Parental concerns regarding marriage

[Athanasius Abdullah]

A friend of mine is presently attempting to discern the will of God regarding whether to proceed with an engagement to a particular girl he has grown quite fond of.

The problem is that his parents object on account of the fact he is still a University student with approximately 3 years left to finish his degree. According to their ideology, a male should not be able to commit to marriage unless he is earning a proper salary and hence financially stable enough to support a proper living, and that since they would hence not allow for their son to get married until he has got a proper job (which would hence be no less than 3 years), they must object to an engagement at present for a three year engagement is too risky.

My friend is nothing but well-intentioned in his pursuit to figure out what God's will on the matter is, yet he realises that without his parent's consent and blessing, there is nothing he can do. He believes his parents are more concerned with worldy ideals than the will of God and would like to convince them if it be possible, that they are placing too great an emphasis on such "practical considerations" and that as legitimate as such concerns may be on a practical level, they are not significant enough to qualify as essential concerns within an Orthodox context.

Is there any advice based on patristic principles that may be offered as food for thought that my friend may consider in discussion with his parents in order to assist them in discerning the will of God on this matter?

In XC
-Athanasius

[Paul Cowan]

Dear Anthanasius,
Discerning the will of God is only possible with His grace. My father had several sayings but one was 'Love is fine, but it don't pay the bills.' Another was 'If she loves you she will wait for you.' He also did not want me rushing off to get married.

From All Saints Orthodox Church in Michigan, Father in one of his sermons talks about real friends tell you things you do not want to hear. Like the "yes" prophets that told King Ahab he would be successful if he went against the enemy. Only one prophet told him he would not return and the King threw him in jail. Guess what, he did not return.

Our true friends look out for us by telling us where the cliff is not by saying go ahead, you can jump that chasm.

Not much advice on God's will, but perhaps some food for thought for your friend to head the advice of his parents?

Paul

[Athanasius Abdullah]

Dear Paul,

I realise God's Grace is necessary to my friend's determination of God's will, but it was God Who by His Grace endowed us with reason; my friend is simply seeking to use this tool with his parents in the most effective means he can. That is not to say that he is attempting to utilise reason in the absence of other surely vital means of discerning God's will on the matter--prayer, partaking of the Holy Eucharist, dialogue with his FOC etc.--but only that he wishes to make the most of this God-given tool.

I also do not get the impression from him that he is seeking to evade an answer that is not to his liking; as I tried to stress, he is only seeking what is best and proper for him and his love at this particular time. As his parents are merely human, there is always the possibility that their objection opposes God's will, and he would simply like to work out--in dialogue with them--whether such is the case. He doesn't plan to defy his parents, he only wishes to make sure that they have considered all the relevant factors in their determination as to whether they believe it is right and proper time for him to get engaged. He is worried that they have only considered practical factors to the detriment of considering the (what-should-be) over-arching religious dimension.

Again, any patristic-based arguments or material that one can offer would be much appreciated. For example, did any of the Fathers mention the issue of age in any of their writings on marriage? Did any of the Fathers deal with wordly concerns in the determination of whether a couple should get married?

In XC
-Athanasius

[Father David Moser]

A friend of mine is presently attempting to discern the will of God regarding whether to proceed with an engagement to a particular girl he has grown quite fond of.

The problem is that his parents object on account of the fact he is still a University student with approximately 3 years left to finish his degree. According to their ideology, a male should not be able to commit to marriage unless he is earning a proper salary and hence financially stable enough to support a proper living, and that since they would hence not allow for their son to get married until he has got a proper job (which would hence be no less than 3 years), they must object to an engagement at present for a three year engagement is too risky.


Well, first I note that this is his parents ideology - but is it his? As long as he is "of age" they may or may not approve, but in the end it is his decision, not theirs. The only modification of this would be if they were supporting him. If he were to proceed against their wishes, then he would need to consider that his parents are also under no obligation to continue to support him.

Second - who says a three year engagement is too "risky". I was engaged for two prior to my marriage (and one of those years was long distance). The long engagement was extremely helpful and resulted in a much stronger marriage than a short engagement would have been. A long engagement allows the "blush" to fade and the "thrill" of the romance to dull a bit and instead allow the couple to really work on building a solid foundation for their relationship without the complications of setting up a household, discovering the joys and sorrows of a physical relationship, getting used to having another person underfoot etc.

Fr David Moser

[Athanasius Abdullah]

Dear Fr. David,


Well, first I note that this is his parents ideology - but is it his? As long as he is "of age" they may or may not approve, but in the end it is his decision, not theirs.

He is twenty-one years old, and the girl is almost twenty years old. I don't think either of their FOC's will proceed unless with the blessing of the parents. In fact I think it's Coptic Canon Law that the consent and blessing of both parents is necessary, but I'm not too sure. Nevertheless, neither of them are willing to pursue anything without their parents' support--which is commendable I guess, even if not necessary. After all the Scriptures, particularly the wisdom books, consistently testify to the divine blessings that flow from the parent's blessing.


Second - who says a three year engagement is too "risky". I was engaged for two prior to my marriage (and one of those years was long distance). The long engagement was extremely helpful and resulted in a much stronger marriage than a short engagement would have been. A long engagement allows the "blush" to fade and the "thrill" of the romance to dull a bit and instead allow the couple to really work on building a solid foundation for their relationship without the complications of setting up a household, discovering the joys and sorrows of a physical relationship, getting used to having another person underfoot etc.

That is some very valuable insight, thank you! I think the risk concern with a long engagement is that it might cause tension, frustration and irritability after a while, and that it may also increase the potential for "sexual tension" and hence physical temptation.

In XC
Athanasius

[Mary]

The problem is that his parents object on account of the fact he is still a University student with approximately 3 years left to finish his degree. According to their ideology, a male should not be able to commit to marriage unless he is earning a proper salary and hence financially stable enough to support a proper living, and that since they would hence not allow for their son to get married until he has got a proper job (which would hence be no less than 3 years), they must object to an engagement at present for a three year engagement is too risky.

His parents are right. But if he feels that these ideals are 'worldly' he can work out a 'worldly' budget to prove to his parents that he's being quite responsible and can support a family whether he is financially stable or not, then he will have their blessing to do as he wishes.




My friend is nothing but well-intentioned in his pursuit to figure out what God's will on the matter is, yet he realises that without his parent's consent and blessing, there is nothing he can do. He believes his parents are more concerned with worldy ideals than the will of God and would like to convince them if it be possible, that they are placing too great an emphasis on such "practical considerations" and that as legitimate as such concerns may be on a practical level, they are not significant enough to qualify as essential concerns within an Orthodox context.

Since when did 'practical considerations' contradict orthodoxy? Aren't we supposed to be good stewards of the resources given to us? So if we make a $1000/month, would it be worldly to live within a budget of $1,000 and more orthodox to use a credit card and no budget, because of your great faith that God will provide for you?

I can't think of anything that is practical and NOT significant enough to qualify as essential concerns within the Orthodox context... for example - I never learned how to cook while at home. My mother told me, I needed to know how to cook. I didn't pay attention. And guess what, I found out that meat, vegetables, flour, oil and spices and all the rest, are quite inedible until they're put together in some way and cooked! I also didn't learn how to use my time wisely and keep things in order. Consequently it's hard to clean my house and keep the dust away. And guess what? Only the Orthodox do house blessings! Do I want the dust in my house to be blessed?

How about doing the dishes? Is it unorthodox to have a clean sink and your dishes all done by the end of the day? He is right in that some things are less important than others. But he should also remember that he has to be faithful with the little things so he can succeed with the bigger things. Once he's married, his relationship with the love of his life, is going to change from the most important thing in the world, to little practical things. Those little things, if ignored, will grow... till they are no longer insignificant.

God's will is a BIG thing and very important. But what does it consist of? In my life, it has been made up of small things... practical things... learning how to get my head out of the clouds and get my feet on the ground... leaving fantasy where it belongs and learning to live REAL life to the fullest... You know what I love most about orthodoxy? It is so practical! You wonder, how can I learn self-control? And you're told - by fasting. How simple. How practical! How easy for anyone to practice, regardless of how great or small your IQ!

As for length of engagement - sure, there's going to be all kinds of temptations and frustrations and what nots. Perhaps those are 'little things' that will help them practice faithfulness for the bigger things that will surely come after they've been married for a while. In Ethiopia, a 3 year engagement is considered short. I've known couples who've been engaged for 10 years. Or course, I didn't ask them if they'd been faithful or not. I didn't think it was any of my business =) On the other hand, in India, a 3 month engagement is considered too long. Go figure.

In Christ,

Mary.

[Nina]

Again, any patristic-based arguments or material that one can offer would be much appreciated. For example, did any of the Fathers mention the issue of age in any of their writings on marriage? Did any of the Fathers deal with wordly concerns in the determination of whether a couple should get married?

In XC
-Athanasius

Athanasius, I remember reading something St. John Chrysostom said about the age. He encouraged early marriage (to avoid temptations etc.) I do not remember where I read it but I will look for it. Maybe it is his book "On Marriage and Family Life."

[John Charmley]

Dear Athanasius,

From Homily 81 of St. John Chrysostom:

After this age succeeds the sea of the youth, where the winds are violent as in the Aegean, lust increasing upon us. And this age especially is destitute of correction; not only because he is beset more fiercely, but also because his faults are not reproved, for both teacher and guide after that withdraw. When therefore the winds blow more fiercely, and the pilot is more feeble, and there is no helper, consider the greatness of the tempest.

After this there is again another period of life, that of men, in which the
cares of the household press upon us, when there is a wife, and marriage,
and begetting of children, and ruling of a house, and thick falling showers of
cares. Then especially both covetousness flourishes and envy.

This would imply that marriage comes after the 'sea of youth'.

Given the solemn and binding nature of the vows we take, it is not something to be undertaken lightly. Given the commandment to honour thy father and mother, I suspect your friend might be wiser to seek approval for a betrothal. Is he being a little harsh on his parents, who are most likely to be motivated by their knowledge of him and of the world - and will know the pitfalls of marrying young.


In Christ,

John

[Father David Moser]

He is twenty-one years old, and the girl is almost twenty years old. I don't think either of their FOC's will proceed unless with the blessing of the parents. In fact I think it's Coptic Canon Law that the consent and blessing of both parents is necessary, but I'm not too sure. Nevertheless, neither of them are willing to pursue anything without their parents' support--which is commendable I guess, even if not necessary. After all the Scriptures, particularly the wisdom books, consistently testify to the divine blessings that flow from the parent's blessing.


This is a very important factor as well - and I guess one I didn't state clearly enough. It is their choice what they will do - and one choice (a very commendable one, imo) would be to follow the advice of their parents. They may be the ones to choose (in today's world) but the wise man listens to the counsel of those who are wiser and more experienced than he in making his choices.

Fr David Moser

[Nina]

Again, any patristic-based arguments or material that one can offer would be much appreciated. For example, did any of the Fathers mention the issue of age in any of their writings on marriage? Did any of the Fathers deal with wordly concerns in the determination of whether a couple should get married?

In XC
-Athanasius

Homily 9 on First Timothy (Saint John Chrysostom)

"...Hear this, you fathers and mothers, that your bringing up of children shall not lose its reward. This also he says, as he proceeds,"Well reported of for good works; if she have brought up children." ( 1 Tim. v. 10.) Among other commendations he reckons this one, for it is no light praise to devote to God those children which are given them of God. For if the basis, the foundation which they lay be good, great will be their reward; as great, if they neglect it, will be their punishment. It was on account of his children that Eli perished. For he ought to have admonished them, and indeed he did admonish them, but not as he ought; but from his unwillingness to give them pain he destroyed both himself and them. Hear this, you fathers, bring your children up with great care"in the nurture and admonition of the Lord." ( Eph. vi. 4.) Youth is wild, and requires many governors, teachers, directors, attendants, and tutors; and after all these, it is a happiness if it be restrained. For as a horse not broken in, or a wild beast untamed, such is youth. But if from the beginning, from the earliest age, we fix it in good rules, much pains will not be required afterwards; for good habits formed will be to them as a law. Let us not suffer them to do anything which is agreeable, but injurious; nor let us indulge them, as forsooth but children. Especially let us train them in chastity, for there is the very bane of youth. For this many struggles, much attention will be necessary. Let us take wives for them early, so that their brides may receive their bodies pure and unpolluted, so their loves will be more ardent. He that is chaste before marriage, much more will he be chaste after it; and he that practiced fornication before, will practice it after marriage."All bread," it is said, "is sweet to the fornicator." ( Ecclus. xxiii. 17.) Garlands are wont to be worn on the heads of bridegrooms, as a symbol of victory, betokening that they approach the marriage bed unconquered by pleasure. But if captivated by pleasure he has given himself up to harlots, why does he wear the garland, since he has been subdued?"

“Let each one of you in particular so love his own wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband. Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. ‘Honor your father and mother’ … And you, fathers, do not provoke your children to wrath, but bring them up in the training and admonition of the Lord.” (Ephesians, 5:33-6:2a, 4)

Please also take a look at this: "St. John Chrysostom

Duties of Parents and Children to One Another"

http://www.struggler.org/Duties%20of%20Parents.html

Athanasius,

I am just providing for you these pearls from patristic wisdom, since you explicitly asked for them and since St. John Chrysostom is one of the Fathers who dealt in his homilies with such matters.

It is wonderful that your friend needs to be informed, however the problem of your friend is a very delicate matter. Because our God who told us 'to love and honor our parents' said also that 'a man should leave his mother and father and become one with his wife'. So please have him discuss this very important issue with his priests, and try to solve everything with love and understanding without anyone getting hurt feelings, since he is in between the most important people in his life (parents and prospective spouse).

I love my parents so much that my mom, while she was alive, used to say always "There is no daughter I have ever heard of, that loves her parents like you! You should not love us so much!" However if I was in a similar situation as your friend I would consider the matter very well, because the love and respect for my parents should not interfere with my personal salvation. And if the future spouse would be a source of strength for your friend in the fight against temptations, then it is up to him to decide what is better for his soul and discuss it with parents and spiritual father/priests.

As St. John Chrysostom, in Duties of Parents... explains: "Children," he [Apostle Paul] says, "obey your parents in the Lord." This, he means to say, is what God commands you. But what then if they command foolish things? Generally a father, however foolish he may be himself, does not command foolish things. However, even in that case, the Apostle has guarded the matter by saying, "in the Lord"; that is, wherever you will not be offending against God. So that if the father be a heretic, we ought no longer to obey, because the command is not then "in the Lord."