How does one not run out of material?

[Paul Cowan]

Learned Fathers Bless:

I am once again attempting from the beginning of Lent to "do it right". In reality I give myself until tonight to screw it up. ;)

I am reading many books and stories of the ascetics that stood all night in prayer in front of an icon and just prayed. I have a prayer rule I follow daily that lasts between 45 minutes to 1 hour. Usually I make it 15 minutes before my mind starts to wander.

My question is...I would like to emmulate these Holy people, but after my normal hour, what do I say through the Saint's icons or to the Theotokos's icon? Do I just keep researching written material on the web and repeat that until I fall asleep?

My priest has said in the past to say a few words of prayer as I am able, at least The Our Father, and do the St. Ephraim prayer with it's bows and prostrations. I would like to do more, but can see myself quickly running out of prayer material. Monks talk / pray all night. I can't even talk to my wife for 2 solid hours. So, what do I do to lenghthen my prayer rule?

Thank you,
Paul

[Andreas Moran]

Dear Paul,

Don't lengthen - deepen.

In Christ,

Andreas.

[Paul Cowan]

How do you do that? I understand meditating on the words and theme of the prayer, but how do you stay focused and attentive once that has been accomplished? Once I have said my prayers, I feel, well, that's done. what's next? How do I keep the "what's next" in front of me without saying redundant prayers or thoughts all night? Or repeating them over and over during my vigil? Or is that the point?

Thanks

[Mourad Mankarios]

You can pray the prayers of the canonical hours, you can pray the psalms, you can pray the Jesus Prayer, you can meditate on scripture or on the writings of the fathers or any other spiritual work (by meditate I mean to read and use what is read as inspiration for prayer), you can make prostrations, you can sing hymns (liturgical or otherwise), you can even simply sit in silence in your room for the set time, especially if you can't bring yourself to say anything or pray or read.

One thing I can't imagine is that you would run out of material, that's for sure...

With regards to distractions, don't worry, it's only normal and deeper concentration will come with time and greater practise...

God bless you

[John Charmley]

Dear Paul,

I sympathise. What I have been told is not to set too ambitious a target in the first place, as that is almost setting yourself up for failure.

Yes, of course we look at what the Saints do and if we set that as our target, we will surely fail. So I wonder whether a whole hour is not, at the moment, too much to aim for? Might it not be better to set your sights a little lower to start off with?

I wonder whether fifteen minutes deep prayer and meditating on one of the Bible readings might not be a better place to start. My own priest has told me that it is a bit like fasting - try to do it all in an excess of zeal and I set myself up for despair; try to do what I can encompass at first, and build it up once the foundation is laid, and slowly but surely does it. It seemed good advice, and I am following it; rather disappointed at how little I can actually manage at the moment, but, after a week of Great Lent, and looking back, I see I am doing more than I could this time last week.

I hope that might be helpful.

In Christ,

John

[Andreas Moran]

Dear Paul,

You have excellent advice from Mourad and John.

In Christ,

Andreas.

[Paul Cowan]

Thank you gentlemen. I guess it is true, a friend will tell you what you do not want to here. What I wanted to hear was 'here is a list that will keep you busy for hours.'

Lent has just begun and I am already falling to pride and self delusion. What a long 10 weeks this is going to be.

Pray for me,
Paul

[Irene]

On Prayer of the Nous and Heart

Pray, I beg you, according to the instruction of the Apostle Paul: "Pray without ceasing." (1Thes. 5:17) The Watchful Fathers say, "If you are a theologian, you will pray truly, and if you pray truly, you are a theologian." (The Philokalia, vol.I, p.62). Indeed, the Watchful Fathers of the desert teach that through various kinds of ascesis, praxis, contemplation, and the moral and spiritual philosophy of watchfulness and prayer, the nous of man is purified, illumined, and perfected, and subsequently it acquires the gift of theology---not academic theology which the theologians in universities posess, but theology proceeding and gushing forth from the divine spring fom which the rivers of true, divine theology flow forth.
The holy Watchful Fathers say that a nous that has ceased to contemplate God becomes either carnal or savage. But conversely through prayer, and especially through noetic prayer, the nous becomes godlike and is illuminated by divine radiance.
A person's salvation depends on prayer, for this is what unites him with God and brings him near God. When he is near God, it is natural for him not to deviate from the moral road because he pays attention to every step he takes. Nevertheless, in spite of all this attentiveness, the devil never stops stalking us constantly, in order to find us at a moment of weakness and thus drag us onto his road, which always leads sharply downhill. For this reason, my beloved children, it is a must, an indespensible requirement that we alway be armed with the continuous prayer of our sweetest Jesus.

We must not forget that the demons assail and attack prayer in order to render it ineffective by means of evil distractions. Thoughts of every kind encircle the poor man's nous at the time of prayer in order to plunder the fruit of prayer and leave only its bones---that is, the labor and effort---for him who prays.
This is why one who desires to pray well should drive away every sort of care and any thought whatsoever in advance, before beginning to say the prayer. The nous as an overseer should supervise very attentively the words spoken by the mouth, so that prayer becomes a fruitful spring of divine help and grace.
According to the Fathers, Satan will always position himself as a thorn and stumbling block for holy prayer. This is because he is greatly troubled and burned by it. Therefore, my children, compel yourselves in prayer, and also remember me, your wretched Elder, so that the Lord may have mercy on me.


Selected from Counsels from the Holy Mountain
From the Letters and Homilies of Elder Ephraim


From orthodoxhomechurchschool@yahoogroups.com
Feasts and Saints of the Orthodox Church 1 February

[Panos Sakellariou]

Hi Paul

Far be it from me to advise! Here's an experience I went through which may help... Four years ago I was grappling with similar questions. What does it mean to pray? What do I physically say? Why can't keep my mind focused? Why can't I say something remotely as gracefull as the written prayers? I went out and tried to read about praying hoping to find a 'prayer manual'. A step-by-step guide to praying. I came to the conclusion that there is no such step-by-step guide as such. For sure there is a plethora of cannons and praying books (an excellent one is Saint Nectarios' prayer book) in the Orthodox church. Indeed any word, any sentence of the Fathers is a prayer. Just the name of Jesus can fullfil our lives to eternity. What is it then that is preventing me loosing myslef into prayer? I came to the answer that it was the state of my soul that was the problem and not the material. Years of sinful existence had gradually soiled my body and soul as His icon. At the end of the day when you pray you take your soul in your hands and you offer it to God. You can offer only what you have. Could it therefore be that reflecting on your sins and trying to repend every day be the road to the true prayer? Is it living the prayer - that is living - part of the prayer?

I hope I did not sound patrinising and please forgive me for taking up your time.

Panos

Panos

[Katherine]

Yes, a little prayer - that is meaningful - is more important, and beneficial - than much that is done to "fill in the time". It's understandable to desire "to do more", but being a beginner, it's very easy to get discouraged when we cant fulfil these great desires. Besides - we're not monastics. Monastics have had years of patience and practice to reach those hours of prayer ...

[Paul Cowan]

Thank you Panos:

As much as I appreciate and learn from the theologians here on Monachos, I truly need and appreciate some one who speaks on my level. (Not an insult. An appreciation). Yes, as Lent has begun, I have noticed the state of my soul. This is the primary reason for the increased prayer time.

The answer: Quality, not quantity.

In love
Paul

[Herman Blaydoe]

When in doubt, use the prayerbook that Christ our Lord used: the Psalms. Read them like the monastics do; in Kathismas. The Psalms are the whole Bible set to verse. They instruct, inspire, encourage, admonish, and correct. There is an appropriate Psalm for all occasions, for all circumstances; for times of fear, despondency, anger, frustration, dejection, joy, celebration, elation.

Monastics have been praying the Psalms for centuries. There is more information available here:

The Division of the Psalter into Kathismas (http://www.oca.org/MDoutlines-content.asp?ID=63&SID=13)

[Peter Farrington]

Dear Herman

I agree very much because the Psalms are becoming more and more important to me. In the Coptic Orthodox Tradition all of the Psalms are prayed every day by monastics, and are all set out through the Hours, though lay folk like myself usually only pray a few at each Hour, but I am finding myself taking longer and praying more through this Lent as they do express the state of my heart very often, and better than I could myself.

Peter

[Kris]

In the Coptic Orthodox Tradition all of the Psalms are prayed every day by monastics


I've noticed the Agpeya does not include Psalms: 7, 9, 10, 13, 16, 17, 20, 21, 27, 30-32, 34-39, 41, 43, 47-49, 51, 52, 53, 55, 57-59, 61, 63-65, 67, 68, 70-82, 87-89, 91, 93, 94, 101-108, 113, 134, 135, 138, 139, 143, 148-151.

Are these Psalms read separately by monastics since you say "all of the Psalms"?

In XC,
Kris

[Mourad Mankarios]

I've noticed the Agpeya does not include Psalms: 7, 9, 10, 13, 16, 17, 20, 21, 27, 30-32, 34-39, 41, 43, 47-49, 51, 52, 53, 55, 57-59, 61, 63-65, 67, 68, 70-82, 87-89, 91, 93, 94, 101-108, 113, 134, 135, 138, 139, 143, 148-151.

Are these Psalms read separately by monastics since you say "all of the Psalms"?

In XC,
Kris

The Coptic Canon does not include all of the Psalms though about half are included...

[M.C. Steenberg]

The lenten practice in monasteries is that the usual practice of reading through the psalter (all twenty kathismata / 150 psalms) in a week is doubled.

I often find that a dedicated attentiveness to reading one kathisma each day is an excellent practice -- especially during Lent. The compilation of the psalms into these groups makes the twenty roughly (though not exactly) equal lenth; and it's an amount of reading that is practical and feasible for people 'in the world' who want a real daily exercise and discipline in the psalter.

INXC, Matthew

[M.C. Steenberg]

For those who are interested, the psalter with kathisma divisions, is here:

http://www.pomog.org/psalter.shtml

It takes only about 10-15 minutes with a pencil to go through one's own bible and mark out the kathismas and the internal stases divisions ('Glory... both now...').

INXC, Matthew

[Fr Seraphim (Black)]

Dear Paul,

Far back in time, when I was younger, I knocked on the door of Fr. Sophrony's hermitage. My purpose: how to pray, we sat at his kitchen table which became our usual habit, unless he was unwell and then I stood by his bed while he spoke. Just behind me were the majestic ancient icons of our Saviour and His Most Pure Mother. He was so patient with me. How will I find what is needed to repay all that he gave?

His advice was quite unexpected.

All the people who have replied to you have given wonderful advice. Their words are truly from the heart and will surely lead to good.

Fr. Sophrony told me to pray as he prayed. I was astonished. How could I manage this! He said: "Father, when you enter your cell make the sign of the Cross, close your door, and fall (in a full prostration) before the Icons and stay there face to the floor repeating the Prayer until the tears flow."

Now the years have dribbled away. St. Silouan put it all so simply and purely: "The more you pray, the more you pray."

Did not our Lord say: "Knock..."?

Surely the angels will encircle us.

May our Lord bless you and your dear wife on your Lenten pilgrimage and say a prayer for this stranger passing by!

[Paul Cowan]

Dear all:
I thank you from my heart for all the advice and recommendations for prayer. I found this on the Mt. Athos site but cannot seem to find the direct link. Here is the prayer from another link from Fr. Maximos I pray every day as part of my prayer rule for the past 2 years. I think it is one of the best prayers out there.

http://www.jesusportal.org/english/maxim.htm

Thank you Matthew for the Kathismas. I will start marking up my perfectly less than used Bible tonight. :)

I wish I could have known Fr. Sophrony. I feel I do from reading your posts. Fr. Seraphim. I pray each morning God give me the gift of tears. Perhaps I don't know what I am asking for? But I know for my salvation, if I don't overcome my hardened heart and my sins and be Baptised by tears, I will not overcome this world. Pray for me THE sinner.

I must apologize to you all for my arrogance. I was wanting to "really" start praying and do it like the Big Boys. I am just learning how to control my attention span. How can I possibly read the Psalter twice in a week when I can't even say the "Our Father" without straying? What arrogance to think I was anywhere ready for that.

I request you all continue to pray for my wife Leah. She is still having a hard time but has another doctor appt. set for next week. The last visit, the doctor changed one of the variables in her meds so we can start noticing what factors make her body behave the way it does. Light at the end of the loong tunnel?

Thank you again my brothers and sisters in Christ.

Paul

[Theopesta]

No. of Psalms in Coptic Agpia nearly 75 psalm. In monasteries, Some divide the uninvolved psalms all over the week, so on each week.
But monks in solitary life pray all the 150 psalm each day, by dividing them into 7 parts during the whole day.
Monks from Other oriental churches divide the 150. all over the week from Monday till Saturday; on Sunday they read Gospel of John which should be read by all monks each Sunday. It is an enjoyable, lively law, if it only remains apart from practicing routinely.
In One Christ.

[Paul Cowan]

Thank you Theopesta,

Please be safe in Egypt. Prayers for people living and dead are also on my growing prayer list of things to do.

Paul

[Olga]

Welcome back to the forum, Sr Theopesta! It's been a long time since we've heard from you.

[Theopesta]

Many thanks Mr. Paul, I'd appreciate, indeed, your warm welcoming Olga, many thanks. Keep me in your prayers
In One Christ

[Marie-Duquette]

Theopesta,

Many thanks in Christ Jesus for explaining about the praying of the Psalms by "solitaries" and "Monks/Nuns" This has been enlightening for me.
A blessed Lenten-desert sojourn.

Please pray for me a sinner!

marie_duquette

[Andrew]

I think Archimandrite Zacharias' advice in The Enlargement of the Heart is very helpful... go to your icons, stand in stillness, and whisper with conviction, "Lord, Thou knows that I am the least of all men." And prostrate. Pray the Jesus Prayer, and focus on his Holy Name especially. But anyways, I'm not the best person to give advice on these matters. Different people need different things. The Theotokos is always ready and willing to help us in the Prayer; call upon her for help :)

[Nina]

I think Archimandrite Zacharias' advice in The Enlargement of the Heart is very helpful... go to your icons, stand in stillness, and whisper with conviction, "Lord, Thou knows that I am the least of all men." And prostrate. Pray the Jesus Prayer, and focus on his Holy Name especially. But anyways, I'm not the best person to give advice on these matters. Different people need different things. The Theotokos is always ready and willing to help us in the Prayer; call upon her for help :)

Thank you for the advise from Fr. Zacharias! I need to read that book - it is highly recommended also from Mr. Andreas Moran.

I couldn't agree more with you Andrew about the Theotokos! Indeed She is always ready to help us! Elder Joseph the Hesychast also advises to read daily the Salutations to the Virgin Mary. She shows so much love to all of us in ways that we can not even imagine! Love, love, love Panaghia!

[Kusanagi]

Learned Fathers Bless:

I am once again attempting from the beginning of Lent to "do it right". In reality I give myself until tonight to screw it up. ;)

I am reading many books and stories of the ascetics that stood all night in prayer in front of an icon and just prayed. I have a prayer rule I follow daily that lasts between 45 minutes to 1 hour. Usually I make it 15 minutes before my mind starts to wander.

My question is...I would like to emmulate these Holy people, but after my normal hour, what do I say through the Saint's icons or to the Theotokos's icon? Do I just keep researching written material on the web and repeat that until I fall asleep?

My priest has said in the past to say a few words of prayer as I am able, at least The Our Father, and do the St. Ephraim prayer with it's bows and prostrations. I would like to do more, but can see myself quickly running out of prayer material. Monks talk / pray all night. I can't even talk to my wife for 2 solid hours. So, what do I do to lenghthen my prayer rule?

Thank you,
Paul

Those saints don't pray with words anymore when they can last all night.
get guidance and then do Jesus prayer.
or Lord as you will and as you know how have mercy on me!

Also don't forget God doesn't want from us lots of words just our hearts so you shouldn't need to worry about running out of material.

[Nina]

I couldn't agree more with you Andrew about the Theotokos! Indeed She is always ready to help us! Elder Joseph the Hesychast also advises to read daily the Salutations to the Virgin Mary. She shows so much love to all of us in ways that we can not even imagine!

There is another story from our Saint Kosmas Aetolos (book "The Teachings of St. Kosmas" translated by Vaporis) regarding Panagia's protection to those who revere Her:

"A man named John was defeated and he became a thief. He became the captain of a band of one hundred thieves, but he had great reverence for the Theotokos. Each morning and evening he read the service of Supplication to the Theotokos.

Wishing to save him because of the great reverence he had for the Theotokos, the gracious God sent a holy monk who was immediately captured by the thieves. The monk said to them: "I beg you to take me to your captain because I have something to tell you for your own good."

They took him to the captain and he said: "Ask all the men to come so that I can tell you something."The captain called them and they came. The monk said: "Aren't there any more?"

"I have a cook," the captain replied.

"Ask him to come." But when he came, the cook was unable to look at the monk and turned his face aside. The monk then said to the cook: "In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ I command you to tell me who you are, who sent you, and what you are doing here."

The cook replied and said: "I'm a liar and I always speak falsely. But since you have bound me with the name of Christ, I can't but tell you the truth. I'm the devil and I was sent by my superior to work for the captain and to wait for the day when he wouldn't read the service of Supplication to the Theotokos to put him into hell. I have been watching him now for fourteen years and I have never found a day when he hasn't read the service."

The monk said: "I command you in the name of the Holy Trinity to disappear and no longer tempt Christians." And immediately the devil disappeared like smoke.

The monk then taught the thieves. Some became monks, others married and did good works and were saved. This is why I advise you all, men and women, to learn the service of Supplication and to use it in your prayers. And if you wish, take the book, The Salvation of Sinners, which contains the seventy miracles of the Theotokos, of which I told you one so that you might understand."

[Andreas Moran]

I once asked Bishop Eireniaos which he peferred - the Supplicatory Canon to the Theotokos or the Akathist. He said, the Akathist. Why, I asked? Better to praise her than ask her for anything, he said.

[Nina]

:) John the thief in the story from St. Kosmas maybe was led from God to read that. And the story reveals that it was good for him since God and Panagia helped him.

Both services are invaluable. Although I agree with Bishop Eirenaios, because I am at a point in my life when I do not know what to ask God for. I rather prefer to have Him give me what He wills. This does not mean that I do not enjoy the Supplicatory Canon. I do not think to read it for some gain, I just approach it as a prayer - rather than asking something from the Virgin Mary because I know that They know better than I. Maybe that is the hint of the beautiful and true saying of the Bishop.

[Kira]

Paul,

The Jesus Prayer (Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner) might be what you are looking for, as described in Filokalia. However, I have found that many people will have their heads spin after reading Filokalia so I suggest 2 other books.

The absolutely BEST description on how to pray constantly is found in an entertaining little Russian Orthodox classic The Way of a Pilgrim. See
http://www.hermitary.com/articles/pilgrim.html. It is a thin little book about a guy who sets out on the road to find out how to pray unceasingly and meets many characters who give him advise. This guy had EXACTLY the same questions as you did - how to pray unceasingly when you have to accomplish other things, and what does it MEAN to pray unceasingly in practical terms.

Another book is 'The Jesus Prayer' by Valaam Monastery Press in Finland. This book has been translated into English and I have been told many church bookstores sell it. It consists of selections from letters to monks and laymen from igumens and answers to their questions.

I personally use the standard morning and evening prayers (max 20 min each), just to have a regular practice, and pray the Jesus prayer otherwise. You start by saying it aloud or in your mind, and after a while, it becomes automatic. You can use a prayer rope or not use one (I do not). You can coordinate the prayer with your breath (I don't). You can shorten the prayer,too, to 'Jesus Christ, have mercy on me' or something like that, if you find it too long......Over time, the Jesus prayer becomes just a feeling of constantly standing before God, from morning till night. You don't need any positions or to stand in front of the icons. You simply pray whereever you are, whateever you are doing (Very similar to 'walking meditation' in Tibetan Buddhism). You can pray when you are with friends or working, or doing anything else. How long this will take to achieve, is hard to say, it may be weeks or years. I have found and both books testify that the effect of constantly praying the Jesus prayer is that you become more aware of your habitual sins, especially thought sins, and you become more loving towards other people, and that you start seeing God's greatness in nature. It is as if you would get glimpses of how God sees people and His creation. It is truly a wonderful feeling. The word that describes this state is 'lovingkindness', I think. Of course, feelings fluctuate and you go through many dead periods in your prayer life, too, and these are frustrating, to be sure. But once you get the 'spiritual fire' started, it will never truly go out.....it will come back, eventually.

But don't go overboard count the prayers too scrupulously. The point is not the numbers of length of prayers. The purpose is inner transformation.

Good luck with the Jesus prayer! It is truly a great treasure. It is childlike in its simplicity, but you need nothing else.

[Paul Cowan]

Good luck with the Jesus prayer! It is truly a great treasure. It is childlike in its simplicity, but you need nothing else.


Thank you Kira,


This fits me to a T.

Paul

[Kira]

Paul,

Your experience with Lent is typical. Typically, one starts with lots of enthusiasm and then has an even bigger fall. My first Lent I thought I was going crazy and felt like a total failure. When I went to my Father-Confessor in total desperation he smiled and said that the evil spirits are extremely active during Lent and the harder you try to conquer your sinful nature, the harder they try to tempt you. If you don't get tempted by the flesh you get tempted by the spirit and vice versa. I had the same experience at a monastery as well. And again, my Father-Confessor smiled like a Zen master and told me 'yes, this is to be expected'. (Could have told me beforehand!).

I tell myself that maybe this is intended so that you would stay humble and not get too puffed up......

I was recently at a monastery and spoke with some seminarians. They told me that Lent was the worst time at the seminary. After the Forgiveness Sunday, the rest of the Lent was spent quarreling with others, getting angry about trivialities, getting drunk etc. Some priests told me this was the time people in the congregation have the worst fights with each other.

There are probably two explanations to this, one physical and one spiritual. People are simply hungry during Lent and hungry people are crabby (or since they are eating very little protein their blood sugar levels fluctuate). The other reason is spiritual. The devil hates to see people to strive to get closer to God and wants to do everything to stop that.

It's a little bit like dieting. You fail, you beat yourself up a little bit and then get back on track. Go to Confession, afterwards you'll feel a lot better. Just get back on track and remember the hopeful message in the Easter liturgy (even if you only fasted at the eleventh hour, you are welcome, or even if you did not fast at all....or something like that).

[Andreas Moran]

I was taught that one needed a blessing to take up use of the Jesus Prayer. My wife does not use it because her spiritual father has not blessed her to do so.

[Paul Cowan]

I was taught that one needed a blessing to take up use of the Jesus Prayer. My wife does not use it because her spiritual father has not blessed her to do so.

I have heard this from several people as well. My question is if it is so dangerous to the person, why is it so readily known for folks to use? To sit alone quietly, head bowed and concentrate on the words of the prayer focusing on the heart (as talked about in the organ donation thread), what is dangerous here?

Or just to say the words of the prayer repeatedly to keep your mind focused on Christ so it does not wander, again, what is wrong with this? The Way of the Pilgrim is a book for beginners in Orthodoxy. Yet he talks of nothing else but the prayer.

But then again, I am down here and they are up here (imagine one hand low and one hand high) giving council to things I am digging up on my own research. What do I know. I do the best I can with what I've got and let God handle my train wrecks.

Paul

[Michael Stickles]

I was taught that one needed a blessing to take up use of the Jesus Prayer.

I've seen slightly different opinions on this from various priests and others across the 'Net. While I didn't do a statistical survey, the majority view does seem to be that for any prayer rule (not just the Jesus Prayer), the advice, blessing and guidance of the spiritual father is needed. The one thing that seemed to be unanimous is that the associated physical exercises (breathing, etc.) should never be attempted without strict guidance by one's spiritual father.

As far as "what is dangerous here?", Elder Paisios the Athonite had a good summary of that:



Some (unfortunately) do not set the goal of putting off the old man (repentance, humility, and asceticism as a way of helping the sanctification of the soul) with a deep sense of their sinfulness. Then, they would naturally feel the need for God’s mercy, saying "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me," often. This with pain in their heart and then the feeling of the sweetness of divine comfort of the most Sweet Christ within their heart.

But unfortunately some people (as I mentioned) start off with a dry ascetic practice and seek after divine pleasure and lights and continually multiply their prayer-ropes and are sanctified by their calculation, reaching that conclusion (about their sanctity) from the mathematical reckoning of the greater amount of prayer-ropes they say.

They also (naturally) make footstools to the exact inch and all the other things, the bending of the head towards the heart. They regulate their breath and whatever else the watchful Saint Kallistuses and Gregorys of the Philokalia say. Then they create the false sensation that they are somewhere near the measure of those Saints.

From the moment they believe that thought, the tangalaki (the demon) immediately appears and sets up a television for them (with their fantasies) and devilish prophecies etc. of delusion follow.



In Christ,
Mike

[Paul Cowan]

Mike,

Thank you for the quote.

Some (unfortunately) do not set the goal of putting off the old man (repentance, humility, and asceticism as a way of helping the sanctification of the soul) with a deep sense of their sinfulness. Then, they would naturally feel the need for God’s mercy, saying "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me," often. This with pain in their heart and then the feeling of the sweetness of divine comfort of the most Sweet Christ within their heart.


This is the position I was taking when I asked what is the danger. I had not considered people would say the prayer with its movemnets in a way to create a false sensation or seek divine pleasures or lights . Are they nuts?

I suppose I am just too naive when it comes to people's hidden desires.
Lord Jesus Christ Son of God have mercy on me THE sinner.

Paul

[Kira]

The dangers seem to be mostly with the physical exercises (sitting with the head bowed and the breathing exercises) as described in Philokalia.

I have seen people go overboard when they prescribed themselves thousands of Jesus Prayers a day and lose touch with reality.

But it is my understanding from what I have heard and read that there is no harm in the Jesus Prayer in general. I view it as a way to 'check in' with God during the day. Kind of like walking in his Presence all the time. It's like Catholics praying their rosaries or Jews being in God's presence. It's just a way to remember God throughout the day. The important thing is to keep some kind of sanity in this.

I think people make too much out of this as if being close to God somehow was not a natural way to be. it should be the most natural of things, like a child feeling a warm feeling when he sees his father or mother and crying out to them 'Mom!' or 'Dad!' just to have them smile back at them. Think of it as something like that.

of course, you can always check with your priest....why not ask him what he thinks?

[Michael Stickles]

I had not considered people would say the prayer with its movemnets in a way to create a false sensation or seek divine pleasures or lights. Are they nuts?

Well, I think some probably are. Others, though, may start off with the right mindset (or something close to it), but through small, almost imperceptible steps, wander away from it to the mindset Elder Paisios warns about.

I know that I have to watch myself in this regard. Here's one progression I've seen in myself before:

- I need God's mercy
- I need God
- I want God
- I want to be with God
- I want to be in God's presence
- I want to feel God's presence

I started in a place where I was totally dependent on Him, and ended in a place where I felt lost and abandoned if I couldn't feel any "sensations". In that state, it's easy to feel like "I'm not doing it right" and start focusing on the technique rather than on God Himself. And then, after focusing on technique, if you do start feeling "sensations", you can feel like "I got it right!", that you've achieved the state of being in His presence, and pride and self-delusion follow.

In Christ,
Mike

[Andreas Moran]

I wonder if one of the problems today is that everything is well known. But that doesn't make everything appropriate for everyone. For example, it was suggested to someone to put into practice something Elder Porphyrios says in 'Wounded by Love'. When I mentioned this to one of the Lavra fathers, he said, 'that's too advanced for a layman' - I didn't realise why until he explained. I have felt sometimes that if I'm not doing all there is to do, I'm somehow in danger of 'missing out'. Each of us, as we all know, needs to guided by their spiritual father.

[Herman Blaydoe]

Spiritual exercise is not that different in certain ways than physical exercise. If you never physically exercise you become unfit, your muscles atrophy, you become less resistant to illness and you can develop longterm physical ailments, such as heart disease, bone loss and depression. Too little exercise and you never get there. But there is danger of overdoing it as well. Too much can harm you. You can get discouraged and stop trying, or even physical problems develop if you are trying to lift more weight than your body can handle, or push too hard before it is ready. You don't start lifting free-weights at 400 lbs, nor running a marathon on the first day, you have to build up to it. An experienced coach can help you set the right amount of exercise to achieve the results desired, be it simply living a healthier lifestyle or winning the Boston Marathon.

Simiarly, if you never spiritually exercise you can become spiritually unfit, you become less resistant to sin and you can develop longterm spiritual ailments and depression. Too little exercise and you never get there. But there is danger of overdoing it as well. Too much can harm you. You can get discouraged and stop trying, or even physical problems develop if you are trying to do more than your body can handle, or push too hard before it is ready. You don't start praying the hours, nor fasting for an entire Lent on the first day, you have to build up to it. An experienced spiritual father can help you set the right amount of exercise to achieve the results desired, be it simply living a Godlier lifestyle or taking on the Great Schema.

There are healthy lifestyles and there are unhealthy lifestyles. It includes the food you eat, the activities you take part in, the people you associate with. It takes time to change from an unhealthy life to a healthy one, trying to do everything all at once might be more challenging for some than for others. In most cases, it seems the better advice is to build up to it--adding on as you go, at a rate best arrived at with the advice of an experienced counselor.

Not everyone runs the Boston Marathon, but none of us should be couch potatoes. Not everyone attains the Great Schema, but none of us should be pew potatoes!

[Father David Moser]

But it is my understanding from what I have heard and read that there is no harm in the Jesus Prayer in general.

From the life of the Elder Ambrose of Optina by Fr Sergius Chetverikov:

[The Elder] Ambrose [of Optina] advised many people, in letters and in person not to abandon the short prayer of Jesus: "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me a sinner".

[The Elder also said,] "Always say the prayer of Jesus with the lips for it is not profitable to say it with the mind - you can be damaged." "At least whisper the prayer of Jesus. Many have been harmed by mental prayer"

Fr Ambrose seems to make a clear distinction between the "ordinary" use of the Jesus prayer and the use of the prayer as a discipline of mental prayer. Certainly the use of the Jesus prayer as a normal part of our prayer life is profitable and helpful. However, to undertake the discipline of mental prayer as a spiritual exercise requires the guidance of an experienced elder.

Fr David Moser

[Andreas Moran]

Fr Ambrose seems to make a clear distinction between the "ordinary" use of the Jesus prayer and the use of the prayer as a discipline of mental prayer. Certainly the use of the Jesus prayer as a normal part of our prayer life is profitable and helpful. However, to undertake the discipline of mental prayer as a spiritual exercise requires the guidance of an experienced elder.

Fr David Moser


If I may say so, Fr David here points up an important distinction.

[Rami Ghanem]

Dear Paul

i suggest to do what your priest ask you to do because Adam fall, when he decide not to listen what God tell him to do or ask him not to do?
longest prayer is the "lord Jesus Christ forgive me i am the sinner

[Paul Cowan]

Thank you Rami and welcome to the forum. I have memorized this prayer and say it constantly.

[James Aubuchon]

I think it is important to realize that in the parable where the Pharisee is talking to God, saying how righteous he is, and the other guy simply beats his breast and says "God be merciful to me, a sinner" (the basis for the Jesus prayer), that he only said the prayer once. It was the attitude of the heart, and not the quantity of the prayer that really mattered.

Once Father Seraphim suggested that I pray the Jesus Prayer 12 times per day. (He is not my spiritual father, so I was not under obedience). I found that I could not pray the prayer 12 times per day. I could pray the prayer 300 times per day, but not 12. My arrogance would not allow me to pray so little. I had to ask Father Seraphim to release me from only praying the prayer 12 times per day (of course I was under no obedience because he is not my spiritual father).

There is the old saying "Little is much when God is in it."

As non-monastics, we read about monks and their great accomplishments, and we want to be like them. But we can't. We can't play major league ball, but then maybe we don't have to. We just need to "do justice, love mercy, and walk humbly with our God" with some sort of reasonable prayer life and a reasonable asceticism.

"But to this man will I look, even to him that is poor, and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word."

Pray for me, a sinner.

Jim

[Paul Cowan]

There is the old saying "Little is much when God is in it."


Thanks Jim,

This means alot to me.

Paul

[Kypreos]

Telling someone not to pray the Jesus prayer because it is dangerous as it may lead to delusion, is like telling a cancer patient not to undergo chemotherapy because you may vomit afterwards.

You need to chemo to battle cancer, and you need the Jesus prayer to battle sin.

St. Basil said "Although I have never touched a woman, I am no virgin." The war between good and evil takes place in our mind. There is nothing wrong with saying the prayer mentally.

The Jesus prayer is good. Say it, think it, breath it, live it.

To say we should approach this prayer with caution because it may lead us astray, well I think that applies to everything. The Jesus Prayer is not inherently more dangerous than anything else in our spiritual lives. We should approach Holy Communion with care, for frequent Communion may give us the false impression that we are worthy of It. Does that mean we should not Commune frequently? No.

So to answer the original thread question, "how do I not run out of material?" - the answer is quite simple: Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me. After you read your material, just focus on the Jesus prayer.

[Nina]

Jesus Prayer is one of the best medicines and more important than the air we breath (that's why it is called often the Prayer). However it is worthy to underline also what Father David posted above and also from Elder Ambrose:



[The Elder] Ambrose [of Optina] advised many people, in letters and in person not to abandon the short prayer of Jesus: "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me a sinner".

[The Elder also said,] "Always say the prayer of Jesus with the lips for it is not profitable to say it with the mind - you can be damaged." "At least whisper the prayer of Jesus. Many have been harmed by mental prayer"I say this because I also did not know many things about it until I read the book "A night in the dessert of the Holy Mountain (http://pelagia.org/htm/b01.en.a_night_in_the_desert_of_the_holy_mountain. 00.htm)" by Metropolitan Hierotheos of Nafpaktos. And the Geronda that the Metropolitan interviews also emphasizes that for advanced stages of the Prayer (Jesus Prayer) need the guidance of a spiritual father for avoiding delusion. He illustrates it and the case I am recalling is that a monk felt a pain in the heart while practicing the prayer. He went to his Geronda (spiritual father) immediately and told him. His Geronda who was an experienced one in such matters asked him about the position of the pain in the heart. The monk answered that it was in the lower part. His Geronda said that he should stop saying the Prayer immediately for a week (and I am not clear what he was supposed to do during such time but maybe fast etc). Because that part of the heart where the monk felt the pain was the part where the demon had influence and could tempt him and bring him to delusion.

I am so very inexperienced in such things and I can not comprehend fully what is being told about the Prayer. But one thing I understand very well about the Prayer. That we can say it with voice, or whisper it as Elder Ambrose advices. But for advanced stages we need an experienced spiritual guide.

[Paul Cowan]

After being a little too anxious to start the Prayer a few years ago, I was surprised how sore my tongue and upper throat were at the end of the day. But after tempering my enthusiasm with guidance I was able to say it much longer and with more 'heart".

Paul

[Nina]

After being a little too anxious to start the Prayer a few years ago, I was surprised how sore my tongue and upper throat were at the end of the day. But after tempering my enthusiasm with guidance I was able to say it much longer and with more 'heart".

Paul

You put to shame my lame and sporadic attempts at the Prayer.

[Paul Cowan]

You put to shame my lame and sporadic attempts at the Prayer.

Don't go there Nina,

Yes I still say the prayer but it is far from perfect.

[Kypreos]

I say this because I also did not know many things about it until I read the book "A night in the dessert of the Holy Mountain (http://pelagia.org/htm/b01.en.a_night_in_the_desert_of_the_holy_mountain. 00.htm)" by Metropolitan Hierotheos of Nafpaktos. And the Geronda that the Metropolitan interviews also emphasizes that for advanced stages of the Prayer (Jesus Prayer) need the guidance of a spiritual father for avoiding delusion. He illustrates it and the case I am recalling is that a monk felt a pain in the heart while practicing the prayer. He went to his Geronda (spiritual father) immediately and told him. His Geronda who was an experienced one in such matters asked him about the position of the pain in the heart. The monk answered that it was in the lower part. His Geronda said that he should stop saying the Prayer immediately for a week (and I am not clear what he was supposed to do during such time but maybe fast etc). Because that part of the heart where the monk felt the pain was the part where the demon had influence and could tempt him and bring him to delusion.

The book "A Night in the Desert of the Holy Mountain" is testament to the Jesus prayer and its saving grace, "When one is praying the 'Jesus Prayer', the Holy Spirit descends like the cloud on Mount Tabor" (16). If I could copy and paste the entire book in this post I would.

We need an experienced guide for all aspects of our lives. I dont understand what you mean when you say "advanced stages". If you mean fulfilling St. Pauls commandment to "pray without ceasing", noetic prayer, then we are already in delusion if we think we can attain that while living in the world.

If you are talking about the various steps of the Jesus prayer (this text briefly mentions 5 I believe), my answer is who cares. You cannot break prayer down into stages or steps. We cannot scientifically define prayer in that way. Sure a grace filled elder can do that, but what can't they do. We shouldn't think about it in those ways. We can't say to ourselves "okay now, my nous has entered my heart. I am approaching stage three, I should seek professional help." (Nina, I am not at all implying that is what you meant. I am just exaggerating to prove my point).

The only thing the devil does is put thoughts into our minds. If my mind is focused on the Jesus Prayer, then I will not accept those thoughts. Its like a wall that blocks sinful thoughts. Father David, do you disagree?

To say I have a million vile and filthy sinful thoughts a day is no understatement. To say that I should use caution when I pray mentally is a bit harsh, at least in my case.

[Nina]

Don't go there Nina,

Yes I still say the prayer but it is far from perfect.

Where should not I go?

I did not say it is perfect, your prayer. I meant that: to say it until your tongue was sore is something spiritually fabulous and compared to mine since I was saying it maybe 1 time per day. If we are going up some hundreds stairs like in Mayan temples let say and you were ahead of me I would have said it to you because it is a fact.

[Nina]

If you are talking about the various steps of the Jesus prayer (this text briefly mentions 5 I believe), my answer is who cares. You cannot break prayer down into stages or steps. We cannot scientifically define prayer in that way. Sure a grace filled elder can do that, but what can't they do. We shouldn't think about it in those ways. We can't say to ourselves "okay now, my nous has entered my heart. I am approaching stage three, I should seek professional help."

:) Actually I should seek prof. help since I can not even say it correctly and I am still in the beginner stage. Correctly the accent in English that is.

Seriously now. Please do not think those are my ideas. That's what I have read and that is in general the Patristic thought about it (you can see also Fr. David, Andreas etc. say the same because that's what they read). If it was up to my opinion (which no one should be, or is interested in my opinion anyway) I would say that I have no personal opinion on the subject because I know nothing about the Prayer, since I am no expert and not even a beginner. Fathers say that we can whisper or say it with voice in the situation I am and that is enough for me. Now I have to go and remind myself to say it.

[Paul Cowan]

It's a figure of speech sheeesh.

If I might tell of my unguided beginnings of the Prayer so others do NOT follow me.

I found myself in a position that I needed to get out of. We have all been there. Sin.

I got a prayer rope and found and read The Way of Pilgrim. I was intrigued with the Jesus Prayer thinking I could do that and possibly attain spiritual heights and prevent my sin without a staretz.

I usually spend an hour or more in rush hour traffic twice a day every day. I found I could say the Prayer 500 times in an hour or once every 6 seconds. This was great I could exceed 3000 times easily during the day mostly while sitting in traffic. I could se myself building up to 6000 within the week. My mind was totally focused on saying the words. But that was it. There was little heart to it and my tongue was killing me. I was saying it as fast as I could.

I then started saying the prayer out loud. Yes, your tongue can still hurt just moving within your mouth. Now I was not able to say the prayer as much as it really hurt my tounge and throat. What should I do? I had to back off the Prayer. I also talked to my priest.

I took his advice and found I could be IN the prayer and totally focused on the words and have them envelope me, if you will. I also could not do this being distracted. Alot of time had passed from the first until now. I was still learning the "how" of it. After time passed, I was able to block out all distractions and just say and think on the Prayer to the point of distraction actually. I found I was not really hearing people talking to me though I was looking right at them. I even passed my exit for home a couple of times being so caught up in it.

I find myself now singing the Prayer to chant music. I am not paying as much attention to it as I should but it does keep my brain from wandering to bad places and helps my peace. I have gone to bed with it and woken up saying it.

Am I doing it right? Probably not. Is it beneficial to me. Yes. Do I have alot to learn, Absolutely. Would I recommend it to others?Wholeheartedly as long as you have guidance FIRST.

As my parents used to say...Do as I say not as I do.

Paul


Where should not I go?

I did not say it is perfect, your prayer. I meant that: to say it until your tongue was sore is something spiritually fabulous and compared to mine since I was saying it maybe 1 time per day. If we are going up some hundreds stairs like in Mayan temples let say and you were ahead of me I would have said it to you because it is a fact.

[Nina]

It's a figure of speech sheeesh.
Paul

Thanks for explaining! :) I am so happy to be today in DC because I will be seeing the Statue of Liberty here!!! Yay!

P.S Thanks for all the Is and the lessons. ;)

PPS No really thank you and seriously! You are right I got to read the Way of a Pilgrim. This is my only serious line.

[Paul Cowan]

Nina,

If you are seeing the Statue of Liberty in DC, DON'T buy the bridge too. I have one in Arizona I can sell you intead.

I thought the Statue was in NY

Paul

[Aaron Taylor]

When in doubt, use the prayerbook that Christ our Lord used: the Psalms. Read them like the monastics do; in Kathismas. The Psalms are the whole Bible set to verse. They instruct, inspire, encourage, admonish, and correct. There is an appropriate Psalm for all occasions, for all circumstances; for times of fear, despondency, anger, frustration, dejection, joy, celebration, elation.

Monastics have been praying the Psalms for centuries. There is more information available here:

The Division of the Psalter into Kathismas (http://www.oca.org/MDoutlines-content.asp?ID=63&SID=13)

I came across this old thread, and the discussion of 'praying the Psalms' raises a question for me. Does anyone know of a book by one of the Fathers or elders that addresses in detail the use of the Psalter in private prayer and/or the divine services? That is, not so much the division of the Psalter or how to organise the reading, but the sort of spiritual activity that this constitutes. In addition to the Psalms that are 'assigned' to various services, I've been reading the whole Psalter through on a monthly basis, and I'd like to find material that addresses the sort of mindset that one must have when reading Psalms like 21, where much of the words are clearly those of Our Lord, or 77, where it is not so much a prayer as a summary of Israel's history. I received a fully satisfactory answer to this from my spiritual father, and I've also found a wonderful answer to the problem (which does not differ from my spiritual father's) in a Roman Catholic study of the Rule of St Benedict, but I'd like to find more Orthodox writings that address this.

[Herman Blaydoe]

I have found the Letter of St. Athanasius to Marcellinus (http://www.athanasius.com/psalms/aletterm.htm) to be an excellent starting point.

[Moses Anthony]

If I am wrong here Fr.'s please tell me! There have been times in praying the Jesus Prayer that for one reason or another (inner conviction?), I deviate from the traditional wording.

a.) "...me the sinner." - say my full given name; confess a sin under conviction for

b.) "...have mercy upon me...." and by that mercy grant me to commune with you in unceasing prayer in the quietness of my heart

c.) "Lord...." - am I really obedient? Do I really love Him above all others?

And so my recitation of the Jesus prayer often goes. Wrong, right indifferent, unusual. It's hard enough to really pray, let alone attempting special techniques.

the sinful and unworthy servant

[Andreas Moran]

I'm not sure that saying one's name is necessary - God knows each of us. But on varying the wording in the Jesus Prayer, Elder Sophrony says this:

Our fathers exhort us to pray the Name of Jesus, not altering the formula very often. But, on the other hand, this is imperative in order to renew our attention, reinforce our prayer even, when the mind moves into theological contemplation or the heart expands to embrace the whole world. Thus by the Name of Christ Jesus it is possible to cover every inside and outside event. Thus this wondrous prayer becomes all-embracing, universal.


On Prayer, p.175

[Nina]

We should constantly and unceasingly repeat the Jesus prayer. Only the name of Christ must remain inside our heart and mind; when we neglect our prayer, that is our communication with God, then the devil finds the chance to confuse us with negative thoughts. Thus, we end up not knowing what we want, do or say.

Selected from Elder Paisios of the Holy Mountain from the Conversations and Homilies of Elder Paisios