Responding to Orthodox leaving the Church

[Maria Murray]

How shall we speak with those who have left the Orthodox Church - some who simply stopped going and some who willingly traded it for another church? I am speaking as someone who's been there personally - I have done both in the past - so when I think of people like that, it's like looking in the mirror. I try to see myself in the problem instead of criticising others, but I still don't know what to do! I am asking this question because of its practical importance to me: I know many Russians in the US and every day I speak to someone baptized Orthodox but doesn't practice their faith or left in disappointment. It breaks my heart. I realize the most important way of speaking of faith is to live the virtues and commandments of the Gospel. But when it comes up in conversations, what should I be saying? Here are a few questions I'd like to discuss:

1. First of all, we are warned of the dangers of apostasy so it's worse to be Orthodox at some point and then leave then to never have been Orthodox, am I correct in understanding this? Does this mean that it's our duty to point them to the Church? If so, should it be done only gently? Or is this selfish, rude and arrogant?

2. Is it better to remain only nominally 'Orthodox' than to be a devout Christian 'heretic'? I know many people who left Orthodoxy to become evangelical Protestant in this country because they didn't understand, didn't "read the Bible", didn't "have anything explained", "only stood there while priest was behind the altar", by their words. It seems that they now love God much more and live the Christian virtues to a much fuller degree than they did being nominally 'Orthodox'. So I can't tell them they should have remained 'Orthodox' in the way they were.

3. Are their concerns valid? Is the problem in themselves (myself) or should something be done about it in the church (like outreach, evangelisation etc)? If so, what is the best way to talk about it to them?

I spoke with a Russian Evangelical pastor and his wife about this and they told me they have seen hundreds of 'Orthodox' who didn't understand Christianity beyond rituals and who came to grow in faith and love for God in the Evangelical tradition, yet they NEVER have personally known anyone who converted from Evangelical to Orthodox! It is sad but largely true in my experience too. It is not surprising then that they find a Protestant church where they learn to see things from 'Sola Scriptura' perspective and start seeing Orthodoxy as unbiblical and to return to Orthodoxy now would be an abandonment of the simplicity of their faith. I can't tell you how often I have these conversations! And I don't know how to handle them properly. Should I just invite them to church? (doesn't usually work) Should I have a discussion? Should I just keep my mouth shut and say nothing? This is a huge burden for me right now and I would really appreciate some advice. Thank you.

[Herman Blaydoe]

This is a huge topic. Even Christ Himself was faced with disciples who left during His earthly ministry.

But I do know of those who where raised nominally Orthodox but left for Protestantism who came back once Protestantism lost its lustre. We can continue to pray for them and be ready at all times to defend the hope that is in us with love and patience. Prodigals do return from time to time.

[John Charmley]

Dear Maria,

Pray for them, but do not seem to be preaching to or at them, I would say.

Should they engage you in discussion then it is only polite and correct to point out why you stay where you are; you may also find out why they have left - which may be a wake up call to those who are Orthodox but forget about mission. It may give you hints of what members of the Church ought to be doing. But if, as your posts suggest, you are humble and of good heart, you will not go far wrong in your discussions, and may even, by your example, make them wonder about their decision.

When you write:

It seems that they now love God much more and live the Christian virtues to a much fuller degree than they did being nominally 'Orthodox'. So I can't tell them they should have remained 'Orthodox' in the way they were.

you touch my heart. Those wiser than I must find an answer, for none comes to me, save that I cannot but wonder why they have only been 'nominally Orthodox'? I even wonder whether in any real sense, one can be 'nominal' and Orthodox - of course one can, I know - but it would argue a deficiency somewhere along the line. Still, as an exiting Anglican, I perhaps know too much about nominal Christianity, so I both understand and lament.

But how sad that anyone should experience Orthodoxy as being 'unbiblical', when it is quite the opposite. Some may disagree, but Fr. Peter Gilquist's Becoming Orthodox is, I would think, a good book to recommend to those who think that the Church is 'unbiblical'.

You ask whether their concerns are 'valid'? Of course they must of necessity be so. Few, if any, convert on a whim. As someone 'coming the other way', so to say, I am only too aware of the heartache, the soul-searching and the contemplation involved.

In terms of advice, I think, somehow, you have it sussed. Your kindness, your Christian charity and your concern are all that is really necessary. No one will refrain from leaving if they are told they are about to become a heretic and go to Hell; it is best to ask, if they invite the conversation, why they are dissatisfied, and, if you get the chance, to say why you are not.

I fear some will find in this a wishy-washy Anglican approach - but I see it as part of the commandment to love one another. As He said, if we love those who love us, what does it profit us, since even sinners do that. We are all sinners - it is just that some of us are in what we believe is the right hospital. If we really believe it when we ask that His will be done, we can gain the humility to do what we ought.

In Christ,

John

[Sunny]

Dear Maria,

Thank you for bringing up this important topic. It is one my husband and I talk about often. I was a devout evangelical for 30 years, and because we moved alot we attended more churches than I could count. In an evangelical church you will find people who are trying to find a spiritual dimension for their lives, some have come because their spouses are hungering for God and they get pulled in too. Some want their children to be in Christian programs to counteract the terrible public school environment. A very few are coming because it is something they grew up with ie. a cultural thing. You find the cultural, ethnic emphasis in Catholic and Orthodox faiths mainly due to what they are taught-this is THE true church, the ONLY way to Heaven, you are going to Hell if you leave etc. You rarely see this pressure in Protestant churches, so the people who attend are pretty much there because they want to know God and/or get their lives straightened out.

Many evangelicals are OUTSIDE people. They emphasize the external aspects of Christianity-be a good spouse, person, a good citizen, parent, etc. The worship is also external-shout, clap, laugh, dance around-the worship teams are trying to get people "excited" about God. On the other hand, the Orthodox faith is internal first: faith, trust, surrender, humility, fasting, prayer,
an internal work. So IF a person is nominal Orthodox and they have none of the inner life-all they see is dead ritual that doesn't affect them because their hearts are not involved. They have not been awakened. So if they go to the evangelicals, they see an outside performance and mistake it for spiritual reality when really, it can be just smoke and mirrors.

I never fit in the evangelical churches because I focused on the internal, and there was never life for me there. Someone (I think Leonard Ravenhill) said once that," The evangelical church in America was hundreds of miles wide and only a few inches deep." That sums up my own experience.

Until people are AWAKENED by the Lord, I don't think they can even see this truth. I think prayer is the most important thing. Honestly, living a so-called Christian life is done and done better by many protestants than Orthodox. But prayer to our God and with the help of all the blessed saints- this can cause miracles to happen. Real prayer from our hearts for those whom the Lord has placed in our families or in our lives this is the answer.

My experience and my opinions-hope I haven't offended.

Sunny

[Kosta]

Dear Sunny,

You have been there. So you actually have better experience that many of us in this area. I'm a cradle Orthodox greek and i know nominal and lapsed Orthodox, but ive never met any that left Orthodoxy, ever.
But re-aquainting (former) Orthodox christians back to the Church, may perhaps be your calling?

[John Charmley]

My experience and my opinions-hope I haven't offended.

Sunny

Dear Sunny,

Far from causing any offence you have expressed your thoughts on a difficult topic with real Christian charity and understanding; those who are fortunate enough to speak with you would have an understanding of why they should not leave the Church. Your observation about the nature of nominal Orthodoxy is very acute.

It seems to me that what you say about living the Christian life is profoundly true. We can learn from some of those who do not have the fullness of the Faith about how to help awaken the knowledge and love of Our Lord; even as they have much to learn from Orthodoxy so that they might be brought to a deeper and fuller understanding of the Faith to which, in many ways, they bear a great witness.

We must love and pray for those whose troubled spirits prompt them away from Orthodoxy - and wonder where we may have failed them. Your post gives us much to think on Sunny.

In Christ,

John

[Mary]

How shall we speak with those who have left the Orthodox Church - some who simply stopped going and some who willingly traded it for another church?

Dear Maria,

I have often wondered the same thing myself. Both when I was a protestant, and now as an orthodox. I don't know there's much we can do other than pray for them. There are two families that I know personally, Christian families, some of their kids remained Christians, others turned away completely. They all received the same kind of upbringing. What caused some to get disillusioned and leave?

Perhaps it's the same with orthodox as it is with other christians. I've heard it said that Christianity is just one generation away from becoming extinct and I think it's true. I watch my kids and how they've embrased orthodoxy and I wonder if their enthusiasm and love will deepen or weaken as they get older. All I can do is pray. But what would I do if they do fall away from the Church? I believe, the only thing that would bring them back, is if I continued to love them and watch for their return, like the father of the Prodigal son.

Sometimes this free will thing bothers me. Why doesn't God 'lock' the free will once we've made the choice to get on the right path? Then I'd know that my kids would be safe, then I'd know that I'd be safe.... sigh.

In my first few months of being a catechumen, I was quite judgemental towards the cradle orthodox in our parish who seemed to be more nominal. They didn't seem to care what time they came to church, or else they only came when it was their turn to host coffee hour, their kids were afraid of communion because they are probably only brought once or twice a year. And a host of other things that I thought could be better, if only they would open their eyes and see what a treasure they have.

Then I heard Fr Moses speak on Orthodox Sunday (last year) and at the end of his message, he thanked all the cradle orthodox for holding on to the True faith and preserving it for all these years, so that it was there for him to find, when he finally came to his senses. That's when I understood... they held on and that was VERY important. Whether they did it with their whole heart or begrudgingly because they thought it was a cultural thing, the truth is, they held on. Even though the services are long, even though the fasts are demanding, they didn't water it down, and morph it into something unrecognizable like the protestants do with whatever doesn't fit anymore. Being an orthodox isn't easy. Anyone who choses to come to Church on Sunday morning, is already blessed because they could've stayed in bed or gone shopping instead.

I'm not sure what I would say to someone who has left the Church, except to befriend them and invite them to Church for events other than services so they'll get to know more of the faithful people. Maybe they'll like us enough to come back! =)

There was a lady who told me about her son, in the last protestant church we went to... she said he had trouble believing he was loved. So he decided to test the love of his parents and also those he grew up with in that church. He got into all kinds of trouble, but on Sundays, he'd come to church, just to watch people's reactions to his sinful life, which he didn't keep a secret. People treated him the way they always did, were happy to see him, spent time talking to him and everything else they normally did with him. I don't know if they 'conspired' as a church to treat him that way or if most folks in that congregation were pretty mature. Anyway, he continued testing them for about 3 years or so and they didn't wear down. That satisfied him, and he came back.

I know I've only shared stories of protestants. Mostly it's because that's all I've had experience with and the other reason is, hopefully, to encourage the Orthodox - if they can love, with what little bits and pieces of the Truth they have, so can we! =)

In Christ,
Mary.

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

For those who are having a problem with the Faith (and we mostly all do at some time) or have even dropped out we must be as the Father greeting the Prodigal Son. Notice that for the Father it is not completely open-ended. The Father comes out to greet the son, but still the greeting is in the context of the son returning home, ie the Church. We always have to have this attitude but also be very free in regards to those undergoing temptations. Many mistakes are made that in fact rely on human enticement to draw people to the Church which violate the free decision upon which real faith depends.

This latter also shows that in this question there is not just the Father welcoming us back to the Church. We also like the Prodigal Son must constantly be turning ourselves back towards the Church. We must all see how we are in fact the Prodigal Son and in need of turning back. In other words there is need for constant use of our will to affirm what is of Christ and of the Church. Conversion never ends or at least should never end.

But as described below this occurs with different people in different ways. Those who come to the Church as adults from conviction employ their will in a different way than those born into the Church. Both ways have positives to work from but both have potential pitfalls (having been in both worlds for an equal amount of time I can say that convert fever is as troublesome in parish life as any ethnic malaise).

In any case we need to keep in mind as suggested below that for all who are in the Church this takes an active act of the will. Theoretically one could just as easily stay in bed on Sunday morning since the other 80 to 90% of the population already is 'worshipping' in this way.

So for people to remain in the Church we tell them the truth but in a certain way. We provide the means with integrity but keeping in mind that we need to allow each person to come freely to their own decision of affirmation and commitment.

In Christ- Fr Raphael


But what would I do if they do fall away from the Church? I believe, the only thing that would bring them back, is if I continued to love them and watch for their return, like the father of the Prodigal son.

Sometimes this free will thing bothers me. Why doesn't God 'lock' the free will once we've made the choice to get on the right path? Then I'd know that my kids would be safe, then I'd know that I'd be safe.... sigh.

In my first few months of being a catechumen, I was quite judgemental towards the cradle orthodox in our parish who seemed to be more nominal. They didn't seem to care what time they came to church, or else they only came when it was their turn to host coffee hour, their kids were afraid of communion because they are probably only brought once or twice a year. And a host of other things that I thought could be better, if only they would open their eyes and see what a treasure they have.

Then I heard Fr Moses speak on Orthodox Sunday (last year) and at the end of his message, he thanked all the cradle orthodox for holding on to the True faith and preserving it for all these years, so that it was there for him to find, when he finally came to his senses. That's when I understood... they held on and that was VERY important. Whether they did it with their whole heart or begrudgingly because they thought it was a cultural thing, the truth is, they held on. Even though the services are long, even though the fasts are demanding, they didn't water it down, and morph it into something unrecognizable like the protestants do with whatever doesn't fit anymore. Being an orthodox isn't easy. Anyone who choses to come to Church on Sunday morning, is already blessed because they could've stayed in bed or gone shopping instead.

I'm not sure what I would say to someone who has left the Church, except to befriend them and invite them to Church for events other than services so they'll get to know more of the faithful people. Maybe they'll like us enough to come back! =)

There was a lady who told me about her son, in the last protestant church we went to... she said he had trouble believing he was loved. So he decided to test the love of his parents and also those he grew up with in that church. He got into all kinds of trouble, but on Sundays, he'd come to church, just to watch people's reactions to his sinful life, which he didn't keep a secret. People treated him the way they always did, were happy to see him, spent time talking to him and everything else they normally did with him. I don't know if they 'conspired' as a church to treat him that way or if most folks in that congregation were pretty mature. Anyway, he continued testing them for about 3 years or so and they didn't wear down. That satisfied him, and he came back.

I know I've only shared stories of protestants. Mostly it's because that's all I've had experience with and the other reason is, hopefully, to encourage the Orthodox - if they can love, with what little bits and pieces of the Truth they have, so can we! =)

In Christ,
Mary.

[John Charmley]

Sometimes this free will thing bothers me. Why doesn't God 'lock' the free will once we've made the choice to get on the right path? Then I'd know that my kids would be safe, then I'd know that I'd be safe.... sigh.


Dear Mary,

The answer, of course, is because it would not then be 'free will'.

For those of us with the blessing and responsibility of parenthood there is nothing more difficult than watching our children as they leave the nest; but how much would we have appreciated our parents fussing when we were that age?

All we can do as parents is our best - and know it will never be good enough; that is a cross we have to bear.

In Christ,

John