How to refer to the Mother of God

[Nina]

Also, doesn't this cause a problem if you believe Mary was morally pure from birth, since Mary also reached an age of accountability and therefore her inclination to sin would have been realized?

Pardon me, but who is Mary?

[M. Markewich]

Pardon me, but who is Mary?
Hello, Nina. I was referring to the Theotokos.

[M.C. Steenberg]

Pardon me, but who is Mary?


Hello, Nina. I was referring to the Theotokos.

I think it was quite clear which Mary was being referred to.

It's become a pious internet trend to insist that Orthodox people never refer to 'Mary' but only 'Theotokos'. This isn't the case, at least from a patristic orientation. The mother of God is always to be referred to respectfully, and in iconographic or titular representation always by her Christological title, Theotokos, 'God-bearer' (or this in conjunction with the additional qualifier, 'ever-virgin'). But in discussion and theological writing, referring to her as simply 'Mary' is a very ancient Orthodox custom.

As a few examples see the usage of Sts Irenaeus, Ambrose, Igantius of Antioch, Cyril of Jerusalem, Gregory of Nyssa -- etc.

INXC, Matthew

[Nina]

I think it was quite clear which Mary was being referred to.

It's become a pious internet trend to insist that Orthodox people never refer to 'Mary' but only 'Theotokos'. This isn't the case, at least from a patristic orientation. The mother of God is always to be referred to respectfully, and in iconographic or titular representation always by her Christological title, Theotokos, 'God-bearer' (or this in conjunction with the additional qualifier, 'ever-virgin'). But in discussion and theological writing, referring to her as simply 'Mary' is a very ancient Orthodox custom.

As a few examples see the usage of Sts Irenaeus, Ambrose, Igantius of Antioch, Cyril of Jerusalem, Gregory of Nyssa -- etc.

INXC, Matthew

You are right that it is quite clear, but sometime we have to stop and think about Whom we are talking.

One would never address a queen by her name only. Even more so the Queen of All.

Excuse me, but this was pointed out to me by a very knowledgeable and wonderful nun, from the Kareas monastery in Athens, whom I respect and think of as a very spiritual person. It never hurts to listen to the advise of those who are more spiritually experienced.

Thank you for mentioning the Fathers and the Saints. Personally as long as I am not one of them, I will continue to refer Her as Panagia, Virgin Mary, Theotokos etc.

[M.C. Steenberg]

Alas, we've returned to this tone.

One up-side to this turn in the topic was that it caused me this afternoon to unearth a folder of older correspondence, where I've kept a letter written to me by a dear father of the Holy Mountain some years ago. Here is a brief excerpt of his letter:


"My dear Matthew, learn to speak of our Lady with true reverence, reverence of the heart and your whole being. In every mention of her in your past letters she is 'Our Panagia, the Ever-Virgin Theotokos'. Well! Truly it is so, and amen! But learn too to call her tenderly 'Mary', for her name is precious in its majesty. She is a real person, my beloved friend, with a real name. Never be casual with it. Never defame it. Learn to love it, and use it in love and humility."

'And humility'. We ought to think of that in particular this Lent.

INXC, Matthew

[Nina]

Alas, we've returned to this tone.

One up-side to this turn in the topic was that it caused me this afternoon to unearth a folder of older correspondence, where I've kept a letter written to me by a dear father of the Holy Mountain some years ago. Here is a brief excerpt of his letter:


"My dear Matthew, learn to speak of our Lady with true reverence, reverence of the heart and your whole being. In every mention of her in your past letters she is 'Our Panagia, the Ever-Virgin Theotokos'. Well! Truly it is so, and amen! But learn too to call her tenderly 'Mary', for her name is precious in its majesty. She is a real person, my beloved friend, with a real name. Never be casual with it. Never defame it. Learn to love it, and use it in love and humility."

'And humility'. We ought to think of that in particular this Lent.

INXC, Matthew

It pleases me to see that we are debating out of our love for Her! That is important.

P.S And you are right I am not humble at all. So please pray for me. :)

[John Charmley]

Dear Matthew, Dear Nina,

Having just returned from a wonderful day at Walsingham ('England's Nazareth'), which included a lecture from Bishop Kallistos on the theme of 'Mary', this set of postings naturally caught my eye.

As many of you will know, Walsingham is so dedicated to the Most Holy Theotokos that there are times when it seems as though the Anglicans there have taken on the Roman custom of referring to her as out 'co-redemptrix'; but as +Kallistos reminded us, in a wonderful talk on St. Nicholas Cabasilas, that is to take out of context his language of reverence, which, when done, can indeed make him sound almost like a Catholic counter-Reformation theologian; a reminder to us all that the simple and reverent use of St. Mary's name (and to the Copts she is often St. Mary) can sometimes avoid the misunderstandings that our (quite understandable and laudable) desire to give her all honour can cause.

That hardly does justice to an excellent lecture, but it was a point that stood out looking at this exchange. The advice from the Athonite Father goes toward the same point. St. Mary, Mary the mother of God, is a model to us all of how human beings can be; it is little wonder that the Romans should have taken this as far as the notion of the Immaculate Conception, So perfect was her obedience to His will that it might almost have seemed as though she was free of the taint of sin. So, how natural that all Orthodox Christians should wish to show her such veneration. But we always avoid the extremes, and we do not worship her but her Son.

I hope this makes some sense. A day of wonder at Walsingham surrounded by pilgrims and images of the Theotokos, amidst the sharp spring light of a sunny day with the daffodils in bloom, and the finding of an icon of St. Cyril of Alexandria - and a talk from +Kallistos - might well have been more than my system can quite handle at this stage of Lent. A candle was lit for Monachos and its members at the Orthodox chapel, with a suitable prayer - and a blessing from a Russian Orthodox priest, Fr. Stephen, whose holiness shone like a light around him.

What a day.

In Christ,

John

In Christ

[Nina]

Dear Matthew, Dear Nina,
But we always avoid the extremes, and we do not worship her but her Son.
In Christ,

John

In Christ

LOL To be respectful does not mean worship! :)

When I say Prof. John, or Dr. Matthew does not mean I worship you.

I was thinking about this and maybe it is a cultural difference; an issue seen from a different perspective. I was brought up to be very proper. My grandmother always reprimanded us grandchildren -when young- if she heard us address adults without Mr./Mrs. or uncle/auntie etc. She used to say "You did not cut his/her umbilical cord! Use the manners taught to you and address adults by the appropriate appellations!" So my background is not that casual. I would never address my parents by their first name only. And since Virgin Mary is our Mother, She is entitled to my respect and honor!

[John Charmley]

Dear Nina,

I think there is very much in what you say. Here in the west things have become much more casual. When I started teaching we addressed our students as 'Mr.' and 'Miss', and they addressed us as 'Dr.' or 'Professor', even as we would write each other notes beginning 'Dear Charmley' or 'Dear Smith' - now we get an e mail saying (if we are lucky) 'hi'. So your point about honour in this context is well-made and well-taken.

My point about 'honour' not 'worship' came out of the very specific context of where I was yesterday. If you follow this link http://www.walsingham.org.uk/ you will get an idea. One of the pilgrims I met was clearly under the impression that the other pilgrims were worshipping the Blessed and Holy Theotokos, and it was not until I listened to +Kallistos' lecture later that I realised how that impression had been created.

It suggests room for both in context: in the everyday bustle, it is good to pay honour and offer veneration (I came away from Walsingham feeling refreshed and renewed, and with my veneration for her deepened); but in a context where suspicions of Mariolatary might arise, it is good to remember the pure and humble Palestinian maiden who placed her life in the hands of God, and stands as a pattern for all humanity. There was a moment, as the Bishop was speaking when I looked at one of the icons of (as they term her there) Our Lady of Walsingham, and suddenly, without words, understood how she is 'the second Eve'.

Totally trusting, she did His bidding, bore and nourished Our Saviour, was there at the start and end of His earthly ministry, and stood there on Gethsemene, and never, even then, questioned His will or even complained. The notion that humanity is capable of that stuns me - and I pray for her intercession for us all, that we may take her as a pattern for our lives. 'Pray for us sinners now, and at the hour of our death.'

In Christ,

John

[Nina]

Dear Nina,

I think there is very much in what you say. Here in the west things have become much more casual. When I started teaching we addressed our students as 'Mr.' and 'Miss', and they addressed us as 'Dr.' or 'Professor', even as we would write each other notes beginning 'Dear Charmley' or 'Dear Smith' - now we get an e mail saying (if we are lucky) 'hi'. So your point about honour in this context is well-made and well-taken.

Yes. When I first took classes here I was stunned (to the point of a culture shock) at the classroom behavior of some students. Some ate and drank while the professor was talking to them; some raised their feet way up; some came and went in the class without excusing themselves; some came in the class with their pajamas on; and some completely ignored the professors. I was very surprised because those are some of the best schools in the world and we are so fortunate to have so wonderful and brilliant professors. Teachers are very respected along with parents, and priests in my culture.
P.S Not everyone is like that. Some of my classmates have very polished manners. Most of my professors address us with Ms. and Mr.
P.S.S Concerning "Dear" I would not write it, if I do not really feel it (except in an official letter because of the norm).


My point about 'honour' not 'worship' came out of the very specific context of where I was yesterday. If you follow this link http://www.walsingham.org.uk/ you will get an idea. One of the pilgrims I met was clearly under the impression that the other pilgrims were worshipping the Blessed and Holy Theotokos, and it was not until I listened to +Kallistos' lecture later that I realised how that impression had been created.

I understand what you point out, however my connection to Panagia comes from my family. Some of my great-grandparents were from the City, and they were so connected to Her (you know that the Akathist comes from there). In those horrible, difficult times they had literally no refuge other than Panagia. The veneration and love for Her is a nature to us. We do not worship Her. She is our Mother. And again why would we address a priest with the title Father, or a nun with the title Sister, or an archbishop as 'Your Beatitude'. When we are so courteous with one another, why not apply the same manners when it comes to the Virgin Mary. As the Athonite Father, that Matthew mentions above, said "she is a real person" like the priest in our church, like the nun sitting next to us for whom we use the appropriate titles when talking to them. Even this site asks for our titles when registering.


but in a context where suspicions of Mariolatary might arise, it is good to remember the pure and humble Palestinian maiden who placed her life in the hands of God, and stands as a pattern for all humanity.

???? She was Jewish.


There was a moment, as the Bishop was speaking when I looked at one of the icons of (as they term her there) Our Lady of Walsingham, and suddenly, without words, understood how she is 'the second Eve'.

Please correct me if I am wrong, but isn't it 'the new Eve'? I do not think She comes second to any woman.


The notion that humanity is capable of that stuns me - and I pray for her intercession for us all, that we may take her as a pattern for our lives. 'Pray for us sinners now, and at the hour of our death.'

In Christ,

John

Yes exactly! What humanity achieved through Her! Thus titles are deserving. Such as titles for a Dr. who accomplished his PhD, or the title for a priest, who gives himself to God and achieves what not the rest of us have etc. Even more so titles and respect about Her, Who achieved what no other woman did.

[John Charmley]

Dear Nina,

You are, of course, quite correct, it should be 'new Eve' - and on her Jewishness; I suspect I am spending too much time on Palestinian history at the moment (writing about the 19th century).

As to the honour we pay her, how right you are.

It is a shame that as a society we have become quite so casual; thank goodness that is not true for the Church.

In Christ,

John

[M. Markewich]

Nina, I think your mention of priests makes a good point. I would never refer to my priest without Father in front. It might be best to at least have Saint in front if I am going to refer to Saint Mary. Thanks.

[Nina]

Nina, I think your mention of priests makes a good point. I would never refer to my priest without Father in front. It might be best to at least have Saint in front if I am going to refer to Saint Mary. Thanks.

Dear Matt,

Thank you for being so understanding!

I am grateful to the nun that corrected and taught me about this too! I remember that she also pointed out that the term Saint is not sufficient either. First, to avoid confusion because there are several other Saints by the name of Mary. Second, to indicate the superiority of the Mother of God vis-à-vis all the other Saints. Hence the reason we call Her Panagia: Pan=All and Agia=Saint.

With love in Christ,
Nina

[Peter Farrington]

I usually always refer to the Most Holy, Most Pure, Most Blessed and Glorious Lady Mary, Ever-Virgin and Mother of God.

But she is also my elder sister and foster-mother, a much loved older and wiser and more wonderful member of the family of God, of which I am a most junior and badly behaved member.

But she is my sister, and I would never want to forget that by heaping up title upon title upon title.

She is my dearly beloved spiritual mother, Mary, as well as all the other titles that we use.

If I call her beloved Mary in my prayers sometimes it does not reflect a lack of respect for her. She knows how much I love her and does not need all the titles, however much I sometimes do.

Let us not judge one another merely over the titles we use with the saints whom we love. It is a pointless exercise. Our holy mother would prefer that we all turned to her in our need, with love, rather than argue about who has the most respect for her.

Peter