Spiritual IQ test

[Owen Jones]

I want to invite members to think about and contribute questions for a spiritual IQ test. The idea would be not to ask dogmatic questions, but questions that require a response from the soul that would not require prior knowledge in the form of theological "information" so to speak, but what is your soul telling you.

For example:

Question: Is it better to be a victim of an injustice, or to commit an injustice?

Hopefully we can come up with 25 good questions.

[Robert Hegwood]

Ok...I'll be the wet blanket. First, what is the point of a spiritual IQ test? Is the result supposed to be helpful in some way or to "entertain and enlighten"?

Second, judging from the example it looks like you want a set of situational ethics questions.

Third, would not one have to presume some measure of genuine spirituality to actually suggest a "good" question? That leaves me out....spriitual is something I can spell on a good day...."being" spiritual in any way that matters...much less waxing didactic about it is beyond me at present.

Now I can churn out a ton of "gotcha" and "hmmm" questions...like make a list of the five best and five worst people in the past 200 years. Add yourself to the list. Which one on the list most deverves to go to hell? Assume any answer besides yourself is wrong. Give the reason why in 500 words or less. Five points will be deducted for any gratuitous use of platitudes.

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

I want to invite members to think about and contribute questions for a spiritual IQ test. The idea would be not to ask dogmatic questions, but questions that require a response from the soul that would not require prior knowledge in the form of theological "information" so to speak, but what is your soul telling you.

For example:

Question: Is it better to be a victim of an injustice, or to commit an injustice?

Hopefully we can come up with 25 good questions.


Sorry I'm leaving this open ended, but perhaps we could work the statement "keep your mind in hell and despair not" into a question.

Something along the lines of:

What is your reaction to the statement "keep your mind in hell and despair not"?

Or:

Does the statement "keep your mind in hell and despair not" offend your sense of the role which self-esteem should play in your life?

Well, as I say, maybe this is something we could work with.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[John Charmley]

Well, if I can dry the wet blanket, or at least make an attempt to contribute to this thread, I would like to offer not something of my own devising, but rather a saying from St. Isaac of Nineveh:

'Sin is the fruit of free will' - is it?

In Christ,

John

[Rick H.]

Very interesting Owen. Here's one that comes to mind (with a little help from Bishop Ware):


1.) Can the pondering of a Christian koan bring a self-noughting that one may be filled with an all-embracing sense of the divine indwelling?


Shalom-Shalom,

Rick

[Tanya Hoadley]

I sincerely hope not to offend, but I am in agreement with Robert on this.

Is everything and anything to be subject to measuring by yardsticks of our own design?

In Christ,
Tanya

[Owen Jones]

Rick,

Can we come up with a simpler version of that?

[Owen Jones]

Is it better to be a) poor or b) rich?

[Rick H.]

Rick,

Can we come up with a simpler version of that?

Owen, I am not usually known for my brevity :) but I am more than happy to try again:


Can a Christian koan be a vehicle of Grace?

[Owen Jones]

My little idea here is to have a non-dogmatic test. So, how about something like:

Is it better to a) understand everything or b) admit we don't?

The Ware point is that we experience God's indwelling when we become humble and admit that our mind is a pale imitation of God's mind.

[Owen Jones]

Fr. V,

So what do you see as the primary spiritual import of the axiom you cited?

Let's address that question, and then try to reformulate into a simple question that doesn't have the word "hell" in it.

[Owen Jones]

Koan, of course, is a trendy term used by new age enthusiasts. But most people don't know what it means. Paradox is perhaps our "Western" equivalent. But instead of asking a question about paradoxes, how about posing a paradox and offering an a) or b) answer? Ware is of course trying to point out that theology is not a bunch of information lying around waiting to be picked up, but involves the periagogue of the mind and heart. And that typically happens when our conventions are overturned and we are forced to look at ourselves and things differently. And when we are confronted with a paradox that cannot be resolved other than through faith and deep humility. So the purpose of a spiritual IQ test would be a true test of the spirit -- not to test the knowledge of information, but to interject into the consciousness the opportunity for conversion. When I place my head on the pillow at night, and inventory my attitudes and feelings and actions for the day, have I been a perpetrator of injustice? Do I have resentments as a victim of injustice? Is there another path? If I am asked the question, is it better to be a victim or a perpetrator, how does that change me? Call it dynamic catechesis?

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Fr. V,

So what do you see as the primary spiritual import of the axiom you cited?

Let's address that question, and then try to reformulate into a simple question that doesn't have the word "hell" in it.



The spiritual focus of what St Silouan was told, I think, relates to sin and evil & how this is redeemed.

A question from this could be:


Is the evil which surrounds us something we must escape from at all costs?


Just a few ideas but I'm open to someone else formulating the question.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Rick H.]

Owen--It is probably me for sure . . . or maybe both :) but, I am fully persuaded that one of us needs a vacation :) as I consider the old Quaker saying: "Sometimes me thinks the whole world is crazy except for me and thee, and sometimes I suspect even thee!"

But, I wonder if the word usage of 'dogma/dogmatic' is what you want as it relates to assertions/beliefs more than it does questions. I do see value to what you are considering but I am wondering about your word usage/definition?

Rick the Glutton (for Punishment)

PS Do you like to go fishing? :)

[Owen Jones]

The only point in asking non dogmatically loaded questions is in order to avoid prejudicing the answer. Many of us would otherwise answer in the dogmatically "correct" way without paying attention to the question. Without the possibility of any change taking place. Example: "Do you believe in the Holy Trinity?" Yes, of course! OK, so what?

[Owen Jones]

The obvious answer to Fr. V's excellent question is, of course, no. But perhaps a bit too obvious for some, and inexplicable to others. So, yes, perhaps there is a better way of posing the question to really confront the issue.

[Owen Jones]

How about:



Is it better to a) fight evil or b) suffer from evil?

[Owen Jones]

Is it better to a) punish another person for something he did not do or b) be punished by others for something you did not do? (variation on a theme)

[Owen Jones]

If you are extremely ill is it better to a) fight to stay alive or b) prepare for your death? (note: "prepare" could mean a lot of different things to different people.)

[Owen Jones]

Is it better to be a) poor or b) rich? (or have we asked that question already?)

[Antonios]

Is it better to learn painful truth, or avoid it?

[Rick H.]

This reminds me of a carnival game booth I once gave all my money to when I was a kid--that little stuffed monkey I finally won cost me $25.00. But, this is my last try . . . if this still misses the mark I'm outta here ;)


Is it better to serve the truth or to be served by it?

[Bratislav]

Though this question contains elements of "dogmatic teaching", knowing the correct dogmas may not help some people find the correct answer.

Spiritually speaking, is it better to a) have Christ become incarnate within our souls, or b) become the disembodied Logos within our souls?

Does this question fit into your scheme of things, Seraphim(Owen)?

[Rick H.]

This is becoming like Lay's potato chips (you cannot stop with just one).


Is it better to evaluate without participation or to participate without evaluation?©


(Possibly some of our Anglican brothers and sisters, who would be Orthodox, would say neither/nor at the present time)


We are getting paid for this aren't we? (that didn't count as a try did it? . . . somebody stop me . . . :)

[Herman Blaydoe]

Sorry, I might as well expose my own spiritual ignorance, but to this simple mind, the obvious answer is "all of the above" or perhaps I am missing the fact that there is perhaps no "right" answer? Many of these questions, to me, are simply two sides of the same coin. Which side is the "right" side?

Is it better to be poor or rich? I don't know, but it is better to be "saved" (which I define for convenience sake in this instance, as "entering the Kingdom"). According to Scriptural evidence, being rich can make this harder, but Christ tells us ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE for God. Being rich is better if the rich person is a WISE STEWARD, using the TALENTS he is given for the "profit" of God, because for the poor person who is not wise, even what he has will be taken away.

If I am ill, and do not feel I am "ready" to stand in God's presence, then I will fight with all my strength to stay alive to the point where my repentance will be acceptable before God, because the Apostles tell us that spiritual warfare is to the last breath. I pray to God that I not die "too soon", and I pray every Liturgy for a death that is blameless and peaceful. And I will not stand in judgement of the person who simply says "Thy Will be done" with a clear conscience, regardless of my opinion of his actions up to that last breath.

Or perhaps the answer is "it depends"? OK, so I flunked the test. Now what?

[Louis A. Morrone]

How about:



Is it better to a) fight evil or b) suffer from evil?

In both cases, evil defeats you. There is only one choice, which is to provide an example of something better. Also, be careful, for it's up to God to decide what is evil.


Louis

[Herman Blaydoe]

It seems to this little brain that we are talking at cross purposes, or perhaps the confusion is only mine. If so please forgive. But I DO find the title confusing. IQ Test? This seems to imply that there is, in fact, a right answer and a wrong answer, or at least, that certain answers will result in a "higher" score and other answers will result in a lower score. What if I get a "high" score? Does this mean I am a "spiritual genius"? Does anyone else see a possible danger here of prelest? Or am I simply reading too much into it?

Therefore, I understand why certain people prefer the term "koan", which is simply a "thought problem", the expression of a paradox. It is in trying to harmonize the paradox that awareness begins. BOTH answers ARE right (or wrong), the real problem is to figure out HOW they can both be true or false at the same time (which ties in with the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle in quantum physics, but I digress...).

But that is not an "IQ Test". Or else I failed the test again.

[Owen Jones]

Current science has determined that IQ is purely a function of genetics. And that the prediction of future success is based on IQ. That is the current state of biological science with respect to behavior, intelligence, etc.

So to say that there is something like a spiritual intelligence test that might be a predictor of success in life is a way of refuting that, without having to get involved in ideological/scientistic debates. Of course, the whole definition of success would be different, OK?

The assumption is that there is a "better" answer, not necessarily an absolutely right answer.

[M.C. Steenberg]

Is it better to a) be hated or b) be embarrassed?

Does one grow more from a) a fall or b) recovery from a fall?

Is one more oneself when a) alone or b) in a group?

Is truth more readily a) seen or b) heard?

Is forgiveness a) an end or b) a beginning?

Is it more important a) to forgive or b) to be forgiven?

Is it of more profit a) to be mocked or b) to be ignored?


INXC, Matthew

[Rick H.]

Is it better for "The Jester" to have the pellet with the poison in: a.) the vessel with the pestle [and the brew that is true in the chalice from the palace] or b.) in the chalice from the palace [and the brew that is true in the vessel with the pestle]?

But wait, come to think of it they broke the vessel with the pestle and this has now been replaced with a flagon with a dragon. Okay, please replace the vessel in both "a.) and b.)" with the afore mentioned flagon in the above.

[Herman Blaydoe]

Danny Kaye and "The Court Jester" is one of my favorite movies!

Get it? Got it! Good!

Oh, no, don't get me started!


http://ia.ec.imdb.com/media/imdb/01/I/49/56/81/10m.jpg

[Owen Jones]

Jolly good show, Matthew! We just need a couple of dozen more....

[Victor Mihailoff]

I want to invite members to think about and contribute questions for a spiritual IQ test. The idea would be not to ask dogmatic questions, but questions that require a response from the soul that would not require prior knowledge in the form of theological "information" so to speak, but what is your soul telling you.

For example:

Question: Is it better to be a victim of an injustice, or to commit an injustice?

Hopefully we can come up with 25 good questions.

Dear Servant of Christ, Seraphim:

Many replies to your question but no answers.

I understand why you used the term I.Q. test. It has nothing to do with intelligence but with answers that come from one's nature rather than from complex external sources of text which derive their answers from others without guarenteeing the recipient the quality of true comprehension.

Ordinary people can quote brilliant people without understanding in their hearts what they are quoting.

My answer: It is better to be a victim of injustice than to commit an injustice; just like it is better to be St John the Baptist than King Herrod.

In Christ, Victor

[Anna]

Most people of at least some understanding would probably cheat on this test (maybe not consciously, but by saying what they believe to be the right answer regardless of their true feelings). Is that not telling in and of itself? After all, who wants to "fail" a spiritual IQ test?

Then you have to define your audience. Some of these questions would not fly with a Western mindset.

[Rick H.]

Most people of at least some understanding would probably cheat on this test (maybe not consciously, but by saying what they believe to be the right answer regardless of their true feelings). Is that not telling in and of itself? After all, who wants to "fail" a spiritual IQ test?

Then you have to define your audience. Some of these questions would not fly with a Western mindset.


I think I see what you are saying here Anna, and you make some good points; however as a counter point I think the true Beauty of this thread is found in what these thought questions do to a classic Western mindset.

Go ahead and give it a try :), the simplier the better here ;), it is actually in the formation of the question that I find the most value.

In Christ,
Rick

[Rick H.]

Afterthought . . .

Here's an oldie but a goodie Anna, and it applies somewhat to the above:

Is it better to a.) participate without evaluation; or b.) evaluate without participation?

[Victor Mihailoff]

Is it better to a) be hated or b) be embarrassed?

This depends on circumstances.

a) To be hated for Christ's sake is excellent! To be hated by victims that you persecute is a sign of your iniquity.

b) Embarassment is good when felt by proud, pretentious people and lack of it is good in spiritually humble people.


Does one grow more from a) a fall or b) recovery from a fall?

From the recovery. Demons fell & never recovered, did they grow in Christ-like stature? Of course not. Adam & Eve fell and recovered. They grew.


Is one more oneself when a) alone or b) in a group?

a) Introverts when alone. b) Extroverts when in a group


Is truth more readily a) seen or b) heard?

Neither. Some truths are eye-witnessed; some are testified. I think the poster mistakenly substituted the word "readily" for the correct word which could be for example, "accurately".

Or perhaps the question should be, "Is truth more believable when seen or heard?" Then the answer would be a) seen.


Is forgiveness a) an end or b) a beginning?

Both of course. It is an end of conflict and a beginning of peace for example. There are many correct variations to this answer.


Is it more important a) to forgive or b) to be forgiven?

Both are important, and what is more important as far as you are concerned depends on whether you are the offender or the victim.

a) You forgive your offender so that the Lord will also forgive you and to bring relief to a troubled and gilt-ridden person.

b) You need forgiveness for offending others by asking for it, thus removing negativity from your victim and you need forgiveness from God for your salvation.

eg. "Ask forgiveness for deliberately and selectively manipulating whatever someone states to be conveyed for others, thus creating a negative reputation for him/her. This is bearing false witness against thy neighbour, and requires both God's and your victim's forgiveness before you depart this world."


Is it of more profit a) to be mocked or b) to be ignored?

Both under different circumstances.

a) It is better to be mocked if you are a proud and pretentious man who feels more important than others because of say, spending more time acquiring a higher education and more letters after your name for the sake of respect, praise and power.

b) If one is a spiritual person, like an Orthodox hermit, who prefers the company of God and His heavenly servants, being ignored by proud, pretentious people is better than being mocked as the former leaves one alone to continue in one's spititual exchanges whereas the latter distracts from the spiritual exchanges with God and His heavenly servants and brings turmoil to an otherwise peaceful, prayerful person.


In XC, Victor

[Tim Grass]

Victor,

Seems like you've kind of missed the point of this thread and the questions!

--tim

[Anna]

Afterthought . . .

Here's an oldie but a goodie Anna, and it applies somewhat to the above:

Is it better to a.) participate without evaluation; or b.) evaluate without participation?

Ouch! Was that supposed to mean little 'ol me? :) You nailed me there, Rick.

I'm not much on philosphical questions, but one I can think of from my life would be: "Would you be willing to go to hell if it meant your children would enter heaven?"

Anna

[Anna]

Is it better to a) be hated or b) be embarrassed?

These are two different things, to be hated gives the opportunity to be forgiving. To be embarrassed means my pride has taken a hit and a good dose of humility is called for.


Does one grow more from a) a fall or b) recovery from a fall?

Recovery. If you stay down, you're out.


Is one more oneself when a) alone or b) in a group?

Alone...and without music or television blaring to keep you from having to be surrounded by your own thoughts.


Is truth more readily a) seen or b) heard?

Depends. We often see things that people want us to see and hear what they want us to hear. To get a true picture of someone we should see/hear them from the privacy of a closet when they are on day three of a family visit somewhere in the vicinity of a major holiday. This is related to the immediately preceding question.

Then there is the Truth of God and in whom do we see it--only in Christ himself. The remainder of us are, at best, only a dim reflection.


Is forgiveness a) an end or b) a beginning?

The beginning.


Is it more important a) to forgive or b) to be forgiven?

Again, it depends on perspective. To forgive means that you will be forgiven your sins. To be forgiven means the one who has wronged you gains the opportunity to be forgiven his. If your goal is your own salvation, then the first. If your goal is the salvation of others, then the latter. However, if in desiring the salvation of others above your own you win Paradise, then the latter, again.


Is it of more profit a) to be mocked or b) to be ignored?

Well, if in mocking we share the suffering of Christ, it is a blessing. To be ignored nails our pride to the cross and may help us grow--also a blessing. It depends upon our individual spiritual needs.

Just my poor thoughts.

Anna

[Rick H.]

Ouch! Was that supposed to mean little 'ol me? :) You nailed me there, Rick.




It wasn't supposed to hurt Anna! :) Actually, I wrote this one for myself awhile back as I was considering what may be called personal spiritual practices, as well as mysticism --in this sense it nails me. I think there are other applications beyond these two considerations.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts in this and the other post, very interesting.

In Christ,
Rick

[Victor Mihailoff]

Victor,

Seems like you've kind of missed the point of this thread and the questions!

--tim

Tim,

You are right. I just went back to the original post and re-read it. I have sat for so many IQ tests that I did what I always did before, I start answering the sample questions before reading the instructions on how to solve the sample questions.

Here's one for the list.

What is the purpose of Christian living? Is it to:

a) live ascetically?

b) help people who are suffering?

c) feed the poor?

d) acquire the Holy Spirit?

c) lead people to God?

d) bear trials and tribulations without losing hope or faith in God?

e) defend the Church against heresy?

In Christ, Victor

[Victor Mihailoff]

I want to invite members to think about and contribute questions for a spiritual IQ test.
Hopefully we can come up with 25 good questions.

If someone uses the "wisdom of the world" to criticise or question the validity of Holy Scripture, should we:

a) adopt a 'Your opinion is as worthy as mine' attitude?

b) accept their viewpoint as valid and then find ways to 'merge' our own viewpoint with their's to provide a common ground of mutual agreement?

c) offer no reply or response at all?

d) disassociate with them from that moment onwards?

e) agree with them because we hold similar criticisms of Scripture?

f) firmly defend the validity of the Scriptures even if this risks offending?

g) negotiate to achieve a middle road for the sake of peace?

h) punch them in the nose to force our viewpoint on them?

[Rick H.]

i) hang 'em high?

[Owen Jones]

It's a loaded question. The meaning of "Wisdom of the World" is not obvious to everyone. Try to come up with some non-loaded questions.

[Nina]

St. Serphaim of Sarov says that with worldly people we should talk only about human matters. With spiritual people we should talk about spiritual matters.

[Victor Mihailoff]

It's a loaded question. The meaning of "Wisdom of the World" is not obvious to everyone. Try to come up with some non-loaded questions.

The phrase 'wisdom of the world' is from the New Testament. If this is a spiritual IQ test for the Orthodox, I would think that it's appropriate to use such a phrase. However, since you are initiating the project, it is your baby. So perhaps 'secular reasoning' or 'worldly understanding' could be used as a substitute for 'wisdom of the world'.

In Christ, Victor

[Tim Grass]

QUOTE: The phrase 'wisdom of the world' is from the New Testament. If this is a spiritual IQ test for the Orthodox, I would think that it's appropriate to use such a phrase. However, since you are initiating the project, it is your baby. So perhaps 'secular reasoning' or 'worldly understanding' could be used as a substitute for 'wisdom of the world'.


The point of these questions is to ask things that aren't built on theological knowledge or dogmas...... it'll help if you read some of the earlier posts. Your question on Scripture is a totally different sort of question.

Here's one Owen: Is it better to A: hear Scripture without thinking, or B: think about Scripture without hearing?

--tim

[Herman Blaydoe]

I guess I am also one of those totally missing the point. An Intelligence Quotient is a comparative standard, it has a score. The questions have right and wrong answers. If the score is high enough, we count that person a "genius". These people are supposedly good at problem solving.

What is "spiritual intelligence"? To what standard do we compare it? What constitutes a score? If someone achieves a "high" score, so what? Can or should they be proud of achieving a high score? Doesn't that sort of defeat the very purpose of such a test?

All these questions seem more like koans than SIQ determinants. A koan is a question with no "right" answer, it is a puzzling, often paradoxical statement or story, used in Zen Buddhism as an aid to meditation and a means of gaining spiritual awakening. I am not too sure of its value in a Christian context.

OK, I'll shut up now.

Herman the puzzled Pooh, clapping with one hand.

[Rick H.]

I don't know Pooh. What about the different players and coaches piece you wrote (that brought about great illumination and balance for me) last year? And, regarding this thread, I think of Fr. Jack Sparks who wrote about different means for different folks (viz. each as is appropriate for oneself).

As far as the link to koans and the Buddhist, if we follow this train to its logical destination/conclusion, whereby anything the Buddhist does is or has done before the Orthodox is taboo then *poof* there goes monasticism. I think what Owen has developed here falls somewhere between a standard IQ test and a koan, but is neither fully. Too be honest with you I was a puzzled Pooh also at the outset, but I think I get it now and appreciate some of these questions that are not crafted in such a way as to illicit a contrived/desired answer.

On a side note, again, I find myself wondering what you would think about the book, "The Tao of Pooh," if you were to pick up a copy and skim it in a book store one day. Especially, in the very beginning of the book where the author writes about 'the vinegar tasters,' this is far from Orthodox; but, it is helpful. One hand clapping, the sound of silence, etc. these are not Orthodox concepts, and while at times they result only in a diagnosing of a ringing in the ear, or a tinnitus, I allow room for the idea that even these can be vehicles of illumination for the one on the path of Christ.

Possibly, the old Syrian saying is appropriate here, "Have faith in God, but tie your camel at night." :) Or, maybe even better yet, one from the late sage Johnny Carson who said, "Don't worry about the horse being blind, just load the wagon."

Peace to the reader,
Rick

[Herman Blaydoe]

As far as the link to koans and the Buddhist, if we follow this train to its logical destination/conclusion, whereby anything the Buddhist does is or has done before the Orthodox is taboo then *poof* there goes monasticism.

I never said that. I am not saying it is "taboo". All things may be lawful, but not all things edify. Test all things, keep that which is good.

But I ask again, what is the meaning or purpose of a Spiritual IQ test?

IQ: an intelligence test score that is obtained by dividing mental age, which reflects the age-graded level of performance as derived from population norms, by chronological age and multiplying by 100: a score of 100 thus indicates a performance at exactly the normal level for that age group.

I guess I fail the test.

O bother.

Herman the Pooh who don't know poo.

[Rick H.]

That's true Herman, you just questioned the value of a koan in a Christian context. I'll put that post of mine away and save it for another day for when someone wants to take the taboo position, or one that would lead to this stance if driven to its logical conclusion.

Possibly, this morning, that was the fundy left in me somewhere where one shoots first and ask questions later ;) But, still all the same . . . know that I have my eye on you partner!

In Christ,
Rick (the trigger happy :)

[Rick H.]

Is it better to have: a.) spirituality as the basis of ascesis; or b.) ascesis as the basis for spirituality?

[M.C. Steenberg]

Is it better to have: a.) spirituality as the basis of ascesis; or b.) ascesis as the basis for spirituality?

Oh, I do like this one. A good question with no answer to get one thinking!

INXC, Dcn Matthew

[Michael Stickles]

Is it better to have: a.) spirituality as the basis of ascesis; or b.) ascesis as the basis for spirituality?

Yes. Both, simultaneously. Absolutely.

This question makes me think of the old game where you'd get a bunch of people standing in a circle, then everyone sits down at the same time on the lap of the person behind them. Who's on the bottom? Everyone. No one. They all hold each other up.

That is, unless you mess up and everyone collapses into a pile. Which, come to think of it, is a good picture of my attempts at ascetical practice.

Mike

[Denys Kosovsky]

Perhaps you should consult a number of confessors with experience; a monastic insight would also be invaluable. Because the confessors would know about the issues facing their pasture and the monks would know our inner battles.

I think this could be quite interesting.

[David Stark]

There's a difference between education (what a person knows) and intelligence (what a person has). Some people are very intelligent, but not thoroughly educated.

[Olga]

.... and there are some who are highly educated, but have "no brains".

[Deanna Leonti]

St. Serphaim of Sarov says that with worldly people we should talk only about human matters. With spiritual people we should talk about spiritual matters.

I have wondered about this myself.

My question is;" if everyone's head was constantly concerned with the heavenly realm, there wouldn't be a bridge to gap between heaven and the world, and then what would happen to the ones in the world"?

example; the heavenly doesn't have to worry about the necessities in life, necessities are miraculously provided for.
however, the world does, so if the heavenly doesn't have to worry about these necessities how then does the heavenly identify or have an compassionate understanding for the world to bridge the gap closer and upward towards the heavenly realm?.


Deanna

[Kenaniah Stickles]

Is it better to have: a.) spirituality as the basis of ascesis; or b.) ascesis as the basis for spirituality?

I may be showing my youth and inexperience here, but I have often been told there is no such thing as a stupid question, so: What is "ascesis"?

(I could also ask what is spirituality, but I already know in general what it means, and I'm not sure I'm spiritually mature enough to really understand it.)

[Owen Jones]

ascesis literally means training. Specifically, it refers to spiritual exercises that train and develop our spiritual muscles, so to speak.

[Owen Jones]

Spirituality (an 18th century enlightenment term) should be substituted with the word holiness. Although perhaps a better word might be serenity. Then I can go along with Mr. Henry's paradox. Do you have to first acquire serenity in order to practice askesis, or is it the other way around?

[Owen Jones]

Miss Leontis raises some classical questions. In theory at least, we could all become spiritual to the extent that we would have no worldly cares. Fear not! Christ commands us. Do not concern yourself as to where your next meal will come from. God provides for the sparrows in the field, and He will provide for you. And we have to take this seriously. On the other hand, we share in the material, fallen state, and this state is never entirely overcome in this existence, no matter how holy we might become -- so we toil both spiritually and materially for our sustainance.

We are composite beings, not entirely one or the other, not entirely spiritual, nor entirely material. Which is how God has willed it. We have to be careful to steer clear of a gnosticism of the spirit, that says that we should attempt to become so spiritual that we would dematerialize. On the other hand, we should avoid the opposite pole of resorting to the cliche: I'm only human!

Any way to pose this tension as questions in the IQ test?

[Deanna Leonti]

How about:
Is it better to a) fight evil or b) suffer from evil?


Sometimes, the during and/or after effects of fighting evil or suffering from evil are the same, pending upon the individual.

[Rick H.]

What is "ascesis"?






ascesis literally means training. Specifically, it refers to spiritual exercises that train and develop our spiritual muscles, so to speak.




I wonder if we could add "ascesis" to the monachos dictionary when there is time?

In Christ,
Rick

[Rick H.]

From the monachos dictionary (found it on second look):

Ascesis
n.

From the Greek for 'preparation' (originally a sporting term, referring to the athletic preparations for events and games), most often refers to rigorous self-denial and active self-restraint, in purification of the will and the whole human person for a more active participation in the life in Christ. Broadly indicates the practice of holistic means to engage the human person in the Christian life.

May refer to specific ascetical acts: e.g. fasting, vigils, almsgiving.

May refer to the personal practices of an individual's Christian life (e.g. 'His ascesis was severe').

In Christ,
Rick

[Paul Cowan]

So Owen,

Did you get enough responses to put together your data list?

Is it better a) to pray or b) to listen for that still quiet voice?

Is it better a) to read the Bible or b) have the Bible read to you?

Is it better a) to walk the dog or b) be walked by the dog? (little off topic, but just sorta popped in my head.)

Is it better a) to love your enemy or b) 'hate' your friend?

Is it better a) love money or b) to love God? (He never really says which though the inference is there.)
or is it better a) to hate money or b) hate God? ( yes, I know the answer, but this is Owen's test not mine)


Matthew 6:24 “No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon.

Is it better a) to sow or b) to reap?

Paul

[Owen Jones]

I don't think we are quite there yet. Maybe some day...

[Rick H.]

Is it better to have a spirituality that: a.) starts with the sacred; or, b.) stops with the sacred?

[Byron Jack Gaist]

Dear Owen,

How about: Is knowledge of truth best acquired a) through exploration and a quest for the discovery of knowledge, or b) through the attainment of quality in personal relationship? I'm thinking of John 18:38.

Fr Raphael
Is the evil which surrounds us something we must escape from at all costs? This is a profound question. Iulia De Beausobre, in her short essay on 'Creative Suffering', writes of the yurodivy or holy fool, as someone who redeems evil by participating in it. Owen draws a further conclusion by suggesting that evil can be fought or suffered, and that both reactions may have redemptive potential. Can you share with us a few more thoughts on this theme, especially wrt "keep thy mind in hell and despair not"?

In Christ
Byron

[Rick H.]

Is knowledge of truth best acquired a) through exploration and a quest for the discovery of knowledge, or b) through the attainment of quality in personal relationship? I'm thinking of John 18:38.




This would be a good one for a desert hermit . . . or, a writing theologian!

For some reason this comes to mind now:

Is it better to: a.) write as I learn; or b.) learn as I write?

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Byron wrote:


Iulia De Beausobre, in her short essay on 'Creative Suffering', writes of the yurodivy or holy fool, as someone who redeems evil by participating in it. Owen draws a further conclusion by suggesting that evil can be fought or suffered, and that both reactions may have redemptive potential. Can you share with us a few more thoughts on this theme, especially wrt "keep thy mind in hell and despair not"?

Ultimately Christ wants us to share with Him in the redemption of what is evil. This is achieved through a self sacrificial activity that neither seeks to escape from evil nor to participate in it. Instead evil is redeemed in Christ through love, by not drawing back from the fire that is evil & by approaching it in a selfless manner.

We cannot go very far in describing this essential aspect of the Christian life however without reminding ourselves that evil is or should be known by us in the personal manner in which it is always manifested. In other words we make a mistake if we act as if evil can be redeemed as an abstract force. No- rather, evil comes to us always via some person or persons. So that it is always in this sense through people, through love for them, and by seeing that our own evil tarnishes our vision of them and/or leads us to participate in the very same evil they are part of. In other words a beginning of redeeming of evil can only come from that understanding of evil that comes from humility- that evil is very real and very active, but that we also are willing participants in it.

In all of this and in this sense it is harmful to try to escape from evil. Of course to avoid the personal act of sin- yes. But to seek to avoid the situation of evil- this is wrong. Not as something we say is unrealistic- this would lead only to cynicism. But rather as that which is part of our essential calling in Christ.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Michael Woods]

Is it better to:

A) Beable to clearly see evil, so that you can defend against it. Or...

B) To only see good, for good is in everything.

[Anna Stickles]

We are composite beings, not entirely one or the other, not entirely spiritual, nor entirely material. Which is how God has willed it. We have to be careful to steer clear of a gnosticism of the spirit, that says that we should attempt to become so spiritual that we would dematerialize. On the other hand, we should avoid the opposite pole of resorting to the cliche: I'm only human!

Any way to pose this tension as questions in the IQ test?

Are we more spiritual when we are praying or when we we are suffering? Is prayer suffering or bliss?

Is it better to leave the world in order to be with God, or to leave God and be with the world?

[Anna Stickles]

Is it better to:

A) Beable to clearly see evil, so that you can defend against it. Or...

B) To only see good, for good is in everything.


This is achieved through a self sacrificial activity that neither seeks to escape from evil nor to participate in it.
Defensiveness seems to me to always be a reaction of escape.
Can we be defensive toward evil and have compassion on the evil doer at the same time? Is defensiveness ever compatible with humility and meekness?

Here is a good question for our spiritual IQ test.

What is evil?

[Michael Woods]

Here is a good question for our spiritual IQ test.

What is evil?

Evil within itself is anything that is not created by God.

[Gloria]

Is it better to be a) poor or b) rich? (or have we asked that question already?)

Yes, we have.

[Byron Jack Gaist]

Dear Fr Raphael,


Ultimately Christ wants us to share with Him in the redemption of what is evil. This is achieved through a self sacrificial activity that neither seeks to escape from evil nor to participate in it. Instead evil is redeemed in Christ through love, by not drawing back from the fire that is evil & by approaching it in a selfless manner.

We cannot go very far in describing this essential aspect of the Christian life however without reminding ourselves that evil is or should be known by us in the personal manner in which it is always manifested. In other words we make a mistake if we act as if evil can be redeemed as an abstract force. No- rather, evil comes to us always via some person or persons. So that it is always in this sense through people, through love for them, and by seeing that our own evil tarnishes our vision of them and/or leads us to participate in the very same evil they are part of. In other words a beginning of redeeming of evil can only come from that understanding of evil that comes from humility- that evil is very real and very active, but that we also are willing participants in it.

In all of this and in this sense it is harmful to try to escape from evil. Of course to avoid the personal act of sin- yes. But to seek to avoid the situation of evil- this is wrong. Not as something we say is unrealistic- this would lead only to cynicism. But rather as that which is part of our essential calling in Christ. Thank you for this further clarification. Actually, it helps me to consider some things in a new way in my own life. I remember a story about the elder Porphyrios who accidentally entered a bordello while blessing houses one Theophany. He started chanting "Lord, when you were baptised in the Jordan...", upon which a woman who was probably the madame of the establishment turned up and said he should go away. In the meantime, several young women came out of various rooms in the house. The elder realized he was in a bordello, but not only did he stay there, he also told the madame - who had offered to kiss the cross while suggesting it would be inappropriate for the other women to do so - that if he had to answer to God just then, he might tell Him that it was she who was not fit to kiss the cross, as their souls were kinder than hers. These are harsh words, but I'm sure the elder knew why he spoke them. He blessed all the women, and reminded them to love God in return for His providence in order to be happy.

I guess that it's significant that the elder chose to stay, and it may have something to do with not avoiding the evil situations we find ourselves in. This one is for braver souls than mine, but I wonder, should we also go looking for evil, knowing where it is, if we feel that with God's help we might be able to be useful to that situation?

Dear Anna, I think you're right that "seeing only the good" is often defensiveness. While Michael is surely also correct in suggesting good is in everything - if by that he means God's will is always at work even in situations the human mind cannot comprehend - nonetheless I think the ability to see "only" the good would take a saint's eyes if it is not to be somehow artificially induced (Titus 1:15). For the time being at least, I'm personally working on being able to see the good in anything!


In Christ,
Byron

[Paul Cowan]

This one is for braver souls than mine, but I wonder, should we also go looking for evil, knowing where it is, if we feel that with God's help we might be able to be useful to that situation?

Byron

ummm, no. This would be self delusion to think God would send us "looking" for evil when there is plenty around us right where we are. Now, if I knew someone was being harmed in an evil place, I might be willing to go "save" them; but I am not going to go looking for that evil place in hopes of saving some one.

[Michael Stickles]

This one is for braver souls than mine, but I wonder, should we also go looking for evil, knowing where it is, if we feel that with God's help we might be able to be useful to that situation?

I wonder if, instead of thinking in terms of "looking for evil", a better way of thinking would be in terms of "looking for the good that is held in bondage where evil dwells, and freeing it"?

Elder Porphyrios could obviously see good even in the bordello, as attested by the story you shared:


he also told the madame - who had offered to kiss the cross while suggesting it would be inappropriate for the other women to do so - that if he had to answer to God just then, he might tell Him that it was she who was not fit to kiss the cross, as their souls were kinder than hers.

However, if we can't see the good, we most likely can be of no good in the situation. Also, if we do not have a full and humble knowledge of our own sin and frailties, then in rushing in we might only succeed in "impaling ourselves on the enemy's sword", so to speak.

Personally, if I "know where evil is" and feel my intervention might "be useful to that situation", my first thought is to pray, not try to engage it in "hand-to-hand combat". I'm under no illusions about my readiness in that arena.

In Christ,
Michael

[Rick H.]

Is it better to have: a.) all aspects of our faith integral to our life; or b.) all aspects of our life integral to our faith?

[Michael Woods]

Which is better:

A) To pray for yourself... or

B) To pray for others.

[Father David Moser]

It is best

C) to pray without ceasing.

Fr David Moser

[Rick H.]

Is it better to operate by means of : a.) an obedience of faith; or, b.) just faith?



PS But, then again, there is that option C) of Fr. David's above. :)

[Rick H.]

Happy Birthday Spiritual IQ Thread!


Owen--It's been three years to the day since this thread was started, do we have any questions here that count towards the twenty-five? :0)

[Marie-Duquette]

Rick,

Peace! What do you mean by "obedience of faith", or "just faith"? I'm thinking of those "canning jars" you mentioned on the window sills of your kitchen . . . are these put up by your wife with "obedience of faith", "just faith", or "praying without ceasing"? What do all the previous questions imply in spiritual life, in daily life, right now, today on this feast of St Anthony the Great?

marie-duquette

[Rick H.]

Hi Marie!!!

It's really good to hear from you! I hope things have been well for you. I have wondered how you have been doing. Monachos has not had as many flowers around its campus since you have not been writing as much. Please feel free to plant some new ones or to point out any bulbs that you see popping up in the next several weeks.




What do you mean by "obedience of faith", or "just faith"?



I think I am considering the question is obedience always an exercise of faith[?] or when is obedience *not* an exercise of faith[?], and I am referring to the expression the "obedience of faith" in terms of a system that one subscribes to and prescribes for others . . . and in this there can be as much of a faith in a system as there is anything else. In this there can be a kind of surrender that is nothing more than an escapism or a very sophisticated system of non-surrender so that what one wants to do he can do. Or, this can be seen in a kind of relinquishing of control in a way that places some seemingly in a place of no blame if things don't go well (with something akin to a golden parachute in their minds), because 'I was just doing what I was told.' I see this a lot with my Catholic friends, it is so clear that they have their defense for God already to go for Judgment Day, in that I believed what the Church taught and I did what the Church taught, so don't blame me if something wasn't right! For some reason this is more overt with them. But, when we consider this along side "faith" in terms of faith in Christ, then there is not so much room for system(s) and faith in a system as there is faith in a Person. So there is a tension here in this way I think, and this tension is behind my IQ question above. What is systematic for one is non-systematic for another.

As far as my wife's canning jars full of good things goes, if you force me to think about it further then I think I will conclude that it is a very simple thing in that while she has sacrificed of herself to put these up, they are freely offered in Love in the hope that they will be accepted in Love. So in the End, Love would hold the seat of primacy there.

Very good to hear from you Marie! Now quit asking so many hard questions! These I.Q. questions are supposed to be questions that just make us think anyway . . . :) ;0) :)

[Rick H.]

Is it better for a person in Russia to never hear about Jesus at all, or to hear about Jesus from an evangelical?

Is it better for someone to be nominally Orthodoxy (e.g. without conscious faith in Christ) or to be an evangelical who fervently loves Jesus?




..........

[Herman Blaydoe]

Who is to judge what is "nominal" or "fervent" save for ourselves alone? Romans 4:14

[Rick H.]

Who is to judge what is "nominal" or "fervent" save for ourselves alone? Romans 4:14


I dunno Pooh? That sounds kind of like Protestant teaching to me? :) ;)

[Panayota K.]

Can someone tell me what's the point of this? Supposedly you manage to get the 25 "right" questions, what do you hope to gain from them?

Panayota

[Rick H.]

Can someone tell me what's the point of this? Supposedly you manage to get the 25 "right" questions, what do you hope to gain from them?

Panayota


Before you can know the answer to this question, first, you have to guess the secret word.

http://img.timeinc.net/time/photoessays/2007/game_shows/groucho_marx.jpg

[Paul Cowan]

Before you can know the answer to this question, first, you have to guess the secret word.

http://img.timeinc.net/time/photoessays/2007/game_shows/groucho_marx.jpg

sauerbraten

[Kusanagi]

This one is for braver souls than mine, but I wonder, should we also go looking for evil, knowing where it is, if we feel that with God's help we might be able to be useful to that situation?


You can always start off handling "smaller evils" rather than jump head on into something beyond your strength. Remember it is best not to tempt the Lord. I say it is better to look for good since I feel it is harder to find plus you might be influenced by the evil environment you are in where you think you are protected by God's help but really you needed something to make you be more humble.

[Michael Woods]

Before you can know the answer to this question, first, you have to guess the secret word.

http://img.timeinc.net/time/photoessays/2007/game_shows/groucho_marx.jpg

Is it...
A) a good heart... or

B) a immaculate heart

[Byron Jack Gaist]

You can always start off handling "smaller evils" rather than jump head on into something beyond your strength. Remember it is best not to tempt the Lord. I say it is better to look for good since I feel it is harder to find plus you might be influenced by the evil environment you are in where you think you are protected by God's help but really you needed something to make you be more humble. Thanks for this, Kusanagi. Like I said, I do not consider myself strong enough to resist most situations where I'm aware something evil may be going on. I would probably just succumb to whatever temptations were there. With God's help, all is possible of course. Nevertheless, I posed the question in a detached and theoretical manner, out of curiosity (but hopefully not 'idle' curiosity) perhaps, because I'm aware it doesn't really apply to me at this stage. Sadly, I find myself perfectly capable of producing copious amounts of my own evil, so looking for it elsewhere seems rather pointless! Nevertheless, it's also true that evil seems to come looking for us when we're not expecting it, so that's another way in which the question may turn out to be relevant to the notion of 'spiritual IQ' as suggested by Owen. Whichever way it comes - from within us, from outside us, or because we have gone looking for it out of spiritual naivety or a desire to help, I think the answer is probably still ascesis and prayer.

Looking for good is indeed very hard, at least if you have a pessimistic disposition. It's a very good aim though, if it can be grounded in reality and doesn't become some empty form of naivete, mere sentiment or false idealism. So here's another 'spiritual IQ' question: is it better to (a) combat evil, or (b) seek the good in everything? Have we asked this before?

In Christ
Byron

[Rick H.]

Is it better to maintain the 'tautology': a.) A = A . . . and if you have A, it is not non-A; or b.) A = A is a dead logic?

Is it better to: a.) have dominion over tautological propositions; or b.) have tautological propositions have dominion over you?

Is it better to eat sauerbraten: a.) faring sumptuously by the fire on a great estate; or b.) with bitter beans in the cold?

Is it better to know: a.) absolutes imply antithesis; or b.) absolutes are a denial of being?

Is it better to live: a.) in praise of folly; or b.) with dame folly, herself, praising you?

[Kusanagi]

is it better to (a) combat evil, or (b) seek the good in everything? Have we asked this before?

I think it has been asked before but remembering what my friend told me he said it's best to seek good in everything which he honestly does because in combating evil you might say end up making wrong judgements which may lead to some bad situations which may or may not take you a long long time to clean up.
Another example is St Seraphim of Sarov's teaching, "Maintain peace and thousands around you would be saved" how I read this is interpreted is when other people whether they are good or bad see that you have such peace within they would want to have this experience also and would seek this peace which in turn helps in combating evil but not in a direct sense.

[Panayota K.]

Sorry, I didn't get it. Who's that man and the secret word????
(It's not my lacking of humour but the usual, cultural gap...)

P

[Rick H.]

You Bet Your Life - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/You_Bet_Your_Life#The_secret_word)

I am hoping Owen will share with you what the point of this thread is (and let me know how we are doing in the quest for the 25 questions). Actually, in the first few pages of this thread you can take bits and pieces from him, in several of his posts, as he has explained a few times what this is about.

Cultural gaps (and ghettos) can really take the fun out things sometimes! Sometimes it's best to just smile and nod P. :) Or, you can do what some academics do when they don't know what is being said in a given conversation . . . you can just smile knowingly and use the expression "Ahh" and repeat what has been said, for example: "Ahh, the secret word."

Welcome to Owen Jones's "Spiritual IQ Zone!"

[Panayota K.]

You Bet Your Life - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/You_Bet_Your_Life#The_secret_word)

I am hoping Owen will share with you what the point of this thread is (and let me know how we are doing in the quest for the 25 questions). Actually, in the first few pages of this thread you can take bits and pieces from him, in several of his posts, as he has explained a few times what this is about.

Cultural gaps (and ghettos) can really take the fun out things sometimes! Sometimes it's best to just smile and nod P. :) Or, you can do what some academics do when they don't know what is being said in a given conversation . . . you can just smile knowingly and use the expression "Ahh" and repeat what has been said, for example: "Ahh, the secret word."

Welcome to Owen Jones's "Spiritual IQ Zone!"


"Ahh, the secret word.", she repeated smilling knowingly and nodding with the certainty she understood nothing. (How did I do?)

I've read the previous pages, in a hurry i admit, but found only what this thread should be about, not why. Anyway I'll check again.
Many of the dillemas are in fact questions that trouble me too. I have one myself ; is the love the basis of the spiritual fight or its purpose (sorry if this was mentioned before, I don't remember). As such, I can understand the point of this. But measuring our spirituality through a test... I don't know. It seems to me that we are deteriorating a sense greater than man.

What's next? "Life in Spirit; 5 steps to take you there..!" (hope this is funny internationally)

Anyway, do your kefi and let's see where this is taking us..

P

[Father David Moser]

"Ahh, the secret word."

If I recall correctly (and here I belie my age somewhat) should that more properly be "the secret woid"

Fr David Moser

[Rick H.]

"Ahh, the secret word.", she repeated smiling knowingly and nodding with the certainty she understood nothing. (How did I do?)



That's perfect! See, that quick and your in!

Otherwise, "Ahh, kefi . . . yes! kefi," he said, knowing that he would have time to look this up before he responded further to P. And, after learning what kefi is he smiled again suspecting that there is another Greek lady who can read him like a book here on monachos now.

If this is kefi:




The literal translation is "fun" but that really doesn't describe Kefi. Kefi is spirit, triumph, joy, adrenaline, the state of being aware of experiencing a good time, a celebration of being Greek, with good friends, food and drink, laughter, emotion, sentiment and finally...something only a Greek can really feel.

If you're a Greek reading this, you know what I mean and to others...go out with your Greek friends and ask them to tell you when "that moment" of Kefi has been reached...maybe then you'll understand.



Then I am aquatinted with this state of being even though I'm not Greek. And, there has been some serious kefi going on here in some of these last few posts. This will help me to relate to my Greek friends better now too. :) I always thought that in order to be Greek all one had to do was show up a half hour late everywhere you go and once there be very loud . . . but, this adds a new dimension that is helpful. :) Kefi is my new favorite word.




Many of the dilemmas are in fact questions that trouble me too. I have one myself ; is the love the basis of the spiritual fight or its purpose (sorry if this was mentioned before, I don't remember). As such, I can understand the point of this.



Actually, I'm winding down now . . . but this is a very good start on your part. I wonder if this can be put into the kind of format that Owen is looking for here. As for measuring our spirituality, when you reread Owen's posts in this thread, I think you will see that that has nothing to do with this project.

Thanks to both you and Fr. David for the good humor (yes 'woid'). :)

Actually, kefi is the exception here, but with or without it, yes, let's see where this goes . . . and feel free to get your kefi on here too P. :D

[Panayota K.]

That's perfect! See, that quick and your in!

Otherwise, "Ahh, kefi . . . yes! kefi," he said, knowing that he would have time to look this up before he responded further to P. And, after learning what kefi is he smiled again suspecting that there is another Greek lady who can read him like a book here on monachos now.

If this is kefi:



Then I am aquatinted with this state of being even though I'm not Greek. And, there has been some serious kefi going on here in some of these last few posts. This will help me to relate to my Greek friends better now too. :) I always thought that in order to be Greek all one had to do was show up a half hour late everywhere you go and once there be very loud . . . but, this adds a new dimension that is helpful. :) Kefi is my new favorite word.



Actually, I'm winding down now . . . but this is a very good start on your part. I wonder if this can be put into the kind of format that Owen is looking for here. As for measuring our spirituality, when you reread Owen's posts in this thread, I think you will see that that has nothing to do with this project.

Thanks to both you and Fr. David for the good humor (yes 'woid'). :)

Actually, kefi is the exception here, but with or without it, yes, let's see where this goes . . . and feel free to get your kefi on here too P. :D

I'm glad you liked the term! I'm more glad you looked it up too ( too bored to do it myself, incredibly rude of me, I know, but it was payback time for the innumerous times you people of Monachos made me do the same -he he!).
You got the general idea but the expression do your kefi = do as you please. So I meant "have fun" too (of course) but my intention was "keep it up"

You are right for two things; 1. yeap, we, Greek ladies, have the tendency to be clairvoyant and 2. for someone to be a genuine Greek = be late and loud, actually you don't have to be late, just make sure you are not "getting lost in the croud" ( i hope no Greeks read this)

As for the thread I don't think I will continue since I am not convinced but as I said I'll see the previous posts again. Thanks for the invitation though. It was fun!!!!

Panayota

[Alkateb]

That is intriguing statement no doubt about it, but overlooks the fact that we are of sinful nature and in God's mercy we acquired some freedom to choose life but in the same time if we don't the consequences would be worse. If I can give an example from Jeremiah the outstanding prophet in his first or second sermon he declared God regarded Judah more sinful than Israel since they had seen their fate with the Assyrians yet kept their hearts away from the Lord, also in his first sermon Holy Spirit declared they committed double sin by forsaking God and worshiping idols

Kamel

[Alkateb]

It is best to be with the LORD

[Byron Jack Gaist]

Dear all,

Aahh, kefi, yes of course. Akin to nephesh and to duende. Here are a couple of etymologies:


kaif : status; mood [kayyafa] Alb qejf, Aze kef, Bul kef, Gre kefi, Per keyf, Tat keyef, Tur keyif borrowed from Ar

kaif : how [kayyafa] Per keyf borrowed from Ar

kaifia : quality [kayyafa] Aze keyfiyyet, Hin kaifiyat, Ind kaifiat, Per keyfiyat borrowed from Ar

and
kef 1808, from Arabic kaif "well-being, good-humor." Specifically, state of dreaming intoxication produced by smoking cannabis; dolce far niente. In Morocco and Algeria, it was the name for Indian hemp. It would appear that 'kefi' has Middle-Eastern origins, but transnational dimensions. Cannabis certainly does.

As for Greeks being late and loud, I should know, being the single punctual, introverted Greek on the planet.:)

Humorously,
Byron

[Seda S.]

Dear all,

Aahh, kefi, yes of course. Akin to nephesh and to duende. Here are a couple of etymologies:

and It would appear that 'kefi' has Middle-Eastern origins, but transnational dimensions. Cannabis certainly does.

As for Greeks being late and loud, I should know, being the single punctual, introverted Greek on the planet.:)

Humorously,
Byron

To that list of languages, using the Arabic word 'keyf', also add the Armenian kef and the Russian кайф ('kayf'). The Russians also use the verb кайфовать and the adjective кайфовый (but these are colloquialisms). It seems, not only the Greeks, but many other nations кайфуют :).

[Olympiada]

I think this is a dangerous topic to embark on. Spirituality does not need to be compared to the kind of intelligence that can be measured on tests...

[Paul Cowan]

This "test" has been around for just over 3 years. Where have you been?

It is not the test that we are taking or trying to answer. It is the dichotomy between ideas that brings us to think on how we perceive existence. Is it a) better to reply to silly messages or b) let silly messages answer for themselves?

[Byron Jack Gaist]

Dear all,

Olympiada raises, I think, an important question. I don't believe anyone on this thread really thinks that spiritual intelligence can be measured, and even Owen's intial suggestion for such a test I took to be tongue-in-cheek. The alternative is simply too grim to consider, for if we do try to quantify 'spirituality' (as we psychologists have done for 'intelligence' and 'personality' and almost every other human intangible), the path to aptitiude tests for clergy and monastics, custom-designed liturgical services etc. would lie wide open. I note, too, that there is a book on "SQ" or 'spiritual intelligence' (by which is meant the capacity for meaning) by D. Zohar & S. Marshall. It is a popular psychology book following the tradition of D. Goleman's "EQ" or 'emotional intelligence'. So the potential to turn 'spirituality' into a quantifiable variable does exist.

The questions we've been discussing on this thread however, are not even real 'multiple choice' questions with a single 'right answer'. Most of them are interesting and provocative (as well as some plain silly ones), providing some entertainment together with food for thought, as Paul says a
dichotomy between ideas that brings us to think on how we perceive existence I would hope that if anyone did ever collate these and others into a 'spiritual IQ' test, this would only be offered in that spirit of a light philosophical exercise or a tool for further contemplation; the idea of actually assessing spiritual ability is itself deeply incongruous, IMHO.

Having said this, another 'spiritual intelligence' question does come up for me: is it better to (a) pursue spirituality fervently and in earnest without lapsing into humour or laughter, or (b) occasionally relax the tension by seeing the funny side of things? After all, as Seda suggests, human nature does include a sense of passionate fun:
not only the Greeks, but many other nations кайфуют . Thus, wrt to the former question, is it better to (a) try to develop a refined and inclusive sense of humour, or (b) drop humour and laughter altogether?


In Christ
Byron

[Michael Stickles]

Thus, wrt to the former question, is it better to (a) try to develop a refined and inclusive sense of humour, or (b) drop humour and laughter altogether?

I'll go with (c) - work with the sense of humor you have, but try to develop a sensitivity to the different sense of humor (or complete lack thereof) that another person might have.

Y'know I've noticed so far that, on proposed questions with (a) and (b) as choices, (c) seems to be the most popular answer. Would it be better to (a) try to expand our proposed answer sets to include more of the potential answers, or (b) leave it at a dichotomized "a" and "b" to encourage "thinking outside the box"?

In Christ,
Michael

[Marie-Duquette]

b} thinking outside the box: try a little kefir that is sure to get
rid of any anti-bodies real quick; and, also give a little more
fluidity to the thought. could be wrong, could be right, who knows?

[Rick H.]

Is it better to know: a.) how much of the Church's teaching one must accept to be Orthodox?; or, b.) who determines how much of the Church's teaching one must accept to be Orthodox?

[Herman Blaydoe]

It is best to know Christ.

[Rick H.]

It is best to know Christ.

I think we have our first "A" in the history of the Spiritual IQ Test.

[Constantine Georgiades]

I was once asked whether I would agree to be spiritually examined. I agreed of course and one of the questions that I found interesting was "As a Christian, do you believe that you can lay hands on someone and heal them?"

Answer to be "Yes" or "No".

I have asked this question of many Christians that I have met and they invariably come up with a different answer to mine.

In Christ, His unworthy servant,
Constantine

[Byron Jack Gaist]

"As a Christian, do you believe that you can lay hands on someone and heal them?"...Answer to be "Yes" or "No".Good question, Constantine! Without having any preferences or bias (that I'm aware of), my answer would, if presented with a forced-choice alternative, be "Yes". If God wanted to heal someone in this manner, I believe that would be possible; but I don't think being a Christian automatically gives one magical healing powers. What was your answer?

In Christ,
Byron

[Panayota K.]

I'm so glad this topic came forward again! I always enjoy what our mind and spiritual quest come up with!!!

Well, I have a question; Is humour a characteristic of God -in the sense that every good in us is a reflection of God's qualities- or a "fallen" option of joy?

[Richard A. Downing]

I was once asked <snip> "As a Christian, do you believe that you can lay hands on someone and heal them?"
Constantine

My very close friend, an Anglican Bishop, but very close to orthodoxy none-the-less, two weeks before he died from cancer, asked me this very question.

I didn't have time to ask for permission or guidance from my Priest, so I did indeed lay hands on him. We prayed, not for his recovery as he was 87, but for sufficient strength to be able to baptise in person his latest granddaughter that Sunday.

Our prayers were answered. And he died exactly, almost to the hour, a week after the baptism surrounded by all his family.

Now I don't know if he or I passed the Spiritual IQ test or not, but if anyone ever asks me lay hands on them in the future, I will. Healing does not always imply longer earthly life, just readiness for a meeting with Jesus.

INXC
Richard.

[Evan]

I'm so glad this topic came forward again! I always enjoy what our mind and spiritual quest come up with!!!

Well, I have a question; Is humour a characteristic of God -in the sense that every good in us is a reflection of God's qualities- or a "fallen" option of joy?


The first sermon in Christian history begins with what seems to me to be a joke-- to paraphrase, "We can't be drunk, it's only 9 o'clock!" Now, whether God is "amused" I leave to the more theologically astute. Although the psalms do speak of Him "laughing" at the unrighteous who would set their face against Him.

In Christ,
Evan

[Constantine Georgiades]

What was your answer?

In Christ,
Byron

As I mentioned in my earlier post, 'they invariably come up with a different answer to mine'.

In Christ, His unworthy servant,
Constantine

[Panayota K.]

The first sermon in Christian history begins with what seems to me to be a joke-- to paraphrase, "We can't be drunk, it's only 9 o'clock!"

In Christ,
Evan

I've never thought of it that way. Interesting.. As for the laughing I think it must be an anthropomorphic phrase.

In any case I was wondering about humour because it seems to me that it's an element not highly appreciated by Orthodox people and I am curious to find out if it gets along with spirituality.

[Constantine Georgiades]

Well, I have a question; Is humour a characteristic of God -in the sense that every good in us is a reflection of God's qualities- or a "fallen" option of joy?

"No" There is no mention of humour in the scriptures. Laughter, yes.

What is your perception of joy?

In Christ, His unworthy and wicked servant,
Constantine

[Rick H.]

Click on:


The place of 'joy' in Orthodoxy (http://www.monachos.net/forum/showthread.php?6981-The-place-of-joy-in-Orthodoxy&highlight=place) :mad:

[Constantine Georgiades]

Click on:

The place of 'joy' in Orthodoxy (http://www.monachos.net/forum/showthread.php?6981-The-place-of-joy-in-Orthodoxy&highlight=place) :mad:

My dear brother in Christ, Rick,

Have you now found and received the gift of God's "Joy"?

In Christ, His unworthy servant,
Constantine

[Rick H.]

Hi Constantine, This is an easy question to answer--no. I have not experienced the fullness of God's joy for a year or two, and especially not in the past day or two with my online experience to be sure.

The best I can muster lately is some occasional kefi!

PS I imagine you know that was a link to be clicked on that I posted above, and that my angry smiley next to the thread title was tongue-in-cheek?

[Constantine Georgiades]

I have not experienced the fullness of God's joy for a year or two, and especially not in the past day or two with my online experience to be sure.

The best I can muster lately is some occasional kefi!


My dear brother in Christ, Rick,

No worries. I had used the link on your posting and I re read the various postings on 'The place of joy in Orthodoxy' and I found them interesting. But first forgive me for writing something that appears to have prompted a negative thought from you to my earlier posting, I give you my assurance that this was not intentional. Are we good now?

Why do we as Christians make our faith so complicated? It's all so very simple to understand and follow. When we are guided to do the most simplest of tasks we fail to do them through our own weakness and disobedience... I am the worst offender.

My question 'What is your perception of joy?' was in response to a remark on 'the fallen option of joy', but never mind.

Orthodoxy is full of Joy! The image of God's "Joy" is spread everywhere! However, it seems that there are only a few of His children who are able to understand or recognise this "Joy" even though God's "Joy" is staring us all in the face every day. The reason for this is that so many of us are blind, spiritually, and this is the reason why our Icons are so important to us Orthodox Christians. They are showing us this "Joy" but we fail to recognise or comprehend it; we see something different, even sombre, when we look into our Icons and those immersed in the faith and ask ourselves "Where is the joy?" This is because, as I have already said, we are blind, spiritually! We have no perception or understanding of what we are looking at. Not until we have received this gift, which is given to those who love and obey Him, as a small child would love and trust a parent to look after them in supplying all their needs.

Let us lift up our eyes and look deep into the face of our Lord Jesus Christ and all the faces of our Saints as they show themselves to us in our Icons. Our Icons are spread throughout our Church buildings and homes and their faces depict this true "Joy". But when we look at our Icons with our fallen earthbound eyes what do we see? In our blindness we fail to recognise, commune with or understand this blessed gift. This "Joy" and the journey towards it can only be received as a gift from God through communion with Him and the path to this communion can either be discovered through fervent reading of scripture, repentance, prayer, fasting and long ascetic struggle or more quickly with the help of a spiritual guide who understands these mysteries from personal experience. Unfortunately there are very few guides today to help us, many distractions and much confusion and consequently it takes a great struggle to find Him and commune. It hasn't always been this way, we have made it more difficult and complicated for ourselves. Let us all focus less on Kefi and call upon God's energies to strengthen our spiritual bodies in order for them to reign over our physical bodies and all their passions.

When we are blessed with spiritual vision we can look into our Icons and see the faces of our saints and empathise with this true "Joy" because this "Joy" is in us also and only then do we understand. It is then that we will be able to fully understand what Father Tadej and our enlightened Holy Fathers are talking to us about and what they can see through their own spiritual eyes and talk from their own experience as we will also see and understand.

In Christ, His unworthy and wicked servant,
Constantine

[Rick H.]

This is very good Constantine. I think I will be back to this thread to read your post again a few times. Thank you. And, yes we are good now. :)


This is the first icon I ever had (below). Before I decided to make the move to Orthodoxy I printed this icon off from the Greek Orthodox in America website and put it on a piece of wood that I painted black. Sometimes when I first looked at this icon I thought there was anger and displeasure looking back at me. Other times I thought there was joy and approval looking at me. Since then I think I can see how one side of the face looks stern and the other looks joyful (maybe in a 'somber joy' way as Herman has said in the other thread).

Thanks again for your comments. Welcome to our little discussion forum.

PS Do you like BBQ by any chance. ;)




http://www.goarch.org/resources/clipart/christ/christ2/image_preview (http://www.goarch.org/resources/clipart/christ/christ2/image_view_fullscreen)

[Constantine Georgiades]

http://www.goarch.org/resources/clipart/christ/christ2/image_preview (http://www.goarch.org/resources/clipart/christ/christ2/image_view_fullscreen)
My dear brother in Christ, Rick,

It is me who needs to thank you. Thank you also for sharing with me about your first Icon of Christ... Soon you will understand fully.

I have little desire to leave my cell these days, but when I do I am grateful for the blessings I receive from monachos.net and all my brothers and sisters in Christ and for the prayers of our Holy Fathers and to those who constantly remind me of my sinful nature. I constantly give thanks to God for the sacrifice of His Son for me and His mercy.

In Christ, His unworthy and wicked servant,
Constantine

[Ruth Sammons]

A totally personal anecdote, and it may be better on the "joy" thread, but it is what I am thinking of reading recent posts.

Yesterday was (for us, given the dateline) the feast of the transfiguration. To get to it (7 a.m. Liturgy) I had to leave home at 5.30. There were 4 of us there, comprising 3 nationalities. The priest and helper, the choir (one woman) and me. It is winter here.

It was wonderful. Afterwards, and before we went to share some food, the priest looked around at us and said, "we are like Peter, who was so happy he just wanted to build a hut and stay there forever" All of us had felt it. Since church on a weekday (apart from Holy Week) was a first time for me, I was profoundly moved by the kneeling of the two men, did not know if I could kneel too so didn't, but I suppose could have. Anyway, just wanted to tell you, even if it doesn't fit this thread.

Anastasia (Ruth)

[Byron Jack Gaist]

It was wonderful. Afterwards, and before we went to share some food, the priest looked around at us and said, "we are like Peter, who was so happy he just wanted to build a hut and stay there forever" All of us had felt it. Since church on a weekday (apart from Holy Week) was a first time for me, I was profoundly moved by the kneeling of the two men, did not know if I could kneel too so didn't, but I suppose could have. Anyway, just wanted to tell you, even if it doesn't fit this thread. Dear Anastasia (Ruth), thank you for sharing this beautiful experience with us, passing on some of the joy of the Transfiguration.

I'm often not entirely sure what to do in Church either. While it's good to try to find out what, and why, at the same time I hope that for the Lord it is perhaps less important where one places one's knees or head, than where one places one's heart. Having said that, I don't mean to play down the great importance of correct worship, which, when performed with sincerity, is harmony between the body and soul, and indicative of spiritual health - and given the title of this thread, probably another aspect of high spiritual 'IQ' :-).

In Christ,
Byron

[Panayota K.]

"No" There is no mention of humour in the scriptures. Laughter, yes.

What is your perception of joy?

In Christ, His unworthy and wicked servant,
Constantine


Hello Constantine. Sorry for the late answer....

For me joy is when there is so much love inside you for God that there is no room or thought for anything else. The state when you are absolutely in love with Him and feel how much He loves you too. Until God allows me to experience this, I find joy in being content and grateful for everything He gives me. In other words seeing the glass half-full. The few moments that I get this perception for life in general, I'm happy..

Now about humour I think there is no laughter without it so it must be sth God has. I've read that several Holy Fathers and Mothers used to make jokes.

Panayota

[Constantine Georgiades]

"For me joy is when there is so much love inside you for God that there is no room or thought for anything else. The state when you are absolutely in love with Him and feel how much He loves you too."

I can see where you are now...


"Until God allows me to experience this"

OK, so you are waiting for God to allow this...


"I find joy in being content and grateful for everything He gives me. In other words seeing the glass half-full. The few moments that I get this perception for life in general, I'm happy.."

This piece of scripture comes to mind here: John 5:3 "In these lay a great multitude of impotent folk, of blind, halt, withered, waiting for the moving of the water."

Thank you for explaining this to me, Panayota, I have a very different understanding of the fullness of God's "Joy".

In Christ, His unworthy servant,
Constantine

[Herman Blaydoe]

I have a very different understanding of the fullness of God's "Joy".

In Christ, His unworthy servant,
Constantine

Would you mind sharing this different understanding, that we too, may understand?

Herman the curious Pooh

[Evan]

It seems to me that there's good authority for the proposition that the most useful barometer of "spiritual progress" in growing in God's likeness is what we're doing for the brother whom we see. Such may be much more "objective" and certain measure than our often very distorted, passion-clouded subjective notions of what we "feel" about our relationship with the God Whom we do not see.

"If we be loving one another, God abideth in us, and His love is made perfect in us." (1 John 4:16).

And,

"If anyone should say, 'I love God' and be hating his brother, he is a liar; for the one not loving his brother whom he hath seen, how is he able to love God Whom He hath not seen?"
(1 John 4:20).

In the parable of the Last Judgment, Our Lord seems not to care if we feel absolutely miserable, so long as we clothe the naked and give the thirsty to drink because He became man and was naked and was thirsty and "threw in His lot" with the naked and thirsty.

In Christ,
Evan

[Constantine Georgiades]

Would you mind sharing this different understanding, that we too, may understand?

Herman the curious Pooh

My dear brother in Christ, Herman,

I am not an intellectual scholar and neither do I hold any theological qualifications to encourage me to attempt to sit down and try to describe fully my understanding or experience of fullness of God's "Joy" (if that were at all possible by anyone), I include a previous post, which describes God's "Joy" far better than I ever could.

The only thing that I can do is show you how to discover His "Joy".

Isaiah: 66.2. "But this is the man to whom I will look, he that is humble and contrite in spirit, and trembles at my word."

"The boy approached his father, gently, ‘Old man, why do you sorrow?’ The old man softened his tears:
‘Beloved, my sorrow is my joy.
Where there is no weeping, there is no rejoicing,
And he who has not sorrowed has never known delight.

‘I sorrow for the darkness that I see within,
for the depth of the divide I have cast between my mind and my heart.
I sorrow, for I have become a source of sorrow,
and if I do not weep I shall never be healed.

‘What God has blessed, I have squandered,
and therefore all the mountains weep.
Shall I yet rejoice?
See me, an aged man of squandered days,
a vessel of life confined to death — yet merry, at peace, rejoicing!

‘No, beloved, let us weep.
Let us know sorrow, for then we know ourselves, then we see.
No more in ignorance, but in truth let us walk,
acknowledging our woe, weeping with the earth.
When its sorrow is our sorrow,
then the weight shall crush my bones — and crushed, I shall be reborn.
‘Sorrow is the door, dear boy, the door of joy pure and true.

With every tear we shed, we rejoice more fully,
exist more wholly, love more purely.’

And with this, the old man’s words ceased, his mouth was still. And as the tears brimmed within his eyes, his joy radiated as the sun.

(Annon)

In Christ, His unworthy servant,
Constantine

[Byron Jack Gaist]

Dear Constantine,

Thank you for sharing the beautiful story about the old man weeping; may we come to know such depths. In my own own life I feel neither much sorrow nor much joy most of the time, just degrees of anxiety and irritation, punctuated by moments of grace, thank God.

I think your understanding of joy in sorrow is compatible with Panayiota's - to me quite remarkable and rare - experience of tranquil union. I don't think you need to be a scholar or a cleric or an intellectual to become aware of such things and be very useful to others. If pushed, I would describe myself as a sort of intellectual and "scholar", but I try to think of neither characteristic as an advantage which necessarily makes me of any use to others, and I sense the only aspect behind these labels God Himself may value, is when there is is genuine, selfless interest and wonder at the world's beauty and complexity - which may be another aspect of joy!

So go ahead and feel your joy, and please pray for us that we each may feel our joy, and that we may all come to learn more from each other's joy.

And Evan, if ever there was a quantitative measure of spiritual growth, the one you're suggesting certainly sounds a plausible candidate!

In Christ
Byron

[Constantine Georgiades]

In my own own life I feel neither much sorrow nor much joy most of the time, just degrees of anxiety and irritation, punctuated by moments of grace, thank God.


Dear Brother in Christ, Byron,

Thank you for sharing your feelings with me, I found them to be honest and humbling and they brought to mind the years that I stood in frustration at the edge of the pool (Water), which is my soul. I kept turning away from this work as there was so much to be done and some of it was invisible to my own eye and on top of all this I only had a small 'bucket' to work with. It would have taken me a lifetime to clear out all the 'dross' and 'stench' of my 'old man'. A job, at that time, I would have rather have avoided as it was painful and the thought of doing it left a bad taste in my mouth. In fact there was so much there and it was overwhelming and I wondered whether it was really necessary, so I left it. I was stuck by the side of the pool until one day I came to a realisation that I had to turn back to seek help and guidance. Fortunately there was a monk who was prepared to help me and he brought his 'bucket' and we worked together until it had all been completely cleared out. This work was then completed very quickly, with the help of the monk and God. This doesn't mean that I have stopped sinning, but dealing with this daily sin is easier to eradicate through prayer, fasting, repentance, confession in order to receive the Body and Blood of our Saviour. This lead me to humble myself before the living God who loves us all unconditionally.

It was me who had to first voluntarily deal with my greed, vanity and self importance and once I had accomplished this in some measure I then had to wait in silence in my pathetic weak state, having a clear mind and conscience for God to hone what was left of my own will in order to prepare me to serve His Will, through whatever trials He needed me to endure in order to reach some degree of humility and meekness that was acceptable to Him.

The first part was hard but the latter I accept as a real blessing. Every day I fail Him, but He never forsakes me with His love and compassion and through the Jesus prayer I am able to Commune with Him daily in the Spirit in the condition of the first Adam before the fall.

In Christ, His unworthy servant,
Constantine

[Panayota K.]

This piece of scripture comes to mind here: John 5:3 "In these lay a great multitude of impotent folk, of blind, halt, withered, waiting for the moving of the water."



Let's just hope that we are not simply sit and wait but we do sth to attract God's mercy :)

[Panayota K.]

Blessed Dormition day to everyone! May Theotokos guide us all the way to Her Son!!

What, Byron and Constintine, described are phases we all - I think- go through during our everyday struggle against our worst and old self. There is nothing I read that I can't relate to, the anxiety, the irritation, the feeling that I'm fighting a lost battle and few moments -very well put, Byron- of grace.

That brings me to another question for this spiritual test; are these phases
a)a sign that we are not yet committed to our faith, or
b)part of the procedure of spiritual growing?

[Constantine Georgiades]

That brings me to another question for this spiritual test; are these phases
a)a sign that we are not yet committed to our faith, or
b)part of the procedure of spiritual growing?

Dear Panayota,

Please forgive me for being rather blunt in my earlier response to you. I am sorry...

My humble belief is...

A) No
B) Yes and No

John 5: 5- 9

5. "Now when a certain man was there who had an infirmity thirty-eight years.
6. When Jesus saw him lying there, and knew that he already had been in that condition a long time, He said to him, "Do you want to be made well?"
7. The sick man answered Him, "Sir, I have no man to put me into the pool when the water is stirred up; but while I am coming, another steps down before me."
8. Jesus said to him, "Rise, take up your bed and walk."
9. And immediately the man was made well, took up his bed, and walked."

Jesus asked a question to provoke a response. The sick man wasn't just sitting there, he was trying to get into the pool but people and things in life kept getting in his way. This is why when we go to commune with God we have to take a voluntary action to come to Him with the body, spirit (our own spirit or self will), pure heart (clean), soul (which originally came from Him and seeks to return to Him by the Seed of His Holy Spirit through Baptism) and through faith put aside all reasoning and images and then enter the pool to Communion with Him.

In my case I had been trying to come to Christ, but I was sick in that my soul was still polluted. I had to take 'voluntary' action to do something about it and clean my heart and soul thoroughly. I had to get help to do this and then Christ came to me.

Christ came to earth and took on flesh and with suffering He died for us as the perfect man. Absolutely no sin! We have to reciprocate to Him what He did for us and come to Him, as I have already described, and through contrition take on His Body and Blood in that we can then commune with Him as Adam did before the first fall. He can't come to you if you have a stained heart or soul... You can't commune!

Once we have done all of the above, we have to keep our heart and soul clean and that is why the Jesus prayer is so important for us to keep in communion with Him ("Joy" with Him continuously).

All it means is that we need to thoroughly clean our hearts and then we see God. If we need help doing this, because we are unable to see or face all of our sins, all we need to do is ask for help from our enlightened Spiritual Fathers and God. It usually means we need to do more soul work, that's all.

In Christ, His unworthy servant,
Constantine

[Panayota K.]

(The following are a little out of the spiritual IQ test concept, sorry..)

My sf made a speech about this miracle and examined it from this point of view (and that explains the "sit and wait" comment). Jesus approached the man asked if he wanted to be well. Notice how the man didn't answer directly to the question. Instead he expressed his complain about not having someone to help him. The little detail that never bothered me before is that this man had been waiting for 38 there and for 38 whole years not one person had come to his rescue. Why? Jesus didn't pick him up by chance, that's for sure. The man must have felt inbredibly alone and probably he had sth to do with his situation. The real drama in his life wasn't his bad legs but the sickness of his soul that caused his isolation for so long. Jesus saw that and gave him the cure.

I don't know if I made my point clear but I think that basically we agree. We can't face anything alone. If God is not there to hold us we can't do much. Actually the only thing we can do is be willing to follow Him even if our steps often take us to the other direction. I think we show this intention when we admit we are overwhelmed by our sins and ask for help, as you did. And few good samaritans -thank God!- are there to help.

Panayota

[Constantine Georgiades]

I can see where you are now...

OK, so you are waiting for God to allow this...

This piece of scripture comes to mind here: John 5:3 "In these lay a great multitude of impotent folk, of blind, halt, withered, waiting for the moving of the water."

and in your last post...


The little detail that never bothered me before is that this man had been waiting for 38 there and for 38 whole years not one person had come to his rescue. Why? Jesus didn't pick him up by chance, that's for sure. The man must have felt inbredibly alone and probably he had sth to do with his situation. The real drama in his life wasn't his bad legs but the sickness of his soul that caused his isolation for so long. Jesus saw that and gave him the cure.

I don't know if I made my point clear but I think that basically we agree. We can't face anything alone. If God is not there to hold us we can't do much. Actually the only thing we can do is be willing to follow Him even if our steps often take us to the other direction. I think we show this intention when we admit we are overwhelmed by our sins and ask for help, as you did. And few good samaritans -thank God!- are there to help.

Panayota

My dear Panayota,

The reason why we have sat around the pool waiting for so many years, in the state as described above, is that until we present the pure bride, our souls, to the Bridge Groom, Christ, pure and clean, we will continue to wait and suffer by the pool. How can the Bride Groom come?

Further I.Q. Test

Should we:
a) wait until we die in the condition of the fallen 1st Adam or
b) remain by the pool, drifting in and out of Grace
c) purify our souls to receive the Bride Groom today while we still have time or
d) just say, 'it's all too much, I will wait for Judgement'.

Should we make the right choice, we will then come to learn the true fear of God, which is to have found the Bride Groom and attained this union with Him and then any thought of life without this full Communion is terrifying...

In Christ, His unworthy servant,
Constantine