Contemplation of the divine Logos [Archive] - Monachos.net Discussion Community

Maria Mahoney

16-02-2007, 03:22 AM

Dear Rick,

I am at work now...but I did find one quote here at Monachos dealing with this:

Antonios20-11-2005, 10:23 PM
Tim,

I believe the "science" which the Fathers gain insight to through contemplation has to do with the logoi, or inner essense or principles of things. In the Philokalia, logoi is defined in this way: "As the unitary cosmic principle, the Logos (the Second Person of the Holy Trinity) contains in Himself the multiple logoi in accordance with which all things come into existence at the times and places, and in the forms, appointed for them, each single thing thereby containing in itself the principle of its own development. It is these logoi, containing principally in the Logos and manifest in the forms of the created universe, that consititute the first or lower stage of contemplation."

In another source, it is defined as the 'divine willings' or 'creative ideas of things'.

So, this spiritual knowledge goes beyond scientific processes and deeper into the 'meanings' and 'reasons' for created things, which in their end and fulfillment lies in union with God. This is one way in which God reveals Himself and can be known in creatures and by means of creatures.

That is why one contemporary elder in recent times (I believe Father Paisios) used to astound his spritiual children when he would have these in depth and detailed discussions with visitors regarding current scientific thought and theories. He had an awareness and understanding far deeper than his 'formal' education would have granted. He would ask questions to these learned peoples which would cut right to the chase and get right to the very heart of what particular thing was being discussed, often directly to the point at which modern science had reached its limit. He didn't have to know the
exact equation or terminology or minute scientific details in order to grasp the 'logoi', or inner essence, of the topic matter.

Now, if you asked him directly what exactly genes were made of, he probably would have grinned and replied "denim".http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/happy.gif

in humility and love,
Antonios

And in my old e-mails I had a short synopsis of this issue from a book I was reading at the time:

Light of the East
by an Orthodox quantum physicist:

"-Divine Logos holds together the logoi of created things.

-The world is filled with Divine reality.

-Theology involves the spiritual intellect, which makes it possible to exercise
direct cognition of metaphysical realities and the Divine. Spiritual intellect is
detachment (apathea) from all presuppositions about God by attaching directly to God through experiential relationship with God. It is the engagement with God that disengages one from any attachments that could eventually distort the vision of God.

- Contemplations' function is to go beyond the outward appearances of sensible things or intelligible entities to the attentive soul and to "see" behind them the logoi of the things or ideas.

I hope this gives you an idea of what I mean. I add more quotes from the Philokalia later.

Fr Raphael Vereshack

16-02-2007, 03:39 AM

I read a lot of things in Orthodox writings about the contemplation of the Divine Logos in created things, but I never hear anything about it at Church. The closest I have ever heard was the Theophany sermon by a Priest 3 years ago. Why don't Priest teach us about this if it is so helpful to our deification?

Homiletics in our Orthodox seminaries often do not actively enough engage with Patristics. Consequently the style of homiletics especially in the west is often more moralistic than theological. Part of the reason for this though is often simply fear of preaching in a style that is as personal as many of the fathers. Here the personal manner of expression found in the Fathers is often mistaken for something complicated and hence intimidating for parishioners.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

Maria Mahoney

16-02-2007, 03:50 AM

Thank you Fr. Raphael.

Unfortunately, it seems that this is a central teaching of Orthodoxy...and we gather as the Church and are missing something very important here. Maybe we would not lose so many sheep to the Protestant churches if the Church would help us understand these things and not act as though they do not exist?

Maria Mahoney

16-02-2007, 05:12 AM

Maria Mahoney

16-02-2007, 06:37 AM

Actually, I did not mean to get on about what the Priests teach and don't teach... I am just happy to find this site and to talk to people who are excited about Orthodoxy! A place where people talk about Deification, the Jesus Prayer, Praxis, the Fathers, and EVERYTHING! I feel like a kid in a candy shop. :o)))

Kosta

16-02-2007, 07:59 AM

Rick H.

16-02-2007, 01:52 PM

Dear Maria,

I know what you mean when you say "kid in a candy store" that is the way I feel at times here, although now, come to think of it, as an adult I can be a happy camper in a book store with a coffee shop.

Thank you for what you have provided so far. This is good. I am looking forward to reading the Philokalia contributions when you may have time.

Peace and Love,
Rick

Herman Blaydoe

16-02-2007, 02:23 PM

1 Corinthians 3:2 I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able;

I suspect that for many priests and homilists, this can be is a very frustrating experience. I have heard some wonderfully sermons where many eyes in the congregation simply glazed over. The priest must preach to everyone, and not everyone is at the same place. Perhaps some priests go too much for the lowest common denominator, I don't know, but many do try to give spiritual "meat" to their flocks, as much as they are able to bear it. But even I have trouble assimilating the Fathers, I too, often prefer "milk" to "meat", prefering pedestrian paths to the scary thought of soaring in the celestial heights. But that is just me, I hope. The pool of Orthodoxy is deep indeed. Those who are ready to swim in the deep end should not be prevented by any means, but I hope they can find the charity in their hearts not to distain those of us waddling in the kiddie pool.

Your wading servant,
Herman

John Charmley

16-02-2007, 03:33 PM

Dear Herman,

Thank you for these thoughts - we are all wading, the difference in Orthodoxy is that we are wading whilst standing on the shoulders of spiritual giants.

In Christ,

John

Fr Raphael Vereshack

16-02-2007, 04:23 PM

Dear Fr. Raphael,

I believe it was you who mentioned the "deified space of St. Seraphim" ... isn't the whole purpose of an Orthodox Christian life to enter into the deified space at all times? I know we do this during the Divine Liturgy, (though few people perceive it) ... but it seems we are called to live this way ... to restore creation itself to a deified state ... the work that was begun at the Baptism of Christ in the Jordan. How can we fulfill our calling if the Priests do not teach us and help us?

Dear Maria,

I like what Herman has posted above about this although as priests we usually find the challenge to be positive. After all at all times we must strive to talk or communicate to those before us. And most priests as I say find this to be something positive & part of the pastoral call itself. So certainly homilies come under this category since it is a personal means we have of communicating Christ's word to our people.

What I was more addressing was an attitude found in our seminaries that we can absolve ourselves from the responsibility of preaching such things as St Gregory Palamas's energy/essence distinctions because they are too complicated for our people to grasp. So, 'let's keep it simple' becomes a common idea and here's where the moralizing I think creeps in.

I don't at all want to be categorical about this since the message we need to convey in any case comes in all shapes and colours. But I would just add the following two comments:

i) if we look at Patristic homilies given before people we often see that these are way over people's head in a way. But this didn't stop the Fathers and apparently people were receptive enough that they didn't throw St Gregory Palamas or St Gregory the Theologian out the door (at least most of the time they didn't) over what they were hearing. So challenging our people is not completely out of order. But neither is encouraging our people through the manner in which we give our homilies to look up in a heavenly direction. As long as this is not just trying to be vainly intellectual our words have to point up and beyond where we all are from time to time.

ii) a second point is that if we absolve ourselves of theological content in our homilies than really this is a literal closing of the door to our people of the theological experience which the Fathers had. Of course we have to shape the way in which for example we explain St Gregory Palamas' essence/energy distinction. But if we are saying that St Gregory's very point is above people's heads and not for them to grasp then we are saying that St Gregory's point does not apply to the Church as a whole. And to my way of thinking at least this mean St Gregory's point is not truly theological; it's only intellectual. But this means then that the challenge is not just with the pastors of the people; it's equally with the people of the pastors.

In any case we should not absolutely rely on others for this. Priests as all members of the Church spend a life time finding balance and the appropriateness of what is found in the tool box which the Church provides. All of us in a sense strive in a similar way & have this calling.

As for the sense of not being appropriately fed though I would say that in general we have to learn to be constantly open to what God provides for us while struggling to learn how to feed others ourselves.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

Maria Mahoney

16-02-2007, 09:24 PM

Dear Rick,

I searched through the four volumes of the Philokalia last night and found many, many, many teachings about logoi ... if I posted them all here, I think the moderators would throw me off the site. I will e-mail some of them to you. For now, I will start with just a few quotes here:

Volume Four

Nikitas Stithatos:

"When through the practice of the virtues we attain a spiritual
knowledge of created things we have achieved the first stage on the path of deification. We achieve the second stage when - initiated through the contemplation of the spiritual essences of created things - we perceive the hidden mysteries of God. We achieve the third stage when we are united and interfused with the primordial light. It is then that we reach the goal of all ascetic and contemplative activity."

"The Logos justifiably rebukes the tardiness of those who drag out their time in the practice of virtues and do not wish to advance beyond this and rise to the higher state of contemplation. 'Fools and slow of heart,' He calls them (Luke 24:25) - slow to place their trust in Him who can reveal the meaning of the contemplation of the inner principles of the created world to all who spiritually explore the depths of the Spirit. For not to wish to progress from
the initial struggles to those that are more advanced, and to pass from the 'exterior' or literal meaning of Holy Scripture to its inner or spiritual meaning, is a sign of the sluggish soul, one with no taste for spiritual profit and extremely resentful about its own advancement. Such a soul, since its lamp has gone out, will not only be told to go buy oil from those who sell it; but, finding the bridal chamber closed to it, it will also hear the words, 'Go away, I do not know you or whence you come' (cf. Matt. 25:9, 12)."

"We must ever progress according to the ranks and rungs of a life
dedicated to wisdom and rise assiduously towards the higher world, always advancing towards God and never static in our aspiration towards supernal beauty. We must advance from ascetic practice to the contemplation of the essences of created beings, and thence to the mystical knowledge of the divine Logos."

Thank you EVERYONE for all your valuable replies!

Rick H.

17-02-2007, 05:31 AM

Dear Maria,

Thank you very much for sending me the email with the Philokalia passages and for this introduction! I would like to try to communicate to you clearly that while I have never been exposed to this Logos/logoi concept, I do have a very high level of interest in what is being said. Because, as far as I can see, based on what you have shared, it is perfectly parallel to my personal experience and what I believe to be true intuitively. So, to be perfectly honest with you, I am somewhat biased here, because I want this to be a genuine Orthodox approach just as it is presented. I have been somewhat reluctant in the past to share my experience/intuition in this area due to the significant overlap with Vedantic thought (as it relates to the way of negation seeking experience). In fact, possibly as you know, if it was not for the dualism presented in this construct we would have to consider the possibility that just as monasticism is not a Christian or even a Jewish invention, this model was borrowed from Indian Philosophy. That is if I am indeed interpreting the presence of a dualism correctly. Thank you for your patience and kindness here, you are a very good educator.

I see at once that the Logos and logoi (if these are in fact transliterations from the Greek) are presented with nominative masculine singular and plural endings 'os' and 'oi,' and the Logos has an upper case 'L' whereas the logoi has a lower case 'l.' So dropping the gender consideration, I think it is safe to say that this construct quickly sets up a singular divine aspect in relation to a plurality of non-divine aspects or a classic dualism presented in the form of Creator and creation (which separates it from a Vedantic approach), or in the context of an historic Orthodox approach one of the second person of the Trinity, Christ in relation to man/world. And, when you share:

Theology involves the spiritual intellect, which makes it possible to exercise direct cognition of metaphysical realities and the Divine. Spiritual intellect is detachment (apathea) from all presuppositions about God by attaching directly to God through experiential relationship with God. It is the engagement with God that disengages one from any attachments that could eventually distort the vision of God.

firstly, I am drawn to the phrase "detachment (apathea) from all presuppositions" because we are now moving away from a cataphatic theological method to one of negation seeking experience via. "the spiritual intellect, which makes it possible to exercise direct cognition of metaphysical realities and the Divine." And, here again, if I am still tracking with this, we are saying the direct cognition of the Divine is to be associated with the Creator and the metaphysical is to be associated with the creation.

And, I can feel my eyes beginning to close for the night now . . . so I hope this makes sense enough for you to confirm or correct my perception of this concept to this point in theory before we may consider it further in practice. Actually, I think the last time I tried to make a late night post on monachos I ended up paying the price for it :) But, I think I will go ahead and hit the send button on this one and hope that it provides a way to move this excellent conversation forward. Thanks again for all of your efforts here Maria. If this goes the way I think it might, then if understood properly, this could really be a real 'help' to those of use seeking to put on Christ. Sometimes even with the best of intentions and the desire to operate by means of a foundationalism we do end up with nothing more than a web of belief as it relates to our personal spiritual practice. But, I guess that is the question here though isn't it?

Shalom-Shalom,
Rick

Truth leading reason

Owen Jones

17-02-2007, 03:36 PM

The Philokalia is, of course, written by ascetics primarily for ascetics. With that said, it is the ideal for all Christians, and it is possible for all of us to find asceticism in our own back yard, so to speak. The purpose of asceticism is, to put it in modernist psychological terms, to get in touch with your own suffering. To suffer voluntarily a crucifixion of the self, of the ego. Of course, in traditional terms, it is in obedience to the commandmants. That is the common thread throughout the Philokalia, obedience to the commandments. In order to successfully obey the commandments, we cannot rely on will. If we base our desire to obey on will power we will surely fail. This leads to despondency. Through the ascetic virtues, we discover the effacement of will that allows God's power to do the work for us. In modern terms, the ego gets out of the way (one cute device: ego is "edging God out.") This is an asceticism that results in changes in how we perceive and understand things. Things not just as concepts, but actual things. Things look different. Their processes look different. Because of a transformation of perception.

So the "problem" with preaching is that the seminaries base their teaching on theological content and historical content and Biblical content, as if these things could possibly have any content at all, absent a transformation of perception. Hence, there is an inherent lack of perception between preaching and hearing. Now, what is the "locus" of that connection? It has to be on the level of some common experience that everyone can relate to. There is a range of experiences with which we can all relate, if given the right articulation (with feeling). One is pathos. Everyone suffers. Everyone can relate to suffering. So if one has not become an expert, so to speak, in how to suffer, there is a problem in relating and communicating and evoking. The next experience everyone can relate to is eros (a common thread in the Philokalia). Eros is intense longing or desiring something that we do not possess. It can never be satisfied. For someone who is scientifically minded and wants proofs, this is the proof of God's existence, so to speak. (In the formal sense, God has no existence, but we use it for shorthand purposes). We have many examples in our experience of eros. We are constantly desirous of things, material things, the gratification which rich foods provides, the satisfaction of sexual desire, money, wealth, power, prestige, honor, etc. All of these things are a misdirection of true eros, which can only be satisfied, and then never fully, by the desire for God. Not just to please God, or to do the right thing, but a desire for communion with God. We cannot simply make this shift in our erotic desire to the true object through an act of will, or some decision, but through practice of the virtues which crucify our worldly desires and give us an ecstatic union with God. Which leads into the true meaning of ecstacy. If our religious life is just a chore, if there is no ecstatic experience (defined in the Philokalia as a going out from self to God), then our hearts will fail whenever we are tempted by Satan. That ecstacy is most obviously present in worship, but we will not experience it in worship absent the "work" that precedes worship. So I stand in Church thinking about worldly things all the time, worries, concerns, planning stuff, things I need to do on my wish list for my life, or become filled with guilt and shame for all my failures and weaknesses and frustrations in trying to be good.

Unfortunately, things at this level are often foreign to our clergy who are taught that there is theological content absent a range of experiences with depth and feeling.

I have thought about a 4-step program to assist people in grasping this experientially.

1. Struggle
2. Surrender
3. Virtue
4. Ecstacy
(repeat indefinitely)

Fr Raphael Vereshack

17-02-2007, 05:27 PM

For many years there has been a grave disjunction between the kind of 'learning' which occurs in our parishes and our spiritual lives & the kind of learning which the seminary promotes. While it is not correct to say that seminaries stress only outward or intellectual knowledge about the Faith it is correct that only very rarely has a conscious connection been drawn between spiritual life as it actually is lived within the Church and how classes are taught.

As Owen says, the stress has been on content more than transformation of perception. It is here probably that our seminaries have been a most problematic leaven for the whole Church. For once a person engages for so many years in content instead of inner ascetic transformation, he/she is easily enticed by passing religious fads which have little or nothing to do with Church life as it is being led by most within the Church. What then happens is that the priest either brings to the parish the preoccupations of his mind as shaped by the seminary where considerable harm or conflict results. Or else (much more frequently) he basically sets aside the focus of his preoccupations which he learnt in seminary and starts all over again once within the parish. Here we aren't talking about the things learnt in seminary (most priests keep this for future reference) but rather the spiritual framework in which this is conveyed.

So, going beyond oneself is not usually the spiritual setting for seminary classes. And this is so even when both teachers & students are edifying examples of this. Hence what goes on in one's spiritual life or during seminary church services and confession (all of this is a very important aspect of most seminaries) is not directly tied to the classroom. Thus for example in homiletics it is still very rare that the obvious 'ecstatic' way in which the Fathers convey themselves is spoken of within the classroom as an image of what preaching should be. Instead the emphasis is on conveying content.

In the past ten years however our seminaries have I think at least begun to deal with these issues (and to be fair my 'own' seminary whose classes I have never attended could have been different all along). In the seminary I attended in the late 80s and early 90s change first began because students began objecting so strongly to how courses were being taught. (eg in our seminary JEDP theory was taught no questions asked even though almost no one really read Scripture with such theories in mind). Then new teachers began arriving who had been formed by spiritual fathers (our new Scripture teacher was a spiritual child of Fr Sophrony- this was the first time in the seminary that allegory & typology were consciously referred to as models of Orthodox exegesis). New bishops also came on the scene who encouraged such changes within the seminaries.

So although we must continually question the relationship between what and how we teach in our seminaries & what occurs within the rest of the Church I am hopeful about what is going on right now.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

So the "problem" with preaching is that the seminaries base their teaching on theological content and historical content and Biblical content, as if these things could possibly have any content at all, absent a transformation of perception. Hence, there is an inherent lack of perception between preaching and hearing. Now, what is the "locus" of that connection? It has to be on the level of some common experience that everyone can relate to. There is a range of experiences with which we can all relate, if given the right articulation (with feeling). One is pathos. Everyone suffers. Everyone can relate to suffering. So if one has not become an expert, so to speak, in how to suffer, there is a problem in relating and communicating and evoking. The next experience everyone can relate to is eros (a common thread in the Philokalia). Eros is intense longing or desiring something that we do not possess. It can never be satisfied. For someone who is scientifically minded and wants proofs, this is the proof of God's existence, so to speak. (In the formal sense, God has no existence, but we use it for shorthand purposes). We have many examples in our experience of eros. We are constantly desirous of things, material things, the gratification which rich foods provides, the satisfaction of sexual desire, money, wealth, power, prestige, honor, etc. All of these things are a misdirection of true eros, which can only be satisfied, and then never fully, by the desire for God. Not just to please God, or to do the right thing, but a desire for communion with God. We cannot simply make this shift in our erotic desire to the true object through an act of will, or some decision, but through practice of the virtues which crucify our worldly desires and give us an ecstatic union with God. Which leads into the true meaning of ecstacy. If our religious life is just a chore, if there is no ecstatic experience (defined in the Philokalia as a going out from self to God), then our hearts will fail whenever we are tempted by Satan. That ecstacy is most obviously present in worship, but we will not experience it in worship absent the "work" that precedes worship. So I stand in Church thinking about worldly things all the time, worries, concerns, planning stuff, things I need to do on my wish list for my life, or become filled with guilt and shame for all my failures and weaknesses and frustrations in trying to be good.

Unfortunately, things at this level are often foreign to our clergy who are taught that there is theological content absent a range of experiences with depth and feeling.

I have thought about a 4-step program to assist people in grasping this experientially.

1. Struggle
2. Surrender
3. Virtue
4. Ecstacy
(repeat indefinitely)

[/QUOTE]

Maria Mahoney

17-02-2007, 08:05 PM

Dear Rick,

You are welcome for the quotes, I hope they will be helpful to you.

After reading many posts here at Monachos, I feel a deep resonance
with many who offer their inner gifts here.

I am not here to educate, confirm, or correct anyone. I am here to discuss spiritual concerns with people who I find to be insightful, intelligent, and most of all spiritually minded. I hope to learn from these discussions. Discussions are like unopened presents. ;)

Your deconstruction of the words Logos/logoi seems to make sense to me.
From what little I understand about the contemplation of logoi, it seems that although everything appears to be separate, the outcome of the contemplation of logoi is that we find that it is all one. We find unity. We find that the divine Logos holds together the logoi of all things. While we start out contemplating catahatically, we are moved by divine Grace, in the Holy Spirit, to an apophatic state. Of course I did not send you any quotes that deal with the stage that follows contemplation of divine essences, which is apophatic and bestowed by Grace (although, they are certainly in the Philokalia).

The last quote that I sent to you seems to point to this:

St. Gregory Palamas:

"The intellect that has been accounted worthy of this light also transmits to the body that is united with it many clear tokens of the divine beauty, acting as an intermediary between divine grace and the grossness of the flesh and conferring to the flesh the power to do what lies beyond its power. This gives birth to a godlike, unmatched and stable state of virtue as well as to a
disposition that has no or little inclination to sin. It is then that the intellect is illumined by the divine Logos who enables it to perceive clearly the inner essences - the logoi - of created things and on account of its purity reveals to it the mysteries of nature. In this way, through relationships of
correspondence the perceiving and trusting intelligence is raised up to the apprehension of supranatural realities - an apprehension that the Father of the Logos communicates through an immaterial union.... In this way they are restored to their original state and assimilated to their Archtype, grace renewing in them their pristine and inconceivable beauty."

I think we should save the discussion on apophatic contemplation for later...
or perhaps you should like to start another thread on that topic. ;)
There is SO much to discuss... apophatic contemplation, quantuum physics,
psychological principles, science, energy; and I can see that you are
anxious to jump into everything ... your mind is shooting out roots and
branches, and I am glad you feel inspired and zealous by what you have
read - this too is how I feel when I read the Scriptures and the Fathers, I am on fire and every atom of my being is excited! But for now, let us focus on the topic. I feel like we need to back up a bit and look at the quotes ... you have read more than the others have had an opportunity to see here on this thread, and so I think that what you are saying might not make sense to others participating in this discussion.
I think that just knowing there is futher development after the stage of
praxis .... that there is something known as contemplation of the divine
essences (which you don't hear about in church) - that this will be
a help for some who feel stuck in a spiriual loop. Of course, everything
ends up as a personal belief - because that is the nature of man. :)
But, hopefully, it will be a belief that leads to deification! :))))

Maria Mahoney

17-02-2007, 11:36 PM

Dear Owen,

Thank you for your most wonderful reply!

Asceticism? I thought it is called life? ;))

I agree there has to be a connection, and suffering and ecstasy are
certainly two familiar concepts ... but one needs to move above the practice of ascesis ... into the nous ... and the Fathers give us the key to this:

---Quote---
The Philokalia

Volume Two

St. Theodoros:

"...if we have to use the senses, we should use them in order to grasp
the Creator through His creation, seeing Him reflected in created
things as the sun is reflected in water, since in their inner beings they
are in varying degrees images of the primal cause of all."
---End Quote---

I know in my experience, for the first 15 years in Orthodoxy, ecstasy
was at a minimal level (compared to what I experience now), though at the time it seemed intense. But everything is realative. What moved me to the intense ecstasy I now experience was the opening up of the hidden meanings in Scripture:

---Quote---
St. Maximos:

"The mystery of the incarnation of the Logos is the key to all the
arcane symbolism and typology in the Scriptures, and in addition gives us
the knowledge of created things, both visible and intelligible. He who
apprehends the mystery of the cross and the burial apprehends the inward essences of created things; while he who is initiated into the inexpressible power of the resurrection apprehends the purpose for which God first established everything."
---End Quote---

I do like your 4 step program... but you might consider a fifth step?
;)))

---Quote---
Volume One

Evagrios:

"We practice virtues in order to achieve contemplation of the inner
essences (logoi) of created things, and from this we pass to contemplation
of the Logos who gives them their being; and He manifests Himself when
we are in the state of prayer."
---End Quote---

Maria Mahoney

18-02-2007, 12:51 AM

Another book that opened my eyes to Scripture was The Luminous Eye by St. Ephrem.

Rick H.

18-02-2007, 01:27 AM

Dear Maria,

May I say, what a good attitude:

I am not here to educate, confirm, or correct anyone. I am here to discuss spiritual concerns with people who I find to be insightful, intelligent, and most of all spiritually minded. I hope to learn from these discussions. Discussions are like unopened presents. ;)

and, yes "unopened presents" as you say, very good. So I will try to hold my horses here, it is as you have said. I do have the four volume Philokalia set
(faber & faber 1995 paperback set) translated from the Greek and edited by Palmer, Sherrard, and Ware. So in the future if you would be so kind as to include page numbers I would like to read these passages in their context. Context is King isn't it?

Also, I have started a thread not too long ago called The Heart of Salvation! if you have time to monitor this, you may see some things of interest there. I am attempting to get a discussion going about a personal spiritual practice there, but it is kind of like pulling hen's teeth so far. However, I guess as long as it remains more fun than a good poke in the eye with a sharp stick then I will continue. There may be some points of intersection between this thread and the "Heart" thread in the future.

The book that you mentioned:

Light from the East: Theology, Science, and the Eastern Orthodox Tradition (Theology and the Sciences) by Alexei V. Nesteruk

looks fantastic! I read a few reviews of this work and I think I will use my last Borders gift card/token that I have left from Christmas on this one. I have a vacation coming up where my family goes to a cabin where I take my espresso maker and a few books (yeah, I am such a party guy) and I am going to try to time it so this book goes with me. Thanks.

I'm not sure what direction you want to go here. Maybe you want to take one of the most meaningful passages to you in the Philokalia (and again please provide pg. numbers if possible) and we can discuss it in detail and attempt to see what we can draw from it. Or possibly, you have another idea? I am interested in trying to flesh out what is being said as it relates to meditation and contemplation. From the reading that I have done there are different schools of thought here.

Thanks again!

Rick

Maria Mahoney

18-02-2007, 01:47 AM

Dear Rick,

I will read the posts on Heart of Salvation... it looks like a good one. Maybe people are a little reserved to post their personal spiritual practices for fear of being judged (good or bad), and/or for fear of emulation, and/or they just feel it is a very private matter.

I think you will be absolutely fascinated by Light From the East ... I know I was! BTW, thank you for getting the author for me, I am terrible about authors...page #"s... and such. I did read a wonderful, wonderful book, very simply written, but that explains the Orthodox teachings concerning the heart in a most simple yet profound way. It is called The Heart, and was written by an abbot in a Greek monastery. I sent my only copy to two friends in another state as a Chrismation gift. I don't have any other information. I will do my best to include page #'s in the future.

What are the schools of thought that you mention?

I don't have any planned direction for this discussion. I just would like to stay on topic.

Maria Mahoney

20-02-2007, 12:31 AM

Oh, I guess I should caution anyone entering this discussion with the warning from the Philokalia, Volume One, Page 15:

"...Although most of the text in the Philokalia are not specifically doctrinal, they all pre-suppose doctrine even when they do not state it. Moreover, this doctrine entails an ecclesiology. It entails a particular understanding of the Church and a view of salvation inextricably bound up with its sacramental and liturgical life. ..... To attempt to practise it, therefore, apart from active participation ...... may well have consequences of a disasterous kind, mental and physical."

What types of disasters of the mental, physical, and spiritual kind could come from these studies without a spiritual guide you may ask? The physical ascesis, practiced without guidance could lead to physical death and mental illness, hallucinations, and delusions. Spiritual disasters of the nature of polytheism and idolatry, gnosticism and other heresies, and prelest are also possiblities.

Maria Mahoney

20-02-2007, 12:31 AM

Light From The East by Alexei V. Nesteruk has been one of the most important and valuable books I have ever read. As I understand it, Alexei Nesteruk asserts that quantum physics and theology merge into one at the point of inner essences and -

He says (sorry page # unknown):

"As Creator, God is always at the heart of each thing, maintaining it in being. On the level of scientific inquiry, we discern certain processes or sequences of cause and effect. On the level of spiritual vision, which does not contradict science, but looks beyond it, we discern everywhere the creative energies of God, upholding all that is forming the innermost essence of all things. But while present everywhere in the world, God is not to be identified with the world."

An interesting theory from early quantuum physics is:

"One of Bohr's most startling assertions is that the tangible reality of our everyday lives is really a kind of illusion, like a holographic image. Underlying it is a deeper order of existence, a vast and more primary level of reality that gives birth to all the objects and appearances of our physical world in much the same way that a piece of holographic film gives birth to a hologram. Bohm calls this deeper level of reality the implicate (which means 'enfolded') order, and he refers to our own level of existence as the explicate, or unfolded order." - from The Holographic Universe by Michael Talbot.

Perhaps this as a scientific way of stumbling on the relationship between Logos and logoi?

I understand now, in a new way, how we can create our own reality or choose to enter into true reality in God. We can enter into God's reality, and the door to that reality is the contemplation of inner essences.

Unfortunately, most people create their own realities everyday (without even knowing they are doing it) and trap themselves there! Ascetic practice is the key to breaking free from our false, created realities ... people go through intense ascetic work, and attain a state of purity, but then they don't know where to go from there. They are only left with a void ... a "what do I do now?" attitude. Finding nothing, they simply slip back into their sinfulness, missing the mark they were supposed to aim for = contemplation of divine essences ~~ Sinfulness defined here as missing the mark, so that by not moving forward, but merely staying in ascesis, they are missing the mark. The Church teaches them to go through the process all over again and they are trapped in a spiritual loop. But, it seems to me that what we are really supposed to do after our hearts are purified through ascetic work is to aspire to "angelic thought"...

The Philokalia

Volume Four

Nikitas Stithatos:

"When through the practice of the virtues we attain a spiritual knowledge of created things we have achieved the first stage on the path of deification. We achieve the second stage when - initiated through the contemplation of the spiritual essences of created things - we perceive the hidden mysteries of God. We achieve the third stage when we are united and interfused with the primordial light. It is then that we reach the goal of all ascetic and
contemplative activity." P148.

Volume One

Evagrios:

"We have learnt, after much observation, to recognize the difference between angelic thoughts, human thoughts, and thoughts that come from demons. Angelic thought is concerned with the true nature of things and with searching out of their spiritual essences (inner essences)." P. 42.

True reality lies behind the curtain of our created reality. We have to detach ourselves from the illusions we create. Only then can our purified heart be opened to God ... For only the pure of heart shall see God.

"All creatures are balanced upon the creative Word of God, as if upon a bridge of diamond; above them is the abyss of the divine infinitude, below them that of their own nothingness." Philaret of Moscow.

Rick H.

20-02-2007, 03:53 PM

Dear Maria,

This is the fifth response that I have keyed up so far. Hopefully, this one will be a keeper :) . . . Maybe the approach here is going to have to be one of just thinking out loud in order to get a toe-hold. When my daughters are having trouble getting a term paper going, I tell them to just start typing and get some words on paper and then go from there. So maybe, I should try that myself here, and hopefully not compose something too low caliber. And, when in doubt go to Paul . . .

Okay, the subjects of "groping" and "being" come to mind as Paul used the expression on Mar's Hill in Athens:

NAS Acts 17:16 Now while Paul was waiting for them at Athens, his spirit was being provoked within him as he was beholding the city full of idols. 17 So he was reasoning in the synagogue with the Jews and the God-fearing Gentiles, and in the market place every day with those who happened to be present. 18 And also some of the Epicurean and Stoic philosophers were conversing with him. And some were saying, "What would this idle babbler wish to say?" Others, "He seems to be a proclaimer of strange deities,"-- because he was preaching Jesus and the resurrection. 19 And they took him and brought him to the Areopagus, saying, "May we know what this new teaching is which you are proclaiming? 20 "For you are bringing some strange things to our ears; we want to know therefore what these things mean." 21 (Now all the Athenians and the strangers visiting there used to spend their time in nothing other than telling or hearing something new.) 22 And Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said, "Men of Athens, I observe that you are very religious in all respects. 23 "For while I was passing through and examining the objects of your worship, I also found an altar with this inscription, 'TO AN UNKNOWN GOD.' What therefore you worship in ignorance, this I proclaim to you. 24 "The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands; 25 neither is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all life and breath and all things; 26 and He made from one, every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times, and the boundaries of their habitation, 27 that they should seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;

28 for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, 'For we also are His offspring.'

Verse 28 can easily be translated, for in Him we live and move and have our being because this is what is being communicated to the philosophers who Paul is speaking to. Paul, first speaks about how they know, their theory of knowing, their epistemology. Then he speaks to them about how they live, their theory of being, their ontology.

But, not before he speaks to them about the creation and the Creator! Look at what is happening here! Talk about Christian Apologetics at its finest. Paul begins speaking to them about the way they know by pointing to the unknown god which they acknowledge. This very passage is another reason why I took the name of Paul at my chrismation.

Look at Paul's starting place here as he shares the good news of the Gospel of Jesus Christ to this 'tough room.' His starting place is them right where they are. Chances are these men were all heavily influenced by the ancient Greek philosophers. Especially, Plato, who it seems borrowed from the Sanaatan Dharma in general and Vedantic and Buddhist thought in particular. Which takes us to another area as it relates to the Platonic influence on the Church Fathers--but that for another day. But, look at what Paul is saying here as he goes right in and cuts to the chase with these guys who were no dummies. He cuts right to the quick here with these guys who knew all about the Logos.

And, maybe that's enough for now except to say that science is a grouping in my mind in the exact same way that those that Paul is speaking about in this passage (which would have included what were considered the timeless truths of the Sanaatan Dharma even back then by some). Read this again if you need to, it was engineered to be this way. This grouping was the Divine Design by the God of Paul. So, all of what is being said by Paul here (according to Luke) can be considered in different ways I think. But, as it relates to grouping for God in relation to the topic of this thread I am offering it now.

"'In' Christ,"

Rick

Truth leading reason
[as in Acts 17]

Maria Mahoney

21-02-2007, 01:08 AM

Many of books have been written about Theosis (deification). Many Homilies as well. The most important thing though is not to read or listen about Theosis, but experience it. Theosis is easy to read or talk about but hard to put into practise, especially in todays modern world.

Prayer, fasting, almsgiving, imitating Christ, and partaking in the sacramental Life of the Church, can help all of us in our process of Theosis.

Yes! These things are definitely a beginning of the experience ... and we must do these for purification .... the Church teaches us these things very clearly, very well, and at all times. What is missing though? There is more ... there are three stages purification - illumination - deification. The Church seems to stop at purification, and yet, according to the Philokalia there is another part that we are responsible to seek out ... and prayer is part of that, which may or may not lead to contemplation of divine essences in created things ... but it seems that this contemplation is what leads one onward to the third part?

We are constructing deified selves and a deified world

The Philokalia
St. Maximos:

"He who uses his intellect to apprehend the visible world contemplates
the intelligible world. He imbues his sense-perception with the
noetic realities that he contemplates, and informs his intellect
with the inner essences of what he perceives with the senses.
In various ways he transfers the structure of the noetic world
to the world of the senses; and conversely he transfers the complex
unity of the sensible world to the intellect. He apprehends the sensible
world in the noetic world, since he has transferred into the intellect
the inner essences of what can be perceived by the senses; and in
the sensible world he perceives the noetic world, for he has adeptly
harnessed his intellect with its archetypes to his sense-perception."
P. 258.

Mankind stands between two worlds - the Spiritual and the Material Creation. Our work in creation is to transform the universe in Christ. We are creatures of Prayer and Contemplation. In prayer, we co-operate with God being transformed through Theosis, into the mystical Body of Christ, then our inner being offers glory to God, being joined to the mystical sacrifice of Christ. In Contemplation, we co-operate with God in transforming the universe - we raise creation up to God in contemplating the inner being, (the essence, finding the fingerprint of God and receiving enlightenment), of God's creation. God reveals Himself to us, and we raise creation up to God by receiving His revelation.We elevate creation to a higher plane of existence, making it nobler, sanctifying it as a holy vessel of God;It becomes a bearer of light.

The reverse would be to use it for self-gratification, evil, and sinful purposes. The elevated, nobler, sanctified creation then glorifies the Creator and offers its' inner, essential glory to God. Then we stand unified in the Body of Christ, offering glory to God, as a new creation in Christ, as God reveals Himself to us, from one glory to another ... eternally.

Maria Mahoney

21-02-2007, 01:21 AM

Dear Fr. Raphael,

In an earlier post you stated:

"if we look at Patristic homilies given before people we often see that these are way over people's head in a way."

I really have to disagree with this. The Priests are not preaching to shepherds and homemakers these days ... this is the Information Age. What you and I struggled for decades to learn, kids have it piped into their lives from the cradle. As one person told me ... he "does theology in his sleep". I think many people are capable of grasping the concept of Essence and energies that Palamas left as a treasure to the Church. I think the sheep are starving!

Herman talks about wading, but I think alot of us are drowning, because we are not being taught. Many people in the world feel that the world is on the verge of a spiritual enlightenment that history has never before witnessed.

I hear alot about getting a spiritual father ... well, they are not all that abundant ... and if one can find a good one, before a wolf destroys them, it is miraculous. There are wolves out there ... manipulators ... angels of light! We aren't to practice things without a guide? Then let the Priests guide us.

Forgive me Fr. Raphael, I don't mean to be harsh, but we really do need a change.

In Christ,
Maria

Paul Cowan

21-02-2007, 06:53 AM

I hear alot about getting a spiritual father ... well, they are not all that abundant ... and if one can find a good one, before a wolf destroys them, it is miraculous. There are wolves out there ... manipulators ... angels of light! We aren't to practice things without a guide? Then let the Priests guide us.

Dear sister Maria,
I have to disagree with you. There are more spiritual fathers than there are parishes. And they are good, very good. I admit I am not the traveled pilgrim as many others here, but I have seen a few parishes with more than one priest. They were Father confessors also.

I of course do not know your history within the Church, but I do see Holy men trying their hardest to teach a stiff necked people. I am not the easiest taught student. I fail to do alot what my spiritual father tells me. If I were to listen to him closer and DO what he says, my life would be better off. He does have a lot of wisdom.

Are there priests out there more experienced than others? of course. Are there some out there that have their own agendas? Perhaps. Though with the heirarchy of the church as it is, I doubt they could stay hidden long.

Your post eludes that you do not have a spiritual father. Why not use the one that heads your parish? Whether he is good or not is irrelevent. God sees your heart as well as his and will confirm your obedience to him rather than your doubt of him. (like I said, I do not know your history).

In another thread someone mentioned why the priests don't use Deacons more. My reply was why don't the laymen step up to be Deacons. Forgive my boldness to you, a stranger, but why don't you put yourself under a priest to be guided?

in humble respect
Paul

Fr Raphael Vereshack

21-02-2007, 09:37 PM

Dear Maria,

When I wrote "if we look at Patristic homilies given before people we often see that these are way over people's head in a way," what I meant was that the Holy Frs constantly urged their people to transcend and die to themselves in the way they lived & thought. This attitude towards others is what comes through in their words as we have them in their written homilies.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

Maria Mahoney

22-02-2007, 04:04 AM

Dear Fr. Raphael,

Thank you for your clarification ... I am sorry I misunderstood what you meant.

In Christ,
Maria

Maria Mahoney

22-02-2007, 05:53 AM

1 Corinthians, chapter 13

8: Love never ends; as for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away.
9: For our knowledge is imperfect and our prophecy is imperfect;
10: but when the perfect comes, the imperfect will pass away.

And the Perfect HAS come and IS Christ and WILL BE ever after ... there is no other.

All of the religions and knowledge before Christ were imperfect ... seeking to grasp what we are given freely in Christ. We have to let go of the imperfect and hold tightly to Christ and His Gospel. He was before all religions and knowledge, and is, and is to come.

We have to focus our energy into this contemplation and not allow our energy to be dispersed in that which is imperfect. This contemplation will lead us into apophatic contemplation and deification by opening us to the Grace of God.

Volume Four

Nikitas Stithatos:

"Prior to His creation of all things out of nothing, the Creator possessed in Himself the knowledge and the intrinsic principles and essences of all that He brought into existence, for He is sovereign over the ages and has foreknowledge of them all. Correspondingly, when in His own image He fashioned man as the sovereign of creation, He endowed him with the knowledge and the intrinsic principles and essences of all created things."

Colossians, chapter 1

15: He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation;
16: for in him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or authorities -- all things were created through him and for him.
17: He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
18: He is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning, the first-born from the dead, that in everything he might be pre-eminent.
19: For in him all the fulness of God was pleased to dwell,
20: and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.
21: And you, who once were estranged and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds,
22: he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and irreproachable before him,
23: provided that you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which has been preached to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister.
24: Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church,
25: of which I became a minister according to the divine office which was given to me for you, to make the word of God fully known,
26: the mystery hidden for ages and generations but now made manifest to his saints.
27: To them God chose to make known how great among the Gentiles are the riches of the glory of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.
28: Him we proclaim, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man mature in Christ.
29: For this I toil, striving with all the energy which he mightily inspires within me.

Maria Mahoney

02-03-2007, 09:41 PM

Review of what has been put forth so far....

1) Practice of virtues is first stage on the path of deification.

2) Contemplation of spiritual essences (logoi) is the second stage.

3) We need to advance on the path of deification and not get stuck in the spiritual loop of practice of the virtues and ascetic practices, as if they are the only thing needed.

4) Contemplation of logoi leads us on to the third stage "wherein we are united and interfused with the primordial light." And whereby the "Father of the Logos communicates through immaterial union" restoring us to our "original state and" assimilates us to" our "Archtype, grace renewing" us in our "pristine and inconceivable beauty."

5) Therefore, we should use our senses for the purpose that they were given to us, which is, "to grasp the Creator through His creation".

6) Once we begin to contemplate logoi, the many layers of Scripture will be revealed to us.

7) Although everything appears to be separate, the outcome of the contemplation of logoi is that we find that it is all one. We find unity. We find that the Divine Logos holds together the logoi of all things.

8) Mankind is given the task of entering into God's reality.

9) We are constructing deified selves and a deified world. We are called to transform the universe in Christ, which we do by way of transferring sensible creation to the noetic world, and conversely integrating the noetic world into the sensible.

Please feel free to add to this list.

In Christ,
Maria

Maria Mahoney

02-03-2007, 09:54 PM

From what I gather from Scripture, it seems that the kingdom of God is like a parallel universe.... well, it is something like that, in that, the kingdom is here, now ... at least it has begun to be revealed.

Luke 17
"20 Now having been questioned by the Pharisees as to when the kingdom of God was coming, He answered them and said, 'The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed;
21 nor will they say, 'Look, here it is!' or, 'There it is!' For behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst."

When Christ returns, it will be fully revealed. But for now, we have to search for it. It is a hidden treasure, a pearl, that we can only buy when we have sold all that we have ... leave our passions, earthly desires, everything and everyone, even ourselves for God.

Matthew 13
"44 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.
45 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls:
46 Who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it."

So you see, God has set us a task to become treasure hunters ... transferring this to the contemplation of logoi:

The Philokalia
Volume One
Evagrios:
"For example, why was gold created and scattered like sand in the lower regions of the earth, to be found only with much toil and effort? And how, when found, is it washed in water and committed to the fire, and then put into the hands of craftsmen who fashion it into the candlestick of the tabernacle and the censers and vessels (cf. Exod. 25:22-39)..." P. 42.

Then, after we find the treasure, we take His gift of gold and craft it into deified vessels.

The world is being transfigured ...

Pilgrimage of the Heart: A Treasury of Eastern Christian Spirituality
By George A. Maloney S.J.

"A transfiguration process is now going on throughout the whole cosmos, directed from the inside by the risen Lord and with the loving cooperation of each Christian. God truly loves the world He created. God's presence is sustained within all material creation by His uncreated energies of love.
The Body of Christ is being formed through the priestly ministry of each human being made according to the image and likeness that is Jesus Christ and is being fashioned by all things material. Thus, to pray we stand before God and the material world in complete self-surrender, letting the risen Jesus Christ work in and through us in a synergy of creativity between God and humanity. (George Maloney) P.P. 235-236.

We have a priestly ministry to work towards this transfiguration which culminates in the glorious second-coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and the revelation of the Heavenly Jerusalem.

Pilgrimage of the Heart: A Treasury of Eastern Christian Spirituality
By George A. Maloney S.J.

Our Lord Jesus Christ, then, comes from heaven; and He comes with glory at the end of this world, in the last day. For of this world there is to be an end, and this created world is to be re-made anew.

...Would you receive proof of this out of the words of Scripture? Listen to Isaias, saying, "And the heaven shall be rolled together as a scroll; and all the stars shall fall, as leaves from the vine, and as leaves fall from the fig-tree" (Isaiah 34:4). The Gospel also says, "The sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven"
(Matt. 26:29) ... And that Lord rolls up the heavens, not that He may destroy them, but that He may raise them up again more beautiful...(St. Cyril of Jerusalem) P.P. 225-226.

One very beneficial element that Eastern Christian spirituality can bequeath to the twentieth-century Christians is the positive vision of the entire material world as destined to enter into a spiritual transformation to form the Body of Christ, the Church. Our creative human work is to reconcile the world that sin has separated into antagonistic factions, the spiritual world over the material, man over woman, race against race, heaven over earth, and so forth. Such a positive view of the inner harmony of all things in Christ renders great value to human work as each person lovingly accepts his or her talents or charisms and brings them forth in loving service to create a better world that will become the new Heavenly Jerusalem.

The Church, then, is more than merely the institution made up of members of the hierarchy and clergy. It becomes the entire world, including material creation, moving toward the full manifestation of the Body of Christ in glory as each human being under the Holy Spirit works to bring all things into Christ. (George Maloney) P. 234.

I would like to thank the person who asked me questions in private that helped me with this!

Well, it is 4 a.m. now, and though there is still so much to add to this, I think I will post this.

In Christ,
Maria

Father David Moser

02-03-2007, 10:36 PM

Peter Farrington

03-03-2007, 10:11 AM

Dear Father David

But surely Father we are all called to practice the virtues, and to grow in the practice of the virtues through humility and prayerfulness.

Do you mean that we should not set ourselves the end of theosis, as if we could demand it of God? Which I agree entirely with.

Or do you mean that we should not seek to pratice the virtues? Which I would find confusing.

Can you elaborate?

Thanks

Peter

John Charmley

03-03-2007, 03:32 PM

Dear Maria,

Perhaps this from St. Isaac the Syrian helps?

The stages through which man advances are three: the beginner's stage, the intermediate, and that of the perfect. In the first stage all a man's thinking and recollection is held within the passions, even if his mind is directed toward good. The second is a kind of midway point between passion and the spiritual state: both thoughts from the right hand and those from the left move equally within it, the light and darkness never cease from welling forth

The third stage is characterised by the revelation of the Divine mysteries.

Elsewhere here, on the 'dispassionate' thread, I have suggested some more nuanced ways in which to approach the question of 'passion', but here I will confine myself to repeating what St. Maximus the confessor wrote:

In the devout person the passions become good when they prudently turn away from earthly things and put themselves at the service of heavenly things ... Desire brings about an insatiable spiritual movement that drives us towards divine things

The aim of the Christian life is not the same as that of the Greek stoics, and sometimes commentators seem in danger of forgetting the difference. It is our earthly passions we should subdue, not our passion for Heavenly things. St. Paul, like many of the Saints, is hardly dispassionate: he rejoiced with those who rejoiced, was troubled by fear, desired passionately to be with Christ, longed to see the Church in Rome, was jealous for the faithful at Corinth, and experienced 'pain in his heart'. St. Augustine concludes that the 'emotions and feelings that spring from love of the good and from holy charity' are not, as the Stoics held, 'morbid or disordered passions', but virtues.

We are to love the Lord Our God with all our heart; passions directed to Him and to the things that are His, we are not to subdue; we are not Stoics, we are Christians.

Or would this be misreading things?

In Christ,

John

Father David Moser

03-03-2007, 04:45 PM

Do you mean that we should not set ourselves the end of theosis, as if we could demand it of God? Which I agree entirely with.

This is at least part of what I am saying

Or do you mean that we should not seek to pratice the virtues? Which I would find confusing.

I didn't say we shouldn't practice the virtues, but simply that at the beginning of this first step lies the necessity of repentance and being freed from our sins. In all of these lofty discussions, the basic and most necessary task of repentance and purification seems at best glossed over when in fact it is the place where most of us need to exert most, if not all of our energy (especially as we are in the midst of Great Lent).

OTOH, I could be wrong and I could be the only sinner in the company of saints.

Fr David Moser

Peter Farrington

03-03-2007, 05:29 PM

Thank you for that Father, but I am still not entirely clear.

I have always understood, and experienced, that growth in the practice of virtues is accompanied with repentance, and that the two are inseperable. I mean that I cannot truly repent unless I practice virtue, and also that I cannot truly practice virtue without repentance.

Am I wrong in this, since you seem to be saying that we must be perfectly repentent before we try to live a virtuous life?

Peter

Father David Moser

03-03-2007, 06:45 PM

you seem to be saying that we must be perfectly repentent before we try to live a virtuous life?

Well, I guess what "seems" and what is are two different things here. One does not follow the other in rigid succession - rather they are contemporaneous but not synonymous events (sorry if there are spelling errors - the checker is down). One must do both - repent and live a righteous life. One implies the other, but does not automatically invoke the other. And of the two, repentance is the pre-requisite endeavor.

Fr David Moser

John Charmley

03-03-2007, 07:03 PM

One must do both - repent and live a righteous life. One implies the other, but does not automatically invoke the other. And of the two, repentance is the pre-requisite endeavor.

Fr David Moser

Dear Fr. David,

Yes, one must do both - and if one does not actually invoke the other, then one is probably doing neither!

Your ordering is His, He calls us to repent - and to amendment of life - and you are so right to remind us we cannot hope to do the latter unless we do the former - and since we are sinners, we shall continue to do both. We may be in the right hospital and getting the best treatment - but we are sick and the healing process life long.

I ask pardon if I err here.

In Christ,

John

Theophrastus

03-03-2007, 09:13 PM

Maria Mahoney

04-03-2007, 11:45 PM

We had a most wonderful sermon today about the Essences and Energies of God!

I really didn't mean to "gloss over" the need to repent, or to direct anyone away from that, especially during Lent.

Certainly the Jesus Prayer needs to be on our lips constantly, all our lives, and in our hearts! And I didn't mean to suggest that anyone should proceed into anything without the guidance of a spiritual Father or Mother. I am just sharing what I have received, with the hopes that others may share what they know, or with those who will ask questions that lead to more understanding. Thank you all for what you have contributed so far, you have been most helpful!

In Christ,
Maria

Maria Mahoney

07-03-2007, 03:23 AM

Last Sunday the Church commemorated St. Gregory Palamas ... in our parish, our Priest gave a wonderful sermon on the Energies and Essences of God.

This Sunday, the Epistle reading teaches us about Christ as the High Priest ...

Hebrews

Chapter 4

14: Since then we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus, the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession.
15: For we have not a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin.
16: Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

Chapter 5

1: For every high priest chosen from among men is appointed to act on behalf of men in relation to God, to offer gifts and sacrifices for sins.
2: He can deal gently with the ignorant and wayward, since he himself is beset with weakness.
3: Because of this he is bound to offer sacrifice for his own sins as well as for those of the people.
4: And one does not take the honor upon himself, but he is called by God, just as Aaron was.
5: So also Christ did not exalt himself to be made a high priest, but was appointed by him who said to him, "Thou art my Son, today I have begotten thee";
6: as he says also in another place, "Thou art a priest for ever, after the order of Melchizedek."

What does Christ's Priesthood have to do with us and the discussion of divine essences? The Church is the Body of Christ, and as such, we also have a share in His Priesthood through our Chrismation and ascetic purification...

The Philokalia

Volume Two
St. Maximos the Confessor

"The person who has mortified the earthly apects of himself (cf. Col. 3:5), thoroughly extinguishing the will of the flesh within him and repudiating the attachment to it which splits asunder the love we owe to God alone; who has disowned all the modalities of the flesh and the world for the sake of divine grace, so as to be able to say with Paul the apostle, 'What can separate us from the love of Christ?' (Rom. 8:35) - such a person has become, like Melchisedec, 'without father, without mother, without descent' (Heb. 7:3). For, because of the union with the Spirit that has taken place within him, he cannot now be dominated by flesh or by nature." P.278.

Volume Three
St. Makarios of Egypt

"The patriarch Abraham, when he was receiving Melchisedec, the priest of God, made him an offering from the firstfruits of the earth and so obtained his blessing (cf. Gen. 14: 19-20). Through this incident the Spirit indicates that the first and highest elements of our soul - must initially be offered to God as a holy sacrifice. The firstfruits and the highest of our true thoughts must be continually devoted to remembrance of Him, engrossed in His love and in unutterable and boundless longing for Him. In this way we can grow and move forward day by day, assisted by divine grace. Then the burden of fulfilling the commandments will appear light to us, and we will carry them out faultlessly and irreproachably, helped by the Lord Himself on account of our faith in Him." P. 290.

Ages of the Spiritual Life
By Paul Evdokimov

"The sacrament of anointing by chrism is the sacrament of universal priesthood. The Holy Spirit descends on the one newly born in baptism, to pour out the gift of Christian action." P.234.

Part of our work as priests consists in the contemplation of divine essences ... bringing material creation to noetic reality ... and returning the noetic reality to the material creation....

Ages of the Spiritual Life
By Paul Evdokimov

"...the universal priesthood of the laity bears the power of the sacred in the world, celebrating the liturgy of the entire cosmos therein. Beyond the church walls, lay people continue the liturgy of the Church. By their active presence, they introduce into society and relationships the truth of the dogmas they live, thus dislodging the evil and profane elements of the world.

In addition to an active participation in the powers of the Church, the Fathers emphasize the triple dignity of the laity. St. Macarius of Egypt says: 'Christianity is not at all something mediocre. It is a great mystery. Meditate on your own nobility...By the anointing, all have become kings, priests and prophets of the heavenly mysteries.'" P. 238.

"...the presence of the lay person in the world is also a perpetuation of the epiklesis, which sanctifies every inch of the world, contributes to the peace of which the Gospel speaks, and gives to all the liturgical 'kiss of peace.' According to the liturgical litanies, our prayer is directed to the day ahead, to the earth and its fruits, to the efforts of all. In the immense cathedral, that is, the universe, we, the priests of this life, whether workers or scholars, make of everything a human offering, a hymn, a doxology." P. 241.

This Sunday brings together our ascetic practice in the meaning of the Cross and our noble state bestowed upon us by Christ, through His Cross.

In Christ,
Maria

Rick H.

07-03-2007, 03:35 PM

Dear Maria,

Thank you so much for your excellent and hard work here in this thread! Don't tell anyone, but this is my favorite thread here on monachos :) Your quotes from the church fathers are a true blessing to me. I look forward to your posts when you have time to make them. When I see that you have made a contribution to this thread, usually in the evening, I like to make a cup of herbal tea and enjoy it with your work. It sounds like you had an excellent sermon last Sunday. I have never heard a message given on energy and essences anywhere, come to think of it, but I would like to. And, yes the "Priesthood of the Believer," what a beautiful picture. Hopefully, this will become more of an increasing reality in our world and less of a picture to imagine in the mind.

Also, in a further attempt to understand what is being said here, I want to share with you that I found the following article very helpful, Developing an Apophatic Christocentrism: "Lessons from Maximus the Confessor" from Theology Today, July 2003, by Ian A. McFarland (I wonder if any of my English friends recognize this name?):

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3664/is_200307/ai_n9251893

McFarland is speaking my language here and I think I might be being brought up to speed pretty quickly. So, if my copy of Nesteruk's, "Light from the East" will ever show up then we will be good to go. (Or, maybe it was Nesteruk that had the UK academic connection). But, anyway, I just would like to set the stage today somewhat and share why I will be coming primarily from the point of view of Maximus as we move forward. I will be using the above article and book as a springboard for future contributions and I want to give credit where credit is due. Having read the article in its entirety and the book reviews on the book, I am very impressed by the work of both of these men. I think, as you have already suggested, that we can 'undertake' our project in a most helpful way, beginning with the following by Maximus as quoted in the above article:

If you are about to undertake the task of theology, do not seek out God's essence, for neither the human intellect nor that of any other being under God can grasp it; but try to discern, as far as possible, the qualities that pertain to God. These include eternity, infinity, indeterminateness, goodness, wisdom, and the power of creating, preserving and judging creatures, and so on. For he who discovers these qualities, to however small an extent, is a great theologian.

And, as it relates further to the knowability of the Logos/logoi or the Divine and divine things, we read from Maximus:

Divinity and divine things are in some respects knowable and in some respects unknowable. They are knowable in the contemplation of what pertains to divinity and unknowable as regards divinity in itself.

So, as it relates to the development of either an apophatic or a cataphatic 'system'--or possibly the transcending of both--in a movement towards a contemplation of the logoi the above distinctions are offered. And, as it relates to the hope of finding firstly, 'position,' and then secondly 'union' with the Logos through a synergia or a cooperation (which can only find its culmination in a final movement of the Spirit of God) by the Grace of God, the above is offered for thought.

Thanks again Maria. One step at a time. Not that I am able to remember this at all times, but I think especially here it is true that, "Slow and steady wins the race."

Your Brother In Christ,
Rick

Tanya Hoadley

07-03-2007, 06:10 PM

Well, I guess what "seems" and what is are two different things here. One does not follow the other in rigid succession - rather they are contemporaneous but not synonymous events (sorry if there are spelling errors - the checker is down). One must do both - repent and live a righteous life. One implies the other, but does not automatically invoke the other. And of the two, repentance is the pre-requisite endeavor.

Fr David Moser

Father David Bless,

I think you have touched on a very important point. We tend to look at things in a linear fashion; lining things up in a neat little sequence. I think there is a real danger in allowing our own ideas of logic to impede us in our spiritual journey.

In Christ,
Tanya

Rick H.

16-03-2007, 03:39 PM

Dear Maria and All,

I have started reading the book that was suggested earlier in this thread, Light from the East, by Alexei Nesteruk. And, this really is an outstanding book. I think it is possible that he is breaking some new ground here and 'pursing Truth wherever it may be found, even if that means not cautiously going where everyone has gone before!' The subtitle of the book itself I think distinguishes the book from any other that I am familiar with, "Theology, Science, and the Eastern Orthodox Tradition." If one does not have the time or inclination for reading, and considering what has been read, then this is not the book for you. However, if this is not the case, I recommend this book highly from even what little I have gleaned so far. And, I would like to take this post to set the stage a little bit before we move into what Nesteruk is saying as it relates directly to our topic here in this thread. I think if I just 'jump' right in and start interacting with the authors work here, some may wonder what in the world this guy is all about. And, that would not be fair to either the reader or the author. So in an effort to not make others 'jumpy' about the idea that there are different schools of thought to be found in Orthodoxy, I would like to ease into our topic here (for once).

On page one, in the first sentence, Nesteruk gets right down to business by first acknowledging the penetration of postmodernity in relation to the living tradition of the Orthodox Church. From there he moves to a place of explanation that the "theology of the Orthodox faith should be seen as cumulative experience of faith in God, evolving within the boundaries of faith that are expressed in dogmatic definitions" Hmmm . . . where have we heard these things before? And, the author states next, "Since the Orthodox Church is considered the ongoing building of the body of Christ--and the affirmation of the presence of the Holy Spirit in it--theology, as a manifestation of this in verbal, written, musical, and other forms, allows one to employ any expression of faith as long as its boundaries are not crossed." Talk about a theology of freedom which stands in opposition to a theology of anxiety! This guy is great! But, come to think of it, he is horning in on an American Orthodoxy here :) On the back of the book, I can see that Nesteruk is not wearing a bow tie, but he does have a pretty wild plaid suit coat on ;)

But, who can hear what Nesteruk is saying here as he moves from Postmodernity to an Orthodox theology of freedom! This guy is my new hero (even if he doesn't have a bow tie collection). Sorry Drs. Steenberg and Charmley ;) Listen to what Nesteruk goes on to say, as he demonstrates that a pluralism of thought does in fact exist in Orthodoxy today: "All Orthodox theologians, whether Greek, Romanian, or Russian, use Patristic thought as an ultimate standard of theologizing. This does not mean that no development of theology is possible. Modern Greek theologians, for example, develop their subject by incorporating some modern philosophical ideas of Heidegger and Levinas, whereas Russian theologizing is more cautious. This demonstrates that pluralism of thought exists in modern Orthodox theology but does not lead to fragmentation of the whole experience of the Church as the whole and its perception of the unity in the living tradition."

And, I think I will just have to stop here . . . otherwise I would probably just copy the whole first chapter and post it. But, this gives us a little taste of where the author is coming from. And, next time, God willing, with this in mind we will move to his consideration of nature as it relates to the Logos/logoi concept and the contemplative life.

Also, it occurs to me that this is very interesting as we utilize theology and talk about God in an effort to point to the Holy Silence which is ultimately found in God. In this sense both are necessary if you think about it. And, this takes a little frustration from me right now as I consider that it is not a maddening thing to talk about something in the hope of finding silence--in fact it is a very necessary thing. There is a transcendence and an upward pull of the mind and spirit which brings about a true Freedom! and knowing that this is a very abstract thing it is necessary and in this sense a mode of universality is not to be shunned. But, also there is a parallel movement that we need to harmonize and bring into balance, and there is at the same time an immanence and a downward pull of the soul and body which does have boundaries that need to be adhered to and in this sense a mode of individuality is not to be shunned either.

One enhances the other!

There is more than one type of pilgrimage.

In Christ,
Rick

Maria Mahoney

17-03-2007, 05:26 AM

Matthew

Chapter 4
17: From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."

Yes, Jesus did say to "Repent"...why? "For the kingdom of heaven is at hand."
We repent, And we seek the kingdom of heaven.

Luke 10

40But Martha was cumbered about much serving, and came to him, and said,
Lord, dost thou not care that my sister hath left me to serve alone? bid her
therefore that she help me.

41And Jesus answered and said unto her, Martha, Martha, thou art careful and troubled about many things:

42But one thing is needful: and Mary hath chosen that good part, which shall
not be taken away from her.

Pilgrimage of the Heart: A Treasury of Eastern Christian Spirituality
By George A. Maloney

The spiritual life of the Christian East ... is, rather, a contemplation or
discovering of the unfolding, eternal love of the triune God in the cosmos.
The ascetical life is not considered as a purification and illumination that
leads to some acquired or infused union with God as merit of one's efforts to
storm Heaven. Instead, asceticism or praxis is what humanity must do in order to effect the necessary "therapy" to "see" what has always been there - God's eternal self-giving to humanity in each event of daily living. P.P. 232-233.

I think it is a monastic tradition to read the Ladder of Divine Ascent by St.
John Climacus every Lent. I was thinking about this in relation to the spiral
analogy given in the thread on the Heart of Salvation. It seems the reading
of the Ladder would be completely new every year, because the monastic is new every year... he has been transformed, just as each of us is new and
transformed everytime we come to experience Lent each year.

"No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it's not the same river and he's not the same man. "

Ηρακλειτος (Herakleitos; Heraclitus) of Ephesus (c.535 - 475 BC) Greek
philosopher

Everything is seen and understood in a new light. I look back over my journey
and see each revelation that God has given as a gift to me. All the difficult
struggles that I could not have endured without His grace. Sometimes I felt
like giving up! Why did I go on? Why did I continue on the hard and narrow
road? Because God would show me some little glimpse of Light... a flicker of
divine gold. He would reveal just enough to rekindle my love for Him. Then
with renewed strength, I could once again enter into the arena of spiritual
warfare with my own fallen nature. We get glimpses for encouragement. God
attracts us to Himself in this way, slowly, step by step. He coaxes us, draw
us, and leads us higher and higher.

Pilgrimage of the Heart: A Treasury of Eastern Christian Spirituality
By George A. Maloney

The beginning of this stage is the following: first a man is convinced of
God's Providence for men, he is illumined with love for the Creator and is
filled with wonder alike at the wise ordering of sentient beings and at God's
great care for them. This is the beginning of Divine sweetness in him and the kindling of his love for God, which flames the heart and burns up the passions of soul and body.

This love, accompanied by great zeal and good conscience, begins to flare up
suddenly - and a man is intoxicated, as with wine, and his heart is made
captive to God.

Thereupon this force begins to gain strength and firmness in him, in
proportion to his effort to lead a good life, to guard himself, to spend his
time in reading and prayer. (St. Isaac the Syrian) P. 144.

The Philokalia
St. Maximos:

"Some of the brethren think that they are excluded from the Holy Spirit's
gifts of grace. Because they neglect to practice the commandments they do not know that he who has unadulterated faith in Christ has within him the sum total of all the divine gifts. Since through our laziness we are far from
having an active love for Him - a love which shows us the divine treasures
within us - we naturally think that we are excluded from these gifts.
If, as Saint Paul says, Christ dwells in our hearts through faith (cf. Eph.
3:17), and all the treasures of wisdom and spiritual knowledge are hidden in
Him (cf. Col. 2:3), then all the treasures of wisdom and spiritual knowledge
are hidden in our hearts. They are revealed to the heart in proportion to our
purification by means of the commandments.

This is the treasure hidden in the field of your heart (cf. Matt. 13:44),
which you have not yet found because of your laziness. Had you found it, you would have sold everything and bought that field. But now you have abandoned that field and give all your attention to the land nearby, where there is nothing but thorns and thistles.

It is for this reason that the Saviour says, 'Blessed are the pure in heart,
for they shall see God' (Matt. 5:8): for He is hidden in the hearts of those
who believe in Him. They shall see Him and the riches that are in Him when
they have purified themselves through love and self-control; and the greater
their purity, the more they will see." P.109.

First of all God made me to desire Him and because of that I wanted to do all
for Him. That made it easier for my spiritual guide, all he needed to do was
recruit me into the army of God. Of course a soldier needs a superior
officier - someone already skilled in battle who must be unquestioningly
obeyed. I found out later that there is another advantage to obedience -
complete turning over of ones will to God through a spiritual father or
mother - and that comes after the soldier dies to the world... then his mind
is completely freed for prayer. He no longer has to be concerned with any
worries about the world. And dying to the world is the next step. The only
way to recieve God's Grace - divine vision - is to make God the center of
life unquestionably. To leave everyone and everything and all evil passions,
without looking back, to do the will of God.

Then that creates an emptiness, a void, for God to fill with the New Kingdom,
and I believe that Kingdom is there already, but we can't see it when we are
blinded by the world - and when we remove the world, at first we see it as an emptiness, (very painfully I might add), until God gives us the Grace of true vision to see the Kingdom, which as I said before we have to cultivate. And the King is there too, but God will have to restore our vision completely
before we can see Him and we have to desire it and work for it with all our
hearts.

After we have died to everything, then we need a thought transfusion. A
thought transfusion is like a blood transfusion, except that it is new
thoughts we need instead of new blood, because thoughts are the blood of the soul. I think it is within this transfusion that the passions and soul are
really transformed to what they were created to be. The new thoughts begin to come from reading Scriptures, receiving the Sacraments, and reading religious books. Even greater transformation occurs when we are caught up into the comtemplation of the logoi. Then we are strengthened to turn away from evil when it presents itself and do good for the Glory of God. It helped to learn of being open to the Spirit of God and to search the Scriptures for the teaching below the surface.

Once one turns away from everything, all that is left is formlessness, and
the void, and darkness upon the face of ones' soul. And the Spirit of God
moves within ones' soul... revealing light, heaven, and the kingdom of God.
Within the eternal time of the eighth day, the Day of our Lord - all of the
new creation - the transformed creation, is revealed by the Spirit of God.
And by His Grace a new creature is formed from the dust of the mortal, fallen
bodies we wear - a new creature in the image AND likeness of God. Deified,
immortal, spiritual, and godly. And from the food and water - the heavenly
food and water, one is fed and given to drink. And with angelic shouts of
praise and thanksgiving - enter into the eternal rest, joy, and peace of our
Lord.

The Philokalia
St. Maximos:

"Sometimes when a farmer is looking for a suitable spot to which to
transplant a tree, he unexpectedly comes across a treasure. Something similar may happen to the seeker after God. If he is humble and unaffected, and if his soul, after the example of the blessed Jacob (cf. Gen. 27:11), is sleek, and not hirsute with materiality, then God may grant him the contemplation of divine wisdom even though he has not laboured for it. But if the Father then asks him how he came by this knowledge, saying to him 'What is this you have found so quickly, My son?' he should reply, as Jacob did, 'It is what the Lord God has granted to me' (Gen. 27:20 LXX). We should realize in such a case that what he has found is a spiritual treasure; for the devoted seeker after God is a spiritual farmer who transplants, as if it were a tree, his contemplation of visible and sensory things to the field of noetic realities; and in so doing he find a treasure - the revelation by grace ot the wisdom in created things." P.117.

I remember that a Saint (I can't remember who) once had an analogy about
purification...He said our souls are like a glass filled with muddy water;
when we fast, pray, read Scriptures, practice the virtues, and all other
spiritual practices, it is like adding clean, pure water to the glass drop by
drop. Eventually the good water replaces the muddy water, and all that is
left in the glass is clean, pure water.

This Sunday, the Gospel reading says that there are spirits which can only be
driven out by "fasting and prayer".

Luke 9
29And he said unto them, This kind can come forth by nothing, but by prayer
and fasting.

I think the battle is two pronged....on a physical level and a spiritual
level. Fasting seems to me to represent the physical struggle to overcome our passions, and prayer addresses the spiritual struggle. But I don't think it
is just any kind of prayer; I believe the prayer is of the nature associated
with the contemplation of the logoi. When our hearts are continually occupied
with this kind of prayer, it is like pure water that replaces the polluted
water of our passionate thoughts. Both fasting and prayer are required to
drive out the most deeply lodged passions.

Pilgrimage of the Heart: A Treasury of Eastern Christian Spirituality
By George A. Maloney

By fulfilling the commandments, the mind becomes stripped of passions; by
spiritual contemplation of the visible it is stripped of passionate
representations of things...(St. Maximos the Confessor) P. 145.

And the purpose of the purification is to "attain the Holy Spirit" as St.
Seraphim taught.

The Holy Spirit is the wedding garment which we must be clothed in when we
come the wedding feast of our Divine Bridegroom.

The Philokalia

Nikitas Stithatos:

"The Spirit is light, life and peace. If consequently you are illumined by
the Spirit your own ife is imbued with peace and serenity. Because of this
you are filled with the spiritual knowledge of created beings and the wisdom
of the Logos; you are granted the intellect of Christ (cf. 1 Cor. 2:16); and
you come to know the mysteries of God's kingdom ( cf. Luke 8:10). P. 152.

If we have the intellect of Christ then we will see the world as Christ does.
In His teachings to the world, He looked at the birds, the flowers, the
trees, and saw beyond the external form and gave us a deeper understanding of God's love for us and and when he is talking of clothing us... He doesn't
mean in silk or satin, but in glory! The wonderful clothing he points to is
the clothing of in the Holy Spirit and we are called to seek the Kingdom, so
that He can gift us with the receiving of it!

Chapter 6

25: "Therefore I tell you, do not be anxious about your life, what you shall
eat or what you shall drink, nor about your body, what you shall put on. Is
not life more than food, and the body more than clothing?
26: Look at the birds of the air: they neither sow nor reap nor gather into
barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value
than they?
27: And which of you by being anxious can add one cubit to his span of life?
28: And why are you anxious about clothing? Consider the lilies of the field,
how they grow; they neither toil nor spin;
29: yet I tell you, even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of
these.
30: But if God so clothes the grass of the field, which today is alive and
tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will he not much more clothe you, O men of little faith?
31: Therefore do not be anxious, saying, `What shall we eat?' or `What shall
we drink?' or `What shall we wear?'
32: For the Gentiles seek all these things; and your heavenly Father knows
that you need them all.
33: But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things
shall be yours as well.
And then...

St. Gregory Palamas:

"Those who grieve in their longing for the Bridegroom to whom they are not
yet united utter as it were certain words of courtship, smiting themselves
and calling upon Him with tears as though He were not present and perhaps
might never be present. But the consummation of grief is pure bridal union
with the Bridegroom."

"Behold the Bridegroom comes in the midst of the night; and blessed is the servant, whom He shall find watching; and unworthy is he, whom He shall find
heedless. Beware, therefore, O my soul, that you will not be overcome by
sleep, lest you be given up to death, and be shut out from the Kingdom.
Wherefore, rouse yourself, crying out: "Holy, Holy, Holy are You, our God,
save us and have mercy on us."

In Christ,
Maria

Rick H.

17-03-2007, 10:28 PM

Dear Maria,

Thank you for this last post of yours. How beautiful and how substantive! I just have to comment on a couple things here. Beginning with the quote that you shared in the following:

The spiritual life of the Christian East ... is, rather, a contemplation or discovering of the unfolding, eternal love of the triune God in the cosmos. The ascetical life is not considered as a purification and illumination that leads to some acquired or infused union with God as merit of one's efforts to storm Heaven. Instead, asceticism or praxis is what humanity must do in order to effect the necessary "therapy" to "see" what has always been there - God's eternal self-giving to humanity in each event of daily living. P.P. 232-233.

This speaks directly to a belief that I hold. And, I would like to move in this direction if and when we pick back up with Father Raphael's concluding thoughts in a previous conversation in which he said:

We have talked about this from time to time here at Monachos. Most seem to feel there is a real place for such things in their lives. But whether from a realistic acceptance of our own weakness or that these things really help us in our deeper spiritual lives is the question we keep coming back to with no clear answer.

Because this speaks to a degree about both the cause and effect as well as the validity of "what we must 'do'" or "what our part 'is.'" And, I think we begin to see that ideally there is no division between what is being said here in the sense that as it relates specifically to the contemplation of the logoi this is BOTH a means to AND an expression of Christian Perfection. Not an either/or--neither/nor thing. So, if we are being consistent with our thinking here, and in light of Father's very well put summary above, we can safely conclude that there is no line of division between an acceptance of our own weakness and what is a true help in the way of deepening our spiritual lives--it becomes a moot point (and possibly one of interest only to the ones on the sidelines of the Logos/logoi, of which I am one--the chief of waterboys). Do you see what I mean? It is just as when I was first enquiring about Orthodoxy to my former Priest just over three years ago. I would email with him and visit him in his office. And, I would ask him questions to which he would reply on occasion, "The questions you are asking would never occur to an Orthodox person--an Orthodox person would never ask the questions you are asking." For example, I would try to understand the Orthodox view of the Body and the Blood. And, he would share with me that that is what it is. And, I would work it around a few different ways until I finally came up with something like (possibly using Schmemmanease), "so possibly we could say the Body and the Blood is both a symbolic realism and a realistic symbolism" and then we went from there. But, the point is he would answer some of my questions with the statement that "For a boy who grew up in Greece in the Church, the question that you are asking would never be asked" . . . the Body and Blood of Christ is the Body and Blood of Christ. And, this is what I mean as I reference the quote that you have included above. What we 'do' is how we 'see' . . . our state of 'being' is our state of 'knowing' it is both a means and an expression of God's Grace.

So as we consider the Orthodox doctrine of contemplation of the logoi, we see that this at once addresses our weakness and deepens our spiritual life. In this sense the therapy is the way and the two cannot be separated. And, think of one who knows this way of being, such as the writers that we have been quoting on this thread, the past saints. Think of their set of assumptions they would have had as they wrote what they did. Or, for that matter, I wonder if I was around to ask them some of the questions that I am asking now, if they would have said in response something like, "what do you mean?" or possibly "Rick, you seem to want to separate the way from the goal, but contemplation of the logoi is both the way and the goal--'the unfolding eternal Love of God is both the way and the goal." And, this opens a train of thought as one might consider the merging or the separation of such concepts as sanctification and salvation, but this is not for here.

And, Maria, when you also say:

I think the battle is two pronged....on a physical level and a spiritual level.

I also appreciate this in the sense of harmonizing the immanent and the transcendent as a model which I think can be realized in the contemplation of the logoi and is not one without a theological/biblical basis (viz. 'and His name shall be Immanuel, God with us,' and 'no man has seen God for God is a Spirit'). I had a little bit of a mini-enlightenment on this subject in the last paragraph of my last posting in this thread which I am still a little high from right now. And, this is enough here for now, but all these things are related as it applies to the contemplation of the logoi, and I am looking forward to moving forward with you in this thread in the hope that there would be less of a standing on the sidelines and more time on the field.

But, for now, "It's Saturday Night!" that means it's time to build the evening fire and put on the chai pot and curl up with a good book (what a wild and crazy guy!). Light from the East anyone?

In Christ,

Rick

Rick H.

21-03-2007, 03:24 PM

A Means of and an Expression of . . .

Dear Maria and All,

As we continue here with our topic, and I continue with my research, I am noticing that there seems to be somewhat of a consistency here in terms of an appeal to Maximus by those operating from a scholarly place. I have not spent enough time on this subject yet to make the statement that the writing of Maximus holds a position of primacy as it relates to the Logos/logoi. But, as with the McFarland article referenced earlier, Nesteruk moves straight to Maximus when it is time to start the discussion of patristic theology and natural sciences. Possibly, some of the patristic theologians/historians here at monachos can help me out with this; however, I am beginning to wonder at this early stage if the Logos/logoi, as brought into the Church and as developed by the Church finds its starting place in Maximus? Usually, when I begin researching if most or all of the writers are appealing to one source, there is usually a significant reason for this.

So with that aside, for now. Let's continue on with Nesteruk's work and begin to attempt to understand what he is saying in his excellent book, "Light From the East." Beginning on page 25, in the section "St. Maximus the Confessor on the logoi of Creation," Nesteruk begins to consider Maximus's theology of the logoi which in no uncertain terms states that:

"Maximus considered the contemplation of the logoi of created things to be a mode of communion with the Logos leading ultimately to mystical union with God."

So that's pretty clear. If I was still a Baptist "preacher-boy" I would take the next fifteen minutes and repeat/restate and provide redundant systems to support what has been said in this one sentence :) But, I am not any longer, so I will just repeat this one time for effect :)

"Maximus considered the contemplation of the logoi of created things to be a mode of communion with the Logos leading ultimately to mystical union with God."

I think it is possible that anyone else, like me, who is interested in learning about this concept, Logos/logoi, must first grasp what is being said here.

And, secondly, I think it is critical to understanding that this mode of communion, this practice of contemplation, "is not the same as either perception or mental comprehension. It is a mode of spiritual vision of reality in which the ontological roots of things and beings have their grounds beyond the world;" as Nesteruk goes on to say also, and I paraphrase from page 26, this Christian contemplation of creation as it were is "from above" or "from within"--and it is not through external sensible or internal mental impressions.

I really appreciate writers who can just be this direct and clear at times. This is good stuff, "The ontological roots of things" which have "their grounds beyond the world . . ." There is definitely a huge place, and a clear necessity, for the one who is gifted with bringing a heavenly harmony into a given discussion (as in the case with Father Raphael and Herman for example--this is indispensable for talk about God of any kind). But, you just have to love writing like Nesteruk's here, he is saying what he means very clearly and unearthing treasures here for us and leaving them laying on top of the ground in clear sight. Some of the book reviewers were harsh towards the overall technical character of his book, and it is definitely not light reading; however, if one is willing to invest some time understanding what he is saying, and take in what he is presenting as a whole, there is a huge return on the investment here. But be warned, one may have to learn a new word if one wants to understand what is being said. Actually, it is dawning on me now that there is a common denominator in the writing of all three men mentioned above . . . even though one brings sharp definition and the other two characteristically bring a beautiful harmony, all three are working in affirmations and negations at the same time, all three employ a method that says what a given topic "is" and what it "is not."

And, possibly this is enough for today's installment as we work towards a closer look at Logos/logoi in terms of Maximus' theology that the divine Logos holds together the logoi of created things, and it is through contemplation of created things that a mystical mode of communion with the Logos may be achieved. And, possibly some can begin considering at this point in particular the difference between a pantheism and a panentheism, as well as such as the Creator and nature, and 'detachment from nature' and 'the love of nature.'

But, for today if the above 2 things are taken in then we are well on our way with this topic in general and understanding what Nesteruk is saying via Maximus as it relates to the Logos/logoi in particular.

In Christ,
Rick

PS If anyone cares to know what I mean in other threads when I repeat the theme that one's ontology models one's epistemology, this topic, this thread, and especially Nesteruk's work and Maximus' thinking above, as it "points to" this kind of 'contemplative life', is EXACTLY what I am talking about.

Rick H.

25-03-2007, 02:53 AM

Practically Speaking

Dear Maria,

Well, where did this past week go? It's Saturday night again, and that can mean only one thing, another installment on your thread. So, last time we considered Nesteruk's assertion in the following:

"Maximus considered the contemplation of the logoi of created things [such as yellow crocuses] to be a mode of communion with the Logos leading ultimately to mystical union with God." [parenthetical expression mine]

and we left off with a consideration of a possible charge of pantheism here. To which the author moves directly to the following (pg 27):

"But the Fathers, though worshiping the uncreated through nature, were always aware of the danger of pantheism, for the passage between the material and the spiritual was made with such ease that the fundamental distinction between them could be confused. The Fathers never worshipped nature, only its creator.

and possibly, just for good measure, I will include a little more on this:

This safeguards the position of the Fathers from pantheism. God and nature are not identical, but one may seek access to nature in order to find God. (27)

And, with this now in place as it addresses questions that I initially had. I would like to back up two quotes above, and look a little closer what is being said in the above, when it is stated that, . . ."the passage between the material and the spiritual was made with such ease [for the Fathers]." It is so easy to read over statements like these. And, Nesteruk offers no footnote here to support this proposition, and knowing we are dealing with a secondary source here I would like to invite any interested to weigh in from a patristic or monastic point of view; however, let's not let this one get past us here. Who can relate to what is being said here? Who has experienced what is being said here? And, possibly this requires a time of defining of terms at this point. What does meditation mean? And what does contemplation mean? Are they different things, do they run together or are the always separate?

But, who is the one who is experienced in this area? Is it a prideful thing to speak of such things? Who can relate to the statement that the passage between the material and the spiritual is made with ease? Has anyone here at monachos ever just sat down and focused on something like a yellow crocus, possibly like the ones found in Marie Duquett's back yard?

Has anyone here ever had any experience sitting down, and focusing on a crocus for example, and transcending spiritually the material world, the world of nature, in order to contemplate its logoi and through this contemplation praise the creator of the natural world?

Or, is this just something that we read about in books and discuss in theory only, which is a special calling, not for everyone, and just something that is reserved a very select few?

In Christ,
Rick

Marie-Duquette

29-03-2007, 03:52 PM

"Be still and know that I am God!" Ps 46:10(Ps4.5KJV)

"He pastures His flock among the lilies!" S.ofS.2:16

marie_duquette

Rick H.

30-03-2007, 11:23 AM

"Be still and know that I am God!" Ps 46:10(Ps4.5KJV)

"He pastures His flock among the lilies!" S.ofS.2:16

marie_duquette

Dear Marie, Dear All:

Good to see you here on this thread too :) Thank you for these two verses. I have always appreciated Ps 46:10. When we read the written Word in harmony with the living Word we see that we are to pray unceasingly just as we are to be still and to cease striving. And herein lies the way out of the continuum of a frenzied activism and a giddy superficiality. I was a slow learner in this area for many years. God willing, I will not have to learn this lesson again. Both of these verses above speak of a Heavenly Liturgy to me, there is a Cosmic Liturgy to be found in the Logos/logoi. This is becoming very evident to me in the thinking of the church Fathers very quickly. And, even here, questions from other threads come into view as we consider the level and degree of participation in this Cosmic Liturgy. And, as we consider the Ground and implications of what is being said here on this very matter as it relates to such things as a Christian Ecclesiology and a Theology of Love together . . . still yet, we find ourselves considering (again) the question(s) here, Who determines who may participate in this Liturgy. Or, possibly, to view it from another perspective, Who determines whether this is a sacrament or not and for whom? But, it is too early in the day for me to move any further with this at the present. Possibly, others, more knowledgeable than me of the Logos/logoi --which shouldn't be too hard to find--[from the field of patristic theology] may wish to pick up the ball and run with it for a few yards now?

And, before I go, I am thinking of Owen's post from the other day on another thread which I would like to move here now (yes, I know, the boy who would be moderator ;). At least the first paragraph. Because his writing in this first paragraph really does belong in this collection of posts:

Originally Posted by Owen Jones:

Just a small quibble, but the Holy Trinity surely incorporates both the personal and the non-personal. As God is all in all, if we are spiritually attentive, we will discover the Trinity in the rocks and trees, and not only in the things in nature, but in the processes of nature as well. Christian doctrine is that Christ came as a man because of our spiritual blindness and incapacity to see Christ (and the fullness of the Trinity) in the things that He has made. In theory, a flower is just as revelatory of Christ as is the person Jesus.

If Barth was correct about anything, he was most correct when he said that natural revelation and special revelation are complimentary rather than contradictory in nature.

In Christ,
Rick

Rick H.

07-04-2007, 04:09 PM

The Secret (of the Greek Fathers)

Dear All,

I picked up a copy of the book "The Secret" at Borders the other day and skimmed through it and then promptly took it back to the shelf. I am not sure what the big deal is about this book, because I cannot see at [a glance anyway] where anything new is being said by the authors in this book. But, possibly what is said in "The Secret" is new to some, like what some of what Nesturuk is saying in the "Light from the East" is new to me--even though what Nesturuk is saying is not new to Orthodoxy.

And, before we get started here, on a side note of sorts, I would like to mention that i have skimmed ahead a little bit in Nesteruk's work. And, I may be wrong, but I am not so sure that he is not talking about Logos/logoi now and weaving it back in later to support his epistemological method for what he will say in the end of this book. I may be wrong, we will see as we go; however, for what it is worth I will mention now that the author clearly has stated that he sees Orthodox theology as being the result of a cumulative effort, and that the Orthodox Church should be considered as an ongoing building of the Body of Christ. And, these things speak directly to the very recent conversation of Owen and John in the 'Development' of doctrine & preserving Orthodoxy' thread I think (excluding Owen's reference to the Hegelian maddness of thesis, antithesis, and synthesis which has brought the Church to the point of which she is today); however, for what it is worth I am not sure that the only reason we are considering the Logos/logoi in Nesturuk's book right now as it relates to nature and the natural sciences is so that he can further build a base from which to work later so that he can say what he wants to say. And, I am not saying that he is doing anything underhanded here at all, because he does provoke great thought even as we consider his approach as it relates to the approach of others in the Great Orthodox Catholic Tradition, but for what it is worth I'll mention my suspicion that there is a building of an epistemological foundation here as much, if not more than, there is the laying of a foundation for later assertions as they relate to physics. But, we will see, this book is very unique, it bridges many fields/disciplines, and it is not a quick read.

But . . . back to the secret of the Greek Fathers as Nesturuk says:

"The secret of the Greek Fathers' freedom to enjoy nature was their detachment from it."

As we consider the subject of detachment (or 'non-attachment' if you prefer), from nature and the love of nature together, I think we have to see much value in the above statement. Again, no footnotes here by Nesteruk to support what is being said [which does bother me a little bit to be honest]; however, either way the one who holds this view does work from a very balanced position, doesn't he. And, now a piece from Teilhard De Chardin comes to mind, but this will require a trip to the book shelves ;) . . . well okay, since you said please :) . . .

. . . here it is by Pierre Teilhard de Chardin, speaking on matter and spirit in "The Activation of Energy":

Ever since man, in becoming man, started on his quest for unity, he has constantly oscillated, in his visions, in his ascesis, or in his dreams, between a cult of the spirit, which made him jettison matter and a cult of matter which made him deny spirit . . .

and, that's enough because for anyone living in the 'real' world there cannot be an extremist position here one way or the other as it relates to a living in the already and the not yet (again harkening back to Owen and John's comments in the thread mentioned above). And, for that matter, this speaks directly to theme as a whole of the "An American Orthodoxy?" thread, to paraphrase Teilhard de Charding again here: ever since anyone has started on his or her quest for unity, he or she has constantly oscillated between extremes. But, what is needed is firstly a place of balance, and then from there a transcending of the whole dualistic way of knowing and being. None of these issues from matter/spirit to progressive revelation/Hegelian synthesis to Tradition/tradition are either/or issues!

And, as we try again to return to Logos/logoi specifically as it relates to detachment from nature and the love of nature the same is true here. Even I can see this now :)

And, frankly, as one considers what is being said, it really doesn't even matter whether Nesteruk can back up his assertions or not that he makes regarding the way of knowing and the way of being of the Fathers does it? Because the Truth is the Truth. For that matter, the Truth is the Truth even if spoken by an unbeliver. So it just doesn't matter! Now I realize I have assumed Bill Murray's position as he led a chant for his assembly in the movie "Meatballs" . . . "It just doesn't matter!--It just doesn't matter!--It just doesn't matter!" :) So, possibly all things considered it is time to pull off of this rambling post for today and to prepare and to attempt to focus on the 'real' Celebration of celebrations.

As has been said, the sun never sets on Orthodoxy. I don't know what time it is now for our Austrailain and South African monachos friends, I think it' a little after 3:00 PM now as I type this for our UK friends. So may we all have blessed service today, as we prepare for the time when we say as one, "Christ has Risen!"

In the Crucified and Risen Christ,
Rick

In the End, the Beginning

Maria Mahoney

11-04-2007, 01:12 AM

Christ is risen! Truly He is risen!

WOW! There is so much to reply to and catch up to on this thread! Just thought you might find the early history of man's understanding of Logos to be of interest... this site was a good start:

http://mb-soft.com/believe/text/logos.htm

In Christ,
Maria

Maria Mahoney

22-05-2007, 04:50 PM

During Lent we sang of having "no wedding garment", the same wedding garment that Christ spoke of in Matthew.

"The wedding garment about which Christ speaks (cf. Matt. 22:11-12) signifies the grace of the Holy Spirit: the man who is not worthy of wearing it has no part in the celestial marriage and in the spiritual wedding feast." Philokalia Volume 3, St. Makarios of Egypt, P. 328-329.

Thus,

"The true aim of our Christian life consists in the acquisition of the Holy Spirit of God." St. Seraphim of Sarov A Spiritual Biography by Archimandrite Lazarus Moore; P. 169.

When the Holy Spirit dwells in our souls, when we put on the wedding garment of the Holy Spirit, the eyes of our hearts are opened and we perceive the Divine reality in which we live and move and have our being.

"So long as we live on earth, the revelation of the divine Logos does not affect so much what we see (Christ instead of creatures) as how we see (creatures in their relationship to Christ), as grace enables the mind "to see with knowledge what is [already] in front of it....
The christological focus of Maximus's thinking comes to the fore in his interpretation of the transfiguration. He does not understand the disciples' experience on Tabor as the result of any objective change in Jesus' appearance. Once again, it is a question of being enabled to see what was there all along by virtue of 'a change in the powers of sense that the Spirit worked in the [disciples], lifting the veils of the passions from the intellectual
activity that was in them.'" http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3664/is_200307/ai_n9251893/pg_5
Developing an apophatic christocentrism: Lessons from maximus the confessor

So as it was said before ... the kingdom of God is already here... Clothed in the wedding garment of the Holy Spirit we see Christ on Mt. Tabor in His Glory; we understand the preaching of the Apostles, each in our own language; and suddenly, we behold the Kingdom of Heaven!

"whenever you hear about the communion of bridegroom and bride, about dancing, music and feasting, do not take these things in a material or worldly manner: they are spoken of simply by way of illustration, as a condescension to our understanding. For the things they denote are spiritual and inexpressible, indiscernible to corporeal eyes, and these illustrations help holy and faithful souls to perceive what is meant. The communion
itself of the Holy Spirit, celestial treasures, the dances and festivals of the angels - these things are clear only to those who have experience of them; to the uninitiated they are totally beyond comprehension. Thus you must listen with reverence to what is said about them, until through faith you are enabled to attain them; then you will know, with the actual experience of the soul's eyes, in what blessings and mysteries the souls of Christians can
share even during this present life. When in the resurrection their body becomes spiritual, it too is enabled to attain, behold and, so to speak, grasp these things." Philokalia Volume 3 , St. Makarios of Egypt, P. 328.

We received the garment of the Holy Spirit in our baptism...

"...when we were cleansed through baptism we received in seed-like form the foretaste of the Spirit (cf. 2 Cor. 1:22) and what St. James calls the 'implanted Logos' (Jas. 1:21), embedded and as it were consolidated in us through an unparticipable participation; and, while keeping Himself inviolate and undiminished, He deifies us in His superabundant bounty." Philokalia Volume 4, St. Gregory of Sinai, P. 265.

But the seed remains dormant until, in synergy with God, we begin to live a holy life...

"If you generate the honey of the virtues in stillness, you will through struggle and self-discipline transcend the lowly estate of man's fallen condition and by overcoming your presumption you will restore the soul's powers to their natural state. Your heart purified by tears, you will now become receptive to the rays of the Spirit, will clothe yourself in the incorruption the life-quickening deadness of Christ (cf. 1 Cor. 15:53; 2 Cor. 4:10), and will receive the Paraclete in tongues of fire in the upper room of your stillness (cf. Acts 2:3)." Philokalia Volume 4, Nikitas Stithatos, P. 126.

Then Pentecost will become a living reality in each of our lives...

"When, as promised on the day of Pentecost the Paraclete made Himself present and the power of the Holy Spirit came to dwell in the souls of the apostles, the veil of sinfulness was once and for all removed from them, Their passions were annulled and the eyes of their heart were opened. Henceforth they were filled with wisdom and made perfect by the Spirit: through Him they knew how to carry out God's will, and through Him they were initiated into all truth, for He directed and reigned in their souls." Philokalia Volume 3, St. Makarios of Egypt; P. 327.

"It is now that the intellect becomes simple matter in God's hands and is unresistingly recreated in the sublime way, for nothing alien intrudes on it: inner grace translates it to a better state and, in an altogether marvellous fashion, illumines it with ineffable light, thus perfecting our inner being. And when in this manner 'the day breaks and the morning star rises in our hearts' (cf. 2 Pet. 1:19), then 'the true man' - the intellect - 'will go out to his true work' (cf. Ps. 104:23), ascending in the light the road that leads to the eternal mountains. In this light it miraculously surveys supramundane things, being either still joined to the materiality to which it was originally linked, or else separated from it - this depending on the level that it has attained. For it does not ascend on the wings of the mind's fantasy, for the mind always wanders about as though blind, without possessing an accurate and assured understanding either of sensory things not immediately present to it or of transcendent intelligible realities. Rather it ascends in very truth, raised by the Spirit's ineffable power, and with spiritual and ineffable apperception it hears words too sacred to utter (cf. 2 Cor. 12:4) and sees invisible things. And it becomes entirely rapt in the miracle of it, even when it is no longer there, and it rivals the tireless angelic choir, having become truly another angel of God upon earth. Through itself it brings every created thing closer to God, for it itself now participates in all things and even in Him who transcends all, in as much as it has conformed itself to the divine image." Philokalia Volume 4, St. Gregory Palamas, P. 316 - 317.

In Christ,
Maria

Celinda Grace

26-05-2007, 11:18 PM

What does meditation mean? And what does contemplation mean? Are they different things, do they run together or are the always separate?

...Has anyone here ever had any experience sitting down, and focusing on a crocus for example, and transcending spiritually the material world, the world of nature, in order to contemplate its logoi and through this contemplation praise the creator of the natural world?

In Christ,
Rick

If I understand the terms right meditation is an ascetic practice that we do in order to quiet our mind. Contemplation is a state of mind wherein spiritual realities are experienced.

I think your example of the crocus is backward. We do not find Christ through knowing the crocus, but the crocus through knowing Christ. One thing that you have missed about contemplation is the relational aspect.

"First St. Maxmus emphasises that perfect faith is man's unity and communion with God. Faith is "a relational power or relationship which brings about the immediate, perfect and supernatural union of the believer with the God in whom he believes."...Therefore St. Maximus teaches that the end of faith is the salvation of souls. Salvation, that is to say, succeeds when a man is led from simple faith to perfect faith. Therefore he maintains that "the true revelation of that which was believed is the end of faith". Metropolitan of Nafpaktos Hierotheos, Mind of the Orthodox Church.

The Logos is Christ and to contemplate the Logos (perfect faith in the above quote) is to be in relationship with Christ that grows through faith.

"Maximus considered the contemplation of the logoi of created things [such as yellow crocuses] to be a mode of communion with the Logos leading ultimately to mystical union with God." [parenthetical expression mine]

I recently wrote on my blog, It is a truth of our relationship with God that two things are required for that relationship to be restored; one is an intellectual belief in the truth of God's nature....Second is our living comformity with that nature.

Simple faith is believing God's word, perfect faith happens when we bring our minds and our lives into conformity with that word.

Most of us who have been brought up in the church take simple faith forgranted and fail to realize that this is a gift and a divine revelation from God. Chirst is the author as well as the finisher of our faith. A few years ago I met a man who has a PHd in philosophy on an evangelical blog. He was asking questions about Christ's death and resurrection that completely blew holes in the typical evangelical doctrine of the atonement. I could tell he was doing this not for the sake of argument but because he was really looking for answers. In my attempts to answer him my already unstable theology came crashing down for which I am very thankful, because that collapse allowed me to rebuild along better lines ;) I don't often get a chance to directly repay those who have benefited me in my spiritual journey but in this case a few months ago I reconnected with my friend. This time I was able to explain to him the Incarnation and the cross in a more substantial way and he was able to make a connection between how I explained things and the truth that was already within him.

He recently said to me. "I've even begun to pray. If you knew me, you'd know that that's a big deal, and I still find it difficult to do. I have moments where it seems ridiculous, and moments where it seems to me that I have little or no idea to whom I pray. But I do it anyway."

I share the story because it has reminded me that simple faith is a gift from God, not simply a result of growing up in a Christian home and it can be a struggle to obtain it. The desire exists to believe but not the belief.

Watchman Nee explains it this way.

"How do you know your sins are forgiven? Is it because your pastor told you? No, You just know it. If I ask you how you know , you simply answer, "I know it!" Such knowledge comes by divine revelation. ... So there comes a time, in regard to any new apprehension of Christ, when you know in your own heart; you "see" it in your spirit. A light has shined into your inner being and you are wholly persuaded of the fact."

My friend's response shows the struggle that takes place after the gift also. He believes, now he must work out that belief in action for that faith to grow and become perfect. Paul says that he presses on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of him.

II Peter1:3 His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. 4Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

One example of our struggle is that we believe that Christ has given us everything we need to be free from slavery to our passions and darkness so that we can live for God. Once we believe this in simple faith as an objective truth then the struggle is to gain it as a personal and living reality (perfect faith). In the midst of the struggle against sin we must deny ourselves and our knowledge of our own weakness and take hold of the promises and strength of God. To say we cannot escape sin is an illusion that Satan tries to hold us in. We make excuses for our failings rather then striving to take hold of the eternal realities that are ourws in Christ.

In this exercise, as our faith is perfected, a hunger for the reality that we are striving for but cannot seem to reach grows. Going back to the example, it often appears that we get weaker and weaker in our battle against sin, we notice our failings more and more. What is happening is that our vision is getting better. We are seeing more of the reality that God is the creator and we the creature. We are seeing that it is His power that saves us not our own. As we see God more clearly we move from struggle to surrender as Seraphim Owen noted in his excellent post.

Elder Sophrony, On Prayer

The adoption of God's gift requires long probation and hard striving. Altogether there are three stages to the rebirth of fallen man and the putting on of the new. The first the initial stage is the summons and the inspiration to embark onthe ascetic struggle; the second happens when the feeling of grace is replaced by a sense of being abandoned by God, the point of which is to afford the ascetic striver the possiblity of volunteering fidelity to God. The third and final stage is the aquisition, for the second time, and preservation of 'perceptible' grace, linked now with intelligent cognition of God. He that is faithful in that which is least is faithfulalos in much.."

If I were to reword this in context here. God puts in us a simple apprehension of the gospel of Christ. We then struggle to really believe and live that gospel. Then that gospel becomes a living reality, a living theology and a living relationship.

Rick H.

27-05-2007, 12:25 AM

Dear Maria,

Thanks so much for the above post, it is such a blessing. I hope to be able to interact with it soon when I can give it the effort that it deserves!

Dear Celinda,

Thanks very much for your most enlightening post. You have covered much terrain here in a short time, and I understand that it is hard to not make some assumptions when we consider such topics as the one that this thread deals with. However, I wonder if you would have any other thoughts on the Logos/logoi principle as developed within Eastern Orthodoxy.

I think it is somewhat funny that our little crocus has received so much press here and in other threads. This has actually turned out to be a true vehicle of discovery for me even here in the monachos garden :) So, as it relates to the contemplation of the Logos by means of the logoi or in this case the crocus . . . I wonder what we find from the writings of the Eastern Orthodox pens about finding Christ or knowing Christ through, such things as, the crocus? Actually, this questions is answered somewhat sufficiently here, I think, in some of the above posts; however, I wonder if we could be helped to understand this concept better?

Also, I appreciate your answer in the following very much:

If I understand the terms right meditation is an ascetic practice that we do in order to quiet our mind. Contemplation is a state of mind wherein spiritual realities are experienced.

And, I wonder if this view represents a consensus here?

In Christ,
Rick

Celinda Grace

29-05-2007, 02:14 AM

Rick,

You asked about contemplation vs meditation and I found a quote by Elder Sophrony

"According to ancient tradition the mind unites with the heart when the monk continues in the ascetic feat of obedience and abstinence; when the mind, the heart and the very body of the 'old man' to a sufficient degree are freed from the dominion over them of sin. However, both early and present-day teachers occasionally permit recourse to a technical method of bringing the mind down into the heart.

To have the mind united with the heart is to be in a state of contemplation as I usually define contemplation (see below for a question on my definition), The technical method is a type of meditation. Note here that at this level it is contemplation of one's own interior state not contemplation of God.

Last time I talked about faith which helps the mind take hold of eternal truths and make them personal realities. It allows for the mind to come into conformity with the revelation of the gospel we receive from the Church. Without the heart engaged, though, this results in what I call an experiential certainty, but not yet a living reality.

later in the same passage I quoted above Elder Sophrony says

This method (the method of meditation he is describing) eventually enables the mind to see, not the physical heart but that which is happening within it - the feelings that creep in and the mental images that approach from without. With this experience the monk aquires the ability to feel his heart, and to continue with his attention centered in the heart without further recourse to psychosomatic technique....Nevertheless true prayer is not to be achieved thus. True prayer comes exclusively through faith and repentance accepted as the only foundation. The danger of psychotechnics is that not a few of us attribute too great a signifigance to method qua method.

What is important here is not the technique, but the fact that we ought to become aware of what is in our hearts. Rather then struggle with my thoughts in prayer as the monks do, I watch my motives. Am I doing a certain thing because it pleases me or in order to please God? Without a total conversion of the life to God there is no true prayer (prayer in the Spirit). Everything that we do we must do for the glory of God and out of love for Him rather then love for self. Over the years paying attention to my motives has developed a feel for what is in my heart just as Elder Sophrony says a meditative practice does. When I find I am doing something out of self-centered motives rather then love for God I repent.

It takes being rather ruthless in judging yourself. Asking such questions as, "Am I watching TV out of love for God or because 'I deserve a break today.?'" The 'I deserve a break today mindset' will quickly kill your spiritual life. When we take time to read or watch TV or other indulgences of the flesh, even then we ought to try to do it for the sake of keeping ourselves sane for those we have to interact with rather then simply for our own pleasure.

What we are doing in this is withdrawing our desires from being entrapped by created things so that our true interior desire for God can be freed. Try for a few weeks dropping some enjoyable luxury (such as spending time on Monachos :) ) that you enjoy and instead try praying. If your experience is anything like mine you will start to feel restless and discontent. That is the desire for God locked up in you looking for some outlet. If you are serious in living out of a love for God then He will help you by making your previous pleasures dry and stale. When once the soul has had a taste of God nothing else will satisfy.

St. Gregory Palmas says of the need for both purity of mind and heart

Suppose then that a person has purified his intellectual energy ... and has been to a certain extent enlightened either by the light of knowledge or in addition by noetic illumination. If he considers himself for this reason to be pure he deceives himself and is utterly mistaken...But if he recognizes his heart's impurity, and is not filled with pride because of the partial degree of purity he has attained, but uses it as an aid, then he will see more clearly the impurity of the other powers of his soul and will progress in humility; his inward grief will grow and he will find suitable ways of healing each of his soul's powers. He will cleanse its moral aspect with the right kind of ascetic practice, its power of spiritual apperception with spiritual knowledge, its power of contemplation with prayer; and in this way he will attain perfect, true and enduring pruity of heart and intellect."

I am not entirely sure in what sense St. Gregory is using the word contemplation here since he differentiates it from spiritual apperception. Maybe someone more knowledgable would care to comment.

Rick H.

29-05-2007, 02:57 PM

Dear Maria, Dear Celinda, [and Herman and Antonios]:

Why is it that we feel so worn out, at times, after our so called holiday weekends? ;) Possibly, this plays into our question here in this thread about the Contemplation of the Divine Logos [COTDL] the Contemplative Life. Either way, I am feeling a little fuzzy this morning, but I want to reply here, so please accept this disclaimer and excuse/forgive any excessive rambling. From my own self-ish perspective, if I could see one thread in this community move forward, it would be this one.

However, and knowing that I may possibly be in the minority of minorities with this view (and this hearkens back to an earlier disscussion in the Heart of Salvation thread--which does seem to keep 'looping back and intersecting with this thread at times such as now) as we consider COTDL and the Contemplative Life, and namely when we consider such things as the sides of a coin, or rungs on a ladder, or step #1, #2, #3, etc., or even a molieben strip . . . I cannot help but be compelled to think that the more systematic we become (possibly with the exception of the molieben strip suggestion) the further we are driven from such things as are being considered here.

I understand that one can easily move into the writings of those who have influenced the making of the modern theological mind as well as into the writings of the Church Fathers and Saints who have painted portraits for us and who have laid down the ground work of such considerations as this; but, neither of these approaches are conclusive at the end of the day as it relates to Me and possibly You, and it appears that after the dust has settled from previous attempts there is a conclusion (of sorts?) that concerning a personal spiritual practice it *is* each as is appropriate for oneself. And, as it relates to 'when' the Holy Spirit dwells in our souls and 'when' we put on the wedding garment, as you so beautifully write here Maria, as elsewhere that we *understand* and *see* and:

. . . the eyes of our hearts are opened and we perceive the Divine reality in which we live and move and have our being.

This is very good Maria thank you. And, we 'know' this is true because it could not be any more plain upon even a superficial reading of the scriptures. And, I would like to go on record here by saying that if this one *simple* fact is not recognized by any professing Christian, then this same Christian has never read the Holy Scriptures (or at least not the Pauline contributions for sure). Regardless of one's ecclesiology (or polity), this is IT. And, this is what I hope to learn more about here in this thread as it relates to the topic of this thread. Because, for me anyway, once this Ground is established and occupied, I think this is when the true rest for us non-shadow keepers is entered, and this sounds pretty good to me at this stage of the game I must confess. Yes, Robert, the Holy Silence that we spoke about last Christmas!

But, and in fact, especially as it relates to a recent post by Herman in the limiting of the Church thread ;) and another post by Antonios in the Energy and Essence thread, I sincerely hope that you BOTH will consider joining this conversation as it relates to your comments about physics and energy as it relates especially to what is being said the "Light from the East" book by Nesteruk that I have stumbled through in some previous posts here. In fact, I am remembering now Antonios, that you were quoting from this book last week, and Herman as it relates to your revealing post, if you could get a copy of this book, from even an interlibrary loan to look at I would really appreciate it. And, in return, the icon of the bear of small brain which you have posted on your personal profile will pass unmentioned, by me in, for at least another month.

But, as it relates to such things as An Orthodox Ontology? or An Orthodoxy Epistemology?, all is rubbish/garbage in comparison to what Maria has written about in the above one partial sentence! And, living up to my title as the Redundancy Vice President of Redundancy, I would like to say again, and very *simply* this is IT . . .

But, how do we become partakers of this IT is the question that I am posing at the present? As we consider non-systematic means/methods/techniques [like the crocus] as well as systematic means/methods/techniques [again like the crocus], as we consider such things as "struggling" and "surrendering" and "sovereignty;" as we consider such things as passivity and activity (as well as moving past all affirmations and negations) . . . how can there really be a moving beyond all of this great theory and begin to apply or "practice" and "experience" [for the lack of a better word] this "living and moving and having our 'being'" in God?

And, now without even getting to Celinda's last red hot post in which she has deeply cultivated the field and has it ready to seed here . . . I am starting to worry that I am taking this thread off course at the present. But, I think I will let it stand as is and hit the send button, while reserving the right to respond to Celinda's last two posts actually in the Heart of Salvation thread. Because, you, Celinda, have moved right into an area that I tried to spur conversation on as it relates to "techniques" and "a personal spiritual practice." Yes, I think this is what I will do. But, this time, being a little less green as a gourd, I am going to suit up with an army helmet and a flack jacket! :) If you decide to join me there as well Celinda, you may wish to do the same ;) this kind of conversation really seems to push some buttons. But, again, I have found more times than not here, that as the Good Doctor has said in the past, "Sometimes we have to push the wrong buttons to get the right answers." :0) So we will see . . .

So, in summary here in this thread: Maria and Celinda, is there ONE WAY that is the ONLY WAY for us to 'experience' the Logos/logoi as taught by the Eastern Orthodox Church, as quoted above in the blue block by Maria (and elsewhere by the Apostle Paul on Mars Hill)? Or is there more than ONE WAY (systematic or other) whereby it is each as is appropriate for oneself?

Betach,
Rick

PS Herman and Antonios, thanks ahead of time for any input here that you may have from your informed perspectives in particular as it relates to "Light from the East."

Celinda Grace

29-05-2007, 07:28 PM

Rick,

is there ONE WAY that is the ONLY WAY for us to 'experience' the Logos/logoi [quote]

I am not exactly sure what you are asking. Are you asking about methods or essence? I would say that there is more then one method. The question is what is the essence, the irreducible that we cannot get rid of. Repentance, love, obedience, surrender, struggle faith in Christ have all been mentioned are there others?

[quote]We must not lose sight however, that before we can even begin on such a path, we must first have conquered the passions through repentence and self denial. To embark on such a lofty endeavor without first being freed of sin and mastering the passions is an invitation to delusion and tragedy.

Father David has a good point here although I would contend that the conquering of the passions does not have to be thorough. What does have to be thorough is not seeking our own benefit. One thing that I think cripples the OC is that it can lead people into seeking after contemplation rather then seeking God apart from all else. Oswald Chambers stressed this complete abandon over and over again. We must come to the place where we can say, "Whatever you will Lord. And if that means faithfully collecting garbage and never having a single spiritual experience then I will be happy just to serve you." Seek His face, not His hands. At the center of our heart is a desire for God apart from any gift He gives us. It is a desire that transcends any interest in whether He gives us pain or pleasure, any interest in seeing the results of what He is doing in and through us, any thought of our own importance or protection. It is this that we must cooperate with the Spirit in freeing so that we can live from there.

We walk on the backs of the saints that have come before. I tend to agree with Maria that after 500 years of darkness we are on the verge of another Spiritual awakening. Gregory of Palmas and other mystics during that time did not just win the political battle for faith over reason and revelation over rationality (in fact in the RC the political battle was lost, but this does not make the prayers of those such as John of the Cross less effective) but a spiritual battle and we are seeing the fruit of it today. Modern rationalism is collapsing. The desert monks did not just overcome their own bodily passions in their prayer but we have inherited the fruit of it today. The prayers and actions of the saints change the very spiritual and cultural conditions under which we exist so that today our struggle is not over the same territory that they have already covered. If there is more sensitivity to spiritual things today it is because the saints have been bringing in the Kingdom of God.

I read Elder Sophrony's book and see the intense battle against hell and death that he fought, I cannot imagine the fruit we are reaping from the prayers of this man. But notice that His prayer is not primarily in the arena of the passions of the flesh such as the desert monks. The ground had already been broken for him.

As Maria quoted earlier:

A transfiguration process is now going on throughout the whole cosmos, directed from the inside by the risen Lord and with the loving cooperation of each Christian.

Rick H.

29-05-2007, 10:22 PM

I am not exactly sure what you are asking.

Dear Celinda,

After rereading my last post, I think my summary question was possibly too broad and not developed well enough in the post as a whole. But, instead of detracting from your excellent posts that you have made today with a second swing, I will keep this one short, and I would like to continue watching to see what others may have to chip in here, especially as it relates to some of Maria's key passages that you have emphasized. Maria has been so gracious and humble about the direction of this thread; however, she has worked so hard here, I find myself guarding against taking this thread off course with my other interests as I am attempting to learn about the Logos/logoi (which I have been completely ignorant of until this thread came along!)

Thanks again (and sorry 'bout that :)

In Christ,
Rick

Antonios

30-05-2007, 09:26 AM

Dear Celinda,

Thank you for the above post. I think your describing an evolving 'collective mind' of the Church, i.e. the understanding and prayers of the Church today is beyond the understanding and prayers of the saints of the past, not competetively, but cooperatively. Greater, in the sense that the Church today includes the prayers and saints of the past. I don't know the Orthodox answer to that, it is an interesting notion.

I am not convinced of your statement that 'after 500 years of darkness we are on the verge of another Spiritual awakening'. This seems a bit too New Age for my liking. The Orthodox Church has never stopped producing saints, even when the most base philosophical societies attacked Her. True, the teachings of the saints reflect the times of their day, often time addressing varying cultures and heresies of their time. However, the message is always one of repentance and love and the following of the Lord's commandments. Thus we fast because the Lord fasted and told us to fast. We forgive because the Lord forgave and told us to forgive. We partake of His Body and Blood because He did and told us to. We follow the Holy Orthodox Church because, though Jesus had thousand of followers in His ministry on earth, He chose 12 as His closest disciples and it is the faith and practices of these Apostles that has been handed down since the day of Pentecost, first in traditions and later in writings.

The Spiritual awakening that needs to take place starts in the desert of our own heart. First it must start there. The idea you propose that the lives of the saints (by their individual lifestyles, practices and prayers) have made it unneccessary and even redundant in emulating, is one frought with dangers. The passions are still the same now as then (they only change their ease in applicability). Satan, the great deceiver, changes only his appearance, never his ultimate motive. Thus, the purification of our lives still involves covering the same ground as the saints, no matter where or when we live. This is a life in faith, repentance, and love, of which the Church has maintained and preserved.

Rick H.

30-05-2007, 06:49 PM

Dear Antonios, and All [and Herman],

It is very good to see you here in this thread Antonios, thanks very much for your post--it will be interesting to see what follow-up there may be. And, concerning Herman, I guess, "If the mountain will not come to Muhammad, then Muhammad will go to the mountain" sort of . . .

Today in the 'Energy and Essence' thread, Dave asked:

In what way does the logos differ from the energies?

To which Herman replied:

Because the Logos is Christ, the source of the energies.

And, now I would like to ask a follow up question of sorts, which is:

In what way does the logoi differ from the energies?

In Christ,
Rick

PS Celinda, I took the liberty of responding to your last post to me in the Heart of Salvation thread--hope to see you there.

Celinda Grace

31-05-2007, 02:15 AM

Antonius,

I can tell by the nature of your response that you misinterpreted what I was saying about 500 years of darkness and spiritual awakening.

All I was saying is that in some eras there is more change going on in the church and more activity of the Spirit then others. The mass exodus into the desert was one, the 1200's-1400's another. This is usually in response to changing cultural conditions (the acceptance of Christianity and end of persecution, the Enlightenment) that endanger the Church. The current danger that I see is postmodernism and the relativism and subjectivism that it produces.

I see much here on this site defending the Church against 'western' (ie rationalistic) heresies. However, I feel that God is moving to prepare the Church to defend herself against the new threat of postmodernism. The re-emphasis on the Patristic Tradition and the growing interest in contemplation and spiritual knowledge are the only answers in a society that has seen that rational knowledge cannot bring unity nor healing, and is instead sliding toward total rejection of any truth outside their own subjective perspective. Postmodernism fully developed is a total entrapment in the self's own knowledge with no escape. (Try reading a page of Derrida once)

In the rejection of rationalism there are only two options -a unity and healing built on spiritual knowledge (ie a subjective relationship with the Absolute) or total individualism.

The emphasis on the need for spiritual direction is another growing movement within (and without) the Church. God made us with a built in need for authority, a need to be in a family structure and the Church provides a context for that.

Fr Raphael Vereshack

31-05-2007, 03:54 PM

Celinda wrote

The current danger that I see is postmodernism and the relativism and subjectivism that it produces.

I see much here on this site defending the Church against 'western' (ie rationalistic) heresies. However, I feel that God is moving to prepare the Church to defend herself against the new threat of postmodernism. The re-emphasis on the Patristic Tradition and the growing interest in contemplation and spiritual knowledge are the only answers in a society that has seen that rational knowledge cannot bring unity nor healing, and is instead sliding toward total rejection of any truth outside their own subjective perspective. Postmodernism fully developed is a total entrapment in the self's own knowledge with no escape. (Try reading a page of Derrida once)

In the rejection of rationalism there are only two options -a unity and healing built on spiritual knowledge (ie a subjective relationship with the Absolute) or total individualism.

The emphasis on the need for spiritual direction is another growing movement within (and without) the Church. God made us with a built in need for authority, a need to be in a family structure and the Church provides a context for that.

I think Celinda is correct that what we suffer from at the present time is a culture that appeals to what is most subjective & selfish. Of course the sin of selfishness has always been present since the Fall. But never before have we seen an actual culture with its very core values defined by the individual and his/her own 'take on life'. This is unique to our time and sums up the greatest challenge for the Church at present.

We Orthodox need to be more careful however about describing the problem as rationalism. This category originally arose during the 19th century under the influence of German romantic historians. Every people, culture and nation was described as having its own spirit and under this influence we began describing the difference between east and west as one of mysticism vs rationalism and spirituality vs legalism. This influence was decisive for those of us raised as Orthodox in the west up until the last few decades.

Yet it needs to be questioned whether this influence was Patristic. Given that the age we live in has at times been overly rationalistic in the sense that reason has been seen as sovereign as opposed to religion the description of the problem we face as rationalism has served some purpose. But our age has also been just as marked by a deep anti-rationalism and nihilism, something more likely to come from the romantic side of the equation than the rational. So it seems that the dichotomy we use to describe our culture describes a problem of a society of conflicting values rather than one set of these values being more inherently positive in regards to the Church than the others.

In any case, rationality should not at all be seen as evil unless reason is detached from the light of an illumined heart & seen as a totally independent faculty unto itself. For us the intellect is not just something which should come under the influence of what is spiritual. According to the Fathers intellect is a faculty which naturally overlaps with the noetic. Salvation therefore involves the illumination in Christ of how we presently know God and man and the rest of creation.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

Rick H.

31-05-2007, 05:42 PM

Dear Celinda,

You are keeping me busy these days--thanks! :)

Especially, in the following as you have written in two separate posts recently:

Originally Posted by Celinda Grace

If I understand the terms right meditation is an ascetic practice that we do in order to quiet our mind. Contemplation is a state of mind wherein spiritual realities are experienced.

To have the mind united with the heart is to be in a state of contemplation as I usually define contemplation (see below for a question on my definition), The technical method is a type of meditation. Note here that at this level it is contemplation of one's own interior state not contemplation of God.

You show that it IS possible to answer a question with a straight answer at times! Thanks again. And, I will share with you that as a rule, this is how I make the distinction also as it relates to what we call "meditation" and "contemplation."

I also associate the word 'method' with the word "meditation" and see it as being more of a technical thing as you say, and a practice that we "do" which is more indicative of our own interior state and is on a separate level from what we call "contemplation."

And, I don't want to appear to be contradicting myself, but also at times I think that there is no difference between these two events, in terms of an overlapping area or a stepping up (for the lack of a better term at the present--grimace), or maybe a better way to say it is when meditation moves to contemplation as it does at times, then these words have no distinction of meaning (as do any others during such times).

But, what I am trying to get at here is exactly what you have said so well in so few words above that mediation, as a technique, is not contemplation of God; but, instead is a contemplation of one's own interior state. However, and this is a big however, we are included in the logoi with the other creations/creatures of this world, and this is what I am struggling with as it relates to the teachings of the Church on the Logos/logoi that we are discussing here. Do you see what I mean? Does anyone see what I mean?

Because, from where I sit, this place right here[!] holds the most fertile soil as it relates to a common ground, or ANY OTHER KIND of ground. And, I will make a statement now, that may possibly be ill received by some, but I feel strongly that to explore this particular aspect of the Logos/logoi concept will either demonstrate that this is a great theory even though it doesn't hold water, or possibly put it out there in a most helpful way. In fact this is exactly what I was attempting to get at with a little series I started in the HOS thread awhile back when I quoted Nellas and Mantzaridis, on 4/3-4/6, and suggested a comparison and contrast of what was being presented by these two (which makes the very distinctions that you are making here above Celinda!).

And, this subject/thread continues to frustrate me to be honest with you, as I realize again here that despite my very high level of interest in what is being presented, I am once again struggling to find the right words or approach to even get a toehold on this thing . . .

The Nellas and Matzaridis essays on this subject speak directly to what I am trying to get at for anyone who has a cup of coffee now and nothing to read . . .

But, let me try it this way please . . . in an attempt to get at least one leg up here . . .

. . . as meditation and contemplation are defined above (with the exception of meditation being limited to a quieting of the mind):

1.) Would 'we' here in this thread consider meditation of the logoi (via nature, plants, animals, etc.) to be a vehicle/method/technique that leads to the Contemplation of the Divine Logos Himself and in this sense the mediation of the logoi is a vehicle for union with God through in the form of His energies in His creation/logoi?

Or . . .

2.) Is it through working your way through a systematic path which includes this and that in which you may or may not by God's grace find yourself presented with the gift of Contemplation of the logoi (wherein contemplation of spiritual realities/energies are experienced and the mind is united in the heart), because of your status you have achieved, and because of the ability to Contemplate of the Divine Logos already?

UGH! This is a mess, but I am going to send it anyway just in case pushing this button may yield a good result. But, in my research all of what is said seems to boil down into these two views which really do seem to be opposing views and not just things that need to be harmonized.

And, I love a good dialectic, but it seems clear to me that one of these two views, both of which seem to be expressed/found *within* Eastern Orthodoxy, is to come at this backwards! Unless, of course, we are to say that although these are two different approaches, they are both viable.

In Christ,
Rick

Celinda Grace

31-05-2007, 07:37 PM

Rick,

You sound to me like you are looking for a tecnique, a sure fire method for reaching some state of mind that we call contemplation. It is not about methods it is about a relationship based on faith.

All you have to do is read the lives of the saints to realize that there is no systematic anything. God works with each individual uniquely.

I am skimmiing through a book about Mother Gavrilia today. She had no theological gift such as St. Maximus, but had a deep empathy and understanding of people and was considered a great spiritual director, reflecting in her life that great Lover of men.

My adopted grandmother was one of the most humble people I have ever met. Never thought of herself in anything. In my eyes a saint, such an example, yet when she was sick she once she said to me, "I don't know why God leaves me here, yet He must have His purpose in it." I could only think to myself, "Because He wants to bless us." But she considered that she had nothing to offer and was only a burden. Those last years of her life she just glowed with His sweetness and was a blessing just by her presence. It was part of her sweetness that she had no conscious knowledge of her own deep spirituality.

God is the stage director in this drama we call the Coming of the Kingdom of God and He has assigned each of us unique and special parts. For some to fulfill their part they may require the gift of contemplation such as we are speaking about. For others it may be other gifts such as mercy or teaching. The point is not the gift it is the Giver. He gives Himself to all in equal abundance. We simply trust that God is God and has us exactly where we need to be right at this moment and that weare growing according to His will and working out our own part in His eternal plan in the midst of our struggles.

I will repeat here what I said in my comment on the self-worth thread:

When we give up striving and say, "OK I don't care if I am perfect as long as I can be used by Christ and be with Him." Then the peace comes in.

I have wondered before why we have to go through this struggle against sin after we are baptised. Why didn't God make it so that we just recieve the whole package of healing at once? I realized that our struggle is Christ's invitation for us to be with Him in His work of redeeming humanity.

Our life in Christ is not ultimately about becoming perfect, it is about being with Christ, suffering with Christ and through this bringing Christ more fully into the world. We don't have to be perfect to do this, we are already doing it in the struggle.

Elzabet

31-05-2007, 07:53 PM

...You sound to me like you are looking for a tecnique, a sure fire method for reaching some state of mind that we call contemplation. It is not about methods it is about a relationship based on faith.

All you have to do is read the lives of the saints to realize that there is no systematic anything. God works with each individual uniquely.

...When we give up striving and say, "OK I don't care if I am perfect as long as I can be used by Christ and be with Him." Then the peace comes in.

I have wondered before why we have to go through this struggle against sin after we are baptised. Why didn't God make it so that we just recieve the whole package of healing at once? I realized that our struggle is Christ's invitation for us to be with Him in His work of redeeming humanity.

Our life in Christ is not ultimately about becoming perfect, it is about being with Christ, suffering with Christ and through this bringing Christ more fully into the world. We don't have to be perfect to do this, we are already doing it in the struggle.

I desperately needed to "hear" that today. Thank you.

Rick H.

31-05-2007, 10:11 PM

I'm sending out an SOS . . . (anyone remember the Police?)

Rick,

You sound to me like you are looking for a technique, a sure fire method for reaching some state of mind that we call contemplation. It is not about methods it is about a relationship based on faith.

All you have to do is read the lives of the saints to realize that there is no systematic anything. God works with each individual uniquely.

Dear Celinda,

Are you trying to tell me that there is no "sure fire method for reaching some state of mind that we call contemplation?" I hope not! ;) Next thing, you will be trying to tell me that there is no such thing as the Great Pumpkin!. . . or the Great Pumpkin Principle (GPP); but, that for another day. So obviously, I am kidding here, but while your crystal ball may need a tune-up, you are not completely out of the ball park as you try to divine why I have such a high level of interest in this subject.

And, as you additionally assert "there is no systematic anything" I think I am seeing that you are more spunky in the afternoon than you are at other times when you compose your posts--could it be that you are an afternoon espresso drinker as well? :) And, as well, it appears that you are seeing what I am seeing in my reading of the saints--NO SYSTEMATICS here! . . . which is what I hope to have some follow up conversation on here in this thread. Because it almost seems like some have suggested a list of sorts, that has line items on it that need to be checked off, so to speak.

Actually, I have been hoping that some of the long time Orthodox would join this conversation and stay with us to help shed some light on this Logos/logoi concept, the Contemplation of the Divine Logos. You are a Protestant (and it really shows in your last post by the way), and I am an ex-Protestant by most peoples standards [even though I fought off that label the best I could], and here we are fumbling and stumbling and faltering along as we try to understand the teaching of the Church on this concept.

Possibly, therein lies some of my frustration, whereby, so far my experience with Orthodoxy can be can be pretty well represented by this type of thing. An issue comes up, everyone quotes their favorite saint or father. We hear that I was taught this, or I was taught that . . . or this bishop said this or that bishop said that, or this monk said this, or this priest said that, and then we all divide up into PARTICULAR camps/tribes with the others that think like we do (birds of a feather) . . . and then people start lobbing things over the fence at each other--I guess in an effort to persuade them that they are right or to demonstrate why the one should join the other in his view or his group's 'consensus?'

And, as it relates to this, I guess it doesn't matter what one's background is because anyone can do this sort of thing--it takes no special training or understanding to do this does it? So we will see I guess.

But, in the meantime, I would just like to point out that some very specific questions have been asked here about the Contemplation of the Divine Logos--Logos/logoi, and hopefully, there is someone who can help in our midst.

I see above some conversation about the Postmodern Myth, and while I would love to sink my teeth into that . . . especially as it relates to the Postmodern myth in practice, and a Postmodern epistemology as it ovelapps with Orthodoxy in practice, and an Orthodox epistemology . . . I think I am going to hold out to see if anyone can weigh in here on the topic at hand. I cannot supply the firepower here on this one, possibly no one else can either and it is just that *simple.*

Hmmm . . . did someone say *simple*? Herman, how 'bout cranking up that little [mechanical physics] brain of yours and skimming a copy of "Light from the East," especially the end of the book and bringing his work into this thread. Even from my limited point of view, I am fully persuaded that Maria has this thread sitting on ready and really ready to go places, but we need some help. And, Antonios, if you are reading this, I can imagine how busy you are, but knowing you have a copy of this book on your shelves, I wonder if you could help us out in any way here. I am not generally a fan of secondary sources, in such things, but this book seems pretty good to me.

So, thanks very much Celinda for your excellent work here, it is a pleasure to have you here in this community, your contributions are invaluable (and I am looking forward to responding to your Heart of Salvation post soon--even though you already took all the easy traps :) . . . and by the way Dear Sister, I am the one asking the questions there! :) :) :) Just kidding, I think we need more questions at times. But, ultimately, in this thread, you and I need some help here.

And, even though you will probably tell me that my crystal ball is completely broken when you read this, I think you will make an excellent Orthodox when you 'convert' one day in the future---possibly a Russian Orthodox! ;) The Russians seem pretty spunky--I wonder if they like coffee? :) Yes, from now on there is FREE COFFEE for any who can contribute to the Logos/logoi conversation beginning now . . .

In Christ,
Rick

Antonios

01-06-2007, 12:17 AM

what I am trying to get at here is exactly what you have said so well in so few words above that mediation, as a technique, is not contemplation of God; but, instead is a contemplation of one's own interior state. However, and this is a big however, we are included in the logoi with the other creations/creatures of this world, and this is what I am struggling with as it relates to the teachings of the Church on the Logos/logoi that we are discussing here. Do you see what I mean? Does anyone see what I mean?

Dear Rick,

I'm sorry I haven't been of much help on this thread. The truth is, I don't know the answer to your question! I have started reading "Light from the East", but its getting a bit too 'heavy' for me lately. In fact, I have found myself reading, and re-reading, and re-reading each paragraph just to move on to the next! My little brain can only take so many 25 cent words at a given time!!

I do recall having had a better understanding to your specific inquiry a few years back when I read the Philokalia. My basic understanding, as taken from the glossary of the Philokalia is that "as a unitary cosmic principle, the Logos contains in Himself the multiple logoi (inner principles or inner essences, thoughts of God) in accordance with which all things come into existence at the times and places, and in the forms, appointed for them, each single thing thereby containing in itself the principle of its own development. It is these logoi, contained principlially in the Logos and manifest in the forms of the created universe, that constitute the first or lower stages of contemplation."

As for a 'method' or 'technique' in discovering these inner principles of things, the Fathers make it clear that this ability is a gift from God, given to those who have undergone katharsis through a life of self-denial, ascetic living and the practice of virtues. Through such a process of purification, the nous becomes spiritually attuned to itself and all creation. The mind of the heart then begins to understand the inner essence of things, as they relate in and to the Logos of God.

This is, in fact, the first stages of contemplation (though of course, may take a long time to develop depending on the individual and their level of spiritual growth). From here, the intellect begins to perceive higher stages of contemplation, until the Highest, which is God Himself.

I don't think this exactly answers your question, but I hope it helps in some way.

Antonios

01-06-2007, 01:56 AM

Dear Rick,

I just wanted to add that if there is a method as such, it is similar to what is used in Orthodox monasteries, that is in prayer and in the hesychiatic approach towards inner stillness. This is the method of contemplation which the whole Orthodox tradition is based upon, which is strongly influenced by the apophatic approach towards the knowledge of God. Through the guarding of the heart and intellect and through the practice of pure prayer (and ceaseless prayer at that), the persons concentration focuses on 'listening' to God, on being an open vessel for the Holy Spirit. In this state, the realities of reality are known noetically and spiritually. The logoi of created things begin to be discerned and through this the vastness and magnitude of the power of God is glimpsed. The indescribable glory in His Divine Will is expressed and received in relationship. And finally the Love for Him overcomes one's entire being. The saints have reached such love. And revealed to them was the state of complete tranquility, in loving communion with God, while basked in the His Eternal Light.

Celinda Grace

01-06-2007, 03:33 PM

And, even though you will probably tell me that my crystal ball is completely broken when you read this, I think you will make an excellent Orthodox when you 'convert' one day in the future---possibly a Russian Orthodox! ;) The Russians seem pretty spunky--I wonder if they like coffee? :) Yes, from now on there is FREE COFFEE for any who can contribute to the Logos/logoi conversation beginning now . . .

In Christ,
Rick

Your crystal ball is pretty good. I have already gone to talk to the local priest here and am going to attend my first service tomorrow for Vespers. I have no idea what branch it is, I was going to ask and forgot.

I am going to post some things regarding the rest of your post in the HOS thread as it goes much better there.

John Charmley

01-06-2007, 03:39 PM

Dear Celinda,

I have learned that Rick's instincts are pretty good - and congratulations at going along to the Vespers. As a recent convert, I wish you all the best for the experience, and hope that (as your posts here are to us) it will be a blessing to you.

Do let us know how it goes.

In prayer for you,

John

Herman Blaydoe

01-06-2007, 04:38 PM

I love Vespers. It is a nice, quiet, "contemplative" sense about it. It is also a wonderful way to LEARN what we believe, in the tropars and stikera and juxtaposition of the Psalms and Prophets with the Truth of the Risen Christ.

I look forward to what you might share with us.

Maria Mahoney

02-06-2007, 12:04 PM

"But no one,' continued St. Seraphim, 'has given you a precise answer. They have said to you: "Go to church, pray to God, do the commandments of God, do good - that is the aim of the Christian life." Some were even indignant with you for being occupied with such profane curiosity and said to you, "Do not seek things which are beyond you." But they did not speak as they should. Now humble Seraphim will explain to you of what this aim really consists."

1) "we must begin with a right faith in our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, Who came into the world to save sinners and Who, through our acquiring for ourselves the grace of the Holy Spirit, brings into our hearts the Kingdom of God and opens the way for us to win the blessings of the future life."

2) "when it (a good work) is done for Christ's sake, since good done for Him not only merits a crown of righteousness in the world to come, but also in this present life fills us with the grace of the Holy Spirit. Moreover, it is said: "God does not give the Spirit by measure" (John 3:34-35)."

3) "Of course, every good deed done for Christ's sake gives us the grace of the Holy Spirit, but prayer gives us this grace most of all, for it is always at hand, as an instrument for acquiring the grace of the Spirit."

4) "The soul speaks and converses during prayer, but at the descent of the Holy Spirit we must remain in complete silence, in order to hear clearly and intelligibly all the words of eternal life which he will then deign to communicate. Complete soberness of soul and spirit, and chaste purity of body is required at the same time...For our God is a fire which consumes everything unclean, and no one who is defiled in body or spirit can enter into communion with Him."

http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/sermon_st_seraphim.htm#n2

We have to live holy/consecrated lives....Lives set totally apart to God. Lives filled with good works for the sake of Christ. We have to ASK. We have to be silent and listen. And we know that the Holy Spirit will not abide with those who love evil.

In Christ,
Maria

Rick H.

02-06-2007, 04:20 PM

Dear Antonios,

Thank you very much for your last two posts. I appreciate it that you understand the question that I ask, and I am grateful for your contribution(s) towards this end.

I know what you mean about the Nesteruk book. The first part of the book is pretty straight forward, but once he starts building towards his conclusion there is a definite investment required to continue tracking with him. It is odd to me, but I have noticed that if I read "Light from the East" when I am tired, I can move along in a better way than when I am more alert.

But, I appreciate your posts because I can bullet point what you have said and in so doing come down out of the clouds with this conversation in a most pleasing way. And, in an effort to be brief, for once, I would like to say that you have provided a very clear model, one that I think agrees with what Maria has presented, as it relates to both the theory and practice of the Contemplation of the Divine Logos (COTDL). Thanks again very much for this, most helpful to me from where I stand.

However, and while I am at a severe handicap now because my copy of Nesteruk's book went back to the university from which I had it on an interlibrary loan . . . I think I am seeing another reading of the fathers as it relates to the COTDL. In other essays, as well, it appears to me that there is a movement indicated towards the Logos through the logoi, which seems to be akin to what we have established or associated with the word "method" here recently (as it relates to a personal spiritual practice).

Or to put it another way . . . if we say that the view that you have shared/expressed is Model "A" which appears to be the majority view, I think I am seeing a Model "B" which is possibly the minority view.

And, again, from my point of view, you have covered much ground in a short time, and I personally have no more questions about Model "A." I can bullet point what you have shared and feel good about this introduction/outline just as it stands (even with the very high level of subjectivity, and the very low level of objectivity that is present here).

But, it is Model "B" that I would like to focus now in order to have a fuller understanding of the material that I have read during my research efforts of the past few months. In Model "B" I think I am seeing a presentation, in between all the defense of the fathers against the charge of pantheism, whereby they in a contrived way, or as a technique of sorts, make a movement, or position themselves for a greater grace by contemplating or meditating, possibly better yet, on a plant or a tree for example.

And, I understand that it is easy to dismiss such things as what has been presented by some here, and what I am sharing now by simply emphasizing the fact that well over 70% of my research has been done through second hand sources, and interpreters of the saints and the fathers. Just as some have said that Zizioulas is providing a faulty reading of the father's which lies at the foundation of his work, the same could be said for some like Nesteruk or the other authors of the essays I have read. I understand this. But, at the same time, we have had nothing other than 'sound bites' (not unlike what Herman mentioned in a recent post) presented in this thread to support Model "A." So, I could just as easily assert that what appears to me to be the majority view---"A"--- is in fact the minority, because no one can prove otherwise via a substantial treatise on the subject! Whereas the opposite is true for Model "B."

So, possibly we have taken this as far as we can here due to a lack of data?

On the one hand, as Tevye says in 'The Fiddler,' we have sound bites to make a very strong case for "A;" but on the other hand, we have some thorough discourses (which utilize some of these same sound bites) to make a case for "B." And, now I am thinking of a scene from "The Fiddler on the Roof" when the men are gathered in town around a newspaper. One man makes a statement, and another replies "He is right!" Then another makes a contradictory statement, and the same man replies again, "He is right!" And, then this man is challenged by another who says, "You say he is right, but you also say he is right . . . they cannot both be right" . . . to which the man replies again, "You are right!" (and I think as they are laughing at this point, someone in the background says 'well put--well put!).

So I don't know, maybe this is The Orthodox Way?

But, regardless of whether this is the Orthodox Way or whether we just need someone to come into this conversation that has a background in Early Church History and can point us to an actual first hand source or document that is longer than a paragraph or two, I am running on fumes here I think.

Or, maybe it is just this *simple* as we consider what you have shared from the Philokalia "glossary":

". . . that "as a unitary cosmic principle, the Logos contains in Himself the multiple logoi (inner principles or inner essences, thoughts of God) in accordance with which all things come into existence at the times and places, and in the forms, appointed for them, each single thing . . ."

Because, if we agree with this 'definition' then we would see the 'unitary cosmic principle' as an integrative motif of the highest order (one that cannot be shot down by pointing to any 'arm' coming from it that would seemingly disqualify this theroy/principle!) And, as we add our Trinitarian doctrine into this thinking of our integrative motif, it becomes a very beautifully colored, prismatic integrative motif wherein all things pass in, through, and to the Logos of God--direction is meaningless in this case whereby both "A" and "B" are true Truth as it relates to the second Person of the Trinity.

So, again, in lieu of even one first hand document that devotes more than one or two paragraphs to this subject we are once again left with something along the lines of "which sounds right to you?" And, in this sense, if this is the Orthodox Way, then maybe it's not so bad in some cases such as this. Or is it?

But, I guess that is another question altogether isn't it? I mean as we take for example the myth of postmodernity which has been suggested by one man and then developed by others, and then overdeveloped by others to the point where it is total fiction in its varied offerings and interpretations, the original point which spoke of a true shift in 'our' thinking, or as some may say an cosmic evolution, has been long lost!

Because there is no reality to what was suggested in the first place, this was a creative interpretation of a movement which was and is the last dying gasp of a defeated modernity. So, in this sense it was fiction building upon fiction, but the truly maddening thing is that now people are trying to discern the proper view of this whole matter! The 'foundation' of the whole discussion was very meaningful many years ago as people attempted to understand a real event or shift in the way we know and perceive truth (with a lower case 't'), but this is long lost--probably never to be "retrieved" by any retrieval effort. And, now in this discussion/conversation it has moved to a place of "what sounds right to you?" as well.

So I guess we will see . . .

But, please allow me to thank you again very much Antonios for your most helpful contributions to this thread. And, about your free coffee, for which I think two free coffee vouchers from Starbucks are in order!--please see the thread initiator, Maria, about this :)

In Christ,
Rick

Celinda Grace

03-06-2007, 02:57 AM

Rick,

in an effort to be brief, for once, brief, ???????????
Hey guys what of it? The day that Rick manages to be brief we can all get together and buy him a years supply worth of Starbucks coffee. :)

Herman and John,

I just got back from Vespers a while ago. My heart was at rest but my mind wandered. The fact that the words were chanted rather then simply said made it almost impossible for me to understand them much less focus on what was being said.

Celinda Grace

Rick H.

03-06-2007, 04:13 AM

brief, ???????????
Hey guys what of it? The day that Rick manages to be brief we can all get together and buy him a years supply worth of Starbucks coffee. :)

Dear Celinda,

http://images.art.com/images/products/regular/10204000/10204551.jpg (http://affiliates.art.com/get.art?T=15023284&A=028853&L=8&P=10204551&S=2&Y=0)

As Curly Joe used to say, "Hey! I resemble that remark" . . . LOL :) You got me! :)

I am interested in the second part of your post too. Thanks very much for sharing this with us, your honesty and transparency are a blessing to us all. I have been considering a new thread in the Liturgy/Liturgical Study area that would deal with just this topic (as well as others), possibly now is the time to make a move in this direction.

And, now in order to have any chance at all for the years supply of Starbucks coffee, as a local radio show host, Gary Burbank, says when he is finished for the day, "I must be off." Thanks again for the laugh--very good :)

Praying for you, as the Journey continues, In Christ,
Rick

John Charmley

03-06-2007, 08:43 AM

Dear Celinda,

Thank you for sharing your experience with us; I do hope you feel able to persevere with the experience.

Thank you too (and Rick) for the humour; it is good to be able to smile whilst contemplating serious things.

Can I offer the following, from St. Gregory of Nyssa, for reflection as it relates to the theme of this thread:

O you who are possessed with the desire to contemplate the true good, when you hear that the divine majesty is exalted above the heavens and that His glory is unfathomable, His beauty ineffable, His nature incomprehensible, do not despair of being able to see the object of your desires ... . You have only to return to the purity of image established in you in the beginning: you will find what you seek, for once the spirit is cleansed and free from all wickedness, you will find the blessed vision in the serenity of your heart. There you will find purity, holiness, simplicity, all those gentle radiances of the divine nature by which God is seen, De beatitudinibus,6.

In Christ,

John

Rick H.

03-06-2007, 02:58 PM

Dear John, and All,

Thank you for the quote from Gregory. I appreciate the message here. However, I am seeing the word 'all' used as a modifier in a way that makes me wonder, and possibly opens an avenue of understanding as it relates to COTDL:

for once the spirit is cleansed and free from all wickedness, you will find the blessed vision in the serenity of your heart.

Please look at the way "all" is used as a modifier in this conditional 'promise' if you will. Possibly, this is why I am stumbling along in my attempt to understand what is being said about our topic?

When I read things like the above which say things like, "for once the spirit is cleansed and free from all wickedness . . ." I take this literally, and I think to myself, well I don't know anyone who is cleansed and free from all wickedness. And, then I have to consider, if this is not meant to be taken literally, then what is being said here? And, in other words, if I am not to read this literally, then how should it be taken?

I think of the teaching of others on this subject who speak of a moment-by-moment Spirit filling as we yield to the Spirit on a moment-by-moment basis and this makes sense to me in light of the Holy Scriptures taken as a whole. A strong case can be made for this with little effort from the writings of the Apostles. So, I wonder if this is what is being implied as we consider the conditional promises of Scripture in relation to "the blessed vision" or "the Spirit-filled life?"

And, in conclusion if this is the case, then our topic as a whole comes into view much more clearly I think, and in some ways is moved to the launch pad as opposed to back to the drawing board.

Thanks very much for this post John which is very helpful in many ways.

In Christ,
Rick

Herman Blaydoe

03-06-2007, 03:00 PM

I just got back from Vespers a while ago. My heart was at rest but my mind wandered. The fact that the words were chanted rather then simply said made it almost impossible for me to understand them much less focus on what was being said.

It takes time. Your ear is not "tuned" to hearing the chanting. It is an acquired skill, perhaps an acquired taste.

Antonios

04-06-2007, 12:18 AM

Rick H.

04-06-2007, 03:46 AM

Dear Rick and others,

In my little free time lately, I have not had a chance to address this thread as I would like to. I have, though, (re)picked up the book "Light from the East" and am three feet deep in cosmological principles that are truly mind blowing! I do hope to be able to come back to this thread in the next couple of days. I want to first understand what I'm writing before I start pretending to know. In the meantime, I am very happy with the recent posts. It seems that we are progressing in a very real way. I pray this continues.

Dear Antonios,

That sounds super! I will see about getting another copy of this book. Especially as it relates to the 'cosmological principles,' I would love to get a conversation going here on this, as well as continue with the COTDL. I suspect that there may be some lurking, here at Monachos.net, whom could really add to this as well, for the benefit of all. But, as has been said before, everything in God's timing.

Thanks again.

In Christ,
Rick

Maria Mahoney

04-06-2007, 10:09 AM

On Union With God and Life of Theoria
By Kallistos Katafytiotis (identified with Kallistos Angelikoudis)

*Explanations of terms can be found in the Glossary, at the end of this article.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Translator's Note:
Kallistos Angellikoudis's masterpiece (14th Century?), which was included in the 5th volume of the Philokalia, has not yet been published in English translation. This is my humble attempt to bring to the English speaking world an important work of traditional Christianity: union with God (theosis, deification, becoming god by Grace, self-realization, the acquisition of the Holy Spirit; "glorification" being the term in the Old and New Testaments), which is man's purpose in life according to the Orthodox Tradition, as presented to us by a saint who experienced it.

http://www.greekorthodoxchurch.org/union_with_god_kallistos_katafytiotis_angelikoudis .html

In Christ,
Maria

Maria Mahoney

04-06-2007, 10:57 AM

"Tradition! Tradition! Tradition!"

In the early Church Tradition is how Christians were taught about contemplation...and even how we know today concerning things of the Faith. So we need to stay within the Church, be under a spiritual father/mother, live our Faith, and receive the Sacraments if we ever wish to understand how to understand!

In Christ,
Maria

Maria Mahoney

19-11-2007, 09:23 PM

Spirit-filled Orthodox Christians are the priests of the Cosmic Liturgy. As said before in previous posts - We have to live holy/consecrated lives....Lives set totally apart to God. Lives filled with good works for the sake of Christ. We have to ASK. We have to be silent and listen. And we know that the Holy Spirit will not abide with those who love evil.

What does Christ's Priesthood have to do with us and the discussion of divine essences? The Church is the Body of Christ, and as such, we also have a share in His Priesthood through our Chrismation and ascetic purification...

Part of our work as priests consists in the contemplation of divine essences ... bringing material creation to noetic reality ... and returning the noetic reality to the material creation....

When the Holy Spirit dwells in our souls, when we put on the wedding garment of the Holy Spirit, the eyes of our hearts are opened and we perceive the Divine reality in which we live and move and have our being.

So as it was said before ... the kingdom of God is already here... Clothed in the wedding garment of the Holy Spirit we see Christ on Mt. Tabor in His Glory; we understand the preaching of the Apostles, each in our own language; and suddenly, we behold the Kingdom of Heaven!

Mankind stands between two worlds - the Spiritual and the Material Creation. Our work in creation is to transform the universe in Christ. We are creatures of Prayer and Contemplation. In prayer, we co-operate with God being transformed through Theosis, into the mystical Body of Christ, then our inner being offers glory to God, being joined to the mystical sacrifice of Christ. In Contemplation, we co-operate with God in transforming the universe - we raise creation up to God in contemplating the inner being, (the essence, finding the fingerprint of God and receiving enlightenment), of God's creation. God reveals Himself to us, and we raise creation up to God by receiving His revelation.We elevate creation to a higher plane of existence, making it nobler, sanctifying it as a holy vessel of God;It becomes a bearer of light.

The reverse would be to use it for self-gratification, evil, and sinful purposes. The elevated, nobler, sanctified creation then glorifies the Creator and offers its' inner, essential glory to God. Then we stand unified in the Body of Christ, offering glory to God, as a new creation in Christ, as God reveals Himself to us, from one glory to another ... eternally.

St. Maximos the Confessor said:

"The Logos has made men equal to the angels. Not only did He 'make peace through the blood of His Cross... between things on earth and things in heaven' (Col. 1:20), and reduce to impotence the hostile powers that fill the intermediary region between heaven and earth, thereby making the festal assembly of earthly and heavenly powers a single gathering for His distribution of divine gifts, with humankind joining joyfully with the powers on high in unanimous praise of God's glory; but also, after fulfilling the divine purpose undertaken on our behalf, when He was taken up with the body which He had assumed, He united heaven and earth in Himself, joined what is sensible with what is intelligible, and revealed creation as a single whole whose extremes are bound together through virtue and through knowledge of their first Cause. He shows, I think, through what He has accomplished mystically, that the Logos unites what is separated and that alienation from the Logos divides what is united. Let us learn, then, to strive after the Logos through the practice of the virtues, so that we may be united not only with the angels through virtue, but also with God in spiritual knowledge through detachment from created things." On the Lord's Prayer; P.P. 287 - 288; St. Maximos the Confessor; Philokalia Volume 2.

So we join with the angels & all of creation glorifying God. It is our great privelege and work to raise creation and bring it to unity in God.

Nikitas Stithatos said:

"48. Once you have united yourself through the higher Wisdom with the angelic powers and have thereby been united with God, through love of Wisdom you enter into communion with all men, since you have achieved God's likeness. Through divine power you sever those so disposed from their attachment to what is external and multiple, and as an imitator of God you concentrate them in spirit, elevating them as you are elevated to a unified life through wisdom, spiritual knowledge and the illumination of divine mysteries, until they come to contemplate the glory of the unique primordial light. When you have united them with the essences and orders that surround God, you induct them - wholly irradiated by the Spirit - to the unity of God Himself." On Spiritual Knowledge; Page 153; Nikitas Stithatos; Philokalia Volume 4.

"14. Exalt the One over the dyad - the single over the dual - and free its nobility from all commerce with dualism, and you will consort immaterially with immaterial spirits; for you will yourself have become a noetic spirit, even though you appear to dwell bodily among other men.
15. Once you have brought bondage to the dyad into subjection to the dignity and nature of the One, you will have subjected the whole of creation to God; for you will have brought into unity what was divided and will have reconciled all things.
16. So long as the nature of the powers within us is in a state of inner discord and is dispersed among many contrary things, we do not participate in God's supranatural gifts. And if we do not participate in these gifts, we are also far from the mystical eucharist of the heavenly sanctuary, celebrated by the intellect through its spiritual activity. When through assiduous ascetic labour we have purged ourselves of the crudity of evil and have reconciled our inner discord through the power of the Spirit, we then participate in the ineffable blessings of God, and worthily concelebrate the divine mysteries of the intellect's mystical eucharist with God the Logos in His supracelestial and spiritual sanctuary; for we have become initiates and priests of His immortal mysteries." On Spiritual Knowledge; P.P. 143 - 144; Nikitas Stithatos; Philokalia Volume 4.

So when you are "outside on a clear night at about 3:30 AM, as well as being deep in a woods one morning, surrounded by thick ferns and bright green moss, flowering shrubs, and a great variety of very large deciduous and conifer trees which give way occasionally to caves and natural bridges", don't look for "the tomato being in the carrot, and the carrot being in the cucumber, and so on as it relates to a compost bin in a vegetable garden."

The oneness to look for is the unity in God:

"100. God is both Monad and Triad; He begins with the Monad and, as Decad, He completes Himself through cyclic movement. Thus He contains within Himself the origins and ends of all things. He is outside everything, since He transcends all things. To be within Him you must embrace the inner essences and possess a spiritual knowledge of created beings. Then while standing outside all things you will dwell within all things and know their origins and ends; for you will have attaind a spiritual union with the Father through the Logos and will have been perfected in the Spirit." On Spiritual Knowledge; P.P. 173 - 174; Nikitas Stithatos; Philokalia Volume 4.

Because as St. Maximos says:

"6. Everything that derives its existence from participation in some other reality, presupposes the ontological priority of that other reality. Thus it is clear that the divine Cause of created beings - is incomparably superior to all such beings in every way, since by nature its existence is prior to theirs and they presuppose its ontological priority. It does not exist as a being with accidents, because if that were the case the divine would be composite, its own existence receiving completion from the existence of created beings. On the contrary, it exists as the beyond-beingness of being. For if artists in their art conceive the shapes of those things which they produce, and if universal nature conceives the forms of the things within it, how much more does God Himself bring into existence out of nothing the very being of all created things, since He is beyond being and even infinitely transcends the attribution of beyond-beingness. For it is He who has yoked the sciences to the arts so that shapes might be devised; it is He who has given to nature the energy which produces its forms, and who has established the very is-ness of beings by virtue of which they exist." Various Texts on Theology, the Divine Economy, and Virtue and Vice; First Century; Page 165; St. Maximos the Confessor; Philokalia Volume 2.

Then the only way to perceive the One is to return to the first cause which is God.

So I hope Through the Holy Spirit you may get the whole picture ... The divine connection ... The oneness ... The divine reality within ... and find the hidden Kingdom! And participate with all creation in the Cosmic Liturgy!