose but this is not something I have ever seen in an Orthodox church.

Effie

Effie, I am not going to play the "politically correct" card here and say that of course you did not mean to be critical. I firmly believe you fully intended to insult me and others who feel that wearing a headscarf is good for us spiritually.

You assume that because if you were to wear a scarf it would only be for vanity... for attention that that is what the rest of us who wear scarves are doing.

That assumption is prevelant. But it is judgementalism at its worse.

I wear a headscarf when I am totally alone in my home saying my prayers. I wear it at church for DL and for Vespers (or other services.) I also wear it when I am totally alone in the nave of the church ironing clothes or cleaning the candle stands.

So, I ask myself why should I not wear a scarf if visiting another parish where those people don't wear one? If I chose to not wear a scarf..... then the not wearing of it is vanity.

In fact, I have spoken with women who say that they want to wear a headscarf but worry what others will say. I understand and empathize with them a lot. I never tell them they must therefore wear a scarf or there is something wrong with them.

So, I ask, why do you feel it necessary to come here to judge me and others who do wear a scarf?

Sometimes I think about this kind of stuff and I wonder what on earth any of us are doing attending a DL to begin with. If we can't put aside this kind of pettiness. Then I realize that the Divine Liturgy is the ONLY place to go for healing of this.

So, wearing my scarf I attend to be healed from the judgement of others.

[Fr Seraphim (Black)]

Sometimes I think about this kind of stuff and I wonder what on earth any of us are doing attending a DL to begin with. If we can't put aside this kind of pettiness. Then I realize that the Divine Liturgy is the ONLY place to go for healing of this.

So, wearing my scarf I attend to be healed from the judgement of others.

Dear Community Members,

I do not know Effie naturally, nor where in Greece she lives, nor other aspects of her life which give rise to these sentiments.

I do have a few reflections if everyone will bear with me.

I spent two full years in India in the very early Seventies (I had been in Greece prior to this). I loved India. For a young man coming from Ontario, Canada, which at that time was not as culturally diverse as it is today, it was very much like stepping back into the Middle Ages. Every 50-75 kilometres, there was a different dialect of the 16 major languages of India, and a different god or goddess venerated very strongly in the town, village or area. If the Indian people were anything in those days, they were certainly religious. There were temples everywhere. Monks and nuns were just another part of the crowd.

The summer in India is for someone like myself, unforgiving, which has given birth to the expression 'mad dogs and English men.' I well remember days of 115 degrees F. Taking the train, (and I always went 3rd class), the temperature would rise and rise and rise. At times I felt I would be ill.

Despite this onslaught of heat, everyone was totally covered! I had seen the same in Africa, also on my way to India. All the Africans were fully covered, albeit in loose clothing; only the Western tourists were wandering around with their body parts hanging out.

My most unfavourable experience of this in India, was in the former Portugese colony of Goa. Everyone has a Portugese name! And all the Churches have the same Portugese Baroque style as found in Portugal. Again, men and women and children were all fully dressed. Goa is very hot, and right on the Indian Ocean. It was then undergoing a metamorphose of dramatic nature.

I am from the West, allow me to make this clear. Yet I was shocked, no that is not the word, I was stunned to see young women strolling into town to mail letters etc. dressed in bikinis. The Indians were aghast. I was ashamed. The western women were totally oblivious.

When I first went to Greece, in the early months of 1970, as I mentioned in my Post above, there were many pockets of traditional clothing particular to Greek men and women. Very noticeable for me was the black attire of both a man whose wife had reposed, and a woman whose husband had reposed. From the moment their spouse passed on from this life, they clothed themselves only and for the remainder of their lives in black.

Those who were married and younger girls, wore colourful clothing, radiant in the mixture and play of the colours. Yet again it was very modest. Karpathos, the smaller Islands, and northwest parts of Macedonia were areas where one never saw what you would see now in Athinai, or even in Thessaloniki.

The most marked moment was when Greece joined the European Union in 1981, yet it began to appear before this time, similar to the schism between Latin West and Greek East.

When I lived in Romania, from the year 2000 to 2004 and a short visit in 2005, my monastic home was the Monastery of the Archangels, Petru Voda, Neamts. But from there, I saw the entirety of Romania. The Staretz of the Monastery, Fr. Iustin was without mercy; he was a good teacher! I was forever on buses, trains, hitch-hiking to give conferences on Orthodoxy. Why?

Good question. I am not by any means an expert in any facet of the vast and wondorous Orthodox theological spectrum. I was simply a disciple of Father Sophrony (Sakharov). As a result of this connection I saw every Church, convent, monastery, girls school, mixed schools, in all parts of Romania.

Everywhere, except on a few streets of Bucharest was to be witnessed the same expression of clothing.

Yet here was something new to me. For unlike North America, and even Greece, women during the period of the month, knelt outside the Church, be it rain, snow, or sun.

Since I learned Romanian and formed strong brotherly relationships/friendships with many Romanian women ranging from 16 years to 80 years of age, their observation vis a vis their behaviour was remarkably similar.

For them it was honourable to dress like the the Mother of God while in Church. Not only was it honourable, it was the very icon of a woman transfigured. And they never, never expressed ambivalence that they were outside in the cold. It is an Orthodox soul of rare grace that one finds in these women.

Father Iustin built a new Monastery in 1993 (partly because it was more inaccessible and higher up), thus temporarily cutting down on the number of pilgrims who wait outside his door for countless hours, with the most tender patience.

His Monastery Church is a 'Painted Church' which means the exterior walls are frescoed entirely, with Feastal Icons, Old Testament Prophets, the Ladder of Divine Ascent, the Fall of Constantinople etc.

Inside the Church, the entire left hand wall from the very entrance to the Iconostasis is one woman Saint after another, all with headscarves, long skirts, their scroll listing some moment from their life.

This is what the girls/women see if they are not looking directly ahead to the Iconostasis.

This is their formation. This is their anthro-ecclesiology.

Why can I say this with a measure of certainty?

I was repeatedly asked to give talks to the female students of the Theological High School of Agapia Monastery, Neamts. The school is named after St. Paraskeva (Oct. 14th). Here I was to met and find that the Lord was to form long enduring friendships with these young women.

In general, they came from very, very poor families. Romania itself is poor, where the average wage is 1 USD per day; many of the girls came from neighbouring independent Moldova, which is even poorer. Often the Convent would pay the major part of their costs.

What struck me about these young ladies? Their fascination with the world, with literature, art, poetry, music, nature, friendships, with life. But a different quality of life than any young woman I know in North America. Their essential focus was invariably deeply, intuitively hypostatic and Biblical: "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them" [Gen. 1:27]

Yet from whence did this come? Communism fell when most of them were but 7 or 8 years of age. Catechism was forbidden.

It came from the Divine Liturgy, and the other Offices they attended, and I believe very much so from the Iconography arrayed about them. How could it be otherwise? Children are so intuitive, so attuned to what their sight sees and in the Church, the magnificence of the Services holds the children standing (for there are no pews) for hours.

My final point is this: I asked all the Abbesses and Abbots, the Staretz' and Staretza's their opinion on Romania entering the economical structure of the European Union. First I must state clearly, this is not a hidden manifesto against the EU, but when the entire voice of the Elders and Elderess was one: that joining the EU would be i) a disaster for Romania and ii) far more importantly a severe blow to the Church, what then I am to say.

The Abbess of Voronets, a wonderful woman who had endured the Communist said to me: 'Then, at least we knew our enemy; now we will not be able to recognize them.'

The closer people draw to North American culture, the worse their situation becomes spiritually and this is true for all the many Sikhs, Hindus, Buddhists, and Muslim in Canada. The parents hearts are broken even smashed into pieces. I see it time and time again.

It must be declared loud and clear. Our culture is the culture of the Fall. Those who are seduced by it become a distortion of the hypostatic principle in which God so desired for them, by His Incarnation.

How can it not break my heart, to see Orthodox people from noble, great Orthodox pasts, turn into fallen distorted images. And it is exactly this, as our Lord said after the casting out of the Devils, if the Devils return, their state will be far, far worse.

This is the final result of Orthodox, be they craddle Orthodox or converts for decades who renounce Christ and form an ally with the fallen, and ultimately demonic atmosphere of pervasive accedie that hangs over us in North America.

May our Lord and the Theotokos pull from their horses, as once with Saul on his way to Damamscus, those Orthodox (so very blessed) who are enlightened by the darkness of accidie.

[Effie Ganatsios]

Xenia, in no way did I mean to insult you and other women who feel the need to cover their heads in church.

Writing my first message I tried to be honest and just say what was in my heart. There is no need to feel the need to be "politically correct" as you said. Please say whatever you want to - I won't be offended because I know why I spoke as I did and how I feel.

As I said in my last message, we are all conditioned more or less by the environment in which we grew up and in which we now live and the people we are surrounded by.

Please forgive me if I have offended you in any way. I was connected to the Internet when I wrote my messages (not on Word, filed, and then sent the next day) so I didn't check for any apparent arrogance that I might have unintentionally included. The remark about hypocrisy was included because I have met quite a lot of women who dress very, very modestly, long skirts, long sleeves, long hair done up in a french knot, who when you get to know them are, in my opinion, not very christian.

Again, Xenia, please forgive me and let this be the start of a constructive discussion between us.

Effie

[Effie Ganatsios]

Dear Father Seraphim, thank you for your response.

Re Greece : I totally agree with you that some women come to the church services wearing unsuitable clothes.

In the Old Calendar churches women attend services dressed as you have described and a stricter adherence to the Orthodox faith is one of the reasons that many people have switched back to the Old Calendar. The countries you mentioned are also Old Calendar.

Re monasteries : When someone decides to visit a monastery in Greece it goes without saying that he or she will know the correct clothes to wear. Most people visit monasteries while on an excursion and as trousers are the most practical form of dress while travelling, women will either take a long skirt with them or will be provided with one by the monastery. I visited the Souroti monastery near Thessaloniki last summer (this is where Brother Paisios is buried) and although I myself was wearing a long skirt I saw that in a basket next to the main door skirts that fasten at the waist were provided for visitors. A notice above the basket asked the women to respect this rule. This monastery is so unbelievably beautiful and all of Brother Paisios’ books are on sale here - quite a few have been translated into English.

In Greece – I live in north west Greece – women stand on the left hand side of the church and men on the right – this has not changed.

You said something that I did not understand at all : “We faced martyrdom daily due to September 11th, as had the Rum Orthodox on that island and the entire monastery in the mid-fifties.”

What has the attack in the US on the 11th of September have to do with monasteries and the Orthodox religion? And why “martyrdom”? And excuse me for my ignorance, but who are the Rum Orthodox? What happened to the monastery in the mid-fifties?

Re : the Orthodox Church in Greece

We Greeks are the first to admit that there is a lot wrong with the Church here in Greece but please, don’t for a moment believe that we are happy about this. As I mentioned earlier, quite a few people have started to attend services at the Old Calendar churches in my city because of a need for a simpler, more honest Christianity, one approaching closer to the one that Christ intended for us.

When I first came here I had great difficulty coming to terms with some of the things I saw concerning the Church but my husband helped me immeasurably by making me see that I don’t go to church for the priests or tradition or because it is expected of me, I go because of the need for communion with God.

Father, you also say : “In particular your exegesis on simplicity is rather far stretched. It brings deep sorrow to my heart. “

It is painfully obvious that I didn’t express myself correctly. I, of course, meant that the closer we come to God the more we see that all the baggage we have loaded ourselves with – various possessions i.e. houses, cars, clothes – are hindering us in our spiritual path. Instead of concentrating on God we concentrate on what we have and what we need and what we will buy next. Simplifying our clothing is just another way of not needing to spend so much time pampering our bodies.

Mary is right though when she says that her clothes make her aware of who she is (or aspires to be).

I’m sorry that you have had a bad experience with Greek women but aggressive types are found in all countries and are not necessarily an indication of the character of the general population.

Effie

[Effie Ganatsios]

Hi Mary

Your comment : “My outward appearance is a starting place, but also a goal - it's where I want my heart to be. For instance, every once in a while, I can't stand my kids anymore and I rip into them... but when I become aware of what I'm wearing, I realize how incongruous my action is with what I look like... a true woman doesn't lose control of her temper. So, my repentance is much more speedier than it ever was before.”

Mary, please read the last part of my message to Father Seraphim. This is exactly what I meant. Your clothes are not just the result of what you feel inside but they are also a reminder of what you want to achieve. And they also serve as a reminder of the type of person you want to be. You sound like a wonderful person and true beauty always comes from the heart – this is not just a saying I am repeating but a truth I know, based on the people I have known during my quite long life.

Effie

[Angie]

Gooday!

I will put my 2cents worth which means nothing, and say that wearing a headscarf is a personal matter. I know as it is hard when no young people wear it these days.

It is good to wear it, and forget about it. You know why you wear it and that's enough. If someone asks you, you can answer them in a humble way, so as to enlighten them.

It was very hard for me at first, as I did get a lot of stares, but in the end it does not bother me at all. I do it for obediance. I too pray at home with it, and attend church with a scarf on my head. Sure I look like an old lady, but who cares, maybe I will get offered a seat at chuch!(just kidding). Just a little humour for you, I had an operation on my knee,(that's not the funny bit!) so I had to go to church with my hubby on my arm, my headscarf on and a walking stick! How good's that?

Also, I have been told white is only to be worn by single ladies.

In Christ
Angela+++

[Andreas Moran]

My wife wears a head scarf in Russia but not at the monastery here in Essex because most women don't. I'd be sorry if a young woman felt moved to enter a church in Russia but was put off by some babushka shouting at her because she hadn't got a scarf (which we have seen). In April, on our way back to Moscow from Kolomna, we stopped over in Mihailovo and went into a church which turned out to be Old Rite within MP. The priest, Fr Yevgeny, heard us speaking English and came to talk with us. I asked him why they stuck so rigidly to so many rules of conduct, not just clothing, and he said it was definitely not from pharisaicism or thinking that thereby they were any better Christians but as a way of trying to entrust themselves and their whole life to Christ our God. He invited us to stay for dinner, and what was to have been a few minutes break became a two-hour stay. After experiencing the gentleness, kindness and hospitality of Fr Yevgeny, his matushka and their little community, I have since felt differently about those I might have regarded as extreme and whom I had, I confess, tended to judge.

[Kris]

And excuse me for my ignorance, but who are the Rum Orthodox?

Roum is an Arabic word meaning Roman, normally refering to the Byzantine Empire. Roum Orthodox is simply the Arabic term for what is otherwise called Greek Orthodox.

It's a term I'm particularly fond of since explaining to people that 'Greek' Orthodox does not necessarily have anything to do with being from Greece has gotten rather tiresome.

Actually, if the moderator could modify the 'Religion' part of the profile to allow people to choose "Byzantine Orthodox (EP)" or "Roman Orthodox (EP)" instead of "Greek Orthodox (EP)" it would be most welcome ;)

In XC,
Kris

[Elzabet]

Gooday!

I will put my 2cents worth which means nothing, and say that wearing a headscarf is a personal matter. I know as it is hard when no young people wear it these days.

It is good to wear it, and forget about it. You know why you wear it and that's enough. If someone asks you, you can answer them in a humble way, so as to enlighten them.

It was very hard for me at first, as I did get a lot of stares, but in the end it does not bother me at all. I do it for obediance. I too pray at home with it, and attend church with a scarf on my head. Sure I look like an old lady, but who cares, maybe I will get offered a seat at chuch!(just kidding). Just a little humour for you, I had an operation on my knee,(that's not the funny bit!) so I had to go to church with my hubby on my arm, my headscarf on and a walking stick! How good's that?

Also, I have been told white is only to be worn by single ladies.

In Christ
Angela+++

What she said. I've been wearing scarves daily for over two years now. I know what it means. I don't have time to worry about what other people think and when I am asked I say that it is in obedience to God because I am so weak that I forget my true covering otherwise.

In Him
Beth

[Effie Ganatsios]

Hi Chris. The word we use is Romios (I didn't recognize the spelling in the message I was answering). It's an old word. In the Greek language we are called Hellenes (you don't pronounce the "h") just as Greece is (H)Ellas.

The words "Greek Orthodox" are used because Greek was the common language then during the Byzantine period. It wasn't until St. Cyril and his brother - Greeks from Thessaloniki - developed a Slav alphabet and translated the bible and the Orthodox liturgy into Slav that Greek became less widely used. These brothers were highly educated and excellent linguists and believed that the faithful had the right to hear the liturgy in their own language.

Effie

[John Charmley]

Dear Trudy,

When you wrote about your unpleasant experience

Sadly, the one particular man who continues to make comments made me quite uncomfortable this past week. Sunday, I feel his comment crossed the "funny/joking/teasing" line into the "uncomfortable" arena.

It was pleasantly warm this past Sunday so I wore a (very modest), muted green (since it was Pentecost), floor length dress with short sleeves , a summer straw hat, and sandals. It was warm in the church due to our "new-to-us" air conditioner system which doesn't work particularly well but is better than nothing.

As I walked down the outside steps to go to my car, he (while standing with his sons & father) made a remark about how hot I must have been in my hat and was glad to see I was not wearing pantyhose. Excuse me?! I made some smart remark back to him and hurried to my car. He pays that close attention to what I am wearing so as to notice I'm NOT wearing pantyhose in a LONG dress?!??!
it set off a half remembered quotation from one of the Fathers, which I have now tracked down and offer to you as a shield against such talk.

In The Instructor Book II, Chapter XI, Clement of Alexandria advises:

you may with great propriety use the language addressed to him who said, “Your arm is beautiful; yes, but it is not for the public gaze. Your thighs are beautiful; but, was the reply, for my husband alone. And your face is comely. Yes; but only for him who has married me.”

I do hope the behaviour you mention has stopped; but I hope Clement of Alexandria may be a shield to you here.

In Christ,

John

[Effie Ganatsios]

I also wanted to say something about your unpleasant experience Trudy. I wrote the message and then thought better of sending it because I felt that perhaps it was too late.

Reading John's message however, I thought it might be OK for me to also reply.

For Trudy
“As I walked down the outside steps to go to my car, he (while standing with his sons & father) made a remark about how hot I must have been in my hat and was glad to see I was not wearing pantyhose. Excuse me?! I made some smart remark back to him and hurried to my car. He pays that close attention to what I am wearing so as to notice I'm NOT wearing pantyhose in a LONG dress?!??!”

Trudy, has this problem been solved? After rereading your above message – carefully this time – I wanted to say that this man was not being rude about the way you dress. What he was doing was sexually harassing you (someone else mentioned this in a message).

If the problem still exists, I would have another quiet word with the priest in confidence. He could then privately discuss the matter with this man – or at least let him know that you have someone’s support and aren’t vulnerable. This seems to be an ongoing thing so perhaps you should ask the priest just why this man thinks he is free to act this way.

As you teach Sunday School to this man’s sons, the more quietly everything is settled the better it will be for them because they don’t need to see their father humiliated – although how he could say such a thing in front of them and in front of his own father is something I just don’t understand.

Don’t confront him yourself – just ignore him and he’ll soon realize that his behaviour is inappropriate. He needs your reaction to reinforce his opinion of himself – don’t give him that satisfaction!

Wasn’t there anyone near you when this happened? No-one to defend you and take him to task concerning the absolutely inexcusable way he spoke to you?

One of the things I love about this country is the fact that women are so free but at the same time so protected here. Lots of women attend church without their husbands but a man would need to be drunk to ever speak to a woman like that – and if he were drunk he probably wouldn’t be at church, would he?

Hope everything is all right now.

Effie

[Trudy]

Dear John,

Thank you for those comforting words and prayers. They are very much appreciated.

Dear Effie,

Thank you for your advice. Yesterday morning I spoke with my spiritual big brother who gave me very, very specific guidance on what to do which is in line with what you suggested. I assured him I would follow his words to the letter. After speaking with him, God blessed me with 100% peace.

Later I realized that I had been struggling with what I felt (afraid, exposed) versus the feelings of "I should have done something different/behaved differently to prevent this from happening." In other words, that I had/was continuing to do something to invite the words. My spiritual big brother, as well as my priest, have firmly (very firmly!) told me that is not the case.

Sunday will be the first time I am back at church where this man is. As I asked Father to speak with him before them, I trust he has accomplished it. Therefore, I will be attending church with peace.

In Christ's love,
Trudy

[John Charmley]

Dear Trudy,

My thoughts and prayers will be with you; I am sure they will be joined by those of many others here.

In Christ,

John

[Paul Cowan]

Dear Trudy,

My thoughts and prayers will be with you; I am sure they will be joined by those of many others here.

Yes they will. Be strong and at peace and if he does say anything... then deck him. :0)

[Mary]

Effie, thank you for your kind words.

I've been thinking so much about hyporcricy and judging each other, the last few days! I think it's particularly hard to see those sins in ourselves. I for one, feel I'm not truly judging another if I'm speaking from my heart. That may be true, or it may not, I cannot even judge myself, because I judge wrong.

But I discovered a mirror yesterday. And she sure is lovely! My five year old daughter was upset because her big brother was telling her that the new cooking kit that had come in the mail was his; and this, after I'd said it would be hers. Of course, he was just trying to annoy her. I told her, he doesn't have the authority to change my words. If I say it's hers, it's hers. BUT, I expect them to share with each other. So, whenever she made popsicles with her new kit, I expected her to share some with him. That sent her into a fit of tears, she did not want him to have any. But she would let me have some. I asked her: "How could I enjoy a popsicle with you, if he can't have one? I'll have to refuse the popsicle you give me." That hurt even more, because she really did want to share with me...

Then, I told her, just as he doens't have the authority to tell her what's hers and what's not, she doesn't have the authority to judge or punish him. I would punish him, but she shouldn't punish him further, by withholding a popsicle from him. She didn't like what I said. As I held her and listened to her cry, everything I had said to her reflected right back at me!

I was asking her to do something that was difficult for her, but it was the right thing to do. Until she could share with him, she couldn't share with me. Her breaking fellowship with him, broke her fellowship with me. I'm much older than her, it's no trouble for me to share popsicles with those who have hurt me. But, there are things that I withhold - not just from those who have hurt me, but also from those whom I have judged as being hypocritical and not truly Christian.

The thing I withhold the most is Respect. I may not roll my eyes on the outside, but they sure do roll around inside! I withhold love... to such an extent that I have even forgotten what love truly is. Perhaps I never knew. And yet, I know that there are some whom I love and some I don't. Perhpas it's connected to respect. There are those whose words I pay attention to with all the focus I've got, and then there are those whom I have no time for. There are those whose e-mails I respond to instantly and others whom I haven't replied to for months. There are those, for whom I want to do things for, and those, who even if they ask, I look for excuses to not help them.

I cannot hold myself to the same standard that I hold my daughter to. For her, it's hard enough to share a popsicle. But if she does, she has doen a great thing. If I think I have stopped judging or being hypocritical because I can share with those I love and also with those who've hurt me, then I've become blind and stopped growing. My standard should be higher than hers. And it will probably keep getting higher the closer I get to it - further out of reach, harder to attain.

So here I am... struggling to share my 'popsicles' as much as she is struggling to share hers. And I have a feeling, she'll be able to do her task sooner, not because it's easier, but because she's not as judgemental and hypocritical and lacking in love as I am.

The other lesson I've learned - preach sparingly at my daughter... there's only so much reflection that I can take!

In Christ,

Mary.

[Trudy]

Sunday will be the first time I am back at church where this man is.

Dear Fellow members,

Thanks be to God for the prayers of brothers and sisters in Christ. Being at church today was very peaceful. Not one single comment about my hat, dress, or any other thing.

The person from last week did not look at me, speak to me, or anything else. It was about one of the best Sunday's in a long time.

My humble thanks to all who prayed.

In Christ, Trudy

[Xenia Rose]

Xenia, in no way did I mean to insult you and other women who feel the need to cover their heads in church.

Writing my first message I tried to be honest and just say what was in my heart. There is no need to feel the need to be "politically correct" as you said. Please say whatever you want to - I won't be offended because I know why I spoke as I did and how I feel.

As I said in my last message, we are all conditioned more or less by the environment in which we grew up and in which we now live and the people we are surrounded by.

Please forgive me if I have offended you in any way. I was connected to the Internet when I wrote my messages (not on Word, filed, and then sent the next day) so I didn't check for any apparent arrogance that I might have unintentionally included.

The remark about hypocrisy was included because I have met quite a lot of women who dress very, very modestly, long skirts, long sleeves, long hair done up in a french knot, who when you get to know them are, in my opinion, not very christian.

Again, Xenia, please forgive me and let this be the start of a constructive discussion between us.

Effie

Maybe we could have a constructive discussion about the bolded part of this post?

I would like more clarification as to just how "Christian" I need to be in order to not be hypocritical for wearing a headscarf.

[Effie Ganatsios]

The fact that woman like the ones I wrote about exist has nothing to do with others who are sincere and who are following their hearts. You, for example and the other women who posted on this thread. Or my many friends who dress in a variety of ways but who are no less honest than you and even me.

Every Monday afternoon I attend a woman's meeting with women whose every thought is dedicated to God. (in fact it's taking place right now but I'm ill with a bad cold so I'm stuck at home). It is called H stegi tou Paediou - stegi means a roof over ones head and paidi means child - a Child's Shelter. There is first a lecture - the last one was about the fact that one can no longer rely on the public schools (not public as the term is used in England but those schools paid for by the government) to teach our children even the rudiments of our religion. And after the lecture we talked about what we could do as women, either mothers, grandmothers, aunts, or just plain friends. We are a mixture of women - the oldest member in our particular get together (and one of the most active because she's the secretary) is over 80 and we also have very young women. There is another group of really old women who get together every Wednesday but I've only met them a few times - at special meetings or concerts or trips - we were once given a dinner by the despoti of Kilkis and then had a guided trip to Vergina - the home of King Phillip and Alexander the Great. The museum there is absolutely fantastic.

Every summer there are three different summer camps organized for children at Chalkidiki - near the sea and we are volunteers. Although it's hard work, I agree with my sister in law when she said that she wouldn't miss it for the world - the peace, the campfires, the services - a spiritual retreat while at the same time we are helping others.

After my long- winded buildup Xenia, what I wanted to say was that a few of these women are more modestly dressed than the others - although for me this means that some women prefer longer skirts and others comfortable slacks. We are all "sisters" - and the great thing is that I have never heard a murmur of gossip about clothes or anything else. In fact the respect we have for one another is one of the reasons I keep going.

This group is one of the oldest groups of Christian women in our city - in fact quite a few of them were leaders of the Guide movement here - and we are responsible for a variety of activities that help children. Fortunately our city is still small enough for there not to be too many problems - everyone used to know everyone else and the older families still do - but there are always those who need our help in some way or other. Some of us have Red Cross certificates and voluntarily help out at the Old People's Home (not me because I didn't want to do the course - too afraid ), some of us have talents that can be used to help others. I have volunteered to teach small children English or even just to take care of them when their mothers need to do something and have no one to look after them for a few hours. We have sent a lot of money and goods to other countries to help children -those living in war zones especially.


I'm sorry I had to say all the above. I am not trying to give myself credentials or anything. I just wanted you to know that I live in an atmosphere of love and trust - one of my fondest memories is the time a close friend stood up and asked if she could sing a song to the Virgin Mary - one she had learnt at school. Her voice trembled at the beginning a little because so many women were looking at her but then it's sweetness touched us all. This was a song of praise and it was sung by a woman who had lost a young son in circumstances so tragic that very few women would have kept their sanity.
Her husband was my father's first cousin - she is the same age as I am - and he was responsible for the accident that killed their son. He never got over his sorrow and died two years ago. And yet, this woman stood up and thanked the Theotokos.

None of us wear scarves on our heads in Church, Xenia, but I honestly do not think that this matters one way or the other. I'm sorry I can't agree with you concerning this subject but, once more, believe that just because I am used to saying what I feel, this does not mean that I am criticizing you.

Effie

I would prefer not to discuss this matter further because there is nothing else I can say to you about my motives, if your mind is already made up.

[Xenia Rose]

The fact that woman like the ones I wrote about exist has nothing to do with others who are sincere and who are following their hearts. You, for example and the other women who posted on this thread. Or my many friends who dress in a variety of ways but who are no less honest than you and even me.

Every Monday afternoon I attend a woman's meeting with women whose every thought is dedicated to God. (in fact it's taking place right now but I'm ill with a bad cold so I'm stuck at home). It is called H stegi tou Paediou - stegi means a roof over ones head and paidi means child - a Child's Shelter. There is first a lecture - the last one was about the fact that one can no longer rely on the public schools (not public as the term is used in England but those schools paid for by the government) to teach our children even the rudiments of our religion. And after the lecture we talked about what we could do as women, either mothers, grandmothers, aunts, or just plain friends. We are a mixture of women - the oldest member in our particular get together (and one of the most active because she's the secretary) is over 80 and we also have very young women. There is another group of really old women who get together every Wednesday but I've only met them a few times - at special meetings or concerts or trips - we were once given a dinner by the despoti of Kilkis and then had a guided trip to Vergina - the home of King Phillip and Alexander the Great. The museum there is absolutely fantastic.

Every summer there are three different summer camps organized for children at Chalkidiki - near the sea and we are volunteers. Although it's hard work, I agree with my sister in law when she said that she wouldn't miss it for the world - the peace, the campfires, the services - a spiritual retreat while at the same time we are helping others.

After my long- winded buildup Xenia, what I wanted to say was that a few of these women are more modestly dressed than the others - although for me this means that some women prefer longer skirts and others comfortable slacks. We are all "sisters" - and the great thing is that I have never heard a murmur of gossip about clothes or anything else. In fact the respect we have for one another is one of the reasons I keep going.

This group is one of the oldest groups of Christian women in our city - in fact quite a few of them were leaders of the Guide movement here - and we are responsible for a variety of activities that help children. Fortunately our city is still small enough for there not to be too many problems - everyone used to know everyone else and the older families still do - but there are always those who need our help in some way or other. Some of us have Red Cross certificates and voluntarily help out at the Old People's Home (not me because I didn't want to do the course - too afraid ), some of us have talents that can be used to help others. I have volunteered to teach small children English or even just to take care of them when their mothers need to do something and have no one to look after them for a few hours. We have sent a lot of money and goods to other countries to help children -those living in war zones especially.


I'm sorry I had to say all the above. I am not trying to give myself credentials or anything. I just wanted you to know that I live in an atmosphere of love and trust - one of my fondest memories is the time a close friend stood up and asked if she could sing a song to the Virgin Mary - one she had learnt at school. Her voice trembled at the beginning a little because so many women were looking at her but then it's sweetness touched us all. This was a song of praise and it was sung by a woman who had lost a young son in circumstances so tragic that very few women would have kept their sanity.
Her husband was my father's first cousin - she is the same age as I am - and he was responsible for the accident that killed their son. He never got over his sorrow and died two years ago. And yet, this woman stood up and thanked the Theotokos.

None of us wear scarves on our heads in Church, Xenia, but I honestly do not think that this matters one way or the other. I'm sorry I can't agree with you concerning this subject but, once more, believe that just because I am used to saying what I feel, this does not mean that I am criticizing you.

Effie

I would prefer not to discuss this matter further because there is nothing else I can say to you about my motives, if your mind is already made up.


I understand that you do not wish to discuss it further. The fact that you have not answered my question but instead gave a long detailed description about how women who don't wear headscarves are good people indicates it.

The issue is not if women who don't wear headscarves are good or not. That has never come up in this thread.

The issue is... your statement about people who wear headscarves as being hypocritical.

I think you could answer my question... just what do I need to do to proove that I am NOT hypocritical to wear a headscarf?

I am calling you out on being judgemental.

The fact is that ALL men and women are weak and sinners and we have all fallen short of the glory of God.

Your assumption that we who choose to wear headscarves think we are better then others is what I am addressing. Leaving the conversation because you dont' want to deal with that is unfair imo. But if you go, please I ask you discuss your judgement of me and others in confession.

[Paul Cowan]

Dear Xenia and Effie,

Forgive me for barging in here on the open forum, but if I might comment on what you asked of her Xenia on the open forum.


The remark about hypocrisy was included because I have met quite a lot of women who dress very, very modestly, long skirts, long sleeves, long hair done up in a french knot, who when you get to know them are, in my opinion, not very christian.


From my reading of this text you bolded for her to respond to, she is not attacking you or others that wear head scarves specifically. She is saying she knows people who wear them on the outside yet turn around and are not "christian" by their actions. Surely you know what that looks like.


Romans 1: 28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality,[c] wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving,[d] unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.

She nowhere, I could find said YOU were being any of these things. But people she knew in her relations with people were.

What she did say was all in the first person...


Speaking honestly, and once again, only for myself, if I were to wear a head scarf I would feel that I was only pretending, and that's the reason I don't. If I felt that I should I would have no hesitation in wearing one. Our friends and surroundings influence us a lot more than we're willing to acknowledge and it takes a lot of courage to be different.... as we all know.


The fact is that ALL men and women are weak and sinners and we have all fallen short of the glory of God.


Yes, this is true. Of all of us. And according to verse 32 above, I should be put to death first.


Your assumption that we who choose to wear headscarves think we are better then others is what I am addressing. Leaving the conversation because you dont' want to deal with that is unfair imo. But if you go, please I ask you discuss your judgement of me and others in confession.

I do not see her saying those who wear them think you are better than others because who do not wear them. Perhaps leaving the conversation from the open forum leaves room to continue this in a PM between you? IMO the last sentence is arrogant. Perhaps those that feel so offended should look in the mirror for why they feel so offended.

The people I like the least are those that make me look at myself.

Paul

[Trudy]

Once again, this thread has brought about some good fruit.

To be very honest, I find myself agreeing with Effie regarding hypocrisy. In the end, it seems to me that, it is what is on the inside that matters most and only God can see that. I do believe that what shows on the outside, be the actions/words/dress/whatever, are a direct reflection on what is going on inside.

What I hope for myself is that as I make small changes on the outside, that the reverse will happen and some of it will seep inside! :-) For example, while a teen in high school the multiple earring trend was at its beginning stage. My Dad told me never to get additional holes in my ears. So what did I do when I turned 18? Ran out and got one ear pierced again! It was an act of definance. He never noticed it until I pointed it out to him. Eventually I got a 3rd hole in the same ear! Why? Rebellion.

Now I have taken two of the three out. Why? Because the initial choice was in direct rebellion against my Father. Do I think multiple piercings in ears is bad or wrong? No, I don't. But for myself, I needed to confess the rebellion and turn away from it. I lived that out by removing the earrings.

A head covering, be it hat or scarf, is one of many tools in my spiritual toolbox. So was the removal of the extra earrings. I am using them as tools to deepen my spiritual life because they help remind me of humility and repentance.

But I am also very aware that each person's spiritual toolbox contains different items. No doubt there are many tools that are the same: Divine Liturgy, Vespers, prayer rule, confession, etc. And of course there are tools that are different: head covering, two earrings rather than 3 or 6 or whatever, long dresses when in Church, etc.

It would be hypocritical of me to point at another and tell them the tools they are using are wrong because it is none of my business. It is with this point that I see all of us agreeing.

Thanks for everyone's thoughts.

Trudy

[Effie Ganatsios]

First of all thank you. I was beginning to feel that I needed to go over the same things again and again but without any results.

Now to the strange part. I wrote my reply to Mary last night offline because I wanted to be extra careful with my answer. I filed it, intending to post it this morning.

This morning (it's now 8 am) I read your message and Trudy's and, this is so strange but many of the things you wrote in your message were exactly those that I wrote in mine. I'm going to post Mary's message anyway because there are things I want to say to her especially.

I have so many faults, as we all do, that I'm afraid I'm kept busy just trying to improve a little - by the time I think to myself "OK, I've made some progress here", another fault pops up entirely unexpectedly.

Thanks for understanding my meaning Paul.

Effie

[Effie Ganatsios]

Dear Mary, I took some time to answer your message because I wanted to think about the things you said.

Who among us is not guilty of hypocrisy and of being judgemental. We would be saints if we weren’t.

I like the fact that you are not afraid to be totally honest with yourself and also that you force me to do the same. I apparently hurt some people who have decided that wearing a scarf, not just to church but at all times, is right.

I have just reread my original message carefully and I am afraid that I just don’t see where I intentionally meant to offend anyone. I was speaking generally when I said that you have to examine yourself and ask yourself why you dress the way you do (the “you” I use when speaking is not you personally Mary, but again – as in my first message – a substitute for all of us. I should perhaps use the word “women”. ) In another message and in order to explain my first one, I also mentioned my personal experience of the arrogance and unchristian like behavior of women here who dress in a certain way and are known as “Sunday School” Christians – why they are called this I don’t know.

I usually base my opinions on what I have experienced myself and leave the theological explanations to those who know better than I. I always include something from my own life that demonstrates what I am trying to say and I see that you do the same.

I admire you for sticking up for yourself and your beliefs just as I think I have the right to do the same for myself. If I came to a point in my life where I felt I had to dress differently, would I have to courage to go against everyone else and just do it? I honestly don’t know.


The funny part of all this is that I dress very conservatively, in fact when any of my sisters come here on holiday the first thing they do is try to change me (I’m the oldest but that doesn’t prevent them from babying me…………).

effie

p.s. there was a programme on TV a couple of weeks ago about Muslims who live in Athens and the clothes they wear. There were 3 Muslim women being interviewed and their head coverings were beautiful. I don't know whether they arrange the material this way themselves or whether these head coverings are ready made and they buy them this way and then just slip them on.

[Mary]

Dear Mary, I took some time to answer your message because I wanted to think about the things you said.

Who among us is not guilty of hypocrisy and of being judgemental. We would be saints if we weren’t.

I like the fact that you are not afraid to be totally honest with yourself and also that you force me to do the same. I apparently hurt some people who have decided that wearing a scarf, not just to church but at all times, is right.

I have just reread my original message carefully and I am afraid that I just don’t see where I intentionally meant to offend anyone. I was speaking generally when I said that you have to examine yourself and ask yourself why you dress the way you do (the “you” I use when speaking is not you personally Mary, but again – as in my first message – a substitute for all of us. I should perhaps use the word “women”. ) In another message and in order to explain my first one, I also mentioned my personal experience of the arrogance and unchristian like behavior of women here who dress in a certain way and are known as “Sunday School” Christians – why they are called this I don’t know.

effie



Dear Effie,

You just made me smile... =)

Paul wasn't the only one who understood what you've been saying, I do too. But I also understand what Xenia is saying, her words are exactly what went through my head when I first read your post. Paul, of course, can't be expected to understand her, because, hopefully, he's not a woman who wears a headcovering =)

Effie, thanks for taking the time to think about my posts. And thank you too, for going back to your original posts to search for intentional judgemental statements you may have made. You didn't find any because there weren't any. BUT.... Xenia reacted to something you said, and I know a few of those things she reacted to, because I reacted to the exact same things. I chose to accept your explaination that you meant no disrespect, etc, but my first thoughts and reactions were definitely those that came from feeling that I'd been judged.

It's obvious that we agree about all the important stuff such as:

1. we are all sinners, whether we cover our heads or not.
2. We all judge and are hypocritical
3. What's in our hearts is more important than what's on our heads or bodies.

And Paul brought out something, just not sure if we all agree:


4. The people I like the least are those that make me look at myself.


And that's because, they are reflecting our own weaknesses back at us, and we hate our own weaknesses, but it's always easier to see it in others than to see it in ourselves.

Since you've gone back and examined your words and come up with nothing, I'm going to presume that you really do care about the way you say things and do not wish to offend anyone. So, if I may, I'd like to point out to you the things that you said, that offended me and Xenia - and please - I KNOW they were unintentional... they just needed to be phrased slightly differently in order to get rid of the unintentional judgemental nature of them. Please dont' feel like you need to answer any of my questions or thoughts, it's just for you to think about, from a different angle.

Going back to your first post, you said:
Could I join this discussion? Not as an authority on this subject but just to outline (and perhaps clarify for my own benefit) some thoughts on what I believe orthodox Christians should and shouldn’t wear- especially in church.

First, did you wait till we said you could join? Yes, those were my exact thoughts, till I took a deep breath and admitted that this is a public forum and anyone is entitled to join any discussion. If you go back and read my reply to you, you'll notice that I pointed out to you that this thread had nothing to do with what orthodox Christians should or shouldn't wear, which simply put, meant: "Your opinions have no place here, this is not what we're talking about." Or in Xenia's words:
So, I ask, why do you feel it necessary to come here to judge me and others who do wear a scarf? (post #91)

You end your post by saying:
Hope some of my disconnected thoughts have been of help.


Help for what? What was the problem you were addressing? There was no problem. There were no questions. No one wanted to know if it was right or wrong to wear headcoverings.

Again from the first post:
We should be careful of pride that masquerades as humility. Is what you wear externally a sign of your internal state? Or is wearing long dresses and headscarves a way of telling people that you are a “good Christian”? These are questions that you need to answer – not to justify yourself to others but to find your own path to God.

You started your thought well with "We should be careful..." That 'We' is extremely important. But very quickly, you separated yourself from us when you switched from 'we' to 'you'. These are great questions for self examination. But, using 'you', instead of 'we', turned it from self examination into an interrogation. Where you trying to help us examine our hearts, because we may have failed to do so ourselves? If we had indeed failed to examine our motives, is it not the place of our spiritual fathers to question us? Do you know, better than we do, the kind of questions we need to ask ourselves?

Finally:
Clothes are very important, I agree. I have seen women wear tight cream trousers to church..... drawing attention to an area of their bodies that only their husbands should be privileged enough to see – in fact I am sure that if these women could see their backsides as others do they wouldn’t wear trousers at all – in or out of church. But, I have also had the irritating experience of having listened to modestly dressed women chatter all through the service.... Both these types of women draw attention to themselves during the service and prevent others from concentrating.


Here, you have judged women who wear tight pants and women who can't stop talking. Was that really necessary? We all know women like that... SO WHAT? They're there so we can see how sinful we ourselves are. We would not be distracted if our hearts were truly worshipping and completely lost in the prayers and the hymns. What they have done on the outside, we have done on the inside.

I'm not just saying that, I've experienced it. Sometimes, my kids distract me in church more than at other times. They get tired and they climb the chairs, crawl under, lie on the floor, roll over and act like they're totally retarted. There are days when every little thing they do distracts me to no end. And then there have been days when they have the nerve to talk to me and ask me questions in the middle of the service, and still, my heart isnt' disturbed. When I find myself easily distracted, I know I'm not worshipping and it's nobody's fault but my own.

Before I finish my terribly long reply, the thing that Xenia wanted to talk about:
The remark about hypocrisy was included because I have met quite a lot of women who dress very, very modestly, long skirts, long sleeves, long hair done up in a french knot, who when you get to know them are, in my opinion, not very christian.


Xenia wanted to know what would make her 'Christian' enough to wear a scarf without being hypocritical... Why did you not want to answer that? Seeing that we all agree that a headscarf is no indication that you've stopped sinning/judging or being hypocritical, how is it that you can still say that someone is not very Christian? Which of us is? Or is it simply that you have a double standard? A higher one for those who dress modestly and a lower one for those who don't? I do... I have a higher standard for myself than I do for others. I have a higher standard for my kids than for the kids of others. And the one I'm trying to get rid of: I have a higher standard for those who are older than myself. So hard for me to respect someone who I think should know better...

While it's true that you're speaking from your experience and not speaking about us... it becomes judgemental because you do not know us and the unspoken thoughts that fly at us are: "Make sure that you're not like the hypocritical women that I know!"

Please forgive me, Effie. I hope I haven't hurt and offended you by being so direct and merciless. You shouldn't admire me for sticking up for my beliefs. Xenia spoke my true thoughts, I was too much of a coward to say what I really thought.

In Christ,

Mary.

[Xenia Rose]

Mary, Yes, you said exactly what I am wondering about.

There is this lovely woman in our parish who is just great. I love her very much. She gets offended when people do not wear long dresses or skirts, and do not cover their hair. She feels they are being disrepectful in church.

There is another woman in a neighboring parish who I respect very very much. I think she is a great person. I wish we were closer friends. She never ever ever wears any thing on her head. Her skirts are often as short as her knees. She wears pants to church also. I have seen her in nice "dressy" shorts in church too and sleaveless tops.

They are both very very good role models for me in so many ways. I wish I was more like both of them.

I am a very direct person who is not afraid to stand up to authority figures and tell them they are wrong. I work with criminals for a living and feel that it is best for me to be forthright and direct with them. I am one of the most assertive people you will ever meet.... I have to be to work in the field I work in and literally survive physically (in other words, not get killed.)

I had a choice in which church I would attend. The one where the older woman goes who encourages others to wear headscarves, and in which the Priest does not require it but sees headscarves as something that could be beneficial to a woman's spiritual growth. Or another parish where not one woman wears a headscarf (except honestly, some visiting people might.)

Both parishes are OCA and both the same distance from my home. One is airconditioned the other is not.

I know me, I know my issues, I know the need for balance I have. I know that it is better for me to not go to a parish where I would dress differently then others because, honestly, that would just feed into my assertiveness and willingness to stand up to others.

I also know that wearing a headscarf is humbling for me. I need that. I need to be reminded by wearing it. I need to see just how weak I really am. I need to recognize just how unfit I am as a Christian. I know that the scarf compares me to the Saints in the icons around me, to the Theotokos, and I know, I am not fit to be compared to them.

This is the tool I need. Other people might not need this tool. They might be better then me, more fit then me. I am the one who needs this tool and they do not.

Then to find that so many people judge me for wearing the scarf and think that I am saying I am better then them? Preposterous!

A scarf on my head is training wheels to a bicycle for me. Others may very well be far far more advanced then me. I need this tool.

As long as people judge us who wear headscarves as being "hypocritical" or even worse in "prelest" there will be woman who won't use this tool. Other woman who would benefit from this tool but who are afraid of this judgement.

And I feel the need to stand up and say This is just not right and we need to stand up against it!

Effie... you are more then welcome to think I am less Christian then you are! You are probably right. But I will not tolerate you accuseing me of thinking I am a better one then you because I need training wheels and you do not.

I recognize that you don't like me. I wish I cared more about that. But I would rather you dislike me and stop judging my fellow sisters who also need training wheels then just let this one "go" and be polite.

[Mary]

As long as people judge us who wear headscarves as being "hypocritical" or even worse in "prelest" there will be woman who won't use this tool. Other woman who would benefit from this tool but who are afraid of this judgement.

And I feel the need to stand up and say This is just not right and we need to stand up against it!



Well... ok. I hear what you're saying. But we're talking about the Church, our own family members, not criminals. We dont' have to approach it the same way that we approach injustice in society or in the work place. (Perhaps, Shouldn't, is the right word... )

I agree with you that we have to stand up for what is right. And not everyone has the ability to do that, so it's nice to have a stronger person go bat for you. In fact, I did that for four years in nursing school because I was the only fool headed student who wasn't afraid of any of the teachers or even the principal, and in the hospital, I wasn't afraid of any of the nurses we worked under, the nursing superintendent or even the doctors and the Med. Supt. I thought it was my God-given responsibility to make sure that all the injustices were brought to light so the authorities could start fixing things. Never for a moment did I think about consequences, I just did what I thought was the right thing to do. Maybe I was right, maybe I was wrong, I don't know.

So, I do understand your desire to defend the Scarfwearers and Wanna-be-Scarfwearers from being judged. BUT, this is a totally different dimension that we're dealing with. Do you think that telling people to not judge, will help them to not judge? If such a thing were possible, then the Law that God gave Moses, would've saved the Jews, and then the world.

I don't think that's it's necessary for others to stop judging us in order for us to do what is right. If some woman wants to wear a scarf and she doesn't because she's afraid of being judged, it means she doesnt' have her eyes on God... she's looking around at her brothers and sisters, afraid of what she has imagined is in their minds. And she may be totally wrong, because, there may not be a single person around her, who would judge her of being hypocritical, in which case, her fear has caused her to be disobdient, so she's the one who has sinned, not those around her, who may or may not be judgemental.

Boy, is that ever a run-on sentence! Forgive me. I hope it makes sense. It's not just about scarves... Obeying God is never going to be easy. In fact, it's like inviting trouble. When we were transitioning to the orthodox church, we were 'judged' by our friends and family. Besides being judged as heretics, we were also judged as being unfaithful and fickle, because we couldnt' stay. We were also judged as thinking ourselves too good to stay with them, because we'd found a better church, it must mean, they were bad, right? Where would we be, if it's more important to be understood and not misjudged? We'd still be protestants.... extremely miserable and bitter ones, because we'd be living in total disobedience.

So - when a woman wants to wear a scarf - she should count the cost. She should be aware of the fact that she is raising the standards against which she will be judged. For instance, if she has a habit of chattering in church, most people won't notice if she were also dressed in a mini skirt and a tank top... BUT, the minute she starts to wear a long dress with long sleeves and a scarf, it's like her chattering has become 10 times louder. But that's a good thing... if she doens't want to be humiliated, perhaps it'll motivate her to work harder at controlling her chattering.

All this to say - no - you do not have the luxury of being understood. When you submit to the scarf, you're also submitting to being judged as a hypocrite. BUT - there's a bright side to it all - your fear could be totally groundless and you may find yourself surrounded by people who do not think you're a hypocrite! You'll never know, till you obey.

BTW, Effie has said she's not judging anyone, and I think she's right. If she's not, she's answerable to God, not to me or you! We can't see into her heart and mind, how can we judge her motives? Our job is to keep our sharp judging minds turned inwards, onto ourselves, not onto others. And, as Scarfwearers, we're even more accountable. For all you know, Effie probably admires you for being willing to wear a scarf because she said that she herself is afraid to wear one because she'd feel like she's pretending!


“Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake. Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you." Matthew 5:11-12

Do you, really want to lose you reward in heaven, by forcing everyone to not speak falsely about you? And those of your fellow Scarf-wearers as well? Just for the record - no rewards for this round, because Effie has not been saying anything against us. Oops! Not my job to give or withhold rewards! Sorry Effie. You probably gained a few from this round =)

Please forgive me Xenia.

In Christ,

Mary.

[Xenia Rose]

So, I do understand your desire to defend the Scarfwearers and Wanna-be-Scarfwearers from being judged. BUT, this is a totally different dimension that we're dealing with. Do you think that telling people to not judge, will help them to not judge?

Yes I think it can be helpful. It can be very helpful when someone is saying "I am not judgeing you..." but clearly is saying that those who wear headcoverings are being hypocrits to point out to them the fact that the headscarf is an extra tool used by perhaps even weaker person then themselves.

This might not be something they even considered.

They also might not see that direcly implying we are hypocrites is being judgemental. I myself can not understand the lack of making this connection, but it is there just the same in Effies posts.

I agree with you that part of the burden of wearing a headscarf is that some people will falsely accuse us of being hypocrits. I am speaking out against that. If this accusation was made by someone outside the church I wouldn't have spoken up. But to have a sister of mine treat my fellow sisters this way leads me to desire to correct their misunderstanding.

And Mary, your liking me is also something I wish was more important to me. I am currently in a very dangerous situation. Someone wishes to kill me. I am facing the very real possiblity of my death... writing out my wishes if I were to be killed to give to family, getting my affairs in order.

I come on line to distract myself from this but I am still looking at things in a different way because of it. Some things matter more to me then others. This matters to me. It matters because I know too many woman who tell me they are too afraid to wear a headscarf but want to. It matters because of the helpfulness a headscarf has been for me and my spiritual growth.

If I have lost salvation because I spoke up. Then that is a price I will pay. I have no regrets so I am sure the price if any will be very steep.

[Mary]

And Mary, your liking me is also something I wish was more important to me. I am currently in a very dangerous situation. Someone wishes to kill me. I am facing the very real possiblity of my death... writing out my wishes if I were to be killed to give to family, getting my affairs in order.


Dear Xenia,

First thing I'd like to say is, in light of the possibility of death that you're living under, this conversation, is an extremely low priority! Right now, your family is far more important, and so is getting your affairs in order. I would either be dead already or insane if I lived with the threat of death like you!

Secondly, I'm glad you dont' care whether I like you or if Effie doesnt' like you. Truth is, I'm neutral here, I can neither like nor dislike because I do not know you. Effie hasn't said anything to indicate any animosity towards you either, so you don't know for a fact that she dislikes you... For all I know, You and Effie might be the SAME person, sent by God to test me and teach me! In responding to both of your posts, I have gained such a deep look at the depth of my own hypocricy! Thank you! You've both been such a great blessing to me, and how you've stretched me, tugging me in two different directions!

If I have lost salvation because I spoke up. Then that is a price I will pay. I have no regrets so I am sure the price if any will be very steep.

I know you didn't ask for my opinion, but I honestly dont' think this is worth losing your salvation over. Please, it's too high a price to pay for the freedom of wearing a piece of fabric on our heads without being judged. I could write pages and pages in response to each of the thoughts in your short post. But I have no right to speak, for I had a wonderful experience, first thing this morning, to drive in the fact that I am a great hypocrite! (Is it Jane Fonda, who encouraged everyone to 'feel the burn'? That's what I felt... and it wasn't in my muscles.)

So, here are the responses from the heart of a hypocrite - which I will try to keep short:



Yes I think it can be helpful. It can be very helpful when someone is saying "I am not judgeing you..." but clearly is saying that those who wear headcoverings are being hypocrits to point out to them the fact that the headscarf is an extra tool used by perhaps even weaker person then themselves.


Analogies are nice to get a point across, but they have many weaknesses because everyone experiences things differently so they'll understand analogies differently. I find it hard to see the headscarf as a 'tool', for in my experience, a tool is used to construct something on the outside, and it doesn't really change the person using it... except a little bit - the arm that weilds the hammer may gain strength, while the thumb on the opposite hand may appear to be changing in shape and color... =)

I see the scarf more as an exercise equipment that offers resistance, so that my strength builds up. The way I see it, it's not the scarf itself that helps me grow spiritually, but rather, the burdens attached to it. Take away the burdens, and I'm left with a piece of fabric, it's only use being to protect my head against the hot sun in the summer and to keep my ears warm in the winter.


It matters because I know too many woman who tell me they are too afraid to wear a headscarf but want to. It matters because of the helpfulness a headscarf has been for me and my spiritual growth.

About those women who are afraid to wear a headscarf, it is commendable that you want to make it easier for them to do so. BUT in my not so humble opinion, that's the same as asking that a 5lb handweight should be made lighter so more people could use it. If such a thing were done, it would only aid in creating more delusions. They need to start with the 1lb weight and work their way up to the 5lb weights or else they'll just injure themselves. The best way to help them, would be by preparing them to bear the judgements - pray with them and for them, encourage them, etc.

As we gain strength, the weights seem to get lighter, and soon they cease to offer resistance. If we want to get stronger still, we need to get heavier weights. Once we get over the judgments (real or perceived) - that come with wearing a scarf, God will show us the next set of weights - heavier than the scarf... of course, we have the choice to take it or be happy with what we've already achieved and exist in 'maintenance mode' (exercising just 3x a week, to maintain the weight loss that we've achieved... something like that http://mail.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/01.gif)


They also might not see that direcly implying we are hypocrites is being judgemental. I myself can not understand the lack of making this connection, but it is there just the same in Effies posts.


So what? So what if they're being judgemental? Aren't we being judgemental in analysing the things they say and coming to the conlcusion that they're being judgemental? Can we know their hearts? We can't even see our own hearts clearly if we're under the delusion that we're not being judgemental and hypocritical! And even if our conclusion is accurate, are we responsible to change them?



I agree with you that part of the burden of wearing a headscarf is that some people will falsely accuse us of being hypocrits. I am speaking out against that. If this accusation was made by someone outside the church I wouldn't have spoken up. But to have a sister of mine treat my fellow sisters this way leads me to desire to correct their misunderstanding.

Why do you have a double standard for those in the Church and those outside? Only God sees the heart, only He knows who is truly IN and who is not. Why do you burden yourself with the responsibility of correcting someone else's misunderstanding? How can you even know if it IS a misunderstanding? And, if it is indeed a misunderstanding, do you know for sure that you have the ability and wisdom and love and all other such nice things, that are required to correct it?

Also, I think there's a difference between trying to teach someone online and someone face to face. When we talk to each other online, there are so many deterents to a perfect communication - not everyone expresses themselves accurately in writing, body language and tone of voice speak volumes more than actual words and we can't see each other, and... it's entirely possible to absolutely love a person face to face and yet disagree with them about every single thing that matters to you. Online - you only have someone's opinions to interact with, and you can't see how loveable the person really is! So, your efforts to help Effie understand look very judgemental.

But, if you are sure that you are equipped, then by all means, go ahead and fix the misunderstandings. I would be sinning by trying to stop you from doing what God has called you to do.

See how hypocritical I am? I'm asking you to make sure that you are equipped to correct others, while I have taken the liberty to correct you! Please forgive me. May God have mercy on us all!

In Christ,

Mary.

[Xenia Rose]

What is or is not a priority to me is none of your business thank you.

I asked to be removed as a member because of your post Mary. I have been asked to remain here by staff. Their comments about my defending the faith has touched me very much.

What frustrates me is that I have to defend the faith with you. You and I are in agreement about headcoverings and yet I have to defend myself from you.

I speak out to defend the right of women to follow the ancient tradition of headcoverings and you attack me. I have no problem admitting that I judge those who falsely accuse us of hypocracy. My goal was to point this out to them... the falseness of it.

I would encourage all women who wear a headcovering to explain to those who do not understand and who ridicule us rather then just sit back and allow them to use peer pressure to end this long standing tradition of our faith.


See how hypocritical I am? I'm asking you to make sure that you are equipped to correct others, while I have taken the liberty to correct you! Please forgive me. May God have mercy on us all!


on us all? Mary why would you apologize for something you have not even fully done yet. To write an apology for a post that you have not even put up for view yet? If you think you need to apologize, maybe you should not post it.

I feel perfectly equipped to correct the misunderstandings of others about headcoverings. I only seek God's mercy because of my anger toward you for attacking me, not for helping someone better understand headcoverings.

Ironically, I was never angry with Effie. She was just misinformed. But being in the church, I would expect her to know and understand that this is a long standing, even ancient tradition. That is why I hold her to a higher standard.

Those outside the church don't have the knowledge (usually) of small "t" traditions of our faith.

[Mary]

What is or is not a priority to me is none of your business thank you.

I asked to be removed as a member because of your post Mary. I have been asked to remain here by staff. Their comments about my defending the faith has touched me very much.

You're right Xenia.

I'm glad you're staying.


In Christ,

Mary.

[Florianos]

God bless!!

I think it is very important that women cover their hair during prayer and in church!!
because:

It is an ancient, apostolic tradition( mentioned in Scripture,apostolic constitutions) also Jewish women cover theire hair( I think the muslim tradition of haircovering also comes from that christian tradition like others!!

on icons woman allways(some eceptions) have haircoverings

every christian woman should follow her Mother and Lady the Theotokos
who allways had covered hair

it is a very old symbol , perhaps we do not understand the exact meaning of the haircovering but the symbol is still speaking!!

It is sad that in some orthodox churches the woman do not cover theire hair any more!!


In CHRIST