What if you don't want children?

[M.D. Law]

Since I couldn't figure where else to post this..... My husband and I have been married for almost six years. I'm Orthodox, he's Lutheran (Missouri Synod) but converting. We are not interested in having children. Before I married, I discussed my disinterest in having children with my priest at my original church. He was understanding and opined that the church would never insist that people that didn't want kids have them anyway. Is this the universal thought? I'm curious if we're going to run into some negative comments at our new church by never having kids.

[Paul Cowan]

I'm curious if we're going to run into some negative comments at our new church by never having kids.


My wife and I have been married 8 1/2 years. We decided not to have children before we married. She had a hysterectomy to cure her anemia 3 years after we were married. Many people we have run into have asked us about having children and even though we have talked about it (very briefly) we still do not desire it. Perhaps because we do not consider ourselves mature enough children to have children? (38 & 40 yrs old)

That said when people ask, we politely say we are not havng children or it's not in the cards for us (or some other brush off). When they persist, we say, we can't have children. They then say "well, you can always adopt. " I think the "old Country" folks see marriage as only for the purpose of having children and growing the Family. Some think it is selfish for us not to want kids.

Regardless of the reasons or rebuttals, after the first discussion and confirmation to them we are not wishy washy on the subject, they accept our position and don't ask again. I think many people see a young couple childless as an oddity closing on abomination. I see it as as making an adult decision to not bring a child into the world when we probably could not care for it as others might be able to.

Some are called to be parents, some are called to be God-parents.

Hope this helps

Paul

[Andreas Moran]

Kathryn and I didn't have children for exactly the same reason as Paul. When Lydia and I asked Father Zacharias about children (we didn't want them - there is quite an age gap) he said, 'it's better - stay as you are.'

[John Charmley]

Dear Mrs. Law,

Not sure it is any one's business save your own. Procreation was only one of the things for which marriage was instituted, and your priest sounds a wise man in what he said. No doubt there will be those (just because there always seem to be) who have a 'view' on this, but since they could not be sure whether you are childless by choice or circumstance, perhaps they could find sufficient charity to keep quiet?

As long as you and your husband cherish each other and live the Christian life as best you can, that is what matters.

Today, in the Coptic calendar, is celebrated the Dormition of Our Lady, the Virgin Mary, the Theotokos, and in many years of marriage to St. Joseph, they had no children together; so let us bear in mind the other benefits the blessed couple bestowed upon each other.

In Christ,

John

[Nina]

Today, in the Coptic calendar, is celebrated the Dormition of Our Lady, the Virgin Mary, the Theotokos, and in many years of marriage to St. Joseph, they had no children together; so let us bear in mind the other benefits the blessed couple bestowed upon each other.



Dear John,

I do not want to sound smart, or anything similar, however just for the record: Virgin Mary was never married (thus no marital relations existed), she was only engaged to St. Joseph, hence the St. Joseph the Betrothed name for him, and what is most important, the Virgin Mary name for Her, since She was and remained a Virgin throughout Her earthly life.

[John Charmley]

Dear John,

I do not want to sound smart, or anything similar, however just for the record: Virgin Mary was never married (thus no marital relations existed), she was only engaged to St. Joseph, hence the St. Joseph the Betrothed name for him, and what is most important, the Virgin Mary name for Her, since She was and remained a Virgin throughout Her earthly life.
Dear Nina,

very many thanks for the correction, although I note that the Catholic Encyclopedia (from which I probably get too much information!) has this:

It is probably at Nazareth that Joseph betrothed and married her who was to become the Mother of God. When the marriage took place, whether before or after the Incarnation, is no easy matter to settle, and on this point the masters of exegesis have at all times been at variance. Most modern commentators, following the footsteps of St. Thomas, understand that, at the epoch of the Annunciation, the Blessed Virgin was only affianced to Joseph; as St. Thomas notices, this interpretation suits better all the evangelical data.

All very baffling, but I am sure someone will explain it to me so it makes sense.

Pope Shenouda III's explanation for the use of the word 'wife' I like:

The phrase ‘his wife’ was used before and after the
conception so that the Jews would not stone the Virgin Mary
because she conceived a Child while she was not a man's wife.
But after giving birth to Christ, the Divine Inspiration did not
use that expression; not in the angel's words to Joseph, nor in
describing what Joseph did, nor in talking about the Magi, of
whom the Holy Bible says: “And when they had come into the
house, they saw the young Child with Mary His mother”
(Matt.2: 11), nor in talking about the shepherds who “found
Mary and Joseph, and the Babe lying in a manger” (Lk.2: 16).

So, once again, thank you for the correction.

In Christ,
John

[Herman Blaydoe]

All I know is that grandchildren are absolutely worth having children for. In fact, I am convinced that grandchildren are God's reward for allowing your own children to live.

FWIW.

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[Nina]

Dear John,

Yes, there are many sources and yes, for Virgin Mary's protection and later for the Divine Infant's protection, a term (marriage) socially accepted was used, so their situation would also be socially accepted and they would not risk punishment since it was against the Law to have children out of wedlock. St. Joseph was also called the Protector. However, regardless of the term, they never lived as husband and wife.

Let me put it this way. We can not apply the example of the Virgin Mary as long as we know that the couple we are talking about has marital (sexual) relations. However if the couple does not have those relations, then we can apply the example of the Virgin Mary and also that of several married saints' who agreed to cohabit with their spouses as brothers and sisters.

Dear MDLaw,

Frankly, I think that you should not worry whether people at your new parish will accept your choices or not (why should they know anyway?). However if you do run into judgment do not worry about it (there are heavenly rewards for those who endure judgment). Since you asked if what you heard is the universal thought - worry only what God will think and please get the appropriate information in your particular situation. This is delicate. The best in this case is to talk to a spiritual father (one, who knows you very well spiritually and as a person - illnesses, ability, reasons, will etc). Only he, through divine inspiration can appropriately advise you (like Andreas did explain in his case).

Dear Herman,
What you say reminded me of what my grandparents used to say for us, their grandchildren. And my mom who just passed away in a young age told me that she regrets that she will depart without tasting the joy of being a grandmother.
P.S Your disclaimer is funny :)

[Rose]

I think that having children is a very, very personal decision, and while I cannot imagine my life without my children, being a parent is not for everyone. Don't worry too much about what other people think or say.

[Nina]

Dear John,

Since we discussed about the Virgin Mary and since today we commemorate St. Simeon the God-Receiver, I am posting something which I received by email from a friend.

It is interesting because one detail here that has to do with the word "virgin" is the core of our belief for the Virgin Mary and decided the plot of the future life of St. Simeon.

I was very happy to learn that St. Simeon was one of the translators of the Septuagint. I did not know this info before and wanted to share it with you. :)

"Holy and Righteous Simeon the God-Receiver

Righteous Simeon the God-Receiver was, according to the testimony of the holy Evangelist Luke, a just and devout man waiting for the consolation of Israel, and the Holy Spirit was upon him (Luke 2:25). God promised him that he would not die until the promised Messiah, Christ the Lord, came into the world.

Ancient historians tell us that the Egyptian pharaoh Ptolemy II Philadelphus (285-247 B.C.) wished to include texts of Holy Scripture in the famous Library at Alexandria. He invited scholars from Jerusalem, and the Sanhedrin sent their wise men. The Righteous Simeon was one of the seventy scholars who came to Alexandria to translate the Holy Scriptures into Greek. The completed work was called "The Septuagint," and is the version of the Old Testament used by the Orthodox Church.

St Simeon was translating a book of the Prophet Isaiah, and read the words: "Behold, a virgin shall conceive in the womb, and shall bring forth a Son" (Is 7:14). He thought that "virgin" was inaccurate, and he wanted to correct the text to read "woman." At that moment an angel appeared to him and held back his hand saying, "You shall see these words fulfilled. You shall not die until you behold Christ the Lord born of a pure and spotless Virgin."

From this day, St Simeon lived in expectation of the Promised Messiah. One day, the righteous Elder received a revelation from the Holy Spirit, and came to the Temple. It was on the very day (the fortieth after the Birth of Christ) when the All-Pure Virgin Mary and St Joseph had come to the Temple in order to perform the ritual prescribed by Jewish Law.

When St Simeon beheld their arrival, the Holy Spirit revealed to him that the divine Child held by the All-Pure Virgin Mary was the Promised Messiah, the Savior of the world. The Elder took the Child in his arms and said, "Lord, now lettest Thou Thy servant depart in peace, according to Thy word, for mine eyes have seen Thy salvation, which Thou hast prepared before the face of all people, a light to enlighten the Gentiles, and the glory of Thy people Israel" (Luke 2:29-32).

There is a Christian epigram (Number 46) in THE GREEK ANTHOLOGY which is addressed to St Simeon. It tells the righteous Elder to receive the Child Who was born before Adam, and Who will deliver Simeon from this life and bring him to eternal life. A similar idea is expressed in the Aposticha (Slavic use) for the Forefeast of the Nativity of the Lord (December 24). There the Mother of God refers to her Son as "older than ancient Adam."

Simeon blessed the All-Pure Virgin and St Joseph, and turning to the Mother of God he said, "Behold, this child is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel, and for a sign which shall be spoken against. Yea, a sword shall pierce through your own soul also, that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed" (Luke 2:34-35).

The holy Evangelist continues: "And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel of the tribe of Aser. She was of a great age, and had lived with a husband for seven years from her virginity; and she was a widow of about eighty-four years, who did not leave the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers night and day. And coming at that very hour, also gave thanks to the Lord, and spoke of Him to all those who looked for redemption at Jerusalem" (Luke 2:36-38).

The holy righteous Simeon the God-Receiver died at a great age (Tradition says he was 360). His holy relics were transferred to Constantinople in the sixth century. His grave was seen by the Russian pilgrim St Anthony, the future Archbishop of Novgorod (October 8) in 1200."

[Peter Farrington]

I thought this was an interesting tradition, and not one I had come across in the West before, so I went digging a bit and discovered that this same tradition is found in the Coptic Orthodox Synaxarium, whic suggests that it is a very early tradition indeed.


On this day we celebrate the feast of presenting the Lord Christ to the temple after 40 days of His blessed birth. St. Joseph the righteous and His mother, the Virgin Mary, presented Him in the temple, to fulfill the Mosaic Law. St. Luke the Evangelist says that when His parents brought Him according to the custom of the law, the just and devout Simeon the elder took Him in his arms and blessed God and said, "Lord, now You are letting Your servant depart in peace, according to Your Word; for my eyes have seen Your salvation which You have prepared before the face of all people, a light to bring revelation to the Gentiles, and the Glory of Your people Israel." (Luke 2:29-32) Simeon was one of the 70 elders who translated the Old Testament from Hebrew to Greek. This was in the time of Ptolemy Soter in the year 296 B.C., who was sent by the will of God to Jerusalem. He brought 70 men from among the learned Jewish teachers and scholars and commanded them to translate the Old Testament from Hebrew to Greek. He put every two of them in an isolated place so they would not agree on one translation, and to ensure a correct text after comparing all of the translations. Simeon the elder was one of them. When Simeon was translating the verse from Isaiah 7:14, "Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel," he was afraid to translate that a virgin would conceive, because the King would mock him. He wanted to translate the virgin as a "young lady. He was disturbed because of this inaccurate translation, and God revealed to him in a vision that he would not die before he would see Christ the Lord born of a virgin. This was fulfilled and he lived about three hundred years. When Christ was born; he was very well advanced in age and his sight dimmed. When he carried the child Jesus in his hands, his sight came back to him, and the Holy Spirit told him, "This is the child that you have been waiting for." He blessed God and said, "You are letting Your servant depart in peace according to Your Word, for my eyes have seen Your salvation which You have prepared before the face of all peoples, a light to bring revelation to the Gentiles and the Glory of Your people Israel." (Luke 2:28-32) The prayers of this righteous man be with us, and Glory be to our God forever. Amen.

[Nina]

To MDLaw,
Please read this article from V. Rev. Josiah Trenham, Ph.D. :

http://orthodoxytoday.org/articles5/TrenhamSexuality.php