Joining Eastern Orthodoxy

[Geoffrey Miller]

If I were to join Eastern Orthodoxy, could I request a conditional Baptism and Chrismation? I feel so confused and isolated in the modern world. I want a secure place of peace and love. I do not have anything against the Catholic Church, I feel like I married her in a sense during my Confirmation. But I am beginning to regret it deeply. It's like a marriage that's falling apart. I feel so saddened by the events occuring in the Catholic Church, and the destruction of the Liturgy. I want to begin anew and forget the past, but it all haunts me. I feel kind of like one of the prisoners in the Ladder (albeit in a much lesser degree). I just want the light of God's face to shine on me once again. Pray for me, advise me, and help me. I need it. Faith has become politics for me rather than theosis, and I see evil everywhere. I have no rest, and constantly worry about the fate of my soul and of the Church.

[Paul Cowan]

Welcome Geoffrey:
I don't think there is such a thing as conditional Baptism. Once you "join the Club" you are a member for life. My Priest explained that the RC are long lost brothers. The Prodigal Son story and all.

If the RC were to return to the way it was in the beginning they would be welcomed and would not have to go through the entire Catachism process. They would of course have alot to relearn before being fully welcomed back. Forgiveness is not conditional, but behaviours must be modified. (Fathers please correct me).

The great thing about NOT being a Heirarch is that we are not held accountable to the degree as they are (forgive me Fathers). We are held accountable to the degree God has given us to learn. Don't worry about the Church. The Holy Spirit is watching over her.

Do Not Worry
Matthew 6-
25 “Therefore I say to you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink; nor about your body, what you will put on. Is not life more than food and the body more than clothing?
26 Look at the birds of the air, for they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they?
27 Which of you by worrying can add one cubit to his stature?
28 “So why do you worry about clothing? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin;
29 and yet I say to you that even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.
30 Now if God so clothes the grass of the field, which today is, and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will He not much more clothe you, O you of little faith?
31 “Therefore do not worry, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’
32 For after all these things the Gentiles seek. For your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things.
33 But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, (bold mine) and all these things shall be added to you.
34 Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about its own things. Sufficient for the day is its own trouble.

That said, Think on what is in front of you. Not what is not yet to come. These discussion boards are good for learning insight, but they can distract you from prayer. PRAY. Don't worry about the workings of the church. Focus on yourself, your Parish and your neighbors needs. Leave the worrying to those who are the cause of their own troubles. God sees the heart. Have a pure heart for Him to reside in.

Now if I can just follow my own advice.

In Christ,
Paul

[John Charmley]

If I were to join Eastern Orthodoxy, could I request a conditional Baptism and Chrismation? I feel so confused and isolated in the modern world. I want a secure place of peace and love. I do not have anything against the Catholic Church, I feel like I married her in a sense during my Confirmation. But I am beginning to regret it deeply.

Dear Geoffrey,

Paul's advice is good advice.

If you were to move quickly, it might be another case of marrying in haste and repenting at leisure, so do nothing swiftly - except get to prayer.

Do you have a priest or a close friend or family member with whom you can discuss these things?

The priests here will answer on whether conditional baptism etc. is possible; my feeling is it is not, although one can enter upon a catechumenate. There are times when the modern world is a very alienating place, and my heart goes out for you as you search for God's love; be assured it is there.

Don't worry about the state of the Church and the world, they will both be there long after you have passed on; concern yourself with your soul and your salvation - and remember, God loves you.

I hope that you have someone with whom it is possible for you to discuss these things.

In Christ,

John

[Andreas Moran]

Last year, a priest from Russia visited Essex and we invited him and his wife to lunch. He was a troubled soul, moving from one jurisdiction to another (MP, Old Believers, and outfits we'd never heard of!). Lydia said to him, 'the perfect jurisdiction doesn't exist. They are administered by fallible men. The jurisdiction is more than those who run it - it represents the authority of the Church which is a divine organism, not a human institution. You may disagree with some things or feel scandalised by the conduct of some high-up people. Just work on your salvation.'

Bishop Eirenaios told me very early on: 'Andrea - you will come across things in the Church which you will not like and you will hear of people, even hierarchs, who will upset you. Do not let such things disturb you - it was always so and it always will be. Attend to yourself.'

Geoffrey - I second what Paul and John have said. Be assured that the Orthodox Church contains the fulness of the Truth.

[Geoffrey Miller]

I am sure it has the fullness of Truth, but I would like to know if you provide conditional Baptism. It seems there was a misunderstanding, conditional Baptism is "In case you have not already been baptized, I baptize..." It is performed when there is concern regarding someone's previous Baptism. I was baptized in a Southern Baptist Church, and confirmed in the Catholic Church. I am asking, can these Sacraments be performed again conditionally, in case the other ones were done wrong or performed with a wrong intent?

I have been discerning for several years, so I am not new to the process of entering, but your advice is beneficial.

[John Charmley]

Dear Geoffrey,

As one who was today baptised into the British Orthodox Church, I can say that in the Oriental Orthodox tradition it is the norm to do this to one from outside the Orthodox tradition; it casts no aspersions on one's previous baptism, but marks one's reception into Orthodoxy. So I guess that would be a 'yes' then!:)

May God guide you in your search.

In Christ,

John

[Nina]

Dear Geoffrey,

As one who was today baptised into the British Orthodox Church, I can say that in the Oriental Orthodox tradition it is the norm to do this to one from outside the Orthodox tradition; it casts no aspersions on one's previous baptism, but marks one's reception into Orthodoxy. So I guess that would be a 'yes' then!:)

May God guide you in your search.

In Christ,

John

OMG!!! John! Congratulations for being baptized today!!! Welcome and we say Kalo Paradiso! Which means literally Good Paradise!
Thank you for sharing the news and giving us much joy! :):) :) :) :)

[John Charmley]

Dear Nina,

And thank you for your joy and the expression of it.

Now for Lent!:)

In Christ,

John

[Rick H.]

Dear Brother in Christ John,

I am so happy for you! What a special day, what a good day!! May you continue from an Orthodox framework as "the Good Doctor" to be a peacemaker, and as a true apostle of Love for Christ. I am speechless, but my friend Thomas Merton in the following is not:


The one who has attained final integration is no longer
limited by the culture in which he has grown up. "He has
embraced all of life." He passes beyond all these limiting
forms, while retaining all that is best and most universal
in them, finally giving birth to a fully comprehensive
self. He accepts not only his own community, his own
society, his own friends, his own culture, but all humanity.
He does not remain bound to one limited set of values in
such a way that he opposes them aggressively or defensively
to others. He is fully "Catholic" in the best sense of he
word. He has a unified vision and experience of the one
truth shining out in all its various manifestations, some
clearer than others, some more definite and more certain
than others. He does not set these partial views up in
opposition to each other, but unifies them in a dialectic
or an insight of complementarity. With this view of life he
is able to bring perspective, liberty and spontaneity into
the lives of others. The finally integrated person is a
peacemaker, and that is why there is such a desperate need
for our leaders to become such persons of insight.

Blessed are the peacemakers John.

In Christ's Love,
Rick

[Father David Moser]

I am sure it has the fullness of Truth, but I would like to know if you provide conditional Baptism. It seems there was a misunderstanding, conditional Baptism is "In case you have not already been baptized, I baptize..." It is performed when there is concern regarding someone's previous Baptism. I was baptized in a Southern Baptist Church, and confirmed in the Catholic Church. I am asking, can these Sacraments be performed again conditionally, in case the other ones were done wrong or performed with a wrong intent?

The formula for such a baptism does exist, however, it is used for those people who consider themselves Orthodox and think they might have been baptized in infancy but don't know and want to enter the full sacramental life of the Church. This situation has arisen at times with those from post-Soviet Russia who suspect they might have been baptized in secret by a pious mother or grandmother during the soviet years when such a thing was illegal and so no records were kept and no one was ever told.

For a person in your situation, the conditional baptism is not used. The local ruling bishop would have to make a determination whether you should be received by baptism and chrismation or whether some form of economia might apply and you would be received by chrismation only. I can only speak for ROCOR clergy since there is so much variation out there. In the Church Abroad, the standard practice is to receive everyone by baptism and chrismation regardless of what they may have experienced in a non-Orthodox confession in the past. Exceptions can be made with the approval of the ruling hierarch of the diocese.

In the US, different jursidictions have different default practices in this regard and so it is hard to say what you might face in one of the other jurisdictions.

Fr David Moser

[Trudy]

As one who was today baptised into the British Orthodox Church,

Okay, so my computer is down for ONE DAY and I miss this exciting news!!

Congratulations and many, many blessed years to the newly illumined John! :) :) :)

With love in Christ,
Athanasia

[Lourens]

Dear Mr. Charmley,

Congratulations! :) Congratulations! :) Congratulations! :)

It is written that the angels rejoice when one sinner comes to repentance.

I can just imagine what happens then, when a saint decides to move home; or is it, move house, and come home?

It is like a rock falling into water and causing ripples far beyond its point of entry.

Brother Rick's tribute (the Merton quote) is entirely apt. Your gentle mediating and peace-promoting skills are remarkable.

Happy to have learned of your (final) decision. :)

Respectfully,

Learner

P.S. May we look forward to an Apologia Pro Vita Sua a la John Henry Newman?
The title page of my copy of Cardinal Newman's work contains, of all things, this quote by Milton:
"How Charming Is Divine Philosophy."

Now, there's a sign..

[John Charmley]

Dear Trudy, Dear Leastone,

:) To say that I am touched by what you both say hardly gets to the starting line; such kind sentiments so beautifully expressed help sustain one in the dark times and places, and I am profoundly grateful for them.

It has been a very long journey (I first encountered Orthodoxy when I was eighteen, and I'm now fifty-one, so no one can accuse me of convert fever!), and at times, without Him, I should indeed have despaired of finding the way home. To even say that I am unworthy seems like pride, but that is what Grace is for.

This site has been a God send to me. On it I have encountered so many types of Orthodoxy, but one thing shines out from all of them - the love of God and the depth of the Faith.

For me, it is the next step on the journey; but finally, the road is the right one.

Thank you both, once again, for your kindness.

In Christ,

John

[Peter Farrington]

Let me also add my congratulations to John,

And also my gratitude that I have come to know him as a friend and was able to be there for his reception into the Church.

It was a long drive - by English standards (I know Americans will cross the continent at the drop of a hat) - and I had the flu - but I would not have wanted to be anywhere else yesterday.

Peter

[John Charmley]

Dear Peter,

The journey is made easier and more pleasant with companions like you.

You know what I think about your help, which has always been there if needed.

Last night I read St. Cyril of Jerusalem's 19th Catechetical lecture, 'to the newly baptised', and the first words struck me as representing what I feel now:

1. I HAVE long been wishing, O true-born and dearly beloved children of the Church, to discourse to you concerning these spiritual and heavenly
Mysteries; but since I well knew that seeing is far more persuasive than
hearing, I waited for the present season; that finding you more open to the
influence of my words from your present experience, I might lead you by
the hand into the brighter and more fragrant meadow of the Paradise before
us; especially as ye have been made fit to receive the more sacred
Mysteries, after having been found worthy of divine and life-giving
Baptism.

I hope, pray, and trust that this will be so.

But to you, Peter, and to the BOC, my thanks are beyond words.

In Christ,

John

[Mary]

Dear Geoffrey,

As one who was today baptised into the British Orthodox Church, I can say that in the Oriental Orthodox tradition it is the norm to do this to one from outside the Orthodox tradition; it casts no aspersions on one's previous baptism, but marks one's reception into Orthodoxy. So I guess that would be a 'yes' then!:)

May God guide you in your search.

In Christ,

John

Oh how absolutely wonderful!! I was wondering when you would finally take the plunge! (sorry, couldn't help it). Congratulations. I didn't think this day could get any better. It is for such occassions that I wish I werent' so limited by human language!

In answer to Geoffrey's question about 'conditional baptism' - I can only share what I went through. Our priest told us, it's a case by case decision - which is made during the time that you're a catechumen. We were evangelical protestants, and both my husband & I had been baptised in the name of the Trinity. And most of our theological understanding was pretty solid, so we only 'needed' a Christmation.

But in my heart, I felt like I was becoming a Christian for the very first time, and I didn't want to miss out on any blessing that comes to me through any sacrament. So I wanted to be baptised and our priest was thrilled. And I'm ever and ever so glad I did... it's nothing like the baptism I had as a protestant, I got to spit on the devil and all! =) Oh, and how wonderful it was to say the creed... Yes, yes, yes, it's worth getting yourself wet for. I wish I could do it again and again and again...

God is good - 3 weeks after my husband & I were baptised, our kids were baptised, and I got my wish - I felt like I was going through it all over again. So, if you're nearby, invite me over, I want to get baptised again!

Of our other friends who had become orthodox before us, the one got baptised and the others got Chrismated. If you wish to be baptised, by all means ask for it!

In Christ,
Mary.

[John Charmley]

Dear Mary,

Thank you for your kind words:)

I would echo what you say. 'Last time' I was baptised I was six weeks old, so I can't possibly compare it with what happened yesterday; but what I can compare is the experience of the Eucharist - and there is no comparison.

My bishop explained when I became a Catechumen that the practice of baptism meant no disrespect to my previous Church, nor any need on my part to renounce anything; it was about coming to the fullness of the Faith. Your feelings are the ones I shared yesterday.

In Christ,

John

[Nina]

And I'm ever and ever so glad I did... it's nothing like the baptism I had as a protestant, I got to spit on the devil and all! =)

Mary.

:) Mary you have such a great sense of humor. You make me laugh, or smile all the time when I read your posts.

It is so great that you mention the saying of the Creed. Actually a couple of weeks ago at the church I go to, there was a Christmation (I had never seen one before). So the woman that was being Chrismated, started crying while saying the Creed. It was so emotional that I could not keep my tears either.

However, to someone very dear to me, that is contemplating joining Orthodoxy, I am highly recommending baptism just for the -as a friend of mine said it- sake of a new beginning. My friend also said: "Imagine! All your previous sins erased by the power of the Baptism!"

Which reminds me of something from my own baptism. I was born in (how you call it in US) a cradle Orthodox family. However it happened that the priest (Orthodox) could pour water only on my head (long story) and not submerge me.

So later on I was not at ease with this fact and decided to ask my spiritual father -who is a monk from Mount Athos- about it. He jokingly said: "Well... only your head will go to Paradise!" I was petrified, since I did not understand that it was a joke (he kept a serious face while saying it), and started asking if I could be baptized asap. He smilingly hurried to say: "No, no, no-it was a joke! You are baptized! Can't perform this sacrament twice on the same person!"

So I know what you mean when you say you can get baptized over and over again. I considered it as well. However as my spiritual father said it, Holy Baptism is one of those mysteries that we perform only one time in the Orthodox Church.

[Andreas Moran]

It's true that 'once you're in, you're in', but I would urge Baptism and not only Chrismation. Baptism might not be strictly necessary but after I saw Kathryn baptised I became sure that it is to be highly recommended.

[Nina]

It's true that 'once you're in, you're in', but I would urge Baptism and not only Chrismation. Baptism might not be strictly necessary but after I saw Kathryn baptised I became sure that it is to be highly recommended.

Yes Andreas! I edited it and said highly recommended. Since that is how I feel also.

[Mary]

It is so great that you mention the saying of the Creed. Actually a couple of weeks ago at the church I go to, there was a Christmation (I had never seen one before). So the woman that was being Chrismated, started crying while saying the Creed. It was so emotional that I could not keep my tears either.


Oh, I understand completely. For weeks after my baptism, whenever I prayed at home I couldn't get through the creed without crying. Every day, it was a different part that made me weep.

Just like when I heard a song on the 'Our life in Christ' radio show - Steve said it was sung by nuns in this place where The Apostle Paul went to. I'm not sure what I was doing at that time, but I had to stop and weep. I was just so overwhelmed to discover that the Church that St Paul had planted was still there and making beautiful music.

"I believe... in One Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church..."

You know, just talking about all this, makes me feel like I'm becoming Orthodox all over again! Thank you all for restoring to me, the joy of His salvation.

Of course, it helps greatly to have spiritual fathers that would tell you that only your head will make it to paradise! LOL

In Christ,
Mary

[Nina]

:) Yes, my spiritual father has a great sense of humor. Like you do as well. :) And he is always smiling (in 'Member Images' you can see him smiling and holding the icon of Panaghia).

I think many spiritual titans have had a great sense of humor.
Like Elder Paisios of Mount Athos for instance. Once he was in his cell talking about spiritual matters with some visitors who had come to see him. One of the men had brought his young son, who was beating the ground with a stick, distracting thus all of them from the spiritual discourse. Seeing this Elder Paisios said to the child: "You know [Kosta] if you continue like this, you may end waking up all the people in Australia, since there is night time and they are sleeping now!" :)
Their humor and tact is unbelievable!

They also teach us so much through humor. For example some guys went to Elder Paisios and told him: "Why don't you perform a miracle for us, so we can see and believe?" So the Elder told them: "Ok. Just put your heads down on these cut tree trunks and wait for me to cut off your heads. But watch out! Do not let your bodies switch places, because when the miracle happens then wrong heads will be attached to the wrong bodies!" The didactic value of this joke is obvious, but it is also a great reminder for us to be humble when we approach and relate to our spiritual leaders.

[Mary]

:) Yes, my spiritual father has a great sense of humor. Like you do as well. :) And he is always smiling (in 'Member Images' you can see him smiling and holding the icon of Panaghia).


Thanks :). I love the picture of your spiritual father. His name is Fr Theologos? Where's he going with that icon? Is the picture taken at Mt Athos? Sorry. Many questions. You may avoid answering the nosey ones, I won't be offended.

Perhaps we should chit chat someplace else. We've sort of detoured from Geoffrey's topic... Sorry Geoffrey.

In Christ,
Mary.

[Nina]

Thanks :). I love the picture of your spiritual father. His name is Fr Theologos? Where's he going with that icon? Is the picture taken at Mt Athos? Sorry. Many questions. You may avoid answering the nosey ones, I won't be offended.

Perhaps we should chit chat someplace else. We've sort of detoured from Geoffrey's topic... Sorry Geoffrey.

In Christ,
Mary.

Yes, his name is Fr. Theologos. I have no idea where the picture is taken, or where they are going. I will ask my brother, who had the picture and I will PM you. Your questions are not nosy.

P.S Sorry Geoffrey.

[John Charmley]

Dear Nina,

I suspect that Geoffrey will have been as happy as the rest of us to read these joyful series of exchanges.

They are a reminder of something that is not, perhaps, as much commented on as it should be - which is the sheer joy of Orthodoxy. It may be the lightness that comes in the head from fasting, but since Sunday's baptism I have been feeling very joyful - my wife keeps asking why I'm smiling so much! I wasn't aware that I was. She is beginning to wonder about something that can make me happy to miss chocolate and to cook dinners without meat in them!

I've suggested she checks me out in a week!

In Christ,

John

[Nina]

Dear Nina,

I suspect that Geoffrey will have been as happy as the rest of us to read these joyful series of exchanges.

They are a reminder of something that is not, perhaps, as much commented on as it should be - which is the sheer joy of Orthodoxy. It may be the lightness that comes in the head from fasting, but since Sunday's baptism I have been feeling very joyful - my wife keeps asking why I'm smiling so much! I wasn't aware that I was. She is beginning to wonder about something that can make me happy to miss chocolate and to cook dinners without meat in them!

I've suggested she checks me out in a week!

In Christ,

John

I am so happy for your joy of Orthodoxy! May it continue throughout your life! :) :) :)

[Mary]

Dear Nina,

I suspect that Geoffrey will have been as happy as the rest of us to read these joyful series of exchanges.

They are a reminder of something that is not, perhaps, as much commented on as it should be - which is the sheer joy of Orthodoxy. It may be the lightness that comes in the head from fasting, but since Sunday's baptism I have been feeling very joyful - my wife keeps asking why I'm smiling so much! I wasn't aware that I was. She is beginning to wonder about something that can make me happy to miss chocolate and to cook dinners without meat in them!

I've suggested she checks me out in a week!

In Christ,

John

Dear John,

It only gets better and better. I was quit tipsy this past week. I have my moments, when my pondering gets me down, but when I understand what I need to do, and I obey even if it hurts, I get all lightheaded and full of smiles again. It's quit intoxicating!

I remember telling one of our Greek members at Coffee time (after Divine Liturgy) - that I dont' get hungry on Sundays because I'm so filled up with something that's so satisfying - and she stared at me silently for a while - and concluded that it was the after-effects of baptism. (I must've swallowed more water than I thought I did!)

In Christ,

Mary.

[Andrew]

It's true that 'once you're in, you're in', but I would urge Baptism and not only Chrismation. Baptism might not be strictly necessary but after I saw Kathryn baptised I became sure that it is to be highly recommended.

Same with my fiancee. Seeing her baptized was one of the most beautiful, radiant sights of my life. I kind of wish I was baptized into the Church... Chrismation fills with grace whatever was lacking before, and unites us into the Body of Christ, but if I were doing everything over again I would have entered through baptism.

I love holding the communion cloth as newly baptized people come forth for their first communion - this nearly brings tears to my eyes right now :)

[Nina]

They are a reminder of something that is not, perhaps, as much commented on as it should be - which is the sheer joy of Orthodoxy. ... since Sunday's baptism I have been feeling very joyful - my wife keeps asking why I'm smiling so much!

In Christ,

John


Dear John,

It only gets better and better. ... full of smiles again. It's quit intoxicating!

... I dont' get hungry on Sundays because I'm so filled up with something that's so satisfying -

In Christ,

Mary.


Same with my fiancee. Seeing her baptized was one of the most beautiful, radiant sights of my life.

I love holding the communion cloth as newly baptized people come forth for their first communion - this nearly brings tears to my eyes right now :)

You all express so beautifully and eloquently personal experiences of what Elder Paisios the Athonite calls 'rejoicing of God':

"Seek the ladder of discerning doxology and thanksgiving/rejoicing of God. The great sin is joylessness."

[John Charmley]

Dear Nina, Mary and Andrew,

Thank you all so very much for these uplifting and joyous posts.

Bless you all,:) :) :) :)

In Christ,

John