God and sin

[Elena]

If this question has already been addressed please point me towards the relevant thread.

I have always understood that by sin we have placed a barrier between God and us as God being the source and meaning of all that is good, cannot intermingle with that which is not. However we and the whole of creation only exist because God wills it so. Even after the fall He does continue to entirely engage with us, but cannot permanently dwell within us. Why?

God loves us, and hates our sins, but why should this have prevented Him dwelling within us? What is this great power of sin?

In Christ,

Elena.

[Herman Blaydoe]

Sin is not a crime to be punished, it is a sickness to be healed. He can and does dwell in us in as much as we allow it.

The Greek word for sin literally means "to miss the target", an archer "sins" when he does not hit what he is aiming at.

God dwells in each and every one. In the story of Fr. Arseny, a prisoner of the Russian Gulag, it tells us that he was given the gift of seeing the indwelling of Christ in everyone. In some people it was "brighter" or stronger than in others, but it was NEVER totally absent in anyone, according to Fr. Arseny.

Where do you get this teaching that God cannot permanently dwell within us? And how does it define "dwell"? It not something that I have come across to date.

[John Charmley]

Dear Elena,

My understanding would follow Herman's. The following from the works attributed to Justin Martyr seem germane [The Martyrdom of the Holy Martyrs]:

2. For as it was not possible that the man who had once for all been
conquered, and who had been destroyed through disobedience, could
reform himself, and obtain the prize of victory; and as it was also
impossible that he could attain to salvation who had fallen under the
power of sin, — the Son effected both these things, being the Word of
God, descending from the Father, becoming incarnate, stooping low, even
to death, and consummating the arranged plan of our salvation

In 1 Corinthians 15:3 St. Paul tells us:

For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,

We are made in God's image, sin mars that image, Christ provides the means by which that can be mended. There is much in what Herman says about God dwelling in each and every one of us; but I would be interested to know more of the ways in which you have read that sin prevents this.

In Christ,

John

[Elena]

Dear Herman and John,

Thank you very much for your replies and the quotations it is always a great joy to read such words. I'm afraid I didn't explain my question very well. It has been going round and round in my head for several days which has the tendency to make me rather incoherent. I should have talked about this in the past tense. My question was why did sin do this in the past, before the coming of Jesus. Why did our sin mar our relationship with God to such a degree, create such a spiritual sickness that although many continued to hunger and thirst for Him few could have the relationship which we are now blessed to be able to have. How could something have had that much power to separate us?

As for the idea of dwelling, I may be wrong but I thought that it was only after Pentecost that the Holy Spirit was able to permanently dwell within humans once again (it only dwelt temporarily in Moses when he came down from the mountain didn't it?). Yet as I said before we only exist (like everything else) because God entirely engages with our existence. How could God and Man ever be separated in any way, God is everywhere? I suppose the question is why did our sin mean that we needed salvation?

It is a strange question I know, and one that until a few days ago I had never considered. It has always been quite apparent to me that the world was fallen and in need of salvation and that sin, or disobedience to God was the cause of this. But given the power of God, how is it that sin could have such an incredible effect not only on us but the whole world?

Jesus did not simply show us the way back, His incarnation, death and resurrection fundamentally changed the nature of our relationship with God. Made it possible to heal the disease that sin is within our soul. But given the power of God's love which we have always experienced why was this healing needed?

As you can see I have got my thoughts into a complete mess.

In Christ,

Elena

[Vic Chiasson]

Hello Elena,

I think you are getting at something rather important. God is intimately present to all of creation continually else we would be deprived of existence. Yet intimacy with Him is not given to us in the same immediate way. I think sin is part of the problem but not the whole of it. The Fathers teach that the Logos would have been incarnate whether we fell or not. This means that while the union between us and God pre-fall was not in any way corrupt, it was not yet mature or complete. The Incarnation is the completion of that intimacy. When we participate in that intimacy completely as did the Theotokos we then are experiencing something that was not yet possible for our first parents. I know this does not address the question of the impact of sin but I thought it might help to clear the ground a little. Sin enters the picture of our relationship with God but it ought not to be the starting point of our theology. Today many earnest Christians struggle along with a sin-centered theology that makes sin the reason for the Incarnation. While it is true that in the Incarnation there is a complete remedy for sin and death, this is so because the Incarnation is about Life, the Divine Immortal Life of the Logos, the Son and Word. I hope this captures something of your question and make for some fruitful discussion. I must leave it here for the moment as work calls....sigh.

In Christ,
Vic

[Peter Farrington]

I wonder if there is a sense of personal intimacy involved in the life of a devout Christian?

I mean that in non-theological language, I wonder if it is like being in a room with someone. We can be even sitting next to them but there might be no intimacy, we can even embrace someone, but if we are still having an argument then there is a personal distance even though we are physically close.

Is it a bit like that? I mean that God is close to all in a physical, sustaining sense (and this is not meant theologically), and even has love towards all He sustains, but this love is not personally reciprocated by us, or we do not open our hearts to welcome this love, so there is a personal distance, an uncomfortable silence which began when Adam sinned and God walked in the garden and Adam must have looked down at his feet when God came to him, shuffling and feeling out of relationship. Physically close but personally an eternity away?

?????

Peter

[Andreas Moran]

Beautifully put Peter. And when we are tempted to think God is not listening to us, we have to trust that He is. I like the story from the late Cardinal Hume on 'unanswered prayer'. He said he used to phone an aunt who said nothing to him but liked him to talk to her and he knew that's how she was.

[Peter Farrington]

In a similar vein...whenever I am tried and find it hard to pray through the Liturgy I like to think that it is not that God is absent, but rather that His presence is so glorious that the weak eyes of my spirit are blinded.

Peter

[John Charmley]

Dear Elena,

I wonder if we are getting to your question

... why did sin do this in the past, before the coming of Jesus. Why did our sin mar our relationship with God to such a degree, create such a spiritual sickness that although many continued to hunger and thirst for Him few could have the relationship which we are now blessed to be able to have. How could something have had that much power to separate us?

The main consequence of sin was surely death? I am unsure that it follows that men could not have the close relationship with God that we can have. What about the Holy Prophets? Are we saying they did not have a close relationship with God?

The effect of the Incarnation upon those born before it happened lies in God's hands, and I am sure there must be some patristic comments upon this - but that lies beyond my poor knowledge; I would hope we would get enlightenment here.

Have I understood your question aright?

In Christ,

John

[Nina]

If this question has already been addressed please point me towards the relevant thread.

I have always understood that by sin we have placed a barrier between God and us as God being the source and meaning of all that is good, cannot intermingle with that which is not. However we and the whole of creation only exist because God wills it so. Even after the fall He does continue to entirely engage with us, but cannot permanently dwell within us. Why?

God loves us, and hates our sins, but why should this have prevented Him dwelling within us? What is this great power of sin?

In Christ,

Elena.

Actually, God was inhominated i.e., assumed human nature, hence Christ dwells in us. This is precisely the greatest mystery of Christianity, which culminates and is completed in His Death and Resurrection. In other words, although it is true that God loathes sin, His love for His creation is far greater and transcends any other feelings towards our sinful condition. Therefore we have established that Christ indeed dwells in us.

St. Athanasios the Great states in his Christological writings, the human race because of sin was headed in a self-destructive way towards nothingness, or as St. Athanasios expresses it: μηδέν = zero.

The Prophets and the Patriarchs of the Old Testament, although sent by God, states St. Athanasios, did not posses the necessary power to halt this self-destructive momentum of humanity. Only Christ's Mystery (Incarnation, Death and Resurrection) possessed the power and the authority to counter the vector force, if you will, of such momentum and push it towards the opposite direction, which is salvation.

In other words, Christ out of His great love for humanity, in an act of divine humility, becomes one of us, while at the same time maintains His godly nature. This symbiosis of divine and human nature in one person of Christ, is the most significant aspect in our salvation because Christ uses His divine nature to elevate the fallen human nature to theosis.

As you may see, Christ's Mystery is not performed in an arrogant and convenient deus ex machina manner. God condescends Himself in many ways. First, by assuming human flesh (the Creator becomes the fallen creature). Second, He was unjustly spat on, tortured, flagellated, and crucified on the Cross just for the atonement and the redemption of mankind from sin: the sin that He loathes so much.

[Elena]

Thank you to everyone who replied to my post. I'm sorry I have not answered, but I gave up message boards for lent. There are many interesting points made here, but I'm not sure they address the essence of my question. I am not asking about how Christ overcame the consequences of sin and the fall, but how could our sin have such enourmous consequences. In the face of all God's power, glory and love, something that we did, our sin, had the power to turn aside God's love to put a barrier between us that could only be properly broken down by the mystery of Christ.

Furthermore the fall had substantial real effects of the material world. All this in contradiction of God's desire or plan for the world, because humanity put their will against His.

In christ,

Elena

p.s.
I may be wrong but I thought that death was not the biggest consequence of sin, I thought death was actually a blessing lest we be forced to exsist in the fallen world until the coming of Christ.