The dress of women in Church - a letter from Russia

[Andreas Moran]

Dear All,

Last Wednesday, my wife and I and her brother and their father went on a trip to Pereslavl, an ancient Russian town about 200 kms north-east of Moscow. Before the Revolution, there were 17 monasteries in this small town. Today, 9 have re-opened and are active again. One of them, the Monastery of St Nicholas, has had its cathedral church re-built from scratch since it had been virtually demolished by the Soviets. I have never see such a beautiful new church. There was a tremendous sense of the Church arising from the ashes and prevailing against the gates of hell.

Another monastery we visited was that of St Nikita, a local saint. In the porch, one is confronted by a large notice which my wife translated for me. It read like this: Women! Those of you who wear trousers, who colour your hair and wear any makeup are daughters of the devil! You cannot escape hell! Any women who do these things may not receive Communion; if any such fall ill, they may not ask a priest for unction; any such who die shall not receive Christian burial!

This notice quoted authority - canons, etc.

My wife was wearing loose black trousers under a long overcoat which reached below her knees (it is the Russian winter, after all). As we approached the church, two monks saw her. They muttered and looked at her. I then appeared. (I was wearing all black and have a beard, so they may have thought I was a priest.) When they saw me, they backed off.

My wife normally does wear a skirt in church, but we were out on a trip. Proper order in church is one thing, but where is the love of Christ in such an approach? They could have said, please respect the rules of our monastery by wearing a skirt over trousers. Does anyone have a view about these Orthodox Taleban?

In Christ,

Andreas.

[Peter Farrington]

As you say, such an attitude is a variant of that of the Taleban.

I think it is a category of human psychology that can manifest itself in individuals and groups, and so it is not a surprise that it can be found in most Christian groups as well.

But I don't sense that it is Christian at all. There are ways and means and there is no love in this approach. Anyone can find canons to justify almost any condemnation of others - this does not mean the canons are worthless - rather that they should be applied in context by a suitable authority, one whose heart is filled with love of God and love of others.

Peter

[John Charmley]

Dear Andreas,

A distressing encounter, and what a good thing you were there.

Peter is right, all faiths seem to attract such folk to them, and one of their characteristics is that they seem to take their faith as an excuse for exercising their own problems with control. Our Lord knew such people well, and the whole of Matthew 23 is on this theme - especially relevant in this instance is Matthew 23:23:

23 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone.

Mark 2:27 ought to be written up on the walls of such communities:

27 And He said to them, The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath.

My own favourite saying of Our Lord on this theme is from Mark 7:5-7:

5 Then the Pharisees and scribes asked Him, Why do Your disciples not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashed hands?
6 He answered and said to them, Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written: `This people honors Me with their lips, But their heart is far from Me.
7 And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.'


I have always assumed that Christians who manifest the attitude you are describing somehow fail to read what the founder of our Church had to say on such matters. There are dozens of examples in the Scriptures of Our Lord rebuking such formalism - and examples such as the one you cite Andreas simply help remind us of why we need to walk in the way of the Lord.

I hope it did not spoil what has clearly been a very fruitful and moving visit.


In Christ,

John

[Father David Moser]

I am impressed by how we are all so quick to judge and condemn those who stand for the traditions of the Church as "taliban" and argue that they are somehow ignorant, rude and merciless.

I must admit that the approach of these monastics is not consistent with the approach I would take, but then I suspect that they would be similarly uncomfortable with my approach.

Remember, this occured in Russia, in a monastery and as such cannot be understood in the context of the western, heterodox, human rights consumed, politeness obsessed world. Their approach may have been offensive to you or I, however, it may be exactly what is needed in that place for the people who are there. It is left to God to judge, not us.

Fr David Moser

[Peter Farrington]

Dear Father

Are you saying that it is the case that a woman who wears trousers or a little make up is going to hell?

The sign didn't say 'We would rather you dressed appropriately for our Church', it said 'You are going to hell!'. It said 'You cannot escape hell!'

That is surely not true. This is not a matter of different phraseology but of a different attitude completely.

Should we not be welcoming to all people who come to Church? Even if we have to help them dress as we would wish? What if the only clothes a woman has that are not thread bare were a pair of trousers? Should we condemn her to hell if she comes to pray?

Peter

[Rebecca Gabl]

People still would get the message if it were worded more nicely. And less judgmental wording would, in turn, make the readers of the sign less tempted to judge the monks for their "reminder".
I'd think anyone who wouldn't respect a friendly reminder probably wouldn't be receptive to threats of hellfire either.

[John Charmley]

Dear Peter,

I am tempted to agree, although as far as my own post was concerned the insights were not from a western point of view, or from a modern one.

As a child I was always told that politeness cost nothing - but that is perhaps a western point of view?

In Christ,

John

[Father David Moser]

Peter asked:

Are you saying that it is the case that a woman who wears trousers or a little make up is going to hell?


Not at all - I am saying that in this case such strong language may be necessary. Sometimes you have to hit the mule on the head with a 2x4 just to get his attention before you can teach him anything. We are attempting to judge a situation that we know nothing about.

Rebecca asserted:

People still would get the message if it were worded more nicely.

Not necessarily. For example, as a pastor of a "mixed' parish, I have to talk very differently to the American converts than I do to the Russian immigrants. If I spoke to Americans the way I speak to Russians sometimes, the Americans would get all upset and insulted and they would never listen or learn anything. OTOH, if I spoke to the Russians the way I do to Americans, they would never even hear what I am trying to say to them. Be very careful of assuming that your cultural norms will apply universally.

John recalls:

As a child I was always told that politeness cost nothing - but that is perhaps a western point of view?

What is polite in one culture may be considered rude and crude in another and vice versa. In some cultures it is considered polite to belch after a meal to indicate your pleasure with the quality and quantity of the fare - otoh if I had tried that growing up, I would have been severly punished. I grew up learning that one must clean up everything on one's plate - that it was rude to leave any food behind. OTOH, in other cultures if you eat all the food that is just a signal to the host that your portion was inadequate and that they should give you more and they they have insulted you.

All I'm saying here is that we cannot impose our own cultural ideas of what is effective and "polite" on others. There is no shortage of accounts in the lives of the spirit bearing fathers and mothers of Church where they were exceedingly rude and insulting in their behavior in order to teach a soul saving spiritual lesson. Should we then judge them for not conforming to our ideas of what is polite?

Fr David Moser

[Rebecca Gabl]

Well, then, I guess it's the way Russians take it that counts, if they're not much for subtlety...

[Father Serafim]

I don't think we can predict who is going to Hell, but I think we can guess that certain behaviour is likely to end in separation from God. I think the sign threatening women etc was uncalled for and maybe the other fathers were being over zealous. However I agree with Father David that we should respect Holy Tradition. It might be the practice for women to wear trousers, makeup etc in their parish, but when visting other parishes or monasteries, surely we should be mindful of others? And being 'attacked' is good for us! Coming from western culture to the East, requires a degree of humility. In our parish we are lenient to visitors, kindly explaining after the service that we do this or that. I am pleasantly surprised when correcting someone lovingly, they say: Why didn't you tell me this? I remember once being shouted at by an Athonite monk at the Great Lavra. I got angry and shouted back which brought peals of laughter from the Greek pilgrims. The monk also softened his atttitude after this. Perhaps you should have shouted at them!

[Andreas Moran]

Dear All,

I am grateful for the posts you have made. Father David, you made a measured and thoughtful reply. I must admit that I could not dismiss what the notice said - rather the way it was worded. My wife was upset and her brother and father offended, and they are, after all, Russians with no element of western character (my father-in-law is a colonel and spent his life as a loyal Soviet citizen). It seemed as though one could be an enemy of the Church just as, not so long ago, one could be an enemy of the people. The alternative approach I indicated was, in fact, taken from the notice in the porch of the church in the Monastery of St Nicholas - the beautiful new church I mentioned.

One of the Lavra fathers told us this story. Not long ago, a young woman visited Danilov monastery in Moscow. She was wearing trousers under a long coat. This monastery employs Cossack guards. When these guards saw this young woman about to enter, they hurled numerous insults at her. In distress, she went away and became a Roman Catholic. The Lavra father said, who had the greater sin - the young woman, or the guards who drove her away from the true Church?

Father David, I take your point about different cultures, but, as I have said, I was with Russians, albeit Muscovites. Does not the love of Christ transcend cultures? My wife and her family are no longer upset by this - it just seemed to them to point up an aspect of the Russian character which they themselves do not like.

In Christ,

Andreas.

[Father David Moser]

Father David, I take your point about different cultures, but, as I have said, I was with Russians, albeit Muscovites. Does not the love of Christ transcend cultures? My wife and her family are no longer upset by this - it just seemed to them to point up an aspect of the Russian character which they themselves do not like.

Just like almost everyone else in this conversation (except you), I wasn't there, so I don't know the context. I will say that I have found that the "new Russians" - that is the soviet era generations - to require at times very strong words just to get the message across. Perhaps these monks at this monastery are acting in accordance with their general experience. I don't know - but I am concerned with how quickly we all jump on the bandwagon of judgement.

Fr David Moser

[John Charmley]

All I'm saying here is that we cannot impose our own cultural ideas of what is effective and "polite" on others. There is no shortage of accounts in the lives of the spirit bearing fathers and mothers of Church where they were exceedingly rude and insulting in their behavior in order to teach a soul saving spiritual lesson. Should we then judge them for not conforming to our ideas of what is polite?

Fr David Moser


Dear Fr. David,

I suspect this dialogue has a limited life-span, but I'd be really interested in any 'cultural idea' that read this

Women! Those of you who wear trousers, who colour your hair and wear any makeup are daughters of the devil! You cannot escape hell! Any women who do these things may not receive Communion; if any such fall ill, they may not ask a priest for unction; any such who die shall not receive Christian burial!

as in any sense 'polite'. Denying Christian burial to women who wear trousers is, as Andreas' last post makes clear, as alien to most Russians as it is to most of us. We need to be careful with the sort of cutlural relativism manifested in the above quotation - I have never seen it used except to defend some abuse - usually of women.

Some things ought not to be defended, even if they are deeply embedded in a culture. What the Taleban did to women was defended on the ground it was 'their' culture; the Saudis use it to defend their attitude to women; and I have even heard scholars use it to defend the old Hindu practice of suttee - we 'westerners' apparently fail to understand the desire of Indian widows to be burnt alive on their husband's funeral pyre. Simply to say 'that is their culture' isn't enough - especially when as the reaction of Andreas' Russian relations shows, it was offensive to them too.

Our Lord had a great deal to say on those who put this sort of formalism before the command to love each other - and I am with the tradition going back to what He said in Matthew 22:37-40:

36 Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said to him, `You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.'
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like it: `You shall love your neighbor as yourself.'
40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.

If the 'tradition' of the monks makes them write what they have written, they need to ponder what Our Lord says in Matthew 15:6:

' Thus you have made the commandment of God of no effect by your tradition.


In Christ,

John



In Christ,

John

[Andreas Moran]

Dear All,

Just a quick message. Got back from Russia last night, thanks God. Whilst staying at the Lavra last week, we mentioned this to the Fathers there. They were horrified, and took details with a view to having something done about it. It is useful to know that recently, the hegumen at the Lavra has been increasing the strictness of the life of the brethren there. But any idea that women wearing trousers, etc, are excommunicated and outside the Church is outrageous, they said.

In Christ,

Andreas.

[Fr Seraphim (Black)]

Dear Brother in Christ, Andreas,

We give thanks that you and your wife have safely returned from Russia.

I have not been to Russia, though God-willing I do hope to go one day to visit the holy places.

My only similiar experience with a certain 'rigour' is that seen in Romania, especially in the Neamts region, and Bukovina, which extends into the Ukraine.

This is a very beautiful and blessed area, with the highest number of monks and nuns per capita of any religion in the entire world.

At first, I readily admit that I found some of the local traditions quite strict.

For instance, regarding Holy Communion, Romanian monastics partake of the Holy Gifts at the most, every forty days. On the Holy Mountain it is at least four times per week, as it is (as you know) at the Monastery of St. John the Baptist.

I remember once staying with a family in a rural village when I had just arrived in Romania - it was Sunday and I had in mind to have a quick shower before going to Church. My request (which would be normal on Mt. Athos and Essex) was greeted with some amazement, for in Romania, they consider a shower 'work' and therefore refrain from working on Sundays.

I was also aghast to see lay women and nuns kneeling at the back of the Church because it was their time of the month. Yet later on when I learned Romanian I asked both lay women and nuns about this, and they found it quite correct.

I think we should try to approach various traditions in the Old World and here in North America with a proper pastoral concern. That which we seek is the salvation of humankind, this is our prayer as the Royal Priesthood.

It should not be seen as abasement of women, for the traditions regarding men are also of no little concern.

I ask everyones forgiveness for mentioning these matters, but I feel it is best to 'lay our cards on the table.'

If a man has had a nocturnal emission he cannot have Communion. The epitima for masturbation is severe. Also intimate relations between man and wife are to be understood with the blessing of the Parish Priest.

Another simple and perhaps obvious matter is fasting. In Romania this is taken very seriously as it is on the Holy Mountain. Unless one is ill, pregnant or has the blessing for whatever reason, the normal typicon is that absolutely nothing passes into the throat after midnight before the Holy Liturgy.

Also it is understood that one must attend Vespers if one is desirous of receiving Holy Communion on Sunday. My experience (limited) here in Canada, indicates that this is widly abused. Five or six show up for Vespers, but everyone takes Holy Communion on Sunday. And this is not to mention Confession.

Finally I want to close with some words of St. Silouan: 'Concerning Spiritual Warfare'

"Our battle rages every day, every hour.

"If you have upbraided, or passed judgement on, or vexed your brother, your peace is lost. If you have been boastful, or have exalted yourself above your fellow, you have lost grace. If you did not drive away forthwith the wanton thought that came to you, your soul will lose love for God and boldness in prayer. If you are fond of power, or money, you will never know the love of God. If you have followed your own will, then you are vanquished by the enemy and despondency will come upon your soul. If you detest your brother, it means that you have fallen away from God, and an evil spirit has taken possesion of you." pg. 423

Fr. Sophrony writes of his Spiritual Father: "The Staretz' message is a gentle, often affectionate one, healing the soul, but to heed it requires great and ardent resolution - to the point of self-hatred. (Luke 14:26)

Certainly while the Bridegroom was with his disciples, such texts as Mark 7: 5-7 are very valid, but our Lord did say that when the Bridegroom is no longer with them, then he used such expressions as: 'the Kingdom of Heaven suffers violence, and the violent take it by forth' and 'this kind goes out by prayer and fasting' and 'better that you be hot or cold than lukewarm'.

And the essential text for St. Silouan and Fr. Sophrony as the passage to prayer for humankind and unceasing tears, is Luke 14:26.

And the great command of our Lord to Saint Silouan:

'Keep thy mind in hell, and despair not.'

[John Charmley]

Dear Andreas,

Good to have you back. You'll see this topic has spilled over into 'Head Coverings', which is at least logical.

I am glad to hear that our opinions were not just those of westerners unaccustomed to rough Russians ways - that always struck me as more likely to be cultural relativism.

I remain struck by the similarity between some of the more censorious comments and those made by the Pharisees about the company Our Lord kept, cf. Matthew 9:11-13, Matthew 9:19 Mark 2:16-17; Luke 5:30-32, Luke 7:34, among many others.

Would He have cause to say the same things now? We can hardly complain at finding sick people in a spiritual hospital - can we?

It seems necessary to draw a distinction between what is seemly and proper in the House of the Lord, and indeed, what is seemly and proper in itself, and the sort of notice you describe. Apart from other consideration, it seems as though those monks are presuming to know who will and who will not be saved; there is only One who knows that - and He has told us how we might aspire to that state - part of that is to walk in His ways.

Still, as as been said here, we must not rush to judgement, and my comments were not meant to do that (who am I that I should judge, who stands, himself, in fear and trembling of the final judgement?) - they were simply an expression of the confusion caused by the contrast between His words and those on the sign.

I hope the whole experience has left you will some strength to tackle the new term!

In Christ,

John

[Nina]

Greetings,

Of course we all know from the New Testament about the fact that women should have long hair and not wear pants .

Additionally, if you read St. Theodora's Journey Through the Aerial Toll-Houses, you will see that she was judged by demons about makeup etc. However the mercy of God, the good deeds and the prayers of her spiritual father saved her.

From a secular point of view I have read many times that hair coloring causes cancer, different makeup products contain lead and many other harmful ingredients.

I do not blame the monks who have to be strict, they are just trying to save our poor souls and maybe our physical health, in addition of avoiding temptations in their own home. On the other hand I have been in such situations myself and I would say that my ego was so hurt and I was sad when I was criticized - so I know that this can be a real trial for egos. However, later I realized that this might also be a chance that God gives us females to correct our mistakes and to develop spiritually by obeying. Of course I wear makeup and pants in general, but if I visit monasteries I try to be very considerate of the rules of the monks and the community they have built. It is their space and I should obey and respect that if I wish to visit there.

[Owen Jones]

I wish my parish were far more rigorous, particularly with respect to women's appearance in Church. In fact, even just a little bit of rigor would be nice!!! But how it is done, and the tone of it I think is equally important.

On a recent visit to a Greek Orthodox cathedral, the printed notice in the bulletin regarding the pre-requisites for communion were very rigorous. But I somehow suspect that it was not practiced much, if at all. But I have been so extremely unrigorous myself....I want a very rigorous church to overcome my laziness, rather than discipline myself....

On the other hand, I acknowledge me weakness and recognize the need and desire to be part of a community that practices discipline. On the other hand, when it goes to pharisaical extremes....So what is a man to do?

These days, I just try to accept....not change anyone.

[Robert Hegwood]

This is one of those areas of traditional practice that puzzle me a little.

The idea of headcoverings fro women and even staying towards the back of the temple during their time makes a certian amount of sense to me...but trousers as forbidden articles of clothing has never made sense to me. Modest covering makes sense...but if the argument is modesty then all women should be in skirts and all men in cassocks. But the argument that pants are only a men's garment doesn't seem correct to me. There was a time in western society where it was essentially correct, but that time has long passed, and it was never true in eastern cultures, and today it is generally easy to tell men from women's garments. Where there is confusion then I could see a point of question.

Of course even in tradtional eastern cultures I note that in most cases regarless of sex the overgarment was generally longish...like a nightshirt or frock coat, so that the pants only showed as pants from the knees down.

[Rebecca Gabl]

I heard that St. John of Shanghai allowed his Chinese women parishioners to wear trousers because it was part of their culture's traditional feminine dress (and, as Seraphim said, they were probably very modest and worn with a long tunic).

[Andreas Moran]

Dear All,

As to custom in Russia, it is a requirement to attend the evening service and to make confession before receiving Holy Communion the next day. Women wear headscarves and skirts, though I have seen the odd female visitor (non-parishioner, coming in to light a candle) in trousers who was not chased out!
Many women do not enter the church at all at their time of the month. Men go first for everything.

As to a certain canon about women not wearing trousers, I have a vague recollection that whichever canon it was was made to counter what at the time was a fashion for transvestisism and thus had a specific aim. Perhaps someone can enlarge on that.

In Christ,

Andreas.

[Marinaki]

I'm half-Cypriot and half-Scottish.

That means that my Scottish Grandfathers wore kilts -i.e. essentially - skirts and my Cypriot grandmothers pantaloons essentially baggy trousers!

I don't think either was condemned by canons.

[Before this gets ad hominem and people make baseless assumptions - for the record. I wear skirts in Church and most of the time, 1) because of personal preference 2) because some people cannot concentrate on prayer in Church and spend more time looking at what others are wearing; I wouldn't want to scandalise them! I believe there are more important things to do in Church than criticise the dress of others or make them feel awkward because of it.

Although, sometimes the criticisms might have the appearance of validity. As when an older woman visited our parish at Easter with a super high mini (because it was the only skirt she had and she was told to wear a skirt) and the teenagers behind her (boys and girls) remarked that she would have been better off in trousers. Works both ways - I suppose! ]

[Cyprian (Humphrey)]

Try telling a Scot that he's immoral because he wears a kilt! Having been a soldier in a Highland regiment who's both worn one, and been around a lot of guys who put a lot of stake in their uniform, I think that'd be a dangerous proposition! :) But it is the logical reverse, and therefore equivalent argument, to saying women are immoral for wearing trousers.

It seems to me to be a bit of confusion between a.) cultural norms, which vary from culture to culture, and b.) gospel commandments and moral imperatives which are unchanging throughout the world and through all time. When I was a young man (not long after the flood apparently! ha!) I encountered some Old Colony Mennonites (similar to Amish for those who are not aware) who were evangelizing and similarly trying to convince everyone that would listen, that women wearing trousers was incredibly immoral based on some Old Testament texts. Of course, the texts they used actually had more to do with "cross-dressing" and similar perversity. The scriptural passages had more to do with condemning sexual perversion, since that inevitably leads to a de-humanization of the person and eventually death of the soul, than with determining global clothing norms.

Judgement is not a good attitude for people to take in any case.

That's just my input which can be readily disregarded, as I'm not that thoughtful and I probably shouldn't be weighing in. Forgive me.

the unworthy,

Fr Cyprian

[John Charmley]

Dear Andreas,

Thank you for this information. Surely Mr. Jones is correct; it was the manner of what was being said to which I took objection; no one, not even a monk, can tell anyone they are going to Hell. And I do seriously worry about the state of mind of anyone who thinks that will happen to a woman wearing trousers.

Of course people should be respectful to the customs and practices of others - but really, a little common sense is sometimes all it takes; it is no wonder some non-Christians think we are a bunch of fussy hypocrites with minds so narrow that no light, created or uncreated can enter.

We are all children of the one God, so let us treat one another as such. (And try to be less dysfunctional as a family whilst we are at it?)


In Christ,

John

[Andreas Moran]

Dear John,

Just so. As I have said before, the Russians could relax a bit about a few things, and the Greeks tighten up on quite a few!

In Christ,

Andreas.