Is marriage 'til death' or forever?

[Maria Murray]

I read how in Orthodoxy we believe marriage is forever and I haven't given it much thought about it until recently. Back in the days of attending an evangelical Protestant Bible study I remember being told no one will be married in heaven. Was that wrong? How do we in this light understand this scripture:

From the Gospel of St. Mark Ch. 12
22And the seven had her, and left no seed: last of all the woman died also.
23In the resurrection therefore, when they shall rise, whose wife shall she be of them? for the seven had her to wife.
24And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?
25For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.

Also, if marriage is forever, is it only forever for those married in the Orthodox church, what about those married elsewhere? Do they have a different future awaiting their marriage beyond this life? And if the spiritual state of a husband is somehow different from that of the wife, how can they be together in eternity? I am not even talking as far as heaven/hell but say a husband and wife come to the end of their lives after trying to work out their salvation still have different passions in them in different degrees. Maybe I am just totally wrong in my perception of all this.....

Many thanks.

[Elzabet]

If you continue reading that same passage you will see that "Jesus answered and said to them, “You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God. For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven." Matthew 22:29-30

[Herman Blaydoe]

and the Holy Apostle Paul tells us:

Romans 7:1-3 (New King James Version) Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives? For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband. So then if, while her husband lives, she marries another man, she will be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from that law, so that she is no adulteress, though she has married another man.Of course, the Apostle Paul is actually making reference to the death/rebirth of baptism in Christ, but again it shows that marriage is not "forever" but certainly "for life". In fact, in another place he argues that widows SHOULD remarry if they cannot resist "sin". Perhaps it is better to THINK of marriage as a "forever" in terms of commitment, certainly in this life, the better to make people think seriously about what they are doing when they are deciding to marry, because you are certainly choosing your partner in working out your mutual salvation "...for as long as you BOTH shall live..."

[Andreas Moran]

In the Orthodox Church, marriage after the death of one's spouse is certainly acceptable. (A third marriage must be exceptional.) Of course, one must be guided by one's spiritual father. A widower or widow is in no sense married but our human nature is such that we remember our departed loved ones as they were when with us. The bond of love is never broken, and in that sense, there is a 'forever' dimension to marriage, certainly to one sanctified by marriage in church. I know that Kathryn, my late first wife, is not my wife but I have no doubt that there is a bond of love between us which is forever. It's just that the relationship is different. I pray to her for help just as I would pray to a saint to whom I felt close. (Happily, my wife honours Kathryn's memory and is often the one who buys flowers for her grave (which is next to the monastery).)

As to whether spouses and other close relatives can hope to be in the same 'place' after death despite differing spiritual conditions, I don't know, though I am mindful of what Christ says in Luke 17:34-36 about those who, though they be in close proximity (even in the same bed), will find that one is taken and the other left.

One thing I would say. Married couples who become Orthodox should have a marriage in the Orthodox Church, even if they had some other church wedding originally. After Kathryn's baptism, we had an Orthodox marriage, and in my experience, it makes a difference.

In Christ,

Andreas.

[Paul Cowan]

I read how in Orthodoxy we believe marriage is forever and I haven't given it much thought about it until recently. Back in the days of attending an evangelical Protestant Bible study I remember being told no one will be married in heaven. Was that wrong? How do we in this light understand this scripture:

From the Gospel of St. Mark Ch. 12
22And the seven had her, and left no seed: last of all the woman died also.
23In the resurrection therefore, when they shall rise, whose wife shall she be of them? for the seven had her to wife.
24And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?
25For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.

Also, if marriage is forever, is it only forever for those married in the Orthodox church, what about those married elsewhere? Do they have a different future awaiting their marriage beyond this life? And if the spiritual state of a husband is somehow different from that of the wife, how can they be together in eternity? I am not even talking as far as heaven/hell but say a husband and wife come to the end of their lives after trying to work out their salvation still have different passions in them in different degrees. Maybe I am just totally wrong in my perception of all this.....

Many thanks.

I am hoping to get more insight to what Maria was asking. In talking to my priest, he says (paraphrasing) that we are not under a contract in marriage like the nonbelievers. " until death do us part". Marriage is not a contract but an eternal union.


25For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven. [/I]

Marriage is for the mortal body. We are to be married to our Heavenly Bridegroom in Heaven. So my questions are,

1) will I know my wife in heaven?
2) will we be together worshipping God?
3) will we just be among the masses up there?
4) will we even care the other is there with all our other "duties"?

If the purpose of marriage here is to keep us from sin and to make babies, how does our marriage not become contractual 'until death do us part' in heaven? What relevence does marriage even have in Heaven?

I am sure I have more to ask, but my brain is fuzzy right now. Thanks for your patience.

Paul

[Andrew]

I am hoping to get more insight to what Maria was asking. In talking to my priest, he says (paraphrasing) that we are not under a contract in marriage like the nonbelievers. " until death do us part". Marriage is not a contract but an eternal union.



Marriage is for the mortal body. We are to be married to our Heavenly Bridegroom in Heaven. So my questions are,

1) will I know my wife in heaven?
2) will we be together worshipping God?
3) will we just be among the masses up there?
4) will we even care the other is there with all our other "duties"?

If the purpose of marriage here is to keep us from sin and to make babies, how does our marriage not become contractual 'until death do us part' in heaven? What relevence does marriage even have in Heaven?

I am sure I have more to ask, but my brain is fuzzy right now. Thanks for your patience.

Paul

Heaven is communion with God. Marriage is a mutual martyrdom aimed at bringing both people into the Life of Christ. Heaven can be tasted on Earth, in this life, in communion with Our Lord... "We are seated in heavenly places."

The purpose of marriage is not just to keep us from sin and for procreation... sinless people that were abstinent entered into marriage, like Saint John of Kronstadt. Marriage in the Orthodox Church does not require sexual relations or children... it is a path of salvation, just as monasticism is. Now, sex is normal and blessed in marriage, but that is not the point for marriage. The point is the transfiguration of a man and his wife through self emptying, growing in grace, and living in communion with eachother and with the Holy Trinity. Everything we do here right now matters, and will continue on with us into the coming age of the resurrection. Everything that defines us as a person will not be erased, but will be fulfilled in Christ. Or so this is what my spiritual father has taught me, and what I have been pondering as I come closer to being wed to my fiance.

I'm sure others will have more helpful things to say... especially the priests who wed the faithful in Holy Matrimony! :)

[Olga]

The idea that marriage continues in the heavenly life in a way comparable to earthly life is one of the major doctrines of the sect known variously as The New Church, the New Church of Jerusalem, and the Swedenborgians. Other quasi-christian sects may hold similar beliefs. Such beliefs seem quite alien to Orthodoxy.

On the other hand, Andreas's post on the relationship between the living spouse and the departed one fits in well with what widowed family and friends (both who have and who have not remarried after being widowed) have told me about their experiences. Similar experiences are also often the case in people who have lost a close family member (parent, brother, sister, etc). But to regard such experiences as indicative of marriages continuing in heaven seems to me to be drawing too long a bow.

[Mourad Mankarios]

How could such a great love come to an end or what God of love would put an end to it since it was this communion of love that brought the two to the ultimate love which is God...

Earthly marriage is perhaps the beginning and a precursor of the heavenly marriage to Christ and to all the saints in Christ...

There's no doubt that we will know each other in heaven just as the rich man knew Lazarus and Elijah and Moses were known in the transfiguration and so also marital life would not stop nor would it continue as it is but it would be transfigured and transcend any of the human notions of such relations...

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

There is in marriage an ambiguity due to the Fall that we find in many human relationships. On the one hand there is an exclusivity to these relationships which speaks of the Fall. But on the other hand there is the potential that such relationships can become models of that love which we would show to all if we could. Within the sacrament of marriage even exclusivity can become a kind of faithfulness.

Nevertheless marriage as we know this now is not the final stage of human relationship which Christ wishes for us. As Christ says, "For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven." (Mt. 22:30). So in the Kingdom all human relationships will expand beyond the limits which they presently only can prefigure to that of a spiritual marriage or communion between Christ and all the saints.

Once again then as with so much in the Church this isn't a question that has an either/or answer- will there be something exactly like marriage or something radically different?

No- marriage as blessed by the Church is meant to prefigure the kind of communion with all which lies ahead of us if we grow in Christ. This means then that marriage as we presently know it is not yet complete & that it is only a beginning as with the other relationships which the Church blesses such as monasticism. Such relationships are worthy and blessed- but they are only the beginning.

So will you be married still to your spouse in that later time? Yes; just like we will still know our own family members, brothers & sisters & friends. But we will know them in a way which stretches the limits of what human relationships presently are to become communion with all of Christ's Body.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Father David Moser]

No- marriage as blessed by the Church is meant to prefigure the kind of communion with all which lies ahead of us if we grow in Christ. This means then that marriage as we presently know it is not yet complete & that it is only a beginning as with the other relationships which the Church blesses such as monasticism. Such relationships are worthy and blessed- but they are only the beginning.... But we will know them in a way which stretches the limits of what human relationships presently are to become communion with all of Christ's Body.


Fr Raphael touches on a very important truth about all of the sacraments. They are a foretaste of the heavenly glory. When we receive the Most Holy Body and Most Precious Blood of our Lord, that is the moment of the most complete and intimate communion with Him that we can possibly experience - and yet it is only a shadow, only a reflection in a dark mirror (to paraphrase the Apostle) of the intimate communion that we will experience in the Kingdom of God. In Marriage, the two become one - it is (or should be) the most intimate growing together possible for two people. Marriage is an image of the life in the Kingdom of God - but we share that intimate union not only with one other person, but with the whole of the Body of Christ. Thus, in the Kingdom of God, yes we remain married, but we also experience that personal unity with each and every one of the saints, the members of the Body of Christ. Marriage is only a shadow, seen in a dark mirror of the true state of our intimate unity with one another in Christ.

In that light, I think the answer to the above asked questions is YES, YES, YES, YES but the real answer is so wonderful that it is beyond expression and even beyond our ability to comprehend.

Fr David Moser

[John Charmley]

Dear Fr. David,

Thank you for a wonderful post; it contains so much wisdom and commonsense and insight; your flock are indeed fortunate in their shepherd. I have never seen this put more concisely or with more depth and humility; very many thanks.

In Christ,

John

[Nina]

Dear Fr. David,

Thank you for a wonderful post; it contains so much wisdom and commonsense and insight; your flock are indeed fortunate in their shepherd. I have never seen this put more concisely or with more depth and humility; very many thanks.

In Christ,

John

Please let me 2nd that. Both Father David and Father Raphael, explained it perfectly. I like their way very much also!

[Paul Cowan]

Thank you all for the understanding. It also answers my other selfish concern, Will I also be married to my ex in Heaven sitting beside my present wife?

Answer:
Marriage is an image of the life in the Kingdom of God - but we share that intimate union not only with one other person, but with the whole of the Body of Christ. Thus, in the Kingdom of God, yes we remain married, but we also experience that personal unity with each and every one of the saints, the members of the Body of Christ. Marriage is only a shadow, seen in a dark mirror of the true state of our intimate unity with one another in Christ.


Graciously,

Paul

[Nektarios]

This issue is confusing me. In the book by John Mack "Preserve Us O Lord" It says that the sacrament of marriage is indeed eternal. Then there are the scriptural passages above. I don't understand, is marriage eternal or not? I am sure there is a logical Orthodox opinion but I don't know what to believe, right now.

[Herman Blaydoe]

Did you read through the thread? Several opinions have been put forward.

[Kosta]

Ive never across any Church Father that have said the marriage bond is eternal, have read some quotes from the Fathers that say the exact opposite. It seems to be modern folklore to me, especially in the light that Orthodoxy has always allowed for divorce. Of those that say the marriage bond is eternal they have never produced any liturgical text or teachings of the Fathers to substantiate this claim.

[Nektarios]

Did you read through the thread? Several opinions have been put forward.

I read through the thread, I am just wondering what the Church says.

In Christ
Nektarios

[Nina]

I read through the thread, I am just wondering what the Church says.

In Christ
Nektarios

I will look for the thread we have discussed this here and to a great extent. Also there are passages from the Church Fathers we copied to that thread. I have the book but it is a lot of work to type these things again if those are already here.

Kosta wrote:


Ive never across any Church Father that have said the marriage bond is eternal, have read some quotes from the Fathers that say the exact opposite. It seems to be modern folklore to me, especially in the light that Orthodoxy has always allowed for divorce. Of those that say the marriage bond is eternal they have never produced any liturgical text or teachings of the Fathers to substantiate this claim.

Ha ha ha Kosta I remember this anxiety you had about the thought of marriage being eternal, from the other thread. Maybe it is the theory of some highly possessive women. lol

[Nina]

Found the thread. Actually this thread was linked there :)

Here is the link for the related thread: Marriage in the afterlife (http://www.monachos.net/forum/showthread.php?4636-Marriage-in-the-afterlife)