Fasting from water and singing

[Audrey]

I want to ask about fasting from water beginning at midnight before the Sunday morning Eucharist, and singing in the church choir. I sing in my church choir and am a recent convert to Orthodoxy. It has been very challenging for me to attempt to fast from water due to singing in the choir. My throat became sore while singing when I attempted it. Has anyone else experienced this? I would love some thoughts and encouragement about how to think about putting these two things together. I have heard that fasting is not a "law" or legalistic thing in the church, and yet it seems to me that it is indeed a law, if I have to confess when I don't fast from water. Thanks for the feedback.

[Sunny]

Greetings Audrey!
I would also like to have information on this. Please Fathers and monastics could you weigh in on this?
Is it indeed true that we are supposed to fast from water before communion? I sang in our choir for awhile, and many had bottles of water with them. We live in the desert so you can dehydrate, but so did the desert fathers. If our priests give us a dispensation to drink water is it then allowed?
Thank you,
Sunny

[Herman Blaydoe]

Whatever YOUR bishop/priest says should suffice, I think. As a cantor myself, I have seen guidance from certain bishops that specifically says singing in the choir is not sufficient justification to break the fast with water, but I have also seen priests who take a swig from a water bottle prior to communion. Some jurisdictions are more strict in this regard than others.

I try not to drink before hand, but the congregation has to put up with me croaking from time to time. Helps keep me humble I suppose....and I certainly need all the help I can get in that regard.

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[John Charmley]

Dear Herman,

Indeed, we should take the advice of our priest on this.

Mind you, in my old Anglican Church, there were those who thought (rightly) that my abstaining from singing deprived them of a penitential experience!

In Christ,

John

[Elena]

Singing in the morning with nothing to eat or drink can be very taxing. I personally gave up on this after I nearly fainted in church and had to leave, when I was outside I was so thirsty I actually (I wish you could say things quietly on the internet) drank from a puddle. If nothing else will show ones weakness drinking muddy water will.

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear Herman,

Indeed, we should take the advice of our priest on this.

Mind you, in my old Anglican Church, there were those who thought (rightly) that my abstaining from singing deprived them of a penitential experience!

In Christ,

John

I have to admit I did a double take when I saw the title to this thread, "fasting from water & singing." I've sure heard of the first; probably those who have heard my singing wished there was a strict rule about the second.

Anyway, yes we must do a total fast from midnight, including water, especially if we intend to partake of Communion.

In some churches however it is not out of the ordinary to see the singers at the kliros drinking a little water, but of course those who wish to receive communion would never do this. (in Russia I was at a Vigil where the singer's kliros had a boiling pot of water going. Singers had a choice of tea or water with a little wine in it.)

But as everyone else is saying here- talk to your priest about this.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Nina]

How about brushing our teeth? What is the rule if someone will receive Holy Communion?

[Herman Blaydoe]

How about brushing our teeth? What is the rule if someone will receive Holy Communion?

Once again, it depends. Many people do not brush their teeth if they are receiving communion. Some jurisdictions say it is OK as long as nothing is swallowed. Your bishop's rule might not be my bishop's rule. When in doubt, ask your priest! I would go so far as to say that any opportunity to have a personal one-on-one dialog with YOUR flesh and blood priest is better than any advice from an impersonal internet poster! Too many people do not have enough regular interaction with their own priests (and certainly bishops) for a lot of reasons I guess. To a point, I think more is better (unless you start dominating his time and keeping him from others, but that is HIS responsibility to call. Let us not deny him the opportunity to pursue his ministry as shepherd).

FWIW from an arbitrary internet poster.

[Nina]

Once again, it depends. Many people do not brush their teeth if they are receiving communion. Some jurisdictions say it is OK as long as nothing is swallowed. Your bishop's rule might not be my bishop's rule. When in doubt, ask your priest! I would go so far as to say that any opportunity to have a personal one-on-one dialog with YOUR flesh and blood priest is better than any advice from an impersonal internet poster! Too many people do not have enough regular interaction with their own priests (and certainly bishops) for a lot of reasons I guess. To a point, I think more is better (unless you start dominating his time and keeping him from others, but that is HIS responsibility to call. Let us not deny him the opportunity to pursue his ministry as shepherd).

FWIW from an arbitrary internet poster.

Thank you Herman! Yes, I know. I actually recommend to others here, when I reply, to talk with their spiritual father (or priest/bishop as you say). I know what my spiritual father says about this, however since I read this post I wanted to know what other attitudes are out there.

[Herman Blaydoe]

You are welcome. There are many attitudes out there, from a variety of traditions, not all of which are necessarily compatible. For example there are the conflicting traditions of frequent vs. infrequent communion. The preparation expected within the infrequent communion tradition is much more demanding than that encouraging frequent communion. The requirements themselves discourage frequent communion: always confession immediately prior, fasting for up to three DAYS prior (in some traditions), required attendance at Vespers the night before, and so on. Of course, frequent communion has to make its own assumptions about how people who practice it conduct themselves on a "regular" basis as well. How well a priest is able to encourage his flock to meet a requirement given their particular parish circumstances HAS TO BE a pastoral matter that takes many factors into consideration as approved by the particular bishop.

[Audrey]

It has been great to get so much feedback.

I'm puzzled by how on the one hand it is a rule (canon?) to abstain from water from midnight before Sunday morning eucharist, but how on the other hand one's spiritual father can give dispensations. This would mean that one's practice depends on the spiritual father one happens to have. One priest I had in the past was more lenient than another priest I have had. It seems arbitrary to me. Speaking of this, can someone tell me when this rule originated? Also, is drinking water sunday morning a sin one must bring to confession? Is there any room for following one's conscience in this matter?

I would love encouragement from anyone who sings in the choir and has been able to succesfully fast from water without damaging his/her voice. Testimonials like that would be very helpful for me, because currently I am still used to thinking that one needs to drink water soon before, and during, singing. My voice teacher always had me drink water before and/or during my voice lessons. I want to have a better attitude and better intentions regarding the water fast. Thanks for any feedback from anyone who can encourage me in this.

[Herman Blaydoe]

The practice of ascriva and economia are well known in the Church. There is a time for scrictness and there are times for leniency, in order to save a particular soul. Two different doctors may well come up with different treatments for the same illness, or one doctor may take two different tacts with two patients with the same illness, depending on their circumstances. Should a priest or bishop be different?

Canon means GUIDE. It recognizes that often one size does NOT fit all. The canon must be used by a discerning priest like a ruler or curve is used by a trained artisan. Used correctly, it creates beauty and order, used inappropriately it creates ugliness and chaos.

We are not talking about preserving voices, we are talking about preserving souls. As a cantor in the Carpatho-Russian tradition, my voice leads the congregation, I don't get many breaks during the service. If I plan on taking communion I keep a complete fast which includes water. Sometimes I sound a bit hoarse by the end of the Liturgy, and sometimes I "croak".

[Elena]

I would love encouragement from anyone who sings in the choir and has been able to succesfully fast from water without damaging his/her voice. Testimonials like that would be very helpful for me, because currently I am still used to thinking that one needs to drink water soon before, and during, singing. My voice teacher always had me drink water before and/or during my voice lessons. I want to have a better attitude and better intentions regarding the water fast. Thanks for any feedback from anyone who can encourage me in this.

Dear Audrey,

I managed to fast from water without damaging my voice. I would drink a great deal the night before and sleep with the window open or a damp towel on the radiator outside my room. Unfortunatly I have low blood pressure which when combined with no water for twelve hours, standing for at least two and the effort of singing tended to result in fainting. This was why (after the particularly humiliating occassion I shared earlier) I began to drink water in the mornings.

Like you when singing outside church I drink water to help my voice, but I don't feel it has suffered from the occassions when I sing and don't. Sometimes I have to sing more quietly that I might otherwise, but that is excellent practise for ones support.

[Audrey]

Thanks for the encouragement; it gives me hope that I can succeed in fasting from water while singing in the choir. I am going to attempt it this weekend and keep in mind all those who are doing the same thing.

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Thanks for the encouragement; it gives me hope that I can succeed in fasting from water while singing in the choir. I am going to attempt it this weekend and keep in mind all those who are doing the same thing.

It may be helpful to keep in mind that the serving bishop(s), priest(s) and deacon(s) also always serve without eating or drinking anything before Liturgy.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Robin Elizabeth]

I was a convert of several years before I heard anything about fasting from water. I read about it but to this day I've never heard a priest anywhere ever mention it. I don't know anyone in a choir that goes without water if they feel the need for it, in fact the priest at my parish told the choir to keep water bottles with them.

I think that since singing with a dry throat can damage your vocal chords that allowances should be made. The point of fasting is not to hurt yourself.

[Robin Elizabeth]

I am still used to thinking that one needs to drink water soon before, and during, singing. My voice teacher always had me drink water before and/or during my voice lessons.

Actually as far as your body is concerned you do need water before and during singing - especially before. There is a reason voice teachers have you drink during lessons. It's because your vocal chords dehydrate much sooner than the rest of your body and singing when your chords are dry is very damaging to them.

[Herman Blaydoe]

The point of fasting is not to hurt yourself.

Well, actually that is not the point at all. If you break the fast, you don't commune that particular service. Or if you plan to commune and cannot sing "dry", then don't sing.

[Robin Elizabeth]

Sometimes I sound a bit hoarse by the end of the Liturgy, and sometimes I "croak".

Not to be a drudge or anything, but this means that at the least your vocal chords are swollen and inflamed. Hoarseness, croaking, or squeaking especially on high notes is actually one of the diagnostic indicators of vocal nodes, which can keep you from singing at all.

[Robin Elizabeth]

No one should ever sing "dry". The human body is not designed to function vocally without hydration. Most people can force a dry voice to produce sound, but it is unhealthy and damaging to do this.

[Robin Elizabeth]

Just to clarify things a bit. What constitutes "fasting" for anyone is between them, their priest, and God. I don't believe that God wants us to hurt ourselves. Singing dry does hurt your body. So my personal opinion is that if you and your priest decide that water needs to be included in your fast (for whatever reason), then you shouldn't sing.

[Theodora E.]

I've found that gargling water and vigorously rinsing my mouth out - NOT swallowing - helps a great deal with that dry cotton mouth. Dry throat isn't a problem for me - but dry mouth is. We've got adult ed before church and I've been known to do this in the bathroom before going into church, especially if I'm serving as reader that morning, which means the Hours, the Epistle, and post-Communion prayers, in addition to 90 minutes of singing in the choir.

[Herman Blaydoe]

I have been fasting and singing for decades, and the Church has been doing it for centuries. So what is the problem, exactly?

[Theodora E.]

I have been fasting and singing for decades, and the Church has been doing it for centuries. So what is the problem, exactly?

I'm not quite sure, myself. I have problems only occasionally. I've been at parishes where a pitcher of water and cups were openly set out for the choir during Liturgy or you could see choir folks openly swigging from water bottles during Divine Liturgy. If they need to do it and have the priest's/bishop's blessing to do it, perhaps they could be a bit more discreet.

Fr. Raphael's description of the Vigil where a kettle was going for tea for the choir intrigued me!

[Herman Blaydoe]

There is no communion or reason for fasting for Vigil. A sip or two during a long non-communion service would certainly be permissible if necessary. In this day and age and culture I think we put far too much emphasis on comfort and convenience. Medical issues are one thing and certainly need to be discussed with a priest. Mere discomfort is something else entirely.

Or so it seems to this bear of little brain.

Herman the singing Pooh

[Father David Moser]

The traditional fast before receiving the Holy Mysteries is to abstain from all food and drink from midnight before. We should all strive to keep this fast as we have the strength. For those who have a particular need to consume water or even food for various reasons before receiving, the priest can give a blessing to do so. The absolute fast is the rule which we have been given by our fathers - however it is also necessary to remember that God is merciful and does not desire our destruction. With that in mind remember also that everything must be done decently and in order - that means we do not vary from the accepted practice of the Church on our own whim and without the blessing of our spiritual father.

Fr David Moser

[Robin Elizabeth]

Hello Father,

It's interesting to me that the tradition of the church is from food and drink, and yet no priest in the almost 10 years I've been Orthodox has ever mentioned the part about drink to me. I wonder if there is a difference between the jurisdictions on how they view this.

[Paul Cowan]

I wonder if there is a difference between the jurisdictions on how they view this.

Not from the Antiochian side of the house.

[Father David Moser]

Hello Father,

It's interesting to me that the tradition of the church is from food and drink, and yet no priest in the almost 10 years I've been Orthodox has ever mentioned the part about drink to me. I wonder if there is a difference between the jurisdictions on how they view this.

I was baptized in the OCA, I was catechized by a GOA priest and a priest from the Antiochian Church (it was a long period of inquiry) as well. I have been a clergyman in both ROCOR and in the OCA. Throughout all my experience in Orthodoxy (30+ years now) this has always been a consistent practice. All I can say is that your experience and mine must have been different.

Fr David Moser

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

I was baptized in the OCA, I was catechized by a GOA priest and a priest from the Antiochian Church (it was a long period of inquiry) as well. I have been a clergyman in both ROCOR and in the OCA. Throughout all my experience in Orthodoxy (30+ years now) this has always been a consistent practice. All I can say is that your experience and mine must have been different.

Fr David Moser

What Fr David wrote especially in his post 26 is also exactly what I was taught both in the OCA and ROCOR.

Speaking in general- since that's what we do here- we should all strive our best to keep to the rule of no food or drink (and no cigarettes either) from midnight on before receiving Holy Communion. The only exception to this should be due to pressing illness and absolute need to take medication. This aids us in approaching the Sacrament with a properly prepared and reverent spirit.

Concerning the self sacrifice this necessarily involves. We must always approach this in a positive way as something which yields rich spiritual fruit. If approached in this way then the suffering of self sacrifice is also perceived and felt by our heart in a positive way.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Niko T.]

It can be very difficult to chant without drinking water before taking Holy Communion. However, if one is doing this to praise God and in obedience to a spiritual father's wishes, he or she will have divine help. The goal is not necessarily to be in perfect vocal form, but to praise and sacrifice for God.

But I would say that there is a difference between merely singing with a dry mouth and causing damage to your voice. Especially if you are part of a choir, you shouldn't need to sing in such a way as to cause any type of damage to your voice. If you find yourself routinely forcing, hoarse, croaking, or causing any type of permenant damage to your voice, you might want to re-consider things like your voice part, technique, etc.

[M.C. Steenberg]

Dear all,

I think that what others have written above is worthy of re-stating: the practice is universal as the standard in the Church, that the fast before communion is of all food and drink. This is a sacrifice, and we should approach it as such. If necessity means that it must be altered, this is of course part of the Lord's mercy that is discussed with our spiritual father and embraced with his blessing. But our aim should always be that rule handed down from the fathers, whenever we are so able to keep it.

INXC, Dcn Matthew

[Eric Peterson]

I have been reading and chanting in church for several years now and my voice has suffered no adverse effects from abstaining from water, even during Holy Week. I hydrate before midnight, and don't have issues unless I'm sick, and even then I still manage all right.

I'm not sure that a priest ever explicitly told me how to fast for Holy Communion, but I think we have more resources available than just the priest to inform us on how to practice our faith. We have books, other people, our own conscience, and our own questioning which we can apply by asking our priests and by investigating for ourselves.

The grace of God covers all these sacrifices--the fasting, the standing for long periods, the communion from a single spoon. There is no outbreak of disease that is more prevalent amongst the Orthodox than amongst the rest of the population. We are not losing our voices at a faster rate. And the ascetics who slept little and ate even less lived into advanced old age. We try to make things easier for ourselves, but I think we often miss the point--in a way, already receiving our reward. There are, definitely, reasons why certain people cannot fast, and there is a blessing for that. But singing really isn't one of them.

[Robin Elizabeth]

I still don't see what the issue is with drinking water if you need it to sing properly. If it's a problem then why do priests drink water while serving the Liturgy if they need it to chant without getting froggy?

[Father David Moser]

I still don't see what the issue is with drinking water if you need it to sing properly. If it's a problem then why do priests drink water while serving the Liturgy if they need it to chant without getting froggy?

Priests drink water while serving the liturgy??? That is something I have only seen onceand then it was only when the priest was coughing so hard he began to choke. He took a sip of holy water to stop the choking. But just because you're "froggy"? no haven't seen that in all the years I've been in the altar whether the person was a deacon, priest or bishop.

Fr David Moser

[Effie Ganatsios]

I have to confess that this is the first time I have heard that fasting from water is required before communion. Even to the extent of not brushing your teeth before church! My husband doesn't drink coffee before church on Sunday but he does shower and brush his teeth. He is very knowledgeable about his faith and I tend to follow his example, knowing the person he is.

I just asked him about this and he told me that we don't, of course, eat anything before communion but he has never been told that we should not drink water.



Moderation in all things.

If in doubt discuss the matter with your spiritual father. He will be able to advise you.

Effie

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Priests drink water while serving the liturgy??? That is something I have only seen onceand then it was only when the priest was coughing so hard he began to choke. He took a sip of holy water to stop the choking. But just because you're "froggy"? no haven't seen that in all the years I've been in the altar whether the person was deacon, priest or bishop.

Fr David Moser

To confirm this. Clergy do not drink water before communion. Also laity are not to eat or consume liquids, smoke cigarettes, etc before Holy Communion (it should be known that in pious custom laity used to do such a fast even when they did not commune although this has largely fallen by the wayside).

Brushing your teeth though to my knowledge at least is permitted. The concern you will hear of is about swallowing water unintentionally while doing so.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Robin Elizabeth]

Priests drink water while serving the liturgy??? That is something I have only seen onceand then it was only when the priest was coughing so hard he began to choke. He took a sip of holy water to stop the choking. But just because you're "froggy"? no haven't seen that in all the years I've been in the altar whether the person was a deacon, priest or bishop.

Fr David Moser

I personally know several priests who do drink water if they are getting froggy. The priests I know are OCA and GO and I noticed that the ones here that insist it isn't done are ROCOR. So I am wondering if it is a difference between jurisdictions.

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

This isn't a jurisdictional matter. It is a matter of how various clergy interpret what the rule is.

From this point on let's please focus on the theme of this thread. The Patristic and ascetic understanding of why we fast/or not from food & drink before communion.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Vasiliki D.]

Cough, can I suggest that the night before, prior to midnight, if one plans to chant/sing in the Choir for the Service that they drink a glass of freshly squeezed Pineapple Juice ... it has a special quality in that it softens the vocal chords! This might helpd with the "tightness" of the chords that is experienced due to the dehydration from water ...

Let me know if it helps.
God Bless.
Vasiliki