Help an Orthodox with a Protestant mind

[Helen]

Sometimes I feel like an orthodox with a protestant mind. I grew up Orthodox and believe it to be the true church, but I don't understand many things.
*Symbolism (how does it help me),
*icons (why are they so stressed as important),
*preying to Mary (why not prey to God, Would Mary help you if God would not?),
*Fasting (If you don't fast on a certain day without medical reason you are sinning).

Please don't misunderstand to think that i am going against the Orthodox church, as i do practice these things as best i can without understanding it all, hoping that i will some day.
I Can't get rid of the thought that many of these traditions and rules are like when the jews made rules like the hand washing rule in the bible. Who made the many specific rules about fasting in the orthodox church. for example, in the orthodox church how do we know that they were a command from God and that were not falling into the same trap as the jews and their laws.

are we to view these rules in the same way as we view a rule that a spiritual father would give you. As if the cannons and fasting rules were some jiant spiritual father for all Christians?

And my most important question of all....Is there anyone out there who use to relate to what i am saying, but has gone past this point to understanding the orthodox church?

Thanks

[Kris]

*Symbolism (how does it help me),


Symbols are ways of directing ones attention to a deeper reality than that immediately apparent. Surely this is beneficial to your spiritual life?



*icons (why are they so stressed as important),


Icons serve many different purposes. The depiction of Christ, for example, is for us a way of affirming the fact that God assumed a true (and therefore depictable) humanity.

Icons are often called "windows to heaven" because they are designed to convey to the beholder the Kingdom of Heaven. They are also a form of instruction: in theology, in Bibilical history, hagiography, etc.



*preying to Mary (why not prey to God, Would Mary help you if God would not?),


One does not pray to the Blessed Virgin or the Saints in the same way one prays to the One and only God: the Holy Trinity. Rather we ask for their intercession, to pray to God on our behalf.

As the Church of Christ we are one Body. We cannot be true Christians while isolating ourselves from our brothers and sisters in Christ. We are only truly Christians when we are in communion with others.

For this reason we are expected to bear eachother's burdens, to pray for eachother, etc. And so we ask also those members of Christ's Body who are in paradise (the Saints) to pray for us - just as we ask our friends and family to pray for us.

Asking for the intercession of the Saints does not replace the prayer we direct to God, but enforces it by bringing us closer to those close to Him.



*Fasting (If you don't fast on a certain day without medical reason you are sinning).


It is not right to say a person who does not fast on such and such a day is sinning. How one fasts is something dependant on that particular individual and what has been recommended by their spiritual father.

Fasting is not something we do to gain God's favour, but a tool given to us to help us overcome our passions and draw closer to His grace through prayer and humility.

Empty fasting, done without understanding, without faith, without humility, without prayer, without almsgiving, is pointless. A person who fasts in this manner is no different from the demons, who never eat nor pray.
But true fasting is of great spiritual benefit to all who dilligently seek to draw closer to God.



I Can't get rid of the thought that many of these traditions and rules are like when the jews made rules like the hand washing rule in the bible. Who made the many specific rules about fasting in the orthodox church. for example, in the orthodox church how do we know that they were a command from God and that were not falling into the same trap as the jews and their laws.


The Jews were criticised for their legalistic and outward adherance to the letter of the law, whilst ignoring completely its spirit.

If we approach the canons of the Church in the same way, we will be no better than the Pharisees.



And my most important question of all....Is there anyone out there who use to relate to what i am saying, but has gone past this point to understanding the orthodox church?


I doubt you'll find many who haven't asked themselves these questions. At least among those of us who were previously outside the Church.

In XC,
Kris

[Sunny]

Dear Helen,

I was protestant for 30 years before becoming Orthodox 3 years ago, and so I understand some protestant issues when converting to Orthodoxy. One of the big ones was changing from a legalistic mindset where I thought I must obey everything I thought was being asked of me or be condemned. The more Orthodox material I read, the more I saw Orthodox practice as healthy and healing for my soul. I initially struggled with the veneration of icons and with prayer to the Theotokos. It was confusing to me and didn't make sense.

What I decided to do was take little steps under the care and guidance of my parish priest who is my spiritual father. I attended all the classes I could on Orthodoxy that he offered, where many of my questions were answered. I then decided that I would immerse myself in practice-for example I would venerate the icons and so on and ask the Lord to grant me understanding. I would always ask for His help, and the help of my guardian angel, and other saints that I felt close to. I began to ask the Mother of God to help me and pray for me. As I practiced these things with an open heart to God I began to feel the peace of God in my heart and indeed began to receive life from them.

So...I read, I prayed, I immersed myself in the church services, I asked questions and I am now just beginning to understand a few things and receive life and peace and deep joy.
Sometimes the enemy of our souls puts these questionings in our minds to try to make our hearts grow cold toward the church. I would humbly suggest you speak to your priest or spiritual father.

Another thought I had when I began practicing Orthodoxy-even though I didn't have a "sense" that these things were what I should do, I did them because, how will it hurt us? To bow, to prostrate ourselves, to humble our hearts before the Lord and His blessed Mother? These are good things. So I practice what I can and leave it to God to grow me up in my understanding.

I hope this helps a little.
Sunny

[Ruth Hrebinka]

Dear Helen,

My heart goes out to you. I see in your questions the same questions my 16 year old daughter asks. We converted to Orthodoxy (she and I) when she was 3 years old, but now she has to accept this faith as her own.

I am a convert from a Protestant religion, Christian Science ( which actually is a fringe religion of Protestantism). I converted to Orthodoxy for intellectual reasons..I was studying Bible History and found the historical Church. I married a cradle Orthodox, who was very pious. His father was Russian, and a priest, but wanted his children to be Orthodox, not Russian. I am so grateful I found my husband. I had problems with all the things you mentioned, but as the years have gone by, and I have prayed about them, they have been resolved.

As a former Protestant who had nothing in Church, I am so grateful for the icons, the incense, the frescos, the candles etc. I, as a fallen human being, need those things to bring me closer to God. I am constantly learning to pray to Saints.. (I ask my mother to pray for me, so why shouldn't I ask St. Seraphim to do so too? He is closer to God!!)
For many years I prayed that I would feel Orthodoxy emotionally. I knew I had accepted it intellectually but I didn't have the emotional ties that my husband had, being cradle Orthodox. I applied to the Orthodox Pastoral College in Chicago Ill. because I wanted to raise my children with a true faith, and be able to answer their questions (not because I want to be a priest!! :) ). I was afraid that the courses of study would make me more intellectually orthodox and less emotionally. The opposite has happened, Glory be to God. The more I delve into the Church fathers the more I realize that the love, the emotion for God and Church is there. I am so grateful I took these courses online! I can answer my children's questions, I feel God's presence more clearly and when we sing the Creed, I know what the Fathers went through to give me this Creed. I greet all the Saints in Church, I know now that the Church militant and the Heavenly Church are one....I feel a part of the family, past, present and future.

Remember Helen, Orthodoxy is a journey. One needs to study, pray, partake of the Sacraments....Orthodoxy is not a religion. It is LIFE. Be patient with yourself, take small steps, pray for one thing in particular and don't stop..I prayed for 3 years for anger against someone to be dissolved, and then I didn't even realize when it did!!! God doesn't know time. And remember, we aren't perfect. God wants our attempts.

You have a wonderful gift...the Church. Stay faithful, learning (and falling and getting up!) and you will do fine.

I will pray for you.

In Christ's love,
Ruth

[Andreas Moran]

Dear Kris,

Forgive me but I cannot agree that not fasting when we should is not sinning - the saints (including St Seraphim and St Afanassi) say it is. Please see my posts on the Thread 'Breaking the fast for love' under 'Ascesis and Praxis.

Forgive me,

Andreas.

[Peter Farrington]

Dear Andreas

There are many other equally venerable saints who disagree.

This is why we should seek the advice our own spiritual fathers.

For myself, if my non-Orthodox wife has had a difficult day and in the evening when I come home has prepared a meal with fish perhaps, it would show no true love to her to refuse to eat what she had lovingly prepared. That is not the time to instruct her in Orthodox fasting rules.

You are fortunate to be married to an Orthodox.

I can always fast longer the next day, but if I offend my wife, who is still on a slow journey towards Orthodoxy, then her soul will be held to my account.

The Fathers also teach that if it is a matter of life and death then monks should eat even meat, because fasting is made for man, not man for fasting.

If fasting is for our salvation then it is not a matter of legalism. The more we embrace fasting the greater our blessing, but I would rather give up a blessing and not offend my wife, one of Christ's little ones, than be proud of my strictness and cause her to believe that Orthodoxy is Christian Phariseeism.

When it is in my power to choose what I eat then I choose to fast and eat fasting food. When it is not in my power then I bless what God has provided.

Peter

[Andreas Moran]

Dear Peter,

I simply cannot agree - I'm sorry. Have you not read the posts I referred to?

In Christ,

Andreas.

[John Charmley]

Dear Helen,

Your post moved me greatly; Kris is surely correct when he says that many will have shared your feelings, and since many of us in the west live in a society shaped by the world-view of Protestantism, it is not surprising.

Symbolism is rooted in our sense of the mystery of the world and of our life in it. We see a debased version of it every day in the secular world with the modern use of 'logos' - an obvious debasing of a Christian word; you see the Nike 'logo' and it represents a 'brand image', or the golden arches of Macdonalds; all these are vulgarised representations of something more profound.

Icons are important for the reasons Kris gives. The Word was Incarnate, Christ wholly human and wholly divine; before Him we could not represent God because He was unknowable; we can now do this, because of Christ. Icons help us focus upon this and provide a way of focusing our hearts and minds upon God and the Saints.

Praying to the Most Holy Theotokos and to the Saints; why not? As Kris says, we pray for others and we ask others to pray for us. We are part of the body of the Church and we work each for the other as best we can, and there is no better way than praying.

The emphasis upon the Most Holy Theotokos can seem like idolatry to Protestants, and I pray for their better understanding of an important aspect of the Faith. We venerate the Theotokos because she provides a pattern for us of what our relationship with God should be. She submitted herself wholly to His will; He came into her life and transformed it. We can admire that, and we can see in her an example. But there is so much more.

Sometimes the Church can be perceived as very 'male' (usually by those outside it who fail to see how many and varied are the important roles played within it by women); the Theotokos reminds us of this important truth. She was neither an Apostle nor a martyr, yet she is the 'Queen of our race' The icons of her with the Holy Child move our hearts and remind us of the importance of love; she loves us, as she did her child, and we can pray to her, as to our mother, for compassion and for intercession. When I stand before the icons of her, I feel her compassion, and I have a huge sense of calm. When you think what she did, I just feel this huge sense of admiration and love for her; may she pray for us all - and, at this moment, especially for you.

On Fasting, as on other matters, there is the danger of Pharisaism. Our Lord recognised the tendency of religious people to think in formalistic ways and provides many examples of how not to do it; we, being sinners, do it all the same. Your spiritual Father will be your best guide on this. I have yet to come across one who does not temper the wind to the shorn lamb. My own Coptic priest keeps the strict letter of the Coptic tradition of fasting, 249 days a year, but he also keeps the spirit, in that he does nothing to make those of us who cannot (yet) reach this level of ascesis feel uncomfortable; he will distribute the vegan food at breakfast after the Liturgy on Sunday (which is a good 20 hours since he last ate), and you need to watch him to notice he is not eating himself.

For Orthodox Christians the Christian life is a process towards theosis - becoming more like the image of God that we were made to be. All the things you have mentioned are aids to us on this journey. Mention if often made of the Church as a spiritual hospital, and so it is. So, dearest to God Helen, do not be surprised that you are sick, or that I am, just thank God that you (and I) are in the right hospital, and if we will listen and be guided, we shall be healed.

In Christ,

John

[Peter Farrington]

Dear Andreas

I have read all your posts and always do with pleasure.

But I do not believe you can or should take a particular example and make it universal.

Also I believe the great weight of the spiritual tradition is on the side of eating what is put before us, if we are unable to have any control over what will be served without causing offense.

True fasting is not found in merely abstaining from food. That is relatively easy, even for me. Indeed I have barely begun to fast truly even while eating fasting food and not eating until later in the day.

The examples you give are inspiring but they cannot be universalised. I could easily choose another saint who gives a different answer to the same problem. As we keep saying here, this is why we have spiritual fathers. We are being healed not obeying laws when we fast.

Peter

[John Charmley]

Dear Andreas,

The example you give in the 'Fasting' thread is supremely moving, but I am inclined to concur with Peter on this.

Can I share this, from The Testament of Asher with you?

2. There is then, he saith, a soul which speaketh the good for the sake of the evil, and the end of the doing leadeth to mischief. There is a man who showeth no compassion upon him who serveth his turn in evil; and this thing hath two aspects, but the whole is evil, And there is a man that loveth him that worketh evil; he likewise dwelleth in evil, because he chooseth even to die in an evil cause for his sake... Another committeth adultery and fornication, and abstaineth from meats; yet in his fasting he worketh evil, and by his power and his wealth perverteth many, and out of his excessive wickedness worketh the commandments: this, too, hath a twofold aspect, but the whole is evil.

This reminds us to keep an eye on the balance in our Christian lives, and to beware that, in keeping to the law in one area, we break the spirit (and perhaps the letter) elsewhere; spiritual pride is a great temptation, and in so far as we acknowledge our falling short and are contrite, are we not taught that the Lord will not despise a broken and a contrite heart?

We might benefit from reflecting on what is written in The Shepherd of Hermas

While fasting and sitting on a certain mountain, and giving thanks to the Lord for all His dealings with me, I see the Shepherd sitting down beside
me, and saying, “Why have you come hither [so] early in the morning?” “Because, sir,” I answered, “I have a station.” “What is a station?” he asked. “I am fasting, sir,” I replied. “What is this fasting,” he continued, “which you are observing?” “As I have been accustomed, sir,” I reply, “so I fast.” “You do not know,” he says, “how to fast unto the Lord: this useless fasting which you observe to Him is of no value.” “Why, sir,” I
answered, “do you say this?” “I say to you,” he continued, “that the
fasting which you think you observe is not a fasting. But I will teach you
what is a full and acceptable fasting to the Lord. Listen,” he continued:
“God does not desire such an empty fasting. For fasting to God in this
way you will do nothing for a righteous life; but offer to God a fasting of
the following kind: Do no evil in your life, and serve the Lord with a pure
heart: keep His commandments, walking in His precepts, and let no evil
desire arise in your heart; and believe in God. If you do these things, and
fear Him, and abstain from every evil thing, you will live unto God; and if
you do these things, you will keep a great fast, and one acceptable before
God.

In Christ,

John

[Nicolaj]

Dear Brethren!

Andreas might be right. And therefore I must refer to the prayers in the first week of lent. There we prayed that Adam was thrown out of paradise because of the sin! His sin was not to obey the ONLY Law God made him and his wife. And that was to FAST from the fruits of the tree!
And so I think it is important to fast without letting something out! It is also meant for the people we know as a sign: A SIGN OF OUR FAITH! We fast according to the Lord and he gives us the power to do so! And if you are offended by my fasting you should ask yourself what is wrong in your life, because sin makes you to be offended!
Sure I didn't fast long myself but I see now that I was wrong.

In Christ, Nicolaj

[Peter Farrington]

Dear Nicholas

I am not sure what you mean? Could you clarify a little?

If I do not fast according to the instructions of my spiritual father I agree entirely that I am likely to have fallen into sin.

But are you saying that it is always the case that if we do not fast for any reason whatsoever, even under the advice of our spiritual father, then we sin?

This does not seem to be in accordance with the Desert Fathers for one source. They always taught that in regard to fasting it was better to eat what was given one and fast privately when that was possible than to make a show of refusing food.

This is not to excuse myself, and I do try to follow the fasting canon of the Coptic Orthodox Church, which is very strict. But in regard to dealing with ones family who may not be Orthodox I am not at all sure that the teaching of the Church is that my private fasting comes before causing a stumbling block to others.

If my wife objects to me refusing to eat a meal she has cooked for me then it seems to me that the Fathers would be on her side not mine.

Adam and Eve teach us about obedience, but there are different obediences. To love one's wife seems to me to come above many private disciplines in some circumstances - but as has been said, this balance is a matter for discussion with one's spiritual father.

Peter

[Nicolaj]

Dear Peter,

If your spiritual Father allows you to do so, it is okay.

I myself do fast and the others in my house don't, for different reasons. Because they are to young, ill or other reasons. But all know that I fast. And all respect that and nobody is offended because I don't eat the things they do for these weeks in the year. My wife is not happy to doesn't have sex but she respects my faith and asks me to pray for her! That is what it is about to bring the FAITH in your house and don't leave it by the door. And mostly they all like the cooking in this times so much they join along in on most days in the fasting and aren't aware that they really fast on that day.
Of course I talked about this with my Father and he said me to do it this way and God will go in front of me and clear the road, just as he did for the Israelites going through the desert.

In Christ,

Nicolaj

[John Charmley]

Dear Nicolaj,

I can't see where anyone was expressing any offence at your fasting; it seemed rather that judgements were being made about those who do not fast as one does oneself, and the purpose of the extracts I offer above was to offer a commentary on that: i.e. making a judgement on others.

I am not in a position where that would be appropriate, and even if I were, I would want to know the facts; it may be there is some economy given of which I am unaware; or it may be that there are other circumstances of which I know nothing.

There is, sometimes, an urge to judge that we should fast from. I think the advice of the Shepherd of Hermas is sound praxis, and that, as we have agreed, we take advice from our spiritual Fathers. Beyond that we can't go in a forum like this; but I would ask us all to look at Helen's initial post and to see if what has been said here is more likely to be helpful to her in dealing with her fourth and final point?

In Christ,

John

[Mary]

Sometimes I feel like an orthodox with a protestant mind. I grew up Orthodox and believe it to be the true church, but I don't understand many things.

*Symbolism (how does it help me),
*icons (why are they so stressed as important),
*preying to Mary (why not prey to God, Would Mary help you if God would not?),
*Fasting (If you don't fast on a certain day without medical reason you are sinning).

Please don't misunderstand to think that i am going against the Orthodox church, as i do practice these things as best i can without understanding it all, hoping that i will some day.
I Can't get rid of the thought that many of these traditions and rules are like when the jews made rules like the hand washing rule in the bible. Who made the many specific rules about fasting in the orthodox church. for example, in the orthodox church how do we know that they were a command from God and that were not falling into the same trap as the jews and their laws.

are we to view these rules in the same way as we view a rule that a spiritual father would give you. As if the cannons and fasting rules were some jiant spiritual father for all Christians?

And my most important question of all....Is there anyone out there who use to relate to what i am saying, but has gone past this point to understanding the orthodox church?

Thanks

Dear Helen,

How exciting that you're asking these questions! I love the fact that our Faith is NOT Blind. For me, asking questions is like Jacob wrestling with God. You already know that God is right and He's going to win anyway. But you grab on to Him and refuse to let go until He has blessed you (in this case, with deeper understanding). For me, wanting to know and understand, doens't mean I'm going against the Church.

I was a Protestant till last year. So, like Ruth I can tell you what my life was like without the Virgin Mary and the Saints, without icons, without fasting, without confession, without the Church ... Totally empty. What did Christ mean by saying he had come to bring me abundant life? Where is the power that we're supposed to have to live a life of holiness? Where is the joy? Where is the peace? Why do I always feel so all alone? Why am I always afraid? Why is Christmas meaningless? What does Easter really mean? Endless questions. The only time I felt alive was when I engaged in Bible studies and 'wrestled' with the Truth. We usually came to the same conclusions as the Orthodox, but to get that knowledge from my head to my heart and make it my own and love it and obey it... was impossible.

God works outside the Church too... He healed my heart in a major way, just before we became orthodox. He helped me to forgive. He healed the pain that came (from what felt to us like betrayal) - to such an extent that I actually enjoyed spending time with those same friends again. I even looked forward to being with them! So, my life was going good, I didn't think I needed to go to a different Church, I just thought I needed to keep doing what I was already doing. BUT I was always SO HUNGRY! It's like waiting all day for a feast, and finally, it is time to eat, and you go into the dining room, you see the food, you smell the wonderful fragrances, your hunger intensifies, your mouth begins to water, but you can't reach the table... I felt so ungrateful for the healing that God had alread done in my life, because I kept asking Him for more. I felt like I was being impatient and greedy.

When I started asking questions about the orthodox church, I didn't think there was anything new there that would help me get to the Table... I saw that they had a lot of rules. None of them seemed harmful. So I tried fasting. I tried the Jesus prayer. I tried crossing myself. I even ventured as far as asking the saints to pray for me! In short, they answered my prayers. =) And now, here I am, feasting like I never imagined possible! And it has nothing to do with food. Whether it's fasting or feasting days, I am filled. Whether I'm stuffing my head full of knowledge or feeling like I dont' ever want to look at another book again, I am filled. I come to Church feeling heavy, some honest confession, some Miraculous Eucharist, and I am light again, and filled, and strengthened.

So - all those things that you're questioning - they're what added Life to my living, colors to my rainbow, music to my song, an anchor to my unstable heart, joy, peace, power and all the missing things, even things that I didn't know were missing! I can't get enough of them - need to make up for lost time. =)

Mary.

[Kris]

Dear Kris,

Forgive me but I cannot agree that not fasting when we should is not sinning - the saints (including St Seraphim and St Afanassi) say it is. Please see my posts on the Thread 'Breaking the fast for love' under 'Ascesis and Praxis.


My point was that a person's relationship to fasting and other ascetic practices varies with each individual and the advice given to them by their spiritual father.

So whereas it might be a sin for one person to not fast on wednesday, this might not be the case for someone else.

[Nina]

Oh my! I can see that Lent has started. Please everyone (a note to myself first): do not forget that temptations multiply during fasting times!

As Elder Joseph the Hesychast said: do not expect marshmallows from the devil when you are battling him with fasting.

P.S Dear Helen, in addition to asking for advise from your friends here at Monachos, please let your spiritual father know about your thoughts and struggle. He can guide you.

Also you can refer to writings of the Fathers and the Saints. Monachos has wonderful resources and not only in the 'Message Boards' area. :)

And please (a sisterly advise) refer to the Virgin Mary with the traditional names we use to address her: Theotokos, Virgin Mary etc. I have been told that that is the Orthodox way to do it. We should never address Her as simply Mary. It was a time when I did not know this info as well, so I understand and I am more than happy to share it with you.

[John Charmley]

Dear Nina,

I much appreciate what you say - as we struggle with temptation, we do sometimes miss other things we should also be concentrating upon.

Why is Monday the optimum time for postings here? There are always more posts on that day, it seems to me.

Our thanks to Helen - and the hope we have not confirmed her doubts.

In Christ,

John

[Mary]

Sometimes I feel like an orthodox with a protestant mind. I grew up Orthodox and believe it to be the true church, but I don't understand many things.
*Symbolism (how does it help me),
*icons (why are they so stressed as important),
*preying to Mary (why not prey to God, Would Mary help you if God would not?),
*Fasting (If you don't fast on a certain day without medical reason you are sinning).
Thanks

Helen, I just caught the tail end of a tape on Ancient Faith Radio and the speaker was talking about fasting and the times of prayer and why the Church does these at set times and days. It answered your question of symbolism so well. I wish you'd heard it!

The times of prayer - 9am, 12pm, 3pm - all tie in with the crucifiction of Christ - at 9am, He was nailed to the Cross, at 12pm the darkeness covered the land, at 3pm, the darkness lifted and He gave up His spirit. Every day, at these times, we take a few moments to pray and remember Christ's Sacrifice. I wish I'd heard all of his message myself! He said the Gospel of Mark is very specific about all the hours of when things happened. I think I'll try to read the Gospel of Mark this Lent.

Anyways - the days of fasting - Wednesday and Friday. Wednesday, was the day that Jesus was betrayed for 30 pieces of silver and Friday, of course, was the day of His crucifiction. The Jews fasted on Monday and Thursday, in remembrance of Moses going up the Mountain - which was on a Thursday, and when he returned, it was a Monday.

That's all that stuck to my slippery brain cells. Hope it helps a little bit to understand why symbolism matters. It keeps reminding us of the most important things of our faith, so we can be thoroughly saturated and never far from the Cross.

In Christ,
Mary.

[Paul Cowan]

Hello everyone.

Something my priest continually says in relation to fasting especially during Great Lent, "watch your OWN plate". Don't worry about what someone else is doing or not doing. The plank in my own eye is large enough for me to worry about removing.

Here is text out of the Holy Saturday evening service that kinda fits here.

"The Master is gracious: He accepts the last as even the first; He gives rest to those of the eleventh as well as to those who have labored from the first; He is lenient with the last while looking after the first; to the one He gives, to the other He gives freely; He accepts the labors and welcomes the effort; honors the deed, but commends the intent. So, all of you, enter into the joy of the Lord; first and second share the bounty, Rich and poor alike, celebrate together. Sober or heedless, honor the day. Those who have fasted and those who did not, rejoice today. The table is full, everyone fare sumptuously. The calf is fatted; no one go away hungry. Everyone, savor the banquet of faith; relish the riches of His goodness. (Bold mine)

Our spiritual advisors, it seems to me, who know what we are capable of doing and not doing should be the ones to tell us how much or little to fast. I can, my wife cannot. I am healthy, she has type I diabetes and many more health challenges.

I heard of one priest who on a prominent Sunday during Great Lent was BBQing in front of the church before services. People were commenting on 'what he could be thinking' by profaning the Fast like this. I'm talking full blown gas grill with all the gadgets and smoked brisket billowing out.

During the sermon he commented on how the judgementalness of the people had wiped out all their good fasting and there is more to the Fast than food restrictions. So, watch you OWN plate.

Kris said:
Fasting is not something we do to gain God's favour, but a tool given to us to help us overcome our passions and draw closer to His grace through prayer and humility.


Fasting is not an end unto itself. If we can rule over our eating, Perhaps we can rule over sin in our lives. We fast to remember Christ's betrayal and passion. Gluttony is a sin. Eating to satiation or beyond during Lent may give way to passions and sinfullness, but is it a sin unto itself? In my opinion, I don't think so. I think it is the right thing to do, don't get me wrong. Obedience and a contrite heart God will not despise.

I had a terrible temptation today. My office served BBQ to a board meeting. There were left overs. I could smell the hickory smoked sausage all over the building. (sorry for the visual, or nasal) What was one bite going to hurt? No one will know I took a bite. No one in my office even cares about fasting. That was the devil talking.

I turned on my heel and went the other way. I maintained my fast and did not give in to temptation. If I can control what goes into my stomach, perhaps I can control other sins in my life.


In love,
Paul

[Nina]

Dear Nina,

I much appreciate what you say - as we struggle with temptation, we do sometimes miss other things we should also be concentrating upon.

Why is Monday the optimum time for postings here? There are always more posts on that day, it seems to me.

Our thanks to Helen - and the hope we have not confirmed her doubts.

In Christ,

John

Dear John,

Actually you are the one who always inspires me with your posts that remind us to concentrate on loving and respecting one another (like you have said previously our cyber-neighbors here). Also a nun I knew used to say: It is Lent, watch out!

Maybe on Monday we feel super energized because we have rested on Sunday. ;)

No, I do not think we have confirmed Helen's doubts. After all this site is named monachos (as in struggler) and not saint. I am not a saint at least. We are all here to help and be helped. We all relate to each other because our struggles even though unique, have the same target and goal: theosis and Paradise.

[Ruth Hrebinka]

Paul,

I have a 7 year old son with Type 1 diabetes. During the Nativity fast I was heating him up a hot dog in the church hall and a woman made a snide comment about it. I just smiled and said, My son has diabetes and when he needs a snack with no carbs, hot dogs are the only thing he will eat!! You should have seen the love and concern she showed when she realized he had a medical condition.

Sometimes I worry that people will look at him wrong because he eats before Communion (my 10 year old doesn't), or has meat during Lent (although he is still a child so it really isn't a concern right now) but I trust that when people find out about the diabetes they will understand.

I think Fasting is there for a reason. I don't always understand the whys and why nots, but I do try to be obedient. And I try to keep a grip on my other passions like judging and anger, rather than worry about whether the vegie burgers I am eating have egg white in them.

I have to admit after 12 years I actually look forward to the fasts! it is a time to slow down, pray more, focus inwardly. I don't really miss the food that much, although the temptation you mentioned must have been difficult!!

Stay strong.

Ruth

[Paul Cowan]

Thank you Ruth,
Yes the temptations to a Southerner from BBQ is a mighty strong passion. :)

I have caught myself praying more (quality, not quantity). and not eating quite so much, though still too much. I am tyring to hold my tongue more and not to give into to like or dislike of something without first considering it's worth. (that one is in the "Unseen Warfare" book I read every morning.) That one is hard to break free of. I doubt I will ever be passionless.

But Lent is about 'coming to ourselves' as in the Prodigal Son story. I just hope I fully come to myself before He fully comes for me.

Paul

[Robert Hegwood]

If I recall correctly St. Basil the holy fool used to eat a big sausage on the front steps of the cathedral every Great and Holy Friday so that he would never in the pride of his heart have the audacity to say that he had perfectly kept the fast.

It is true that we sin if we do not fast...but that fast must be in accordance with pastoral counsel and with the rule of the Church. We also sin if we fast from food but engorge ourselves with other pleasures, if we neglect our neighbor in need. And our sin can arise both from willfulness or our weakness. Sin is not just juridical culpability, it is missing the mark, the standard of life to which we are held. We can sin in complete ignorance of the fact.

It is almost a given that we are going to sin...those of us not yet perfected in holiness..in many ways we are not aware of each day whether in fasting or something else. What matters is how we engage our weakness, how we own it...either like the publican or the pharisee.

I stongly suspect the man who breaks the fast but moarns his sins will find greater consolation in the end that the one who is meticulous in all such things and but takes offense at the failures of his brethren.

So both sets of posters I think have valid points. We are commanded to fast and not fasting with the Church is a sin. Yet the canons are not to be used legalistically but pastorally..by one in pastoral authority...and our obedience is better than sacrifice. However for most of us whether keeping the fast from food is easy or not...it is likely we have not left off our other sins...the actual fast that matters. And therefore we all have occasion to cry out "Lord Have mercy."

[Andreas Moran]

Dear Robert,

I very much appreciated your beautifully-worded post. I do not always fast 'correctly' and I bemoan my weaknesses. So you made the point I was trying to make though I made it clumsily and inadequately. The parish priest in Colchester has said, 'how you spend Lent determines what sort of Pascha you will have'. To 'engage with and own our weakness' - yes - exactly. And always to cry, 'Lord have mercy!'.

Thank you.

In Christ,

Andreas.

[Father David Moser]

The parish priest in Colchester has said, 'how you spend Lent determines what sort of Pascha you will have'. .

I often say something similar to my flock: the more energy you put in during lent - the more joy you receive at Pascha. In my experience,it is unfailingly true that the more I struggle during Lent and especially during Holy Week - I experience greater joy at Pascha. The important thing here is to put your best effort into the fast and you will receive, in return, the "best effort" of the Holy Spirit at the feast.

Fr David Moser

[Andreas Moran]

I take comfort that God looks at effort as much as result!

[Victor Mihailoff]

Paul,

I have a 7 year old son with Type 1 diabetes. During the Nativity fast I was heating him up a hot dog in the church hall and a woman made a snide comment about it. I just smiled and said, My son has diabetes and when he needs a snack with no carbs, hot dogs are the only thing he will eat!! You should have seen the love and concern she showed when she realized he had a medical condition.

Sometimes I worry that people will look at him wrong because he eats before Communion (my 10 year old doesn't), or has meat during Lent (although he is still a child so it really isn't a concern right now) but I trust that when people find out about the diabetes they will understand.

I think Fasting is there for a reason. I don't always understand the whys and why nots, but I do try to be obedient. And I try to keep a grip on my other passions like judging and anger, rather than worry about whether the vegie burgers I am eating have egg white in them.

I have to admit after 12 years I actually look forward to the fasts! it is a time to slow down, pray more, focus inwardly. I don't really miss the food that much, although the temptation you mentioned must have been difficult!!

Stay strong.

Ruth

Dear Ruth Hrebinka. Christ is Lord!

I guess even diabetics differ from one another in fasting requirements. I am a type one diabetic who injects insulin 5 times a day usually. I use a great deal of insulin, more now beacause I cannot get as much excercise as I used to. Too many medical conditions get in the way. When I fast for weeks, my BGL goes down and I use less than half the insulin that I do when not fasting.

Even eggs and cheese necessitate an increase in insulin doses and the strict vegan diet during Great Lent gives me all kinds of temporary health benefits. My blood pressure normalises, (if I keep taking my 13 pills per day) and I have more energy. I require less sleep. My whole body and metabolism works better and other people with permanent med. conds. tell me the same thing.

I would live on that fast always if I could but it drives other people a little crazy and I do not want to upset people when they prepare and serve me a meal. I abstain from many other things and don't feel guilty about not fasting as much as I would if I could without offending or bringing problems to others. Besides, I like having a pizza when there is no fast to adhere to at the time.

May God take exceptional care of your young son! Victor

[Owen Jones]

I think the essence of the protestant mind is a reduction of theology to will, God's will and our will. The protestant tends to think only in terms of acts of the will, God's will or our will. This is the problem. The idea that we are to lose our will, and that God's Grace is in no way limited to His will, these are the things we need to learn experientially as an Orthodox person. In order to experience the fullness of Orthodoxy, it may become necessary not to exercise our will at all for a time, to see what it feels like. That is when we begin to actually become a part of God, not just an object of God's will, or God being an object of our will.

[Denys Kosovsky]

Dear John,

When the fathers appear to be moderate on fasting they mean monastics who take it to extremes. For instance monastics sometimes never eat the whole lent or eat communion bread and wine and holy water, etc. Some do it to such an extent that they get hurt within a few months. When Elder Joseph (or Jacob?) came to Mt Athos he ate once a week on Saturday, but not all people can sustain this because they are not in return sustained by grace from prayer. Elder Macaria was disabled and abandoned on the streets and she spent years eating grass and snow in winter - but she was chosen for this by the Mother of God herself. Basically we should fast and eat, based on whether we have the strength to carry out our duties such as work and prayer. We should not fast so that our duties become impossible to do well. And we should not kill the body.

But that is only for extreme cases of monastics, for ordinary people it is a great sin to break the fast, for instance if you eat meat on Friday it's like you crucify Christ is what they say in Russia. That is very harsh.

The rule is that we should not compare ourselves to the people before us because they fasted harder. When the ancient Russians fasted even the Prince ate only bread and water and nothing at all half the week. We don't do that because we lack strength of prayer and grace. The Fathers might tell a few overzealous ones not to fast too much - a case is quoted of a fat man who immediately fasted 40 days on bread and water and developed a stomach sickness. No wonder! But the Fathers would be less than impressed with us.

Of course, we should have the highest standards for ourselves, but we should not demand it of others. Hence we should eat when we are quests and when we are offered food, so as not to offend the others, and we should never even imply to others that we fast and they should too. But hopefully our example will have some effect. It is right to be tolerant of others when they are not quite ready, but we must be strict with ourselves.

Also saints don't contradict each other. At first they tend to give you an answer that tests you understanding of the issue and the extent to which you are prepared to take it. They don't say 'eat once a week' they say 'eat less than you want to' and some people think this means eating 100 times a week whilst others think that it is right to eat once a week. The saints leave you the freedom of choice, so if you ignore their first advice they will change the answer and adapt it to your lack of zeal. Thus two different people come away with two different types of instructions.

Also although we should be strict in fasting, in order to fast beyond the prescribed amount by the Church we must have the blessing of the priest or a spiritual father.

I hope this is helpful. I'm sorry that it's a bit long.

Denys

[David Naess]

I can relate to my fellow diabetics out there.

This year was my first fast.

After two weeks of practicing the full fast I passed out at church and was taken to hosptal with a glucose count of 34.

Two weeks of either insufficient protein or calcium did me in. Once I put dairy back into my diet I was fine.

Coming from a Protestant background myself, my priest explained it to me this way:

Orthodoxy draws a great circle. Everything within the circle is "Orthodox" and everything outside of the circle is "heresy." Each Orthodox Christian uses everything within the circle that is necessary for their own personal salvation. If something within the circle is not necessary for your own personal salvation you don't use it, but you recognize the fact that, although it might not be necessary for my personal salvation, it might be absolutely essential for the next person.

David