Quote of St Augustine on the limits of the Church

[Mina Soliman]

Dear anyone,

According to Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev's "The Mystery of Faith," he uses a quote of St. Augustine to validate that although we know where the Church is, we shouldn't be surprised for those who were considered not in the Church to be judged as if they were:


When dealing with the difficult question of Christian divisions, the Orthodox may wish to bear in mind that God alone knows where the limits of the Church are. As St Augustine said, ‘many of those who on earth considered themselves to be alien to the Church will find that on the day of Judgment that they are her citizen; and many of those who thought themselves to be members of the Church will, alas, be found to be alien to her’. To declare that outside of the Orthodox Church there is not and cannot be the grace of God would be to limit God’s omnipotence, to confine Him to a framework outside of which He has no right to act.

Unfortunately, +Hilarion did not give a source for that quote, and I have a problem finding the source of the quote. Would anyone here know the source of St. Augustine's quote?

I would be indebted to your answer.

God bless.

Mina

[John Charmley]

Dear Mina,

That is an excellent quotation, and touches on a theme which we have come across many times here. I have had a good look through my St. Augustine and cannot find it.

There is often a stock response to St. Augustine, to the effect that whilst the Orthodox Church recognises him for his repentance and sanctity, it does not regard his work as defining dogma; or words to that effect. I've never been quite sure why, although it may have something to do with the common (but I suspect misleading) reading of his views on Original Sin.

The line this quotation takes is also one which has aroused controversy here, although it is one I have always found persuasive; we cannot determine for God who is saved - although we can, given our fallen human nature, presume that we can; but that isn't the same thing at all.

I tend towards what St. Isaac meant when he wrote:

In love did God bring the world into existence; in love is God going to bring it to that wondrous transformed state, and in love will the world be swallowed up in the great mystery of the One who has performed all these things; in love will the whole course of the governance of creation be finally comprised.

St. Isaac was one of those who held that whether man had fallen or not, there would still have been an Incarnation, because that is the fruit of God's love for us. If He loves mankind that much, who would dare set a limit to that love?

Still, these are deep, and somewhat controversial waters, and I should hate to rain on the parade of anyone who took the counter view.

In Christ,

John

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear John,


There is often a stock response to St. Augustine, to the effect that whilst the Orthodox Church recognises him for his repentance and sanctity, it does not regard his work as defining dogma; or words to that effect. I've never been quite sure why, although it may have something to do with the common (but I suspect misleading) reading of his views on Original Sin.


Shortly after St Augustine's death there was controversy over his ideas concerning grace. I am not sure if this ever extended beyond the west into the east however. The more recent disagreement over St Augustine has it is true extended beyond the topic only of grace and sin into that of original sin.

Not having studied St Augustine deeply enough on my own I don't really know
how accurate this disagreement really is. I think there are many who have picked this theme up in more modern times from Fr Georges Florovsky all the way to Fr John Romanides.

A more long enduring disagreement however is over St Augustine's Trinitarian theology. As we were told in seminary, "pastorally St Augustine is a wonderful read but his theological writings can be quite problematic."

Tonight I was reading Fr John Romanides who writes that St Augustine's filioque is largely responsible for the Great schism. What's so interesting about this presentation is how historical it is as well as being theological. Fr John in particular draws a very harsh line in between what he feels are the distortions in St Augustine's Trinitarian theology, the early western scholastics and the Frankish Empire. There's enough in this for a few decades of in depth study!

My own shoddy opinion for what it's worth is that we Orthodox have tended to put too much of the blame on St Augustine's shoulders. I have heard many very thorough presentations of later (much later when you think of it) western scholastic theology which portray a very convincing picture of the problems in that area. But the problem is how we draw such a straight line from this to St Augustine. Again I'm really no expert. But later scholastics don't really have a similar feel to much that one finds in St Augustine. Yes, often he has a unique way of reasoning his way through various moral or theological questions. But I get the feeling this is due more to the influence of his background in rhetoric rather than as a philosopher- which is the charge most often hurled at him. In a way I get the sense that he's more a moralist in the way he reasons than a philosopher.

I still tend to draw the distinctions my Patristics/ Dogmatics professor often made in class. He knew St Augustine very thoroughly and always said we must recognize the difference between St Augustine and later augustinians. Although our professor clearly believed there was much that was problematic in St Augustine's theological perspective he also said that more damage had been done by later interpreters of him.

On no account would he allow us to go near the idea that St Augustine was heretical. Mistaken in some things yes, but not heretical.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Mina Soliman]

Part of my personal interest in patristic studies besides other studies that I must do is St. Augustine. I have bought a very comprehensive biography of St. Augustine, and I'm reading it

http://www.amazon.com/Augustine-Hippo-Biography-Revised-Epilogue/dp/0520227573

I'm hoping that this book also provides on where to start on my reading of St. Augustine; it has a nice timeline of events for St. Augustine, as well as what he has written and where to find English translations if any (I'm probably going to read in order of what he wrote to not only learn from him, but see any evolution or change of his thought). I have started reading much of St. Augustine's Confessions, although using Schaff's Old English edition really annoys me, and I'm tempted to buy a Penguin edition (sometimes I pretend to read out loud "you" in "thee" or "thou" and skip the "ye" parts--I hate old English, but that's just me).

Anyone on the source of that quote I posted?

[John Charmley]

Dear Fr. Raphael,

Many thanks for this thoughtful excursus. I suspect that, as so often in these matters, it was what later thinkers made of parts of St. Augustine's voluminous writings rather than what Augustine himself made of them. This is a not uncommon problem. After all, in his own lifetime Origen was not considered heretical.

It relates back to a discussion we have had before about developing interpretations. Your dogmatics/patristics professor sounds a wise man. I have to say that of all the Fathers, St. Augustine is the one I have greatest trouble coming alongside; I should try harder.

Again, thank you very much Father,

In Christ,

John

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Part of my personal interest in patristic studies besides other studies that I must do is St. Augustine. I have bought a very comprehensive biography of St. Augustine, and I'm reading it

http://www.amazon.com/Augustine-Hippo-Biography-Revised-Epilogue/dp/0520227573

I'm hoping that this book also provides on where to start on my reading of St. Augustine; it has a nice timeline of events for St. Augustine, as well as what he has written and where to find English translations if any (I'm probably going to read in order of what he wrote to not only learn from him, but see any evolution or change of his thought). I have started reading much of St. Augustine's Confessions, although using Schaff's Old English edition really annoys me, and I'm tempted to buy a Penguin edition (sometimes I pretend to read out loud "you" in "thee" or "thou" and skip the "ye" parts--I hate old English, but that's just me).

Anyone on the source of that quote I posted?


A very helpful book I read this past summer was The Young Augustine (revised edition) by John J O'Meara. In a very accessible way it goes into St Augustine's background as a youth & young man, his education and the role of Manicheism in his life. The general approach is to see how all of this affected what conversion meant for St Augustine and I think the author does a pretty good job of it.

Sorry I have no idea of where the quote comes from. I did a fast search through The City of God but with no success.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Alex Haig]

The thread reminded me of this point: just because someone is a saint or a holy man does not make all his teachings correct. As Orthodox, we deny the infallibility of the Pope, but set up these teachers, whether alive or dead, as infallible.

We take as authoratitive the teachings of the Fathers not because they were given by great saints, but because they espoused the teachings of the Church.

With love in Christ

Alex

[John Charmley]

We take as authoratitive the teachings of the Fathers not because they were given by great saints, but because they espoused the teachings of the Church.

With love in Christ

Alex

Dear Alex,

A good point; and we take those teachings as authoritative because they are part of the Faith once given to the Apostles and handed on by them through the Church, including the Fathers.

Although my searches through the works of St. Augustine continue to fail to show up the source for the quotation, it is not dissimilar to comments made by St. Isaac and others; a good reminder for us to adopt an attitude of suitable humility to God's will.

In Christ,

John

[Mina Soliman]

It is worth mentioning that St. Augustine was a very strong proponent to the idea that "Outside the Church there is no salvation." It lead St. Augustine early in his life to write that babies won't go to heaven.

I did find a quote quite similar to what he said:


”The Apostle Paul hath said: "a man that is an heretic after the first and second admonition reject, knowing that he that is such is subverted and sinneth, being condemned of himself." But though the doctrine which men hold to be false and perverse, if they do not hold it with passionate obstinancy, especially when they have not devised it by the rashness of their own presumption, but have accepted it from parents who had been misguided and fallen into error, and if they are with anxiety seeking the truth, and are prepared to be set right when they have found it, such men are not to be counted heretics.” (St. Augustine, epist. 43, 1)
http://www.unitypublishing.com/godskingdom/NoSalvationBrian.html

Doing another search, I did find an interesting article, and they cited something that is what I might be looking for:


Further, he insists that which side a person will be on does not at all depend on prevision of merits.[68]

...

68. "Idem, De diversis quaestionibus" LXXXIII 68. 5. PL 40. 73.

Doing a further search for St. Augustine's "83 Diverse Questions", I found this:

83 Diverse Questions, David L. Mosher, trans., Fathers of the Church Series vol. 70

If anyone has this, can they verify the quote? And does anyone know how I can own a copy of these series?

God bless.

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Doing a further search for St. Augustine's "83 Diverse Questions", I found this:

83 Diverse Questions, David L. Mosher, trans., Fathers of the Church Series vol. 70

If anyone has this, can they verify the quote? And does anyone know how I can own a copy of these series?

God bless.

This series is published by the Catholic University of America.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Mina Soliman]

Thank you Father.

Would it be nice if there's a collection of "Holy Fathers" material that compiled every single work any Holy Father wrote (not just CCEL)?

Up until now, I never realized that we still have more writings of St. Augustine more than what was presented at CCEL.

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Thank you Father.

Would it be nice if there's a collection of "Holy Fathers" material that compiled every single work any Holy Father wrote (not just CCEL)?

Up until now, I never realized that we still have more writings of St. Augustine more than what was presented at CCEL.

I think Migne may be the most complete series of the Fathers, both east & west that we have. But these are from what I gather (I've never been able to see 'a real live version' of Migne) in Greek & Latin. So a lot of this has never been translated into English.

I'm under the impression that there are more of St Augustine's works translated into English than any other Father. A sign of the active work Catholicism has devoted to its most revered Fathers. Compare this to us Orthodox for example when it comes to St John Chrysostom.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Kris]

A sign of the active work Catholicism has devoted to its most revered Fathers.

Not to mention the importance of St. Augustine for the Reformers such as Martin Luther and John Calvin. So it's certainly no surprise that the writings of St. Augustine are more abundant than those of other saints since one could ascribe to him the entirety of western Christianity.

[John Charmley]

Dear Fr. Raphael, Dear Kris,

It is good to have Kris' voice back here; what you both say about St. Augustine is very much to the point. I must confess to still being unable to find the original quotation; but I shall keep going.

On this theme of the 'limits of the Church', I was rather struck by some comments from the First Epistle to the Corinthians of St. Clement, who wrote:

Let us look steadfastly to the blood of Christ, and see how precious that blood is to God, which, having been shed for our salvation, has set the grace of repentance before the whole world. Let us turn to every age that has passed, and learn that, from generation to generation, the Lord has granted a place of repentance to all such as would be converted unto Him. Noah preached repentance, and as many as listened to him were saved. Jonah proclaimed destruction to the Ninevites; but they, repenting of their sins, propitiated God by prayer,and obtained salvation, although they were aliens [to the covenant] of God.

Irenaeus, in Against Heresies, Book 3, chapter 23, writes of Adam:

Therefore, when man has been liberated, “what is written shall come to pass, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy victory? O death, where is thy sting?” This could not be said with justice, if that man, over whom death did first obtain dominion, were not set free. For his salvation is death’s destruction. When therefore the Lord vivifies man, that is, Adam, death is at the same time destroyed.
8. All therefore speak falsely who disallow his (Adam’s) salvation,
shutting themselves out from life for ever, in that they do not believe that
the sheep which had perished has been found. For if it has not been found,
the whole human race is still held in a state of perdition.

These seem to point in the same direction as the original quotation from St. Augustine.

In Christ,

John