Is death the end?

[Demetrios]

When I read scripture I constantly get the idea that death is the end for a unrepentant sinner. I have bin contemplating this and can't seem to get away from feeling this way. I will give some reasons as to why I feel this way. First in the OT we know from scripture, sin leads to death. What exactly changed in the NT that this is not still a possiblity? In fact I would venture to say that the penilty for sin has become worse, in that now it includes eternal suffering.
Lets take this verse 20:6.
I see in this verse two deaths. The first death I see as baptism. When we are baptised we die to the body and take on a spiritual rebirth.
Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

Than we have quotes like this one.

John 5:24
"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.

Notice that it's called the book of life.
How does death and hades suffer in the lake of fire? There elements of creation. What I see is that they are sent to there end. How could elements suffer? If that's the case what happens to the people that are thrown into the lake. I see the same out come. That outcome is eternal end.


Revelation 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Basicly what I'm tring to say is that the second death is actually the first physical death and that everything inbetween is spritual. Is this making sense so far?

I'm also starting to think that hell was instatuted to bring people into the church that fear eternal damnation. I would like to hear your thoughts and ask if this fram of mind is unorthodox. Thanks.

BTW: I love this site. I have never seen any other Orthodox site as spirtual on the net.

[Tessa Miljanic]

I am not very well versed in Theology but I will tell you something I listened to before. It was a talk by (I think) Elder Ephraim, but translated by Kostas Zalalas, St. Nicodemos Society in PA.

There was this lady who was married and was really physically beautiful. She had a son and she became a widow at a young age, and because of her beauty, the Devil then lured her into a life of fornication. She became wealthy from this lifestyle and continued to live in sin, until she died.

When she died she left the money to her son who was really pious and became a monk. He felt bad at the state of his mother's soul when she died, so he kept none of the money and used it all for alms, so that maybe God would look upon this favourably and have mercy on the woman's soul.

This always troubled him, whether his prayers for her and the alms helped her or not. So he visited heysychast Elder who lived in a cave. The Elder who lived in a cave. The Elder had him stand in one place for three days, no food, no water, and hold vigil, while the Elder did the same in the cave.

After three days they came together again, both having recounted the exact same vision.

A horrible picture of hell-a lake of fire, rotten sulphur smell, and in the lake, the physical bodies of those tormented souls, including the man's mother who occasionally when her head was above the putrid liquid, called out for her son to help her. He put his hand in and was able to pull her up for a few moments, and that, was the prayers, fasting, vigil, and alms he had offered her. A few moments with her head out of the lake, a few moments of relief.

Anyway, his arm became withered and infected, and the putrid smell remained for the rest of his life to serves a reminder to nonbelievers of the reality of hell. The Elder gave him a piece of rassa to cover it. Since the Elder's garments were sweet smelling, he could mask the odor by keeping his arm covered.

So I think alms and prayers, ESPECIALLY the Prosphora offerings we make on the behalf of the reposed can help, as this way they Noetically Commune in the Blood of Christ.

Hope that helps.
Also read, "The Soul After Death", by Blessed Seraphim Rose if you already haven't.

In Christ,
Tessa

[Paul Cowan]

Dear Demetrios,

Please bear with my meager understanding.


When I read scripture I constantly get the idea that death is the end for a unrepentant sinner.

It may sound cold and cruel especially for an all-Loving God to act this way, but it is not He who chooses where we are to spend eternity. We and we alone decide if we want to be near Him or not. Many people these days feel ALL will be saved in the end. Christ never said this. This is a new way of thinking that makes even the worst of sinners think they don't have to worry about or even consider their salvation because in the end, God loves me too much to allow me to suffer in Hell. So since He is sooooo good, I don't have to repent and ask forgiveness or help the poor.

When we die, (physical death) we are under the general judgement. We are sent to Paradise or Hades depending on the lives we led or chose to lead. ie, in alms giving and helping the poor or licentious living or somewhere in between. God alone judges.

Upon the return of Christ, we are under the Final Judgement. From where we are in Paradise or Hades, our lives are laid bare for all to see and we are judged according to our deeds. Good or bad or in between. At this point we are sent to Heaven or Hell.

Our deeds on earth are what convict us. We cannot change our fate once we have physically died. It is by the grace of God alone that we may be saved. As the church fathers teach us, we are constantly being saved. We are not saved until the Final Judgement and God so chooses as even upon our death bed we might choose to renounce Him and lose salvation. So it is only upon His return and judgement that we will or will not be saved.

Prayers from loved ones may help him decide where to send us, but are not gauranteed. We cannot buy prayers to Him so as to save our dead friends and relatives. However, just as those that have died before us are alive with Him, they pray constantly for us before Him. As Christ says, in Matthew 22


31 But concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God, saying, 32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’?[a] God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.” 33 And when the multitudes heard this, they were astonished at His teaching.

We being pathetic humans cannot even pray for a moment without distraction and can only offer to those already dead pathetic prayers. So we ask those already there to pray for us as well as those we are praying for so they at least will pray continually before God on our behalf.

Do our prayers help the dead? who knows. Do they hurt? absolutely not. Only God in His grace and good pleasure will decide our fate in the end.


I'm also starting to think that hell was instatuted to bring people into the church that fear eternal damnation. I would like to hear your thoughts and ask if this fram of mind is unorthodox. Thanks.


To this I can only ask does it really matter? I don't agree with fear tactics in getting people to dump huge or even small amounts of money in a tv evangelists pockets, but if fire and brimstone will at least get people to look at their lives and consider a physical place called Hell and repentence, well, its a start. God alone will judge us. It is I alone who will decide to live good, bad or in between.

May He have mercy on me THE sinner.

Paul

[John Charmley]

Dear Brothers and Sister in Christ,


Fear God out of love for Him, and not for the reputation of austerity that has been attributed to Him. St. Issac the Syrian

Also from the same source:

By the strong an vehement mercy which grips His heart and by His great compassion, His heart is humbled and He cannot bear to hear or see any injury or slight sorrow in creation.

And also:

The man who chooses to consider God as avenger, presuming that in this manner He bears witness to His justice, the same accuses Him of being bereft of goodness. Far be it that vengeance could ever be found in that Fountain of love and Ocean brimming with goodness.

I have some trouble seeing the God envisioned here as the author of what is cited in post no. 2 in this thread. Those of us familiar with a certain type of Protestant preaching are all too familiar with this last vision of God.

In Christ,

John

[Nina]

Life after Death (http://www.orthodox.net/articles/life-after-death-john-maximovitch.html)

By Saint John Maximovitch

P.S Oh, and in addition to all the Saints (that Saint John Maximovitch enumerates in his article above) that speak about the afterlife and the struggles of the souls, and in addition to Saint Niphon of Konstantinople - that has such a life that I emerge from reading it full of awe for God and His divine justice, while trembling and having hope only on His mercy for my soul- I like another Saint's letter about such things as toll houses and etc. It is the letter of Saint Theophan the Recluse in his book The Spiritual Life and how to be attuned to it. He writes (pp.164-169) about Blessed Theodora and her journey through the toll-houses.

Saint Theophan writes about the toll-houses (twenty) and names them and the sins. Afterwards he states:

"Blessed Theodora encountered the same things which every soul encounters. The Apostle called the demons the principalities of the air. They are evil and obtrusive. Would they let a soul pass, when it is to ascend to the Divine Throne, without attempting to seize it or at least to disturb it with their terrors? [...] Do not desire to be worldly-wise, but take this story to heart, and undertake to correct all your imperfections in accordance with its teaching." pp. 168-169

All these are not to tell that God is not good, but to say that the Devil is interfering with our salvation (which is not a breaking news!). I heard once that 'the biggest lie of the devil is that he does not exist'. Victimized by this lie means to have a dormant conscience and not to play an active role in the strife for our salvation.

Since many Saints speak about the afterlife struggles of the soul, I prefer obedience to the Saints and to the admonition of Saint Theophan the Recluse "Do not desire to be worldly-wise, but take this story to heart[B]".

[Paul Cowan]

It's foolish to hope something not be true just because we (I) don't like it. If the toll houses are true and there are 20 rungs to the ladder (tollhouses/ sin examiners), and everything done in your life is examined to such a degree that even lies being told about it, how is anyone to be saved?

If I have forgotten small or great sins in this life and don't repent of them, according to this article, at the first sign of any unconfessed sin, I get thrown into hell. God is great and merciful. But if my family does not pray enough for me after I die and I have already been condemned for any unrepented sin, What chance do I THE sinner have to go to Heaven?

At what point does salvation get too unachievable? If the protestants believe solely the Bible which says "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved", perhaps too much knowledge is a bad thing? If I am held accountable for what I know to be true, how do I get saved? Have faith in Christ as a child, the Book says. Most protestants (and others) still can only handle milk. It seems to eat meat means to get closer to losing the possibility of salvation. Perhaps I should stay ignorant?

I am very distressed over this. Any suggestions are appreciated.

Paul

[John Charmley]

Dear Paul,

I am not surprised at your distress.

If you read Constantine Cavarnos' book Death and the Future Life According to Orthodox Teaching you'll find a more balanced view - which steers away from the quasi-gnosticism of those who take the idea literally rather than as an icon.

I find myself in full agreement with this comment made elsewhere on this site:

The angels who supposedly taught Saint Theodora about the toll houses informed her that the non-Orthodox don't even make it to the toll houses. Being non-Orthodox they are doomed anyway and are taken straight to hell. The angels also taught her a system of utilising the merits of others which can be applied to the soul going through the toll houses where it is short of enough merits of its own. It is redolent of Roman Catholicism's "merits of the Saints" and of indulgences.

Fr Seraphim Rose teaches that a man who is spiritually developed may see the toll houses operating in the air above his head.

It is these concrete teachings and others which make us non tollers recoil in horror and reject the whole theory.
That is from Hieromonk Ambrose, posted on 23 February 2006 and can be found at http://www.monachos.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1616&highlight=toll+houses&page=2

Our Lord told us what He thought was needful for us to know about what happened after death; those who say they know more might perhaps reflect on the duty of humility, and cease speculating about what is not to be known; not all 'visions' are of God.

In Christ,

John

[Nina]

It's foolish to hope something not be true just because we (I) don't like it. If the toll houses are true and there are 20 rungs to the ladder (tollhouses/ sin examiners), and everything done in your life is examined to such a degree that even lies being told about it, how is anyone to be saved?

That is what we should mostly hope for dear Paul: the endless mercy of our God and pray to God to give us humility. If we think that our deeds can justify us at that very second we loose humility. And yes in the Service of Burial/Memorial there is a verse (like you express yourself above) "how can anyone be saved o Lord?" And the pleading for His mercy is made.


If I have forgotten small or great sins in this life and don't repent of them, according to this article, at the first sign of any unconfessed sin, I get thrown into hell.

That is why the priest during the Services for the departed prays to forgive all the deeds of the departed. Known and unknown (those made in ignorance etc)


God is great and merciful. But if my family does not pray enough for me after I die and I have already been condemned for any unrepented sin, What chance do I THE sinner have to go to Heaven?

We should not loose hope in His mercy ever but also think that we are not worthy of Heaven because of our sins. All Saints and Fathers of our Church recommend and urge these two duties for us.


At what point does salvation get too unachievable? If the protestants believe solely the Bible which says "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved", perhaps too much knowledge is a bad thing?

I am sorry, but Fathers and Saints above did not write those for the Protestants (who is the Protestant here by the way?) and neither did I post it for them.


If I am held accountable for what I know to be true, how do I get saved? Have faith in Christ as a child, the Book says. Most protestants (and others) still can only handle milk. It seems to eat meat means to get closer to losing the possibility of salvation. Perhaps I should stay ignorant?

That is up to the personal choice and the spiritual father directions for you in your specific case.

[Antonios]

Dear Paul,

Whether there are 20 toll-houses, 10 collection agencies, or one federal court case, if you have faith in God, He will always die on the Cross for you. Complete faith in His power, His love, and His mercy. Faith that even when you feel like a million light years away from Him, you still firmly believe He is next to you, near you, within you, awaiting you to turn to Him and be healed. To embrace you in a fatherly embrace. To share with you the Kingdom of Heaven.

Don't be too distressed over this, Paul. The answer to your question "At what point does salvation get too unachievable?" is not what you should stay concentrated on. Thinking like this will only get you frustrated and tired. You are, after all putting limits on God, and that can be a tiring experience! Rather, ask yourself "Lord, how is it you love me this much, I who have done everything wrong? Lord, teach me to love this way!"

[Paul Cowan]

Dear John,

Thank you for responding.


Our Lord told us what He thought was needful for us to know about what happened after death; those who say they know more might perhaps reflect on the duty of humility, and cease speculating about what is not to be known; not all 'visions' are of God.


Looking at the article from post 5 which is on a prominent Russian Orthodox church website in Dallas, it mentions virtually every Father of the church in agreement with this theory. Is it theory or is it fact? I guess I can ask the same about evolution and get definitive answers from both sides.

I know the gate is narrow and I know Christ is the Way and I know even if I repent of every little thing I have done, the deck is stacked so much against me there is no way in hell (forgive the pun) I will make it in to Heaven. Based on this theory.

I am not a quitter, I am a procrastinator. But if the Theotokos had to have Christ Himself walk her through the tollhouses, What is the point? Who is greater than She? If these are not visions from God, how much credence do I now put into the early church Fathers?

Please forgive my insecurity here. I do not mean to cause others to question the faith. I just have questions. I try to accept what is told even if I am told it is a mystery. But we are also told to test the spirits. And I assume that means each other as well.

Paul

[Nina]

Saint John Klimakos:
"Do not be surprised that you fall every day; do not give up, but stand your ground courageously. And assuredly, the angel who guards you will honor your patience."


Dear John,
If these are not visions from God, how much credence do I now put into the early church Fathers?
Paul

Dear Paul,
I agree with you and I have to say that I received the same vibe from the post (and I would like to ask John, to please clarify what he means with that portion of his post, because those mentioned in the article are Saints of our Orthodox Church), but we are not worthy to question our Saints and Holy Fathers and call their teachings speculations. It is unimaginable!

If there are people who have made it to Heaven, those are our Saints and Holy Fathers; thus we should listen to their advise and ask fervently for their intercessions. When preparing for vacation we look for the best guide book there is from an authoritative source. I think the best authoritative guide to Heaven after Christ's teachings, are the teachings of the Holy Fathers and Saints. If we question them, this site should not exist. As St. Makarios the Great has said: "The souls of the righteous become heavenly lights, as the Lord Himself told His apostles, 'You are the lights of the world'. It was He who first transformed them in light, that through them He might enlighten the cosmos." Truly as St. Makarios says, Christ transformed Saints in light to enlighten us! Why would God inspire the Apostles and Saints with the Holy Spirit, if He did not wish us to know more?

Of course we rely completely on God's endless love, but as you mention His words about the camel were said straightforward to the rich man. He did not hide the truth (because of His immense love) but He enlightened us (through the camel's analogy about the great difficulty of certain souls to go to His Kingdom) and the same happens with his Saints, who speak the truth openly to us without sugarcoating it, because they love us and want to pull us also into the Kingdom of our Heavenly Father. This truth causes our awe and fear; which turns out to be very spiritually profitable. As St Isaac the Syrian says fear causes us to love God and repent: "As it is not possible to cross over the great ocean without a ship, so none can attain to love without fear. This filthy sea, which lies between us and the paradise of the heart, we may cross by the boat of repentance, whose oarsmen are those of fear. But if fear's oarsmen do not pilot the boat of repentance whereby we cross over the sea of this world to God, we shall be drowned in the sordid abyss." (Of course many Saints have attained love and do not fear, but that is for loftier states of spirituality- and as we read from Saint Isaac, fear leads to love).

We notice that repentance is a key together with humility etc. and we are to rely only on God's love and mercy to save us. As you can see from the words of Saint Paisius Velichkovsky even angelic creatures have fear and tremble (and they do not even sin!) and give praise to the Lord: "Remember, O my soul, the terrible and frightful wonder: that your Creator for your sake became Man, and deigned to suffer for the sake of your salvation. His angels tremble, the Cherubim are terrified, the Seraphim are in fear, and all the heavenly powers ceaselessly give praise; and you, unfortunate soul, remain in laziness. At least from this time forth arise and do not put off, my beloved soul, holy repentance, contrition of heart and penance for your sins."

Emphasizing repentance, prayers, fasting etc. our beloved Saint Theophan the Recluse concludes his story about the toll houses thus:"How is one to be? For our great comfort the tears of repentance along with repentant deeds, especially that of almsgiving, wash away all sins. Blessed Theodora saw many times how the demons would bring scrolls in which her sins were recorded and when they would unroll these scrolls to expose her, there would be nothing inside. When she asked the angels who attended her why this was so, they explained to her that when somebody sincerely repents of his sins, fasts, prays, and does merciful deeds, his sins are washed away." pp. 168-169 The Spiritual Life and how to be attuned to it

*All quotes in this post (beside Saint Theophan's) are taken from Monachos.net.

[John Charmley]

Dear Paul,

Do read the Cavarnos book, it will help; he explains what the Church has always taught on this matter; the whole toll-house thing is rather like the way the Catholics deal with the real presence of Our Lord in the elements of the Eucharist - a piece of Orthodox scholasticism, if you like (and many do not). There is much dispute about this question, and to accept it in the way some do is to accept something which is not necessarily Orthodox.

That is why one asks questions, not of the Saints and Fathers, but of those who purport to interpret their words in a particular way. We do well to remember that there were times in the early Church when an heretic such as Arius seemed to be getting his way and gaining acceptance - there were plenty then who attacked those who questioned him by saying things like
we are not worthy to question our Saints and Holy Fathers and call their teachings speculations. It is unimaginable! What is 'unimaginable' is our not using what God has given us in His service. There seems a good healthy dose of such questioning within the Orthodox Church - I can hardly move on some sites without finding the poor old EP assailed from all sides.

I would stress that what is being questioned is the modern interpretation of traditional teaching - still, there are always some attached to novel ways of looking at ancient truths, and we must always remember that.

Our Lord told us what was needful; if it had been necessary to tell us more, He would have done so. We know what we must do to be saved. As He told Martha in John 11:25-26:

25 Jesus said to her, I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live.
26 And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?
I am also mindful of what He said in Matthew 18:6:

6 But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to sin, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
And those who go in for the full elaborate quasi-Gnosticism of the modern version of the toll-houses might also bear this in mind. I find it sad in the extreme that someone such as yourself, trying to live the Christian life and walk in His way, stumbling as we all do, but getting up and trying again (as so many do not) should find his conscience worried by such teachings.

Just keep doing what He tells you, as the Church has always taught, and seek guidance from your priest - and all will be well, and all manner of things will be well.

In Christ,

John

[Nina]

We do well to remember that there were times in the early Church when an heretic such as Arius seemed to be getting his way and gaining acceptance - there were plenty then who attacked those who questioned him by saying things like
but we are not worthy to question our Saints and Holy Fathers and call their teachings speculations. It is unimaginable!


Dear John,

Don't you think there is a broken link in the above logic? Arius was not a Saint or Father of the Church. I am speaking about Saints and Fathers (who are already in Heaven and recognized as such by our Church).


I would stress that what is being questioned is the modern interpretation of traditional teaching - still, there are always some attached to novel ways of looking at ancient truths, and we must always remember that.Since you seem to appreciate Professor Cavarnos and suggest to Paul to read his book; may I suggest to you also to read something from Prof. Cavarnos (?): Orthodox Tradition and Modernism. You may find it here (http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/modernism.pdf).


Our Lord told us what was needful; if it had been necessary to tell us more, He would have done so. We know what we must do to be saved.Are you denying the Holy Spirit He sent to Apostles and the succession of it and the inspiration to our Saints? Christ promised the Holy Spirit before His Divine Ascension (we should not disregard that).



And those who go in for the full elaborate quasi-Gnosticism of the modern version of the toll-houses might also bear this in mind. Are you saying this for the Saints enumerated above?

[John Charmley]

Dear Nina,

what I am saying is that Orthodox commentators have taken varying views on this, and that some have found the more modern version of this idea to be quasi-gnostic.

If you follow the references in the Toll House thread you'll see how this has been discussed here before.

In Christ,

John

[Nina]

Dear Nina,

what I am saying is that Orthodox commentators have taken varying views on this, and that some have found the more modern version of this idea to be quasi-gnostic.

If you follow the references in the Toll House thread you'll see how this has been discussed here before.

In Christ,

John

Dear John,

Thank you for pointing me to the thread of Toll Houses. I do not have time to read it all right now (I will later because it is interesting), but after a glance at the first page I would say that I agree with Hieromonk Averky's (of blessed memory), Father Moser's and Dr. Steenberg's posts. And I see them in the same line with the article above by St. John Maximovitch (and the Saints he quotes) and of the other Saints above that speak about this matter.

No Saint and none here said that toll houses are built by cement, or postcards, or tapestry etc. All what Saints here say and the core of the disscusion here is that the demons rush to steal away from angels the soul of a human after death (what Hieromonk Averky also says in the thread you pointed out) by accusing the soul of all the sins, the person committed; they even try to accuse people of their good deeds.

As long as there is accusation, there is need for awareness about it; also for prayer supplicating incessantly the mercy of God; there is need for our repentance etc. This is what my posts were about.

Accusation from the Devil happens even when we are still here (as we know from the story of Holy and long- suffering Job). Regardless of where the accusation happens, it does happen and we must prepare by what Saints above say and by praying to God for His mercy. This is the point.

We must prepare, because God's love is infinite: for His sake we must prepare. From the story of the lady and the onion bulb from Dostoyevsky's Brothers Karamazov, we will understand that if we do not play an active role in our salvation during our life here, even if God's infinite love and mercy interfere after death to save us, still our deeds will not allow it because we do not pertain, or belong where all the righteous are. God will judge at the end, however we should follow the advise of Christ and the Saints and prepare and struggle here. Saint Niphon of Konstantinople also tells us what he saw during the vision he had from the Last Judgement:

"As soon as the Judge voiced that decision, at once an enormous fiery river spilled over from the east and went rolling violently towards the west. It was broad like a big sea. When the sinners on the left saw it they were very stunned and began to tremble frightfully in their despair. But the impartial Judge ordered everyone - just and unjust [underline mine]- to pass through the flaming river, so that the fire could try them. The ones at His right hand started first. They crossed and came out like solid gold. Their deeds did not burn, but instead proved to be brighter and clearer with the test. That's why they were filled with joy." ... pp. 67-68 From the book Stories, Sermons, and Prayers of St. Nephon: An Ascetic Bishop

P.S You may find the story of Dostoyevsky here (http://www.bibliomania.com/0/0/235/1030/17192/1/frameset.html)or please read it below:

"Once upon a time there was a peasant woman and a very wicked woman she was. And she died and did not leave a single good deed behind. The devils caught her and plunged her into the lake of fire. So her guardian angel stood and wondered what good deed of hers he could remember to tell to God; ‘she once pulled up an onion in her garden,’ said he, ‘and gave it to a beggar woman.’ And God answered: ‘You take that onion then, hold it out to her in the lake, and let her take hold and be pulled out. And if you can pull her out of the lake, let her come to Paradise, but if the onion breaks, then the woman must stay where she is.’ The angel ran to the woman and held out the onion to her; ‘Come,’ said he, ‘catch hold and I’ll pull you out.’ And he began cautiously pulling her out. He had just pulled her right out, when the other sinners in the lake, seeing how she was being drawn out, began catching hold of her so as to be pulled out with her. But she was a very wicked woman and she began kicking them. ‘I’m to be pulled out, not you. It’s my onion, not yours.’ As soon as she said that, the onion broke. And the woman fell into the lake and she is burning there to this day. So the angel wept and went away."

[John Charmley]

Dear Nina,

I do not think we are disagreeing about what happens in general terms; my comments were meant to apply very specifically to some of the more modern views on toll houses; they are a controversial topic, and I too find myself rather in agreement with what Matthew Steenberg says on the topic.

In Christ,

John

[Nina]

Dear Nina,

I do not think we are disagreeing about what happens in general terms; my comments were meant to apply very specifically to some of the more modern views on toll houses; they are a controversial topic, and I too find myself rather in agreement with what Matthew Steenberg says on the topic.

In Christ,

John

Excuse me, dear John, but where did you see any modern views expressed in my words here? Please tell me. All the Saints and Fathers I mention in this thread are from past times!

[Kornelius]

Do read the Cavarnos book, it will help; he explains what the Church has always taught on this matter; the whole toll-house thing is rather like the way the Catholics deal with the real presence of Our Lord in the elements of the Eucharist - a piece of Orthodox scholasticism, if you like (and many do not). There is much dispute about this question, and to accept it in the way some do is to accept something which is not necessarily Orthodox.

Dear John,

The Orthodox Church different from the Catholic Church has never suffered from scholasticism. She always has maintained her mystical nature, and out of divine humility she or her saints have never endeavored to explain and rationalize every angle (from a human/ logical perspective) of spiritual subjects that are not relevant to our salvation. In a way this "humble ambiguity" if you will, is our testament of humility to Christ, exclaiming that there are certain aspects of God that will remain forever a mystery, both in this life and in the one to come, and these aspect are known to God alone.

The toll-houses, therefore, are not scholastic ways to deal with judgment after death. Neither are they modern interpretations of ancient truths, but a reality lived and attested by saints of our orthodox church (St. Theophan the Recluse being one of them as you may see at Nina's post).

You say that there are orthodox commentators who share your opinion and believe that such teachings are quasi-Gnosticit. An orthodox commentator is not a saint per se. A commentator is not a theologian per se. His teaching may be liberal and flawed, for various reasons. The main reason would be a disconnection between writing about faith and living the faith. A true theologian is the one who lives the Word of God and whose nous has been consequently illumined by the uncreated energies of Christ. Therefore, only saints - for whom theology and its application are one and the same - are the true theologians. By no means are we to exclude our orthodox writers, but we cannot hold them higher than our saints.


Our Lord told us what was needful; if it had been necessary to tell us more, He would have done so. We know what we must do to be saved.

Are you saying that whatever is not in the New Testament, but instead is in the canons, dogmas and teachings of our church is not relevant to salvation? Our faith is build upon two pillars, namely scripture and tradition. If we throw away our tradition, than we are theologically speaking no better than most protestants who base their entire faith upon scripture and have obliterated tradition. This is not just spiritually wrong but it is an oxymoron, for the scripture itself emerged from tradition. The New Testament did not fall from the skies, but was writen by saints, and the four gospels were selected out of many gospels (synods/tradition) again by saints under the guidance and inspiration of the Holy Spirit.



Just keep doing what He tells you, as the Church has always taught, and seek guidance from your priest - and all will be well, and all manner of things will be well.

Now you admit yourself that one must also do what the Church has always taught. Well, the saints are part of the church, so I guess now you have to heed more to this description of the after-life journey.

We mentioned previously that one reason for such distrust in toll-houses has to do with disinformation. The other reason, I believe, it is due to a reasoning process called "double-thinking." Let me explain what that means. Often times the reality we face in our lives or after-life is so frightening that we convince ourselves that it does not exist. Deep inside we feel its frightening presence, but out of discomfort and sheer convenience we build walls around it and convince ourselves of its non-existence.

Unfortunately my friend the reality is frightening and if we love one another we must not escape in double-thinking but say it as it is. Geronda Porphirios, a recent holy man from Mount Athos used to cry and say that people who enter heavens in this day and age are as rare as the few remaining leaves on a tree during winter.

Lastly, I would like to comment on the nature of death and Hades or hell, as per Demetrios confusion who asks: "How does death and hades suffer in the lake of fire? There elements of creation. What I see is that they are sent to there end. How could elements suffer?

Well, Demetrios the answer is very simple. Neither death nor Hades are elements of creation. God did not create them. Death entered violently into creation and received its existence from us and from our sin not from God. Everything God creates is good. Nothing that is evil originates from God.

[John Charmley]

Dear Nina, dear Kornelius,

My references were simply to the fact that this issue has been quite a cause for argument within the Orthodox Church - something reflected elsewhere on this site.

Of course what the saints have said is accepted by me - and it would not matter (except to my discredit and shame) if it were not. But there have been interpretations attached to these traditional teachings which have been controversial; it was these which caused my concern.

In Christ,

John

[Nina]

Dear Nina, dear Kornelius,

Of course what the saints have said is accepted by me - and it would not matter (except to my discredit and shame) if it were not.

In Christ,

John

Dear John,

Please know that (I am sure that Kornelius thinks the same) we are not here to discredit, or shame you (God please forbid! I am blushing just writing to assure you about it...) because we love you. That is why we are taking the time to write and acknowledge you.

But as Kornelius has mentioned I was not speaking about any modern trends, or interpretations (I love the Saints and Fathers too much to go to secondary sources before going to them-if I have access to the pure and refreshing water of the water source, why go down the river for water supply?), just about what Saints and Fathers of Orthodoxy say. I am a simple human that needs to cling to the teachings of the Church and follow them (like an infant that clings to her mother - because I am so weak and I will be completely lost without the Church's teachings) while hoping in God's mercy and love.

Dear Kornelius,

Thank you for your time and explanation! You clarified so many things for me.

When you spoke about the "double-thinking" phenomenon, you reminded me of a couple of female friends of mine, who told me that after they watched a movie called "Blood Diamond" (I have not seen it) for the first days after it they could not wear their diamond (engagement) rings. After sometime passed, they resumed wearing them. You are so right about the observation about the "reasoning process" and indeed, it is a characteristic of human nature that manifests itself not only in spiritual matters.

[John Charmley]

Dear Nina,

You remind me to read more of the Fathers and less modern theology! Thank you.

In Christ,

John

[Paul Cowan]

Dear All,

I have just read the Toll Houses thread. I recommend it. I was particularily attracted to post #44. I hope I did the hyperlink right.

Looking at this from post #33 of the same thread

The 20 laws or commandments (toll houses) mentioned before are those reserved for those who heard the Word of God but did not keep it. Those who did not accept the mercy of God who thought that the Law could save them. "Therefore they (the demons) shall be your judges." Says Christ. Matthew 12:27 bold mine

The 20 (demonic) Toll Houses

1) Idle talking & foul language
2) Lying
3) Judging & slandering
4) Gluttony & Drunkenness
5) Laziness
6) Stealing
7) Greed for money & stinginess
8) Extortion & bribery
9) Falsehood & Vanity
10) Envy
11) Pride
12) Anger
13) Enmity (remembering of wrongs)
14) Robbery
15) Magic & Foretune telling
16) Fornication
17) Adultery
18) Sodomy
19) Idol worship
20) Unmercifulness & hardheartedness



I am not as stressed out today as yesterday over this. Perhaps I should be. Looking at the list, I am so not going to get there. So, I will do what I can do and be judged accordingly. If I make it great. If not, I tried.

This is not hiding my head in the sand. It is realizing I can do nothing apart from Christ who strengthens me. If I cannot even raise my foot to rung #1, there is no way I will make it to #20.

So, I pray. I ask for your prayers and I go to church for confession more often.

Paul

[Tessa Miljanic]

Some Orthodox friends of ours were over once for a barbecue. I don't want to offend anybody, but I heard the funniest, and yet most sublime joke I ever heard in my life. Please nobody take offense.

WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN PROTESTANTS AND ORTHODOX CHRISTIANS?

PROTESTANTS NO MATTER WHAT THEY DO ARE SURE THEY ARE GOING TO HEAVEN.

ORTHODOX NO MATTER HOW MUCH THEY STRUGGLE, EVEN UNTIL DEATH, THINK THEY ARE STILL GOING TO HELL.

~Tessa

[Mike O'Grady]

It sounds lie what's being discussed here is soul sleep, which the SDA and JW believe in.

According to them, people die, then "sleep" until the judgment, (they quote a verse of Scripture that says the dead know nothing), then at the judgment they either go to eternity in heaven or are tossed into the Lake of Fire and no longer exist.