Extreme forms of monastic asceticism and fasting

[Sunny]

I am currently reading the "Matericon-counsels from Abba Isaiah to Nun Theodora." I'm trying to understand the thinking behind the extreme asceticism that I read about. There are comments encouraging the shriveling of the body (by pretty much starving yourself) for example. There's constant comments on stillness and solitude which I kind of understand, but the shriveling of the body thing is perplexing. There was also a monastic in Valaam Monastery who died, and they discovered that his toe nails had grown right through his shoes and so he must have been in extreme pain with that. He must never have bathed (removed his shoes either)! This is unhealthy. Do monastics not bathe for some reason?
I have a hard time relating this to my concept of the Lord Jesus Christ. I can't imagine Him not bathing for years and withering Himself. Just how sure are we that God has led these monastics to this kind of life? In writing about these men and publishing these articles, are the monasteries saying that this kind of life is the best or highest one? Jesus ate and walked and slept and went to church-normal things that we can do. How do we assimilate all the strange monastic things we read and try to figure out what it means to us personally? Are these examples the standard by which we measure our lives?
How do extremes of asceticism fit into our Orthodox faith?
Sunny

[Bratislav]

Dear in Christ Sunny,

This is a very large topic and I think very much could be said and probably already has elsewhere on Monachos.

But where we can start is with Christ's 40 day fast. I cannot believe otherwise than that when He emerged from the harsh desert with no or very little physical sustenance He looked a bit worn and gaunt- perhaps a little "shriveled" even, as your book translates the words of Abba Isaiah.

I have little time to write more right now but hopefully we can get a nice discussion going here.

-Bratislav

[Kieran P.]

Hiya Sunny,

I hope you don't mind a Catholic interjection here. Far as I know, there have always been severe ascetics in our faith, including John the Baptist. In the west, religious orders may be founded around one aspect of Jesus life, whereby religious sanctify their work by imitating The Master.

An example of this is the three vows of poverty, obedience and chastity taken by the Franciscans. This can lead to an ascetic and mendicant lifestyle, and there have been many other Franciscan orders each trying to come closer to the spirit of St Francis.

One aspect which troubled me in your post is the monk whose toenails grew through his shoes. Surely when we perform ascetic duties we must take care not to let these practices become overly external, either in the observance or in how others observe us? Surely we can remain clean and conceal our efforts? Isn't this what Jesus tells us in the Sermon on the Mount?

Also, should he not have been told to change his shoes at some stage and have to comply under obedience? Surely our Lord requires martyrdom from some, but not in this sense?

An addiction to ascetic practices which goes overboard (in the sense of becoming an act of masochism) is what we in the west call vainglory, and in the east is called prelest. It's asceticism for its own sake.

Having said this, I'd hate to sound like I'm impugning the piety of the holy man who died in such a way. I'm certain his love for Jesus was complete.

God bless

[Rebecca Gabl]

From what I've read and experienced, it's all a very individual thing. At the monastery where I was (and there are probably many monasteries like this), we had all the basic needs (6-7 hours of sleep, simple but nutritious food, bathing at least once a week), but usually without the "frills" that most westerners see as necessities. On feasts, and sometimes other occasions, we would have treats or fancier food. But then we'd appreciate it all the more, and take it in the spirit of rejoicing in the feast. I noticed that once I got used to denying myself (and it doesn't take much for me, a weakling, to feel as though I'm denying myself!), when I'd get a little thing like a chocolate bar, I'd be satisfied with just a few bites, not always wanting more like the "greedy Westerner".

I've read in a number of places (sorry, can't tell you where), and heard from monastics themselves, that as the world becomes less and less holy, ascetic feats will become fewer and fewer. Now, we just have to struggle to keep the commandments, love our neighbors, repent of our sins, be moderate in food and drink...if we could be successful in just that, we'd be on the road to Heaven. Also, they talk about taking it slowly. As one becomes more spiritually and physically used to different "hardships" or "denials," one will be able to take on more and more. Or the soul will be purified, so these physical things will become less and less important, and one will naturally have a more ascetic lifestyle...

Oh, what do I know? I hope I don't sound too full of myself...Just rattling off some thoughts.

[Mary]

I have a hard time relating this to my concept of the Lord Jesus Christ. I can't imagine Him not bathing for years and withering Himself. Just how sure are we that God has led these monastics to this kind of life? In writing about these men and publishing these articles, are the monasteries saying that this kind of life is the best or highest one? Jesus ate and walked and slept and went to church-normal things that we can do. How do we assimilate all the strange monastic things we read and try to figure out what it means to us personally? Are these examples the standard by which we measure our lives?
How do extremes of asceticism fit into our Orthodox faith?
Sunny

I shouldn't be responding to this, because I do not have any answers. Jesus didn't have anything He needed to repent of, so He didn't need to lead an abnormal life. But even He fasted and took up His Cross.

In regards to the Valaam Monk - about the toe-nails, I have nothing to say, except that maybe he was so deep in prayer that the last thing on his mind was his toe-nails and his body odor! The worst story I heard was over 10 years ago, so I have forgotten her name - I don't even know if she was Roman Catholic or Orthodox or if she was a saint or not - my teacher read her story in class (Bible School) - She was taking care of homeless people, most of whom were really ill and had ugly sores and lesions on their body. She didn't think it was right of her to feel so disgusted when she washed their wounds, so, to cure herself of the repulsion she felt, she collected a bowl of pus and drank it. The story didn't clarify whether she succeeded in curing herself of her feelings of disgust and repulsion or if she died soon after. Personally, I think it's perfecly ok to be disgusted, but not allow that to keep you from helping that person.

About starving yourself until you shrivel up... I understand that. I'm not sure why, but I decided after the first week of Lent that I loved the Great Canon of St Andrew of Crete too much to be done with it after the first week. So, I've been using it every morning as my morning prayers. Seems it changes every week! But one thing doesn't change - by the end of the week, I can feel the leprousy, the sores and lesions in my soul, I can even taste it. Starting yesterday, I feel like I'm housing something that's dead and rotting, I feel like anyone or anything I touch - either by my words (by talking or posting messages online) or by sight (can't look upon the icons or my children or even myself in the mirror) or with my hands (crossing myself, lighting candles, doing things for someone), will be defiled. So besides praying for compunction and trying to figure out if I can spend the day doing prostrations while the house miraculously cleans itself and dinner cooks itself and the kids take care of themeselves while I try to save my soul - I am discovering a new feeling inside of me - disgust at the very site or thought of food. I'd be happy to starve to death right now.

Having said that, there's the other side of me that gets depressed and gravitates to the food - as a concrete example of how I gravitate towards sin, even though I know it's going to kill me.

So, here I am, still a slave to my passions, because I haven't learned how to starve myself. Please pray for me.

In Christ,
Mary.

[Cyprian (Humphrey)]

Ultimately, it seems this is a question about perceptions of unhealthy asceticism. Certainly, there are some aberrations out there in the monastic world, but I feel a little hesitant to judge them.

It seems to me, to be related to two concepts: the individual's ascetic rule (possibly shared by a larger community), and God-given grace for certain podvigs.

I personally am ex-army. That colours my approach to asceticism. Having done stupid things like go camping with 200 of my closest heavily armed friends with minimal resources for hygeine for extended periods of time, and getting a cumulative amount of 2 hours sleep over 5 days while sitting in a slit-trench, I am leery of a few things that I see and read about being done.

I have visited monasteries where people bathe more infrequently than the average person (once every week or couple of weeks). I just found myself feeling so "icky" that I couldn't focus on anything but my discomfort.

Also, having experienced sleep deprivation that created some interesting (and potentially dangerous, especially when you're armed!) halluncinations, I don't think that kind of thing is for everyone - or all monks.

However, when it is appropriate to the person's repentance, these (and possibly other) "crazy" feats might be done. For example, if a person had a major problems with laziness and sloth, maybe some paring down on sleep (always under the guidance of an experienced spiritual father/mother!!) would be appropriate. Also, when God grants His grace to certain people to be sleepless (St John of Shanghai and San Francisco for example), this is a supernatural feat, and not one to be replicated at whim.

Maybe if someone was repenting of certain sins that may be associated with their feet (ie. going down wrong paths, etc.), it may make a certain level of sense to ignore what we might call regular hygeine. I don't really know about the individual, and I'm not commenting on the monk who had his toenails grow into his shoes, but I'm just trying to say that there may be more to it than it seems.

Someone may be repenting of being very vain and being concerned with how people perceive them, and therefore not concerned with a daily shower. I personally, am more fearful of offending someone with my body odour.

In the Ladder, there is reference to extreme feats of asceticism done by monks in the prison (chapter 4 I think - please correct me if I'm wrong!). I've heard many people criticize the Ladder for that passage because they think it's encouraging mental illness. However, when I read the Ladder in it's entirety I don't get that sense at all. I suspect the context may have something to do with it. Even when I was in (a Protestant) Bible College, a regularly heard refrain was "context, context, context!"

Ultimately, the context of a person's individual repentance, and blessings is important to consider.

But this is only my 2 cents worth. Feel free to ignore it.

the unworthy Rhiasaphormonk,
Cyprian

[Matthew Panchisin]

Dear Sunny, Kieran and Mary,


Since it is the great fast it seems appropriate to mention that Saint Mary of Egypt was a rather severe monastic. But the intention was not to neglect or abuse the body as she ate what the desert provided. Our bodies or anyone's body aka temple is not to be abused by anyone for any reason. Undistracted prayer is most important and sought after, so concerns for the things of the body are lessened. Even when the monks of older days chained themselves up such things had been done to stay awake in prayer as they understood that at different hours of the night different demons might have warred with them while sleeping. Hence attentiveness and prayer was more important than sleep etc.

In the Orthodox Church flagellantism and such things, movements of public mortification or other types of related displays are not considered right practices. In fact Kieran, the Orthodox Church does see many problems with the ways of Saint Francis. An article called, A Comparison: Francis of Assisi and St. Seraphim of Sarov can be read online which may be of some help in understanding our differences. http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/francis_sarov.aspx

The woman who drank the bowl of pus was with the Latin's, Father Averky mentioned her several years ago on this forum rightly mentioning that such things are not of God.

I have not read the account of the monk whose toenails grew through his shoes, I suspect that his body was found many years after he reposed. It is not uncommon for the hair and nails on the toes and fingers to continue to grow after death.

In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin

[John Charmley]

Dear Cyprian,

I don't think we should ignore what you say at all - it seems wise and thoughtful; context is, indeed all. We should be as wary of making adverse judgements as we are in emulation. God calls us all in different ways, and we must beware of presumption on our part.

There is a long and honourable tradition of asceticism; no doubt to those not called to a particular vocation some things may appear odd - but what business is it of ours to comment adversely?

That is not to say that there are not examples of false asceticism - all holy things have their satanic imitator that would deceive the people of God if that were possible, and we are told that 'by their fruits shall ye know them.'

So let us heed your words, and ponder these things.

In Christ,

John

[Mary]

Dear Sunny, Kieran and Mary,


Since it is the great fast it seems appropriate to mention that Saint Mary of Egypt was a rather severe monastic. But the intention was not to neglect or abuse the body as she ate what the desert provided. Our bodies or anyone's body aka temple is not to be abused by anyone for any reason. Undistracted prayer is most important and sought after, so concerns for the things of the body are lessened. Even when the monks of older days chained themselves up such things had been done to stay awake in prayer as they understood that at different hours of the night different demons might have warred with them while sleeping. Hence attentiveness and prayer was more important than sleep etc.
In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin

Dear Matthew,

When I said I'd be happy to starve to death, I didn't mean that in a self abusive way. I was, infact, thinking of St Mary, who didn't eat a whole lot - and focused on praying and repenting. In fact, if I did find myself not eating at all, but not replacing it with prayer and repentence, that would be a certain sign to me that I am outside of God's will.

I haven't yet read anything on the Orthodox view of flagellantism and other such things, but if I were to deliberately abuse my body to show repentance, I would feel like I'm taking things into my own hands, and, in a way, saying that God is being too easy on me, so I'm going to make myself worthy of His attention. There isn't anything I can do to earn God's mercy or even deserving of an audience with Him. If I need to be in physical pain, I'm sure God will find a way of giving me some illness that causes pain. If I am to starve to death, it would have to be through a situation where no food is available - like a famine. It would even be wrong of me to go to a place where there is a famine, just so I could starve... Or cause a riot so I could get a beating! =)

In Christ,
Mary

[Sunny]

Forgive me,
I wanted to clarify about the monk that was found after death with his toenails through his shoes. In this same article there was a comment that said that the monastic was so caught up with the Lord that he probably didn't even notice that this had happened or was happening. I did not mean to cast him in a bad light.

My question was more concerning how we are to integrate these things that we read about the monastic lifestyle into our own Orthodox life. Perhaps this is pointless pondering and trying to understand something that is too spiritual for me to understand.
I just look at that kind of life and then look around at my life and end up feeling very confused. (Which is a frequent state for me-I guess).
I ask forgiveness from all for bringing this topic up and for any negative effect this may have had on anyone.
Sunny

[John Charmley]

Dear Sunny,

Please do not worry, I don't think your posts can possibly have upset anyone - they are so self-evidently the product of a genuine attempt to understand.

Perhaps those of us not so called cannot understand; perhaps understanding in our sense is irrelevant.

On the other hand, there are occasions when one cannot help but wonder where the inspiration to some forms of asceticism actually comes from. There was a recent, and widely reported case, of a Romanian nun who died after an attempted exorcism. She had been tied and chained to a cross and denied food and water during the exorcism and subsequently died. The story is on line at http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4107524.stm

Now, I know this is not asceticism as such, but it comes along the same train of thought. I feel certain someone will respond by saying this was a western plot, western misreporting, and the Romanian priest was a very holy man, and they may even agree with his reported statement that 'God has performed a miracle for her, finally Irina is delivered from evil,'. It is exactly that attitude towards some of the more extreme forms of asceticism that seems to be a trifle worrying.

As Matthew reminds us, our body is the temple of the spirit, and just as we should not abuse it in lust and lasciviousness, nor should we in asceticism; there is something about the religious temperament which instinctively understands the first part of that, but which totally fails to see the second. Was it the Manichean heresy which preached that losing oneself in lust and giving oneself over to carnal delights was a form of asceticism?

Our Lord seems to have set us an example to follow, and most of us find that quite hard enough to imitate. Those who are called by Him to the higher asceticism command enormous respect, but unless we are so called, let us admire those who are, and get on with bearing the cross of our daily life. After all, sometimes, there may be as much struggle in being a good husband or wife, a good father or mother, a good employee or employer, and walking in His way amidst the temptations of this world, as there is in retiring to a monastery and struggling with the temptations of the solitary life.

We all come to Him and serve Him in the way He calls us; through prayer, through worship, through repentance we attune ourselves to Him and to the sound of His voice. Upon that we must all act.

In Christ,

John

[Paul Cowan]

Dear John:

You said:
There is a long and honourable tradition of asceticism; no doubt to those not called to a particular vocation some things may appear odd - but what business is it of ours to comment adversely?


This is even in scripture. John 21:19-22. Jesus tells His disciples to "follow Me". Peter turns and sees St. John and says "what about this man?" Jesus said what is that to you? You follow Me."

Does this not say we are to follow Christ and NOT look at our brothers path? Just as in fasting we are to look at our own plate. Whatever severe form of ascetisism one might be performing, "what is that to you?" should stand in our mind at all times. What might be sever for one might be child's play for another yet scandalize a child in Christ.

We all have to be careful to hide our ascetism as the Holy fathers did under their clothing for none to see as Christ says in Matthew 6:17. "But when you fast, annoint your head and wash your face"...

We also have to be careful to place ourselves under a wise spiritual father that will dictate to us our limits and knows more than we how much or how little to pray, fast, sleep, eat, etc....I violated this very ideal when I started the thread, How do I not run out of material. Please forgive my foolishness. Your posts in that thread quickly made me realize how tooo much I was trying to undertake on my own power.

in love,
Paul

[Kieran P.]

Dear Sunny, Kieran and Mary,


In the Orthodox Church flagellantism and such things, movements of public mortification or other types of related displays are not considered right practices. In fact Kieran, the Orthodox Church does see many problems with the ways of Saint Francis. An article called, A Comparison: Francis of Assisi and St. Seraphim of Sarov can be read online which may be of some help in understanding our differences. http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/francis_sarov.aspx


In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin

Hiya Matthew,

I'd read that article some years ago and thought is was so unfair that it was almost tantamount to racism. The great gist of the criticism of St Francis was that he was too expressive and "in love", like - say - an Italian, whereas the great saint of the east - St Seraphim - was more austere and silently ascetic, like a phlegmatic, pragmatic Russian.

It accused St Francis of prelest, although it quotes him (non-stop) out of context. There can barely have been a more wretched and humble soul in existence. Yet St Seraphim's claim that he'd save people's souls even from beyond the grave didn't recieve any such criticisms.

For me, I recognise they take different approaches and come from different traditions and different parts of the world with two differing temperaments...and yet uniquely, they clearly have one source for their holiness and that's the call of Christ. This is a miracle which is unique to our faith. No matter if we're men, women, Icelandic or African, academic or wild, we can all be lights from the one prism - Our Lord.

Elsewhere, by the way, I've read Orthodox views towards St Francis which are both favourable and inspirational to anyone who wishes to give it all up and become a "holy fool".

By the way, I read the article originally because St Seraphim is my favourite saint of the eastern churches. I've read his 'Little Russian Philokalia' and just last wek gave it to my spiritual director, who was quite impressed.

God bless and take care!

[Andrew]

My spiritual father has told me, "Read the fathers, and then forget what you have read!" This doesn't mean disregard what they say; it means to go to them for inspiration and guidance in repentance, but realize your own level, so to speak. We are far, far, far from these righteous ones. But we can take baby steps into the Kingdom of Heaven. We might not be so rapt in ceaseless pray that we forget about our toenails, but we can cut down on entertaintment, vanity, extra expenses, and whatnot and focus upon the heart and His Presence. We can carry a little chotki in our pocket... when speaking with others and thinking we have something clever to say, we can intentionally hold our tounge; if we have a certain food we really really enjoy, we can give it away to someone else; if we want to do something when with friends or family, we can intentionally not do it and instead secretly subordinate ourselves to the will of another... we can deny ourselves in minor ways and gain the grace of God.

[Andrew]

Hiya Matthew,

I'd read that article some years ago and thought is was so unfair that it was almost tantamount to racism. The great gist of the criticism of St Francis was that he was too expressive and "in love", like - say - an Italian, whereas the great saint of the east - St Seraphim - was more austere and silently ascetic, like a phlegmatic, pragmatic Russian.

It accused St Francis of prelest, although it quotes him (non-stop) out of context. There can barely have been a more wretched and humble soul in existence. Yet St Seraphim's claim that he'd save people's souls even from beyond the grave didn't recieve any such criticisms.

For me, I recognise they take different approaches and come from different traditions and different parts of the world with two differing temperaments...and yet uniquely, they clearly have one source for their holiness and that's the call of Christ. This is a miracle which is unique to our faith. No matter if we're men, women, Icelandic or African, academic or wild, we can all be lights from the one prism - Our Lord.

Elsewhere, by the way, I've read Orthodox views towards St Francis which are both favourable and inspirational to anyone who wishes to give it all up and become a "holy fool".

By the way, I read the article originally because St Seraphim is my favourite saint of the eastern churches. I've read his 'Little Russian Philokalia' and just last wek gave it to my spiritual director, who was quite impressed.

God bless and take care!

the traditional Orthodox critique of the spirituality of Francis doesn't have much to do with his temperment. We have saints who were mad with divine eros towards God, like Saint Symeon the New Theologian, Elder Porphyrios of blessed memory, and thousands of others. What we Orthodox have a problem with is the imaginative devotions used by Western mystics. Desiring to see visions of God, imagining God in the mind, and attempting to enter into ecstasies are extremely dangerous and lead directly into prelest. All must approach God in the heart, freeing the mind of all images, thoughts, concepts, etc., in repentance. This is the way of asceticism. If God chooses to reveal himself as blessed light to us who dwell in darkness, then so be it. Come Lord Jesus! But if he chooses not to, we cannot force him. We can labor and he will grant us grace, but we desire not to see visions of God; we desire to see our sins.

[Kieran P.]

Hi Andrew,

Then it seems that the Orthodox are judging western prayer on what you see occur externally. We don't desire "to see visions of God, imagining God in the mind, and attempt[ing] to enter into ecstasies".

But we do worship with our whole self. We bring ourselves to Christ in trust and penitence, without fear, and also based purely upon scripture and church dogma and guidance. We are not encouraged to fantasise in any way which encourages delusion. Our spirituality is different to the easts, but no less ascetic. We could just as easily say that eastern asceticism is more akin to yoga, emptying the mind and so forth. This would also be an erroneous judgement based upon the externals. Into an empty mind, any form of delusion may also enter.


All must approach God in the heart, freeing the mind of all images, thoughts, concepts, etc., in repentance. This is the way of asceticism.

This is a way of asceticism, but obviously not the only one. Also bear in mind, the western Church is filled with many different strains of spirituality. It can't be only confined to rosaries and divino lectio (sp?).

As for St Francis, there has never been a more penitent soul in history. I'd recommend that you familiarise yourself with some of his writings and his life, and also the effect he has had down the ages.

I've never heard of any Catholics who scrunch their eyes shut tight and try to summon up an image of God, or demand to see Him! If we could see Him in such a way, I might get black eyes from all the clenching and the scrunching!

God bless and keep well..

[John Charmley]

Dear Kieran, Dear Andrew,

One of the things that comes through your interesting discussion is, yet again, the great value of this site in allowing us to discover what it is the other actually believes and practices - rather than the distorted version we so often ingest from various sources which may have their own bias.

None of us can say there is only one mode of asceticism without being prideful; those whom God calls in this way, He calls as He wishes.

In so far as there is an ascesis of everyday life, it still seems to me that we are all called to practice self-discipline, self-denial and restraint; try being married for any length of time without practising these things - or try rearing children without them. So much of our Christian literature is written by those who have not had to exercise asceticism in these every day directions.

As Christians we are all called to repentance and to follow Him; as one with much to repent, I find an ascetical discipline in walking in His way amidst the distractions of work and family; it is quite sufficient of a challenge for my undeveloped self to cope with.

In Christ,

John

[Matthew Panchisin]

Dear John and Kieran,


the great value of this site in allowing us to discover what it is the other actually believes and practices - rather than the distorted version we so often ingest from various sources which may have their own bias.

Actually John for me the above is not an accurate statement but rather an advancement of something that we have been hearing very strongly in the past ten years or so, namely we really believe the same things if the Eastern Orthodox would only but see it.

In the Orthodox Church there no different spiritualities as there is only one way and truth, one Christ, one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. An Orthodox Christian can recognize the same Orthodox Christian spirituality whether it is a Russian Saint, Greek, or from a cave somewhere.

Recently I heard a panel of 5 Franciscan teaching theologians speaking about lent. They had mentioned many things, too many of which simply in truth are not the same as what the Orthodox Church teaches. They presented what they actually believe and practice which was and is a very distorted version of many things. They had been the source of those distortions in a very public way. What they presented is what their order and the Latin church teaches through that order.

There is no question that the imagination is often called upon in the Latin church, this can be seen very clearly in the stations of the cross meditations.

In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin

[Kieran P.]

Hi Matthew,

It would be helpful if you quoted the Franciscans or cited a link so we could see what you mean.

As for different spiritualities in the western Church, there can be as many as there are people! Yet the source and destination of all Church activity is the same. And all prayer and worship should be accompanied by a sound knowledge of the doctrine and teachings of the church.

As for imagination in the Stations of the Cross, we don't imagine what isn't there. We bring our being to prayer and try to comprehend through grace the sacrifice on the cross. But we don't fantasise or 'pretend' or make-believe. It isn't that sort of thing at all.

It would be just as simple for us to state that eastern practices are far too subjective and vague, yet I'm sure if they're explained clearly, they can be reconciled with proper spiritual practices. I've read books on the Jesus Prayer which speak of deification in a way which is so unclear as to sound pantheistic! But of course, I realise this isn't what's meant and so can give the benefit of the doubt.

God bless and keep well...

[John Charmley]

Dear Matthew,

The statement that:

In Orthodox Church there no different spiritualities as there is only one way and truth, one Christ, one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. An Orthodox Christian can recognize the same Orthodox Christian spirituality whether it is a Russian Saint, Greek, or from a cave somewhere.

possibly goes towards the point I was making. For my part I lack an understanding of either Orthodox or western spirituality that is comprehensive enough to sustain the line you take so firmly; I accept that you say it is so, but am uncertain that I grasp the totality of what you might mean by spirituality in the sense you employ it.

If it is, as this might be taken to imply, that there is one way, His way, one truth, Him, and one light, that of the Triune God, I suspect we all agree; I don't see my Catholic friends taking a different line.

I take your view:

Actually John for me the above is not an accurate statement but rather an advancement of something that we have been hearing very strongly in the past ten years or so, namely we really believe the same things if the Eastern Orthodox would only but see it.

but that is not what I think I am saying. But I think I am saying that there is no harm in exploring what the limits of common belief might be; that way we have a clearer idea of what divides us. As things are, there are many instances on this site of folks claiming that someone else believes 'x' or practices 'y', which then meet with refutation from someone from that church.

I am well aware, of course, that there is only one Church, as I am of the fact that more than one set of people lay claim to it; but a discussion of that is, I think, off limits, and rightly so, since this site does not exist to explore that matter. What people believe in faith is respected by me; no one died and elected me the arbiter of other peoples' souls - and I am profoundly grateful for it, too.

It might help if, as Kieran said, you could say a little more about what you think the difference is, since he does not think this business about 'imagination' quite catches it.

In Christ,

John

[Andrew]

Hi Andrew,

Then it seems that the Orthodox are judging western prayer on what you see occur externally. We don't desire "to see visions of God, imagining God in the mind, and attempt[ing] to enter into ecstasies".

But we do worship with our whole self. We bring ourselves to Christ in trust and penitence, without fear, and also based purely upon scripture and church dogma and guidance. We are not encouraged to fantasise in any way which encourages delusion. Our spirituality is different to the easts, but no less ascetic. We could just as easily say that eastern asceticism is more akin to yoga, emptying the mind and so forth. This would also be an erroneous judgement based upon the externals. Into an empty mind, any form of delusion may also enter.



This is a way of asceticism, but obviously not the only one. Also bear in mind, the western Church is filled with many different strains of spirituality. It can't be only confined to rosaries and divino lectio (sp?).

As for St Francis, there has never been a more penitent soul in history. I'd recommend that you familiarise yourself with some of his writings and his life, and also the effect he has had down the ages.


I have experience with Catholic devotionals... I used to pray the rosary and various traditonal Roman Catholic devotions (to the Five Wounds, Sacred Heart, etc.). I have read a good deal on Francis (probably not as much as you, though). There was a time in my life where I wanted to become a Catholic. So, I think I have a fair idea of Roman Catholic devotional practice, meditation, and such things.

Roman Catholics are encouraged to imagine the wounds of Christ while praying, and the various points from his life during the Rosary and other devotions. The key thing that I'm saying is that this is encouraged while one is praying... the imagination is running and forming things while in prayer. The Fathers do not encourage this. They encourage watchfulness over the heart and the mind in stillness and repentance. This isn't just "a spirituality," it is the universal way in which man is called to come to know God. Orthodoxy is one... all are called to live the same spiritual life, it may be expressed in various ways, but the substance is the same, because it is the Way of Christ.

Sometimes I think I write too harshly and hyperbolically... please forgive me. I don't mean to offend or disparage you or your faith. Please forgive me if I have misrepresented things; I do not mean any of this to prove you wrong, or to make myself appear right.

And with Francis of Assisi, believe me, I respect him. He would have been my patron saint if I had entered into Roman Catholicism.

[Kieran P.]

Hi Andrew,

I'm not offended by anything you said in your very generous post. The thing regarding imagining "the wounds of Christ while praying, and the various points from his life during the Rosary and other devotions", is this. We don't go off in flights of fancy. Any meditations on the truths of our faith are beneficial. We read scripture in the same way. Scripture is understood in collaboration with the Holy Spirit, through the doctrines and the teachings of the Church.

We don't wildly daydream regarding the passion of our Lord - we reflect on it. We contemplate it while we pray, but not in a way as should excite the senses or cause violence to the imagination. It's merely a form of contemplation, and believe me - all the Church fathers would have had to contemplate in such a way to understand the truths of faith.

Our bishops discourage any form of subjectivism with regards to worship, theology, private prayer, and this is important.


They encourage watchfulness over the heart and the mind in stillness and repentance.

These are exactly the instructions I recieved when I first came to the Church from a Franciscan monk. By the way, the exact same charges of falling into delusion and error can be levelled at Orthodox prayer when they empty their mind of images. As I said earlier, this could be confused with yogic practices, if we didn't know better.

Not all Catholic practices involve contemplation in this manner, however, and when we pray the daily office and chant the psalms, we do it, I'm sure, as you do it in the East.

God bless, and keep well...

[Robert Hegwood]

With regard to the prison chapter of The Ladder. A couple of things stood out for me the first time I read it. One, what these men willingly endured, indeed drew down upon themselves was horrific. Second, St. John clearly saw the horror of it and admirred them immensely. I wondered for a while what to make of it...were they crazy? Was it just a labor that belonged to a stronger simpler time?

The modern reader not prepared to meet such images can easily form the opinion that these guys were either insane or deluded and cannot imagine the why or how of what they did. It was certainly a tempation my part to see them this way, for the deliberate self-inflicted cruelty of their lives just didn't make sense to me.

But given that St. John was a saint and that he found how they lived terrible as well, and yet he praised the quality of their repentance to the heavens though he did not choose to live that way himself... it struck me that perhaps more was going on here than the simple narrative. So I asked myself another question...what would make such a frightful insane looking existance entirely reasonable.

The only answer that seemed to fit was that these men had all once known extraordinary grace...had lived in heaven while on earth as it were, or something very close to it...they knew theological delight and joy in the presence of God that tongue cannot utter and for one reason or another, they stumbled and fell, and now sat in a kind of darkness...the darkness most of us consider normal existance...and since the temptations of this life had caused them to stumble and lose the joy of God's presence that they once knew they purposed to despise this life for the love of God having come to their senses. From the midst of hell they chose to love God without the slightest sign of his forbearance and grace beyond the bare fact of their continued existance. Nothing here compared to what they had known and they would do anything, endure anything to taste again the sweetness of that life, that communion...and further for the love of the Master they had spurned they turned away even from that desire to abase themselves in repentance.

This is all to say...what we see by the measure of their repentance is the mirror image...the inverse of the heights they once knew in Christ. And the lesson we should take away is a fearful one...for if their deeds were the deeds of sane men, then how far they must have fallen, and how far from this pit of darkness have we yet to climb...and how great is the salvation that we are neglecting it sometimes seems with every breath.

[Herman Blaydoe]

Professional athletes accomplish greater feats than amateurs. Does this make them "better" people? Does the fact that an athlete devotes his entire life to football (either one for our Euro brethren) make him less of a person than the person who only plays on weekends?

Monastics are professional spiritual athletes (as in the analogies of the Holy Apostle Paul), and many of us here are merely amateurs. Some of us may be spiritual couch potatoes, others weekend warriors, while others are regular members of formal leagues, and indeed, some of the posters here are "major league". Those of us who are NOT in the major league certainly look to those who are "professional" for "pointers" and inspiration, and as examples as to what can be accomplished if we want to try. This does not mean we do everything as they do, but we try to emulate what we can, given our own circumstances, knowing that the closer we come to their example, the closer we come to their achievements, if that is what we want. Realizing, of course, that they have made very specific sacrifices and efforts above and beyond, that we may not want to make or are simply incapable of at present for whatever reason.

And indeed, as Seraphim/Robert tells us, they have attained heights and experiences that we have not, making it difficult to meaningfully "judge" or put value to what they have done. It was obviously worth it to them. What sort of experience do you imagine it could have been to inspire them to such extremes?

Simple thoughts from a simple mind.

DISCLAIMER
The ideas expressed here may or may not reflect the opinion of the poster. Text may contain material some readers may find objectionable, spiritual guidance is advised. The drinking of beverages while reading these posts is strongly discouraged; not responsible for damage, discomfort, or staining caused by spit-takes or "nosers." Not responsible for direct, indirect, incidental or consequential damages resulting from any defect, use of satire, or failure to suit your particular sense of humor (or lack thereof). Some shifting of context may have occurred during shipment. For external use only. Void where prohibited. Not legal in all spiritual states. Consult a licensed and reputable spiritual advisor before applying. For recreational use only. May exceed the maximum recommended daily dose of irony. If a rash, redness, irritation, or swelling develops, discontinue use. If condition persists, consult your spiritual physician. This notice applies to all posts by this poster whether or not it is included in the post and supercedes all previous disclaimers.

[Andrew]

With regard to the prison chapter of The Ladder. A couple of things stood out for me the first time I read it. One, what these men willingly endured, indeed drew down upon themselves was horrific. Second, St. John clearly saw the horror of it and admirred them immensely. I wondered for a while what to make of it...were they crazy? Was it just a labor that belonged to a stronger simpler time?

The modern reader not prepared to meet such images can easily form the opinion that these guys were either insane or deluded and cannot imagine the why or how of what they did. It was certainly a tempation my part to see them this way, for the deliberate self-inflicted cruelty of their lives just didn't make sense to me.

But given that St. John was a saint and that he found how they lived terrible as well, and yet he praised the quality of their repentance to the heavens though he did not choose to live that way himself... it struck me that perhaps more was going on here than the simple narrative. So I asked myself another question...what would make such a frightful insane looking existance entirely reasonable.

The only answer that seemed to fit was that these men had all once known extraordinary grace...had lived in heaven while on earth as it were, or something very close to it...they knew theological delight and joy in the presence of God that tongue cannot utter and for one reason or another, they stumbled and fell, and now sat in a kind of darkness...the darkness most of us consider normal existance...and since the temptations of this life had caused them to stumble and lose the joy of God's presence that they once knew they purposed to despise this life for the love of God having come to their senses. From the midst of hell they chose to love God without the slightest sign of his forbearance and grace beyond the bare fact of their continued existance. Nothing here compared to what they had known and they would do anything, endure anything to taste again the sweetness of that life, that communion...and further for the love of the Master they had spurned they turned away even from that desire to abase themselves in repentance.

This is all to say...what we see by the measure of their repentance is the mirror image...the inverse of the heights they once knew in Christ. And the lesson we should take away is a fearful one...for if their deeds were the deeds of sane men, then how far they must have fallen, and how far from this pit of darkness have we yet to climb...and how great is the salvation that we are neglecting it sometimes seems with every breath.

"The kingdom suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force."

[Andrew]

Professional athletes accomplish greater feats than amateurs. Does this make them "better" people? Does the fact that an athlete devotes his entire life to football (either one for our Euro brethren) make him less of a person than the person who only plays on weekends?

Monastics are professional spiritual athletes (as in the analogies of the Holy Apostle Paul), and many of us here are merely amateurs. Some of us may be spiritual couch potatoes, others weekend warriors, while others are regular members of formal leagues, and indeed, some of the posters here are "major league". Those of us who are NOT in the major league certainly look to those who are "professional" for "pointers" and inspiration, and as examples as to what can be accomplished if we want to try. This does not mean we do everything as they do, but we try to emulate what we can, given our own circumstances, knowing that the closer we come to their example, the closer we come to their achievements, if that is what we want. Realizing, of course, that they have made very specific sacrifices and efforts above and beyond, that we may not want to make or are simply incapable of at present for whatever reason.

And indeed, as Seraphim/Robert tells us, they have attained heights and experiences that we have not, making it difficult to meaningfully "judge" or put value to what they have done. It was obviously worth it to them. What sort of experience do you imagine it could have been to inspire them to such extremes?

Simple thoughts from a simple mind.

DISCLAIMER
The ideas expressed here may or may not reflect the opinion of the poster. Text may contain material some readers may find objectionable, spiritual guidance is advised. The drinking of beverages while reading these posts is strongly discouraged; not responsible for damage, discomfort, or staining caused by spit-takes or "nosers." Not responsible for direct, indirect, incidental or consequential damages resulting from any defect, use of satire, or failure to suit your particular sense of humor (or lack thereof). Some shifting of context may have occurred during shipment. For external use only. Void where prohibited. Not legal in all spiritual states. Consult a licensed and reputable spiritual advisor before applying. For recreational use only. May exceed the maximum recommended daily dose of irony. If a rash, redness, irritation, or swelling develops, discontinue use. If condition persists, consult your spiritual physician. This notice applies to all posts by this poster whether or not it is included in the post and supercedes all previous disclaimers.

This is a good analogy. Just because there are athletes who tower at over seven feet tall and train nonstop doesn't mean that we can't learn to dribble, make free throws, layups, and even sometimes three pointers. We may not be "professionals" but we too can enter into "the game," so to speak. And we have the aid of these professionals in all aspects of life for direct guidance.

[M.C. Steenberg]

I'd read that article some years ago and thought is was so unfair that it was almost tantamount to racism.

I must say I agree with this assessment.

INXC, Matthew

[Nina]

I am currently reading the "Matericon-counsels from Abba Isaiah to Nun Theodora." I'm trying to understand the thinking behind the extreme asceticism that I read about. There are comments encouraging the shriveling of the body (by pretty much starving yourself) for example. There's constant comments on stillness and solitude which I kind of understand, but the shriveling of the body thing is perplexing. There was also a monastic in Valaam Monastery who died, and they discovered that his toe nails had grown right through his shoes and so he must have been in extreme pain with that. He must never have bathed (removed his shoes either)! This is unhealthy. Do monastics not bathe for some reason?
I have a hard time relating this to my concept of the Lord Jesus Christ. I can't imagine Him not bathing for years and withering Himself. Just how sure are we that God has led these monastics to this kind of life? In writing about these men and publishing these articles, are the monasteries saying that this kind of life is the best or highest one? Jesus ate and walked and slept and went to church-normal things that we can do. How do we assimilate all the strange monastic things we read and try to figure out what it means to us personally? Are these examples the standard by which we measure our lives?
How do extremes of asceticism fit into our Orthodox faith?
Sunny

Dearest Sunny,

You are so wonderful for trying to implement, or understand the ascetic labors of the holy people. I feel like that many times. However as Rebecca, Bratislav, Andrew, Matthew_P, Herman, Mary, Robert, Cyprian have mentioned, those holy examples are there to inspire us.

If you are learning a new sport, and you see someone in front of you who is slightly better, or much better, you not only notice the proper way, but get more encouraged to push yourself harder and follow. The same applies to our faith and what we do for Christ. And of course as all our wonderful friends here mentioned, it is a matter of personal ability.

We also should remember that God said that when He leaves we should be fasting. Also He said that the way to the Kingdom of Heaven is very narrow. I guess all of those ascetics are taking the narrowest path and they are doing it out of an immense love for God. They are saying in action that they are the least of humans, by paying zero attention to themselves.

Their ways, even though sooooo infinitely unattainable to me, serve as a source of inspiration. Some of my very, very, very beloved Saints are St. John Chrysostom, St. Mary of Egypt, St. Seraphim of Sarov, St. Simeon the Stylite (there is a symbolic reason that we start the ecclesiastical new year with St. Symeon the Stylite who lived for so long exposed to atmospheric agents) etc.

Of course I can not stay up all night like St. Chrysostom in prayer; or stay for so long without food, or human contact like St. Mary of Egypt in a desert; or like Sts. Seraphim or Simeon praying in the cold or heat - I assure you that I do the complete opposite of what those marvelous Saints accomplished. However their deeds are there like stars at night to guide me and give me heart to push myself a bit harder towards God.

[Andrew]

In addition, if a book is just causing confusion and/or despair, then you don't have to read it. Some things just don't click, and there may be more spiritually beneficial things out there. For example, the Philokalia and the Ladder... they are both true expressions of the Faith and are ideal for our advancement in repentance and prayer. At the same time, they are not exactly for everyone. We can always ask our spiritual father for recommendations on what to read.

[Matthew Panchisin]

Dear Matthew,

I have read Saint Francis a bit, although it was around 30 years ago. After reading the article I did not think or concur with Kieran and you that the article approached racism. Surely his intentions and heart (a place of sincerity) had been very Christ centered as central to his understanding is to love God. That was quite clear in his writings if my memory serves me correctly. I assume that such a conclusion is imported into the article by any reader not relying exclusively upon an secondary approach. Perhaps there is much fault in that. Certainly not seeing the article as you do was a cause for great concern. It is clear that Kieran's heart is in the right place and your reputation as being very well read, fair and balanced and of good and right judgment is well known throughout this community. As such I thought; "My such a pathetic state my soul must be in as I did not clearly see the article as almost tantamount to racism. To put forth such things for the consideration of others here is not good at all. My soul is in a very pathetic state and I'm not even aware of it?" In such a way I was thinking of myself.

I further recalled with much fondness a dear holocaust survivor whom I had the privilege of knowing and learning much from working closely with him daily for 10 years. He was a victim of authentically understood racism to say the very least, he knew where it lead as most people who are not amoral do. I do not think the author of the article was sharing in that spirit as I understand it in any way. My older friend a Jewish Holocaust survivor shared many terrible stories with me, his whole family was murdered. I recall him mentioning how disturbed he was seeing a father and a son violently fight over a potato peel. That disturbed him more than his job as a 14 year old hardly extending a helping hand placing bodies in the ovens of fire. I could not say that imposed starvation is the same as the ascetism that the God loving and fearing Rabbi's or the Orthodox Priestmonk Father Roman experienced in the camps. There would be many differences, but who would know what those differences are among them, save themselves and how? In the end my dear friend the survivor mentioned that he can not hate as he could not live that way, a very real and often overwhelming temptation for him for many years. He knew well that hate and things approaching that way destroys souls while remaining a devout Jew. He dismissed many thoughts as he had to and wanted to but could never forget. There are degrees of life, reconciliation and knowledge it seems. It has been written that without Christ we can do nothing. It has been written and re-written somewhere that a tree is known by it's fruit. From what I understand some monastics tend to cut things at the root rather quickly when those things had been seen as harmful or detrimental.

It is authentically clear to me that we can see in the body of Patristic writings some rather harsh words expressed against Jews and heretics by many Church fathers. I suspect that the approach was pastoral minded in many ways. As the son of an Orthodox Priest I grew up seeing everything approached in a pastoral minded way, perhaps from life experiences that is solidified somewhat in how things are viewed here. To be very honest and forthright we can not deny the truth that everything is not always nice, monastic's often tell us that the spiritual realm is not always a benign place, we can recall the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence... Christ mentions false Christ's, and wolves in sheep's clothing, beware etc.


Do you think that Saint Francis victimized would object to such unfairness if it lead some to embrace the Orthodox faith? It seems it would result in breaking communion with the Bishop of Rome who is sometimes referred to as the "successor of Christ" in these days? I suppose that there could be different types of ascetism that lead to the same places and beliefs?

Nevertheless let us hope that Saint Francis does not rejoice if he hears his different orders or "co-redeemers of mankind" rejoicing and uttering such things while making up for that which is lacking in Christ's' sacrifice and afflictions. While it is true that Christ desires that they all be one, clearly discerning assessments of commentary approaching racism "sounds good" to be fair. What happens to all theology when the "successor of Christ" is further promoted sincerely?

I suppose some from a pastoral perspective would not want to convey any notions that such and such is ok, perhaps that is what the author had in mind. I can not say. Suffice it to say that I do not see the article as being so onesided and unfair that merits applying the label or any term approaching racism, that seems to me to be a bit strong. I suggest we give the author the benefit of the doubt. I could be way wrong and look forward to any comments that can help out.


Dear Sunny and Nina,



"Of course I can not stay up all night like St. Chrysostom in prayer; or stay for so long without food, or human contact like St. Mary of Egypt in a desert; or like Sts. Seraphim or Simeon praying in the cold or heat - I assure you that I do the complete opposite of what those marvelous Saints accomplished. However their deeds are there like stars at night to guide me and give me heart to push myself a bit harder towards God."


It is good to know that whatever we do no matter where we are we can love God and others. Husbands can love their wives as Christ loves his Church. Woman can love their babes staying up on and off all night tending to their needs always loving. It seems to me in such a singular Christ centered way the cold can be warm and the heat can be cool. There is a profound beauty that we are to embrace in Christ, loving even our enemies. From what I've read that is the perfect gift of God that comes down from above the Father lights, since God is Love.

In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin

[Nina]

Dear Sunny and Nina,
It is good to know that whatever we do no matter where we are we can love God and others. Husbands can love their wives as Christ loves his Church. Woman can love their babes staying up on and off all night tending to their needs always loving. It seems to me in such a singular Christ centered way the cold can be warm and the heat can be cool. There is a profound beauty that we are to embrace in Christ, loving even our enemies. From what I've read that is the perfect gift of God that comes down from above the Father lights, since God is Love.

In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin

You reminded me of a saying of Mother Olympiada from the monastery in PA. A friend of mine told me that Mother Olympiada said to a busy mother of four boys that: "You are praying by tying the shoelaces of your children."

I was so amazed because even during this seeming spiritually inutile action, a mother, or parent is fulfilling a sublime Christian mission without even realizing it. This little, mundane detail can have the power to bring a parent closer to God. Since I do not have children yet, it remains still an abstract notion for me. Maybe God willing in the future I will understand it better what parents go through for us.

[Kieran P.]

Hi Matthew Panchisin, :)

The article is unfair in that it misrepresents St Francis to such a degree as to make him sound like a deluded megalomaniac with visions as himself being on a par with Our Saviour. It mistakes his natural expressiveness and outward personality as a weakness which could only be tempered by having a soul as pragmatic and inward (for want of a better word) as St Seraphim.

As you're familiar with St Francis writings, I don't need to tell you that a more humble soul rarely trod this world. He most certainly didn't see himself as being in any way like Our Lord at all, but in his wretchedness he wished to suffer and in his confidence in Christ he longed to bring the Good News to the four corners of the world. You probably recall the great story of how he (somehow!) made his way before the Sultan in Syria, where the saint challenged the Muslim to a trial by fire:

"If you wish to be converted to Christ along with your people, I will most gladly stay with you for love of him. But if you hesitate. . .then command that an enormous fire be lit and I will walk into the fire along with your priests so that you will recognize which faith deserves to be held as holier and more certain."

Some may say this is madness, others might see it as being inspired by the story of the prophet Elijah and an outrageous level of trust in the Lord, nay, maybe even an intimate relationship. There have been many men of God who've carried such strength to the non-believers and convinced them of the truth.

There are a lot ways in which people can be racist, and your Jewish friend suffered in one, most despicable fashion. But whenever someone asserts a way as being better simply based upon the characteristics of race, then this is racism. There are grey areas in this also.

I certainly don't believe that you're racist and that your heart is also in the right place. You should never have doubted yourself on account of your post here. I understand that you believe it was pastorally minded, but I disagree with your assessment. I also wonder if you could cite a source for the Pope being called "Successor of Christ". I've never heard this before, though I have heard the Pope called many things! Lol...

If you google "Successor or Christ" it refers you to pages devoted to Muhammad, of all the most distasteful things imaginable. :(

God bless, and keep well...

[M.C. Steenberg]

Dear Matthew,

My thanks for the thoughtful comments above, which I enjoyed reading. The article in question is notorious for inspiring deeply varying reactions amongst Orthodox readers. I shouldn't be worried if your reading of it was different than another's - least of all mine! I've no doubt of the sincerity of the author; however I still remember feeling the article (which I read some years ago) so deeply misrepresented Francis' thought, so de-contextualised his comments and acts, that it lost its credibility even to make the valid points the author wished to express. This is a shame. Worse, at times it is simply libelling the memory of the man through misrepresentation.

A real comparison of Francis and his spirituality to that of another individual is a valid project. I don't feel this article has done it. One can never make an authentic, profitable comparison by distorting and defaming one of the people being compared. Pace to Keiran, Francis was not always a humble man; but he had an authentic humility, battling with convictions of the need for reform and the rectitude of a means. His humility was a struggle.

To put things from a different angle, it would be just as easy -- and just as profoundly unfair -- to make St Seraphim out as a megalomaniac by taking single comments or single acts of his life and framing them into a presupposition of overarching prelest and arrogance. Clearly this would be false.

The same authenticity and fairness should be given to all.

INXC, Matthew

[John Charmley]

The same authenticity and fairness should be given to all.

INXC, Matthew

Dear Matthew,

Amen to that - and not only in this context. Not, I hope, a plea for syncretism, but for an Orthodox approach.

Today I stood in the Orthodox chapel at Walsingham, lit a candle there for those here, and then listened to a blessing from a Russian Orthodox priest, Fr. Stephen, whose aura of holiness was visible. At that moment it felt impossible to think ill of anyone - for those who wish to remain lost, naught but sorrow and a prayer that they may be found.

Within the fullness of the faith it seemed to me as though His love can conquer all, and that leaving oneself open to it was sufficient. Sometimes, in the vernacular, we comment 'who died and made you ...' - well, He died - and made us free when He rose again. That calls for repentance and amendment of life - not adverse comments on others doing their best.

Or so it seems to me.

In Christ,

John

[Andrew]

Dear Matthew,

Amen to that - and not only in this context. Not, I hope, a plea for syncretism, but for an Orthodox approach.

Today I stood in the Orthodox chapel at Walsingham, lit a candle there for those here, and then listened to a blessing from a Russian Orthodox priest, Fr. Stephen, whose aura of holiness was visible. At that moment it felt impossible to think ill of anyone - for those who wish to remain lost, naught but sorrow and a prayer that they may be found.

Within the fullness of the faith it seemed to me as though His love can conquer all, and that leaving oneself open to it was sufficient. Sometimes, in the vernacular, we comment 'who died and made you ...' - well, He died - and made us free when He rose again. That calls for repentance and amendment of life - not adverse comments on others doing their best.

Or so it seems to me.

In Christ,

John

This calls to mind Saint Silouan's talk with a hermit... I think we all know it here. The hermit said that he would not mind seeing atheists burn in hell, but the holy man said, "Love cannot bear that."

[John Charmley]

Dear Andrew,

That is a wonderful quotation; many thanks for sharing it with us.

St. Isaac the Syrian wrote:

Do not hate the sinner. We are, indeed, all laden with guilt. If for the sake of God you are moved to oppose him, weep over him. Why do you hate him? Hate his sins and pray for him, that you may imitate Christ, who was not wroth with sinners but interceded for them.

Perhaps the purest asceticism was the self-denial of the Holy Theotokos who submitted herself wholly to the will of God, and whose whole life was one of service to us all; perhaps another example of the way in which too great a concentration on the feats of some of our great spiritual mentors can sometimes blind us to the opportunities which come to us every day as part of our lives.

Another two quotations from St. Isaac to conclude:

When we have reached Love, we have reached God and our journey is complete.
and

This life has been given to you for repentance. Do not waste it on other things.

In Christ,

John