Blasphemy against the Spirit, unforgiven in this world 'or the next'

[Andreas Moran]

Dear All,

With fear and trembling I enter the theology section! Forgive me if this point has been dealt with before but my question is this. Our Lord says that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is a sin which cannot be forgiven in this world or the next. What did He mean, 'or in the next' - can sins be forgiven in the next world (meaning, presumably, after death)?

In Christ,

Andreas.

[Peter Farrington]

Dear Andreas

Sitting at work I am not in a position to do any digging in sources, but I would be interested to learn if this phraseology was a Jewish one and related to theological ideas about judgement current at the time.

Peter

[Father David Moser]

Our Lord says that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is a sin which cannot be forgiven in this world or the next. What did He mean, 'or in the next' - can sins be forgiven in the next world (meaning, presumably, after death)?

Of course they can, otherwise the Church is praying for something impossible when, in the funeral and in the memorial services (pannykhida, trisagion for the dead) we pray that our Lord forgive the sins of the departed. In the great litany for the funeral and pannykhida we pray first for the repose, tranqulity and blessed memory of the reposed and the next litany is for the forgiveness of their sins voluntary or involuntary. This is just about all we know about the forgiveness of sins in the next life - not "why" or "how" but simply that it does occur and that we should pray for those who have died that their sins might be forgiven.

Fr David Moser

[Rick H.]

Dear Peter and Andreas,

Please forgive me for intruding on your conversation here, at this early juncture, but I must confess that I am swept away/fascinated by your question (possible hermeneutics) Peter. And, I am curious enough to write and ask why it would be interesting to you if Christ was in fact using an Hebraic expression (as it may have related to a modern/pre-modern theological approach) "that was current at the time?"

Thanks ahead of time for your answer. I'll get back to the A.O. thread where I belong now ;)

Peace (but not at any price),
Rick

[Peter Farrington]

Hi Rick

I am reading on and off a great book called 'The Seventy Faces of Torah', which is a Jewish book about the Torah, what it means how it is read etc etc.

I have found it very illuminating on several occasions where Christ can be seen to be using Jewish idiom and Jewish thought. "Where two or three are gathered.." was one passage that was given new meaning for me by understanding that it fitted in to Jewish thought.

I guess that I like to read things in context where and when I can. I like history for that reason. It is very easy for us, rather like some of the Protestant groups I grew up in, to have a rather Pol Pot approach to our faith and act as though it all began anew in 30 AD or whenever, rather than it being rooted in God's loving activity over the millenia before He became incarnate for our salvation. I think that there is also sometimes a tendency to practically deny that Christ was incarnate as a Jewish man and almost to erase that aspect of the incarnation. Christ becomes an Englishman, or a Russian or Greek sometimes.

The particularity of the incarnation, that God became a man in Jewish society, seems important to me, and gives hope that He also values our own particular cultures and wishes them to be transformed by His presence through and in us.

Peter

[Rick H.]

Very good Peter--I share your hope! Thanks again very much.

[Andreas Moran]

Dear All,

Thank you for your messages. I was aware that Orthodox Tradition believed that the situation of the departed could be ameliorated by the prayers of the living but unaware that sins could actually be forgiven. There are stories in Russia of elders knowing that departed who are not in the best of circumstances are comforted temporarily by portions of bread for them in the Proskomidi. However, it seems Father Sophrony prayed out of hell his sister who commited suicide. But presumably, the safest course is to make full confession before going on. Terminal illnesses can be such a blessing because one has time to prepare.

In Christ,

Andreas.

[John Charmley]

Dear Peter,

The following from the Stromata of Celment of Alexandria (Book 6, chapter 6) seems germane to this theme:

Do not [the Scriptures] show that. the Lord preached the
Gospel to those that perished in the flood, or rather had been chained, and
to those kept “in ward and guard”? And it has been shown also, in the
second book of the Stromata, that the apostles, following the Lord,
preached the Gospel to those in Hades. For it was requisite, in my
opinion, that as here, so also there, the best of the disciples should be
imitators of the Master; so that He should bring to repentance those
belonging to the Hebrews, and they the Gentiles; that is, those who had
lived in righteousness according to the Law and Philosophy, who had
ended life not perfectly, but sinfully. For it was suitable to the divine
administration, that those possessed of greater worth in righteousness, and
whose life had been pre-eminent, on repenting of their transgressions,
though found in another place, yet being confessedly of the number of the
people of God Almighty, should be saved, each one according to his
individual knowledge.

So this reinforces what Fr. David says.

In Christ,

John

[Fr Seraphim (Black)]

Further to Andreas referencing Fr. Sophrony, but this time regarding our call to being perfect as the Father. Fr. Sophrony said to me and I am certain to the others as well, that even in Heaven/Eternity there is no limit to repentance. Thus paraphrasing Fr. Sophrony we never exhaust the potential of repentance, repentance is never complete(d) as we would understand that word in linear, earthly terminology.

And repentance entails confession of transgression/sin.

From Fr. Sophrony:

"If, as we confess in the Creed, Christ is very God, the Saviour of the universe, the Creator of the world, 'by whom all things were made', how can we bring our understanding of Him down to a question of nationality, place, epoch...?

"I do not know a Greek Christ, a Russian Christ, an English Christ, an Arab Christ...Christ, for me, is everything, the supra-cosmic Being.

"In the Scriptures, it is often said that Christ died for the whole world, for the sins of the whole world. When we limit the person of Christ, when we bring Him down to the level of nationalities, we immediately lose everything and fall into darkness. Then the way is open for hatred between nations, for hostility between social groups...

"Someone who loves Christ, who assimilates and bears within himself the 'feelings that were in Jesus Christ', lives the world as one Adam, prays for the whole Adam. That is what true Christianity is.

"'Love thy neighbour as thyself'. It was given to me to understand this commandment in the form of a gigantic tree, of cosmic dimensions, whose root is Adam. Myself, I am only a little leaf on a branch of this tree. But this tree is not foreign to me; it is the basis of my being. I belong to it. To pray for the whole world is to pray for this tree in its totality, with its milliards of leaves.

"To follow Christ means to open oneself to the same consciousness as Christ, who bears in Himself the whole of humanity, the totality of the tree, without excluding a single leaf. If we acquire this consciousness, we will pray for all as for ourselves.

[Nicolaj]

How beautiful! Thank you very much Father!

[Sean M.]

Of course they can, otherwise the Church is praying for something impossible when, in the funeral and in the memorial services (pannykhida, trisagion for the dead) we pray that our Lord forgive the sins of the departed. In the great litany for the funeral and pannykhida we pray first for the repose, tranqulity and blessed memory of the reposed and the next litany is for the forgiveness of their sins voluntary or involuntary. This is just about all we know about the forgiveness of sins in the next life - not "why" or "how" but simply that it does occur and that we should pray for those who have died that their sins might be forgiven.

Fr David Moser

Are you saying that the departed are in a place other than heaven or hell when we pray for them. Otherwise what would be the point of praying for someone who is already in heaven?

[Father David Moser]

Are you saying that the departed are in a place other than heaven or hell when we pray for them. Otherwise what would be the point of praying for someone who is already in heaven?

Yes. We know that the Great Judgement has not yet happened and thus no one is yet consigned to the place of their final fate. There are indeed "intermediate" places" which are often referred to by the Fathers as "hades" or "paradise" which are not heaven and hell, but perhaps carry some foretaste of the same. How that all works out is revealed to us only in vague images that give us a little insight into the fact that this life does have an impact on the life to come and that our prayers and alms for those who have departed before us are also beneficial to their state.

Fr David Moser

[Sean M.]

Yes. We know that the Great Judgement has not yet happened and thus no one is yet consigned to the place of their final fate. There are indeed "intermediate" places" which are often referred to by the Fathers as "hades" or "paradise" which are not heaven and hell, but perhaps carry some foretaste of the same. How that all works out is revealed to us only in vague images that give us a little insight into the fact that this life does have an impact on the life to come and that our prayers and alms for those who have departed before us are also beneficial to their state.

Fr David Moser

Do you mean by, "No one is consigned to the place of their final fate," because there is a new heaven and a new earth after the final judgement?

Orthodox beliefs seems to have a lot of similarites with the Catholic doctrine of purgatory.

[Kris]

Orthodox beliefs seems to have a lot of similarites with the Catholic doctrine of purgatory.

The main difference is, of course, that although Orthodoxy allows for belief in an intermediate state wherein the person receives a foretaste of what they will experience in Heaven or Hell after the final judgement, it rejects the Catholic notion of a place of purging.