Family tree of Christ

[Alex Haig]

I've heard a talk in which the family tree of Christ is set out.

Joseph had a wife before Mary, called Salome, and had four sons (and some daughters).
One of the daughters was called Salome, she married Zebedee (of James and John fame).

So, James and John are the step grandsons of Mary.

Has anyone got any (quotable) references for this, or have I completely misunderstood what was said?

With love in Christ

Alex

[Brian B.]

Dear Alex,

I don't know much about this but in the Protevangelion of James, Salome is a midwife in Bethlehem who at first doubts Mary's virginity.

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/infancyjames.html

In Christ,
Brian

[John Charmley]

Dear Alex,

The following from The Fragments of Papias is, I hope, helpful here:


(1.) Mary the mother of the Lord;
(2.) Mary the wife of Cleophas or Alphaeus, who was the mother of
James the bishop and apostle, and of Simon and Thaddeus, and of one
Joseph;
(3.) Mary Salome, wife of Zebedee, mother of John the evangelist and
James;
(4.) Mary Magdalene. These four are found in the Gospel. James and
Judas and Joseph were sons of an aunt (2.) of the Lord’s. James also
and John were sons of another aunt (3.) of the Lord’s. Mary (2.),
mother of James the Less and Joseph, wife of Alphaeus was the sister
of Mary the mother of the Lord, whom John names of Cleophas, either
from her father or from the family of the clan, or for some other reason.
Mary Salome (3.) is called Salome either from her husband or her
village. Some affirm that she is the same as Mary of Cleophas, because
she had two husbands.

St. John the Evangelist was thus, in the flesh, the cousin of Our Lord, since tradition has it that Mary Salome was the sister of Our Lady the Most Holy Theotokos.

Brian B. is quite correct, of course, about the other Salome.

I hope that helps. I am sure others will have more to add.

In Christ,

John

[Paul Cowan]

This is a negative point of view, but I have heard non-believers say, "if you look at the family of Jesus, most of his disciples came from His own family. This leads them to think it was a family cult of sorts or a conspiracy started from before Christ was born by his parents so Joseph could try to fulfill prophesy himself by helping Jesus fill in the gaps of prophesy at his birth, such as 'from Egypt I called my son'. and 'He will be called a Nazarene.' These could ONLY be fulfilled if the father (Joseph) had a play in it."

A very sad point of view, but if you are talking to people who have never seen nor believe in a miracle and who believe the Bible is just a book of fairy tales, what else would you expect them to say about the Christ?

I suppose if people choose not to believe, they never will.

Paul

[Ruth Hrebinka]

"St. John the Evangelist was thus, in the flesh, the cousin of Our Lord, since tradition has it that Mary Salome was the sister of Our Lady the Most Holy Theotokos." quote.


This is true, but according to tradition when Herod killed the innocents 6 months after St. John was born, St. Elizabeth took her son and ran into the desert, where they found safe haven in a cave which opened up while they were being pursued by the soldiers. St. John never returned until he began to preach. First cousin of Jesus or not, they never met or spoke until Jesus came to him at the River Jordan for baptism and I don't think Jesus said, Hello, I am your cousin.

St. John recognized him for what he was...The Son of God.

So much for a family cult.

Ruth

[Paul Cowan]

Thank you Ruth. I will do more research so I have more "ammunition" to defend the Truth.

http://www.stjohngoc.org/life.html

Paul

[Nina]

Yes Ruth and to that I would like to add what our Christ said about who His true family, relatives are.

[John Charmley]

This is a negative point of view, but I have heard non-believers say, "if you look at the family of Jesus, most of his disciples came from His own family. This leads them to think it was a family cult of sorts or a conspiracy started from before Christ was born by his parents so Joseph could try to fulfill prophesy himself by helping Jesus fill in the gaps of prophesy at his birth, such as 'from Egypt I called my son'. and 'He will be called a Nazarene.' These could ONLY be fulfilled if the father (Joseph) had a play in it."

A very sad point of view, but if you are talking to people who have never seen nor believe in a miracle and who believe the Bible is just a book of fairy tales, what else would you expect them to say about the Christ?

I suppose if people choose not to believe, they never will.

Paul

Dear Paul,

Indeed. Those who wish to believe something other than what the Church has always taught will do so, but it is very odd all the same, because the same people will often believe something far less well attested from the past.

I have always thought that it would have been odd if members of Christ's earthly family had not followed him. Belief is just that, but we know more about Our Lord and His mission than we do about most people of that era. The tradition of the Church (which, of course, includes the scriptures) can be traced right back to the beginning of the Faith; what historians would not give for such a continuous tradition for other events from antiquity.

We believe that the Holy Spirit has guided the Church from that time to this, and will do so unto the ages of ages - and there is as much evidence for this as there is for most historical 'facts'; indeed, a good deal more. But in the end, as Doubting Thomas found, Faith is about believing even when you cannot see - not evidence; but, as an historian, I would say that the evidence is as good as you are going to get for anything of that period.

Nothing can 'prove' that Jesus Christ was the only begotten son of God - but the Church has always taught it, and that is good enough for millions of us.

As Nina says, it is the members of the Church who are His children; but the wonder of it is that He brings salvation to all who will hear, repent, and believe on Him.

In Christ,

John

[Mary]

As a protestant, I had a very poor view of Jesus's family. His brothers thought he was mad and when his mother came to talk to Him I thought He was turning her away when He said "Who is my mother...?" (Mt 12:46-50) That's all I knew.

I remember that one of my most joyful discoveries was that some of His disciples where members of His own family! After all, they're the ones He had spent most of His growing up years with. I was thrilled to find out, that they loved Him too, and followed Him and even died for Him. It had always been hard for me to imagine that His own family members couldn't respond to His love and rejected Him - what could be more painful than finding yourself in Paradise and none of your family and friends with you, because they rejected Him? Perhaps that's one reason I feel that everyone I know will make it to heaven somehow.

All the relationships that we find ourselves in, are very important. Our families and friends are the ones who know us inside out - all of our weaknesses, all of our hypocricies. Strangers can be fooled, with fancy words and fake behavior, but not your family. For your own family to believe you, is the greatest testimony to your truthfulness. For His own family to believe that He is God, is the strongest testimony to His Divinity. At least, that's the way it seems to me.

And then there's the 'friendship factor' - Philip goes to Nathaneal. His friend. Who but a friend would respond to a "Come and see"? No explanations, no details, Philip said Come, and Nathaneal went. I wouldn't follow just anyone who told me to come. My whole reason for even considering orthodoxy, was firstly due to my love and respect for our friends who had become orthodox before us. I know there are many people who find Orthodoxy without that connection of friends/family. But for me, it was a very important thing, because I find it easier to learn from people than to read the same things from a book.

Forgive me for forcing my simple observations on you all, yet again.

In Christ,
Mary.

[Olga]

.Joseph had a wife before Mary, called Salome, and had four sons (and some daughters).


According to Church tradition, Joseph's first wife was, in fact, called Solomonia.

[John Charmley]

Dear Olga, Dear Alex,

Olga's last, and helpful post, confirms what Alex says in his first post on this thread. I wonder, however, if we might turn to St. Joseph's first marriage?

The co-called Infancy Gospel of James [http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/infancyjames.html] refers to this first marriage and tells us that the 'brothers' of Jesus were its product. Clement of Alexandria, Origen, Hegesippus, Eusebius of Caesarea, Hilary of Poitiers, Gregory of Nyssa, Cyril of Alexandria, Ambrose, and Epiphanius of Salamis in Cyprus, all seem to have concurred in this notion.

However, there are other Fathers who doubt this attribution on the following grounds:

1. The flight into Egypt mentions only a Holy Family of 3, plus midwife

2. Luke 2:41-52 seems to imply that as late as the 12th year of His earthly life, the Holy Family still consisted of 3 people.

3.St. Matthew refers to Jesus as the heir of Joseph, which he would hardly have done had there been older male children from a first marriage.

4. Had Jesus had brothers it would have been to their care, not that of St. John, that he would have confided His blessed mother.

The best resolution of this that I have seen is St. Jerome's. He points out that 'brother' has a variety of meanings in the family customs of Jewish culture at that time: Abraham called his brother’s son, Lot, his brother (Gen. 13:8), and Laban used the same term for his son-in-law (Gen. 29:15). By this token, the 'brothers' were, St. Jerome posits, actually cousins. According to St. Jerome’s theory, the brothers of Jesus were the sons of St. Mary of Clopas, the wife of Alphaeus and the sister of Virgin Mary (John 19:25).

The Coptic Orthodox Church tends towards St. Jerome's view, notwithstanding the authority of some of the Fathers mentioned above who take another view.

Either way, it is pleasing to think that in His earthly life Our Lord was part of a large and loving extended family.

In Christ,

John

[Herman Blaydoe]

1. The flight into Egypt mentions only a Holy Family of 3, plus midwife
Not to contradict the Fathers, but the account would certainly mostly concern itself with the "most important" participants, not necessarily all of them. Of course the entire Nativity Narratives never give mention of others besides St. Joseph the Betrothed and the Theotokos either.


2. Luke 2:41-52 seems to imply that as late as the 12th year of His earthly life, the Holy Family still consisted of 3 people.
I am not so sure. The account indicates a fairly sizeable party, such that the presence of our Lord was not missed for some time.


3.St. Matthew refers to Jesus as the heir of Joseph, which he would hardly have done had there been older male children from a first marriage.
Well, in as much as our Lord was certainly part of St. Joseph's family, He was an HEIR in the familial sense, to the line of King David, even if He was not the eldest son inheritor of St. Joseph's estates.


4. Had Jesus had brothers it would have been to their care, not that of St. John, that he would have confided His blessed mother.
Hmmm. Again, I am not so sure. The Theotokos was NOT the mother of his "brothers and sisters", so they were not responsible (in the sense of the Law) for her welfare. I have always seen this quote to simply show that the siblings of Jesus were not the children of the Theotokos, as testified to in the Protoevangelion of St. James.

I stand ready for criticism or correction if these tboughts are in error.

Your servant and Pascha Pilgrim,
Herman
A struggling pilgrim on the Lenten Road to Holy Pascha

[John Charmley]

Dear Herman,

Many thanks for your most interesting response, which is along the lines of the other Fathers mentioned. The points you make are all (as ever) sensible, and quite as likely as St. Jerome's version.

The Infancy Gospel of James makes no mention of other children on the flight to Egypt, but that proves nothing; there would have been plenty of relatives back in Nazareth with whom the older children could have stayed.

The short answer thus far is that we cannot be sure, since the Fathers themselves were not, and tradition is not clear.

On the subject of the sons of God, things are, thankfully, clearer.

With all good wishes for the last parts of our Lenten journey,

In Christ,

John

[Mary]

Just a brief note - when I was working through Mary's evervirginity while converting, I had to re-think those verses that talk about Jesus's brothers. As a protestant, you use those verses to prove that she had other children...

Anyways - I thought about it from a cultural angle - which even protestants are encouraged to do when trying to understand what a passage teaches, but somehow, we didn't apply it equally to ALL passages!

Culturally, I believe the Jesus lived in a society very much like the ones that I grew up in, in Ethiopia and India. Very family oriented. The first thing that I remembered was that in Tamil (the Indian language that I speak) - there is NO word for 'cousin'! So, if I were to introduce you to my cousins, I would say "These are my brothers and sisters" and unless you know my family intimately, you'd think I was saying they were all born to my father and mother.

In Ethiopia - although they do have a word for 'cousin' - I've never heard it used. Many times, I've been introduced to someone brother or sister only to find out that they're cousins - and not even first cousins - they might be so distant that there's no common blood between them, or they might be someone that they grew up with, that they were really close to, and they are really not related in any way.

So - Jesus's brothers were related to him, but it's not really important how. If it were so important, I'm sure the Church would have kept that information alive somehow. What does matter is that He was Mary's only Son. We know that for a fact. And that makes everything just perfect =)

In Christ,
Mary

[Anthony]

I think it is similar in Russia, or at least the part of Russia I am familiar with. My dictionary gives "kuzen / kuzina", but I have never heard them used.

[Paul Fowler]

In his book 'The Easter Enigma' (written some years ago as an answer to David Jennings, then Anglican Bishop of Durham, a theologian with some odd views), Gordon Wenham makes a strong case from the scriptual accounts of the Crucifixion that St John the Evangelist was the cousin of Our Lord.

Wenham is of course not Orthodox, he is an Evangelical, but it is interesting he came to the same conclusion as the Orthodox Tradition.


Paul

[Nina]

In his book 'The Easter Enigma' (written some years ago as an answer to David Jennings, then Anglican Bishop of Durham, a theologian with some odd views), Gordon Wenham makes a strong case from the scriptual accounts of the Crucifixion that St John the Evangelist was the cousin of Our Lord.

Wenham is of course not Orthodox, he is an Evangelical, but it is interesting he came to the same conclusion as the Orthodox Tradition.


Paul

Thank God he was enlightened on that fact! God disperses "seeds of the Truth" everywhere for people to be led to His True Church and Orthodoxy! "He who has ears, let him hear."

[John Charmley]

Dear Nina,

I thought the following might be helpful; it is from the writings of Pope Shenouda III, who not only writes from the Coptic tradition, but, of course, as an Egyptian with a deep knowledge of the customs and history of that part of the world.

He writes that children of one's maternal aunt were at that time regarded as one's brothers and sisters on the strength of this close tie of kinship according to the Jewish custom when one spoke of those born in the relationship, adding:



So it was on account of these ancient customs that the sons of Christ's maternal aunt, Mary the wife of Clopas, were called Jesus' brothers and sons of Mary. It was about this Mary, the wife of Clopas, that the Bible said: "Now there stood by the cross of Jesus His mother, and His mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene." (John 19:25). And this was the Mary mentioned by Mark when he said: " There were also women looking on from afar, among whom were Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James the Less and of Joses, and Salome,. " (Mark 15:40)

This James, Joses and Salome were all children of Mary the wife of Clopas, and it was they who were mentioned in what the Jews were saying about Christ: " Is this not the carpenter's son? Is not His mother called Mary? And His brothers James, Joses, Simon, and Judas?" (Matt. 13:55; Mark 6:3)

As for the Virgin Mary, she gave birth only to the Lord Christ, and then lived as a virgin for the rest of her life, and so the 'brothers' of Christ mentioned above were not her children, but those of her sister. (So Many Years with the Problems of People, volume IV 1992, p. 169)


I hope that helps.

Have a blessed and peaceful Holy Week.

In Christ,

John

[Nina]

Dear Nina,

I thought the following might be helpful; it is from the writings of Pope Shenouda III, who not only writes from the Coptic tradition, but, of course, as an Egyptian with a deep knowledge of the customs and history of that part of the world.

He writes that children of one's maternal aunt were at that time regarded as one's brothers and sisters on the strength of this close tie of kinship according to the Jewish custom when one spoke of those born in the relationship, adding:

Yes, I know... My maternal great-grandmother was Jewish.




Have a blessed and peaceful Holy Week.

In Christ,

John

Thank you and I wish the same to you! :) :) :)