Special needs children in the Church [Archive] - Monachos.net Discussion Community

Father Anthony

11-04-2007, 02:00 AM

Christ is Risen!

Hopefully, I am putting this thread in the right section, if not I asked the moderator to relocate it to the right section/forum.

I have been asked to prepare a presentation on Special Needs Children in the Family of the Orthodox Churchin the latter part of May. I have googled the topic in various ways and then checked also the databases of the various official church websites. Unfortunately, only a few articles on the topic exist. That leads me to ask, as a church have we been ignoring this segment of our faithful and their families?

Are there any ways that local parishes, dioceses, or churches have effected to reach out to them. If so I would be interested in hearing of any parish outreach or formalized ways of reaching this segment of our church population and their families.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+

Paul Cowan

11-04-2007, 04:09 AM

Fr. Anthony bless:

One of my priests daughters is autistic. She is loved and watched over by the entire congregation when she is around. It was this way even before he was our priest.

Our Sr. priest has a son with extreme speech challenges. He also is loved and watched over by the parish.

I don't know that the church does not take care of its challenged children. The fact not much is written about may point to the fact there is not much of a problem with it. I have never witnessed any child being neglected by any member of the church. On the contrary. Adults go out of their way to pay great attention to the little ones and their families.

Paul

Trudy

11-04-2007, 04:26 AM

Christ is Risen!
Are there any ways that local parishes, dioceses, or churches have effected to reach out to them. If so I would be interested in hearing of any parish outreach or formalized ways of reaching this segment of our church population and their families.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+

Dear Fr. Anthony, bless:

Indeed He is Risen!!

We have a special needs young lady in our parish. She is 26 years of age but according to her Mother has reached only the age of 6 in mental development. As I am the Sunday school teacher, she asked if her daughter could attend since repetition and participation are the things that help her learn. Of course, I gave a resounding, "YES!" along with our priest!

What a delight she is! Loving (her hugs are wonderful!), devoted to God, and participates with great enthusiasm. Our class is a "one room school-house" so I try to work both ends against the middle. Thus I may ask challenging questions but accept "easy" answers. More often than not, Mary's hand is up with the answer before her "older" compadres! And more often than not, her answer is spot on and spurs some good dialogue with the rest of the students. The students are more than happy to help Mary with drawing or scissors if she is struggling. It is heartening to see.

To be honest Father Anthony, every segment of the parish population needs loving care. Our priests are overburdened and I believe the laity needs to be engaged in caring for each other. This goes for ALL persons there.

When I suggested that some of the people at church provide a week's worth of meals for our priest who was recovering from surgery, you would have thought I'd sprouted wings! It was something that they had never considered! Several people embraced the idea but I could tell it hadn't been done before in recent years.

I find that people are hungry for someone to listen to them and love them through their problems, fears, or whatever. This includes Mary. If she's had a rough week for whatever reason, a hug and compassion help her along. By demonstrating acceptance and love to Mary, her Mom's heart is deeply touched and she has expressed great gratitude for Mary's acceptance by the kids and me without a backward glance.

As I've witnessed in another church (not Orthodox), if there is a welcome place for people with special needs and they are treated like the person God created them to be, in His image, they will flock to the church.

Hope this helps.
Athanasia

Father Anthony

11-04-2007, 04:58 AM

Trudy

11-04-2007, 11:23 PM

Dear Paul and Anthanasia, Christ is Risen!

Thank you for your posts. I am especially appreciative of Athanasia's post. Statistically 1 in 10 children falls into the classification of "special needs". That is they have some sort of severe behavioral or learning disability, physical, mental, or emotional disorders. Autism comes to mind along with mental retardation as examples that are most noticed, but there are others that are burdened out there also. Both Paul and Athanasia touch upon there parish's approach and "ministry" to these children of God. Any others?

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+

Fr. Anthony,

I thought of one more thing that may be helpful. My best friend's son is autistic. When he speaks to you, he never looks at you but looks past you. It is easy to think he is not paying any attention, but that is not true. He is hanging on every word.

Curiously, my son who is not autistic, but has a genius level I.Q., used to do the same thing. He would look past you, or be playing with something in his hand when we were speaking (even correcting) him. Most irritating.

My best friend explained to me why her son does that, which in turn helped me understand why my son used to do the same thing.

All this to say, educating the parishioners and especially the teachers is an absolute must if they (and we) are to integrate a special needs student into programming. And special needs covers a very large span. A child that is exceptionally bright has jsut as many special needs, as does a child who is at the other end of the spectrum, though the needs are different.

Kissing your right hand,
Athanasia

Shelley Platt

27-04-2009, 03:31 AM

Vasiliki D.

27-04-2009, 03:59 AM

I've been wondering about prayer for a severely disabled child. She is 11 yo, just began to walk, but does not speak. I would like to pray to a specific saint for help in teaching her, and for her to learn.
Shelley

Dear Shelly, my brother is a special needs child (he is now an adult). Anyway, I have been told my brother is a living angel by sooooo many fathers of the church. In 1984, my father visited Elder Paisios of the mountain who called my brother an "angel" of heaven.

This said ..if my brother is an "angel" of heaven (special needs children are angels) is it not appropriate to pray to the Archangel Michael or the Taxiarhes Angels who are the "leaders" of the angels for the protection of one of their own?

Perhaps I can share a miracle story? Three years ago my brother went and stood in front of the icon of the Archangel Michael and had a 30 minute conversation with him (no one knows what they were saying we were just observing the behaviour) ... my brother was laughing and giggling and having a great time and was staring directly at the icon ...

I dont like sharing many of our family stories unless they offer some sort of help to others ... I hope you find some peace in my recommendation - I sincerely believe that the Archangel Michael will look after this little angel.

Also, Saint Stylianos is the protector of children ...and we must NEVER go past the Mother of us all ... the Akathist Hymn to the Mother of God for children is also a recommended must have prayer service.

Shelley Platt

27-04-2009, 06:32 AM

[QUOTE=Vasiliki D.;78430] is it not appropriate to pray to the Archangel Michael?

Thank you SO much for your reply, and for sharing your personal story which meant a lot to me. When I was Baptized last year I took the name Mikhaila for Archangel Michael so it will be very special to me to ask his aid! I only began working with this little girl some weeks ago, but have been encouraged by new things I see her do. This has to be the best job in the world!
Shelley

Vasiliki D.

27-04-2009, 06:45 AM

Thank you SO much for your reply, and for sharing your personal story which meant a lot to me. When I was Baptized last year I took the name Mikhaila for Archangel Michael so it will be very special to me to ask his aid! I only began working with this little girl some weeks ago, but have been encouraged by new things I see her do. This has to be the best job in the world! Shelley

There are so many things to be aware of with children with special needs. Some of these are obvious and some not so. In my experience as the sibling of a special need child and as an Orthodox, I know that the devil can also tempt these children as well ... they do not have a means to explain this to us and some times their behaviour can come across as they are upset or angry or frustrated and it can be as simple as the devil upseting them.

I dont know how much influence you have over this young girl (ie. if she is your niece or if its work). If, however, this is a child from your family ... ask if you can take this little girl to receive a reading from the priest after the Divine Liturgy on a Sunday.

This is one of the most precious prayers we can give these childrens on a frequent basis. Our priest reads my brother using the "Logos" (the spear used to cut the bread for the communion) just after the Service and this seems to work miracles on him.

One other point I wanted to make is that the family also needs much prayers. My personal experience is that we love these children however the rest of the world is not so caring or understanding. So, a few prayers for the families also helps - particularly the siblings.

You can PM if you want to chat more.

With love, Vasiliki. A sibling.

Andrew D. Morrell

27-04-2009, 07:58 AM

Christ is risen!

Father bless.

Our church is blessed with a few children with extra special needs. They are all loved and well treated in our church.

In our case, our precious young son (8.5) has Tourrette's syndrome. It is incorrectly perceived as a behavioral issue... it is actually a biological/neurological disorder. We are hyper protective of him and his feelings and have been blessed with how much love and patience he receives from the congregation at both our home church and the local Greek church we sometimes commune with.

Here is a link to an excellent paper regarding the "invisible disabilities" that so many children suffer from.

http://www.oca.org/RHArticle.asp?SID=15&ArticleID=251 (http://www.oca.org/RHArticle.asp?SID=15&ArticleID=251)

If possible, please keep us informed of your progress. I will keep your efforts in my prayers.

In Christ,
Andrew

Christ is Risen!

Hopefully, I am putting this thread in the right section, if not I asked the moderator to relocate it to the right section/forum.

I have been asked to prepare a presentation on Special Needs Children in the Family of the Orthodox Churchin the latter part of May. I have googled the topic in various ways and then checked also the databases of the various official church websites. Unfortunately, only a few articles on the topic exist. That leads me to ask, as a church have we been ignoring this segment of our faithful and their families?

Are there any ways that local parishes, dioceses, or churches have effected to reach out to them. If so I would be interested in hearing of any parish outreach or formalized ways of reaching this segment of our church population and their families.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+

Shelley Platt

27-04-2009, 04:06 PM

You can PM if you want to chat more.
PM'd you but your box is full and it wouldn't go through.
Shelley

Theodora E.

28-04-2009, 03:39 AM

I would like to present the other side of this issue. I do not wish to offend or upset anyone, but I have observed plenty of special needs children - from those with learning disabilities to profoundly mentally disabled - going back into my pre-Orthodox days, when the parents, unfortunately, did not attempt to control their children at all/deal with the children's behavior.

I have seen children allowed to run about the nave, screaming at the top of their lungs, rolling in the aisles many feet away from their parents, children doing a good job of removing a large amount of the sand from the candle sand boxes, destroying service books/hymnals/offering envelopes in the pew. I've seen priests and deacons slammed into by said children (lower grammar school age) who were running around at full speed during the Great Entrance. Thankfully, none of the Holy Gifts were spilled. My own purse was gone through, items dumped out, and my prayer book partially destroyed (they were sitting on a chair on the wall, while I was standing in the middle of the church - this was a church with no pews. I saw it happen, but the child was so quick the damage was done by the time I got to her) by a special needs child whose parents would not control her - and who got very confrontational when I mentioned the incident to her parents and who said the child would be allowed to do whatever she wanted to.

Many of these were children with learning disabilities who were "normal enough" on the spectrum to be mainstreamed in regular public school classrooms. Unfortunately, no one wanted to address the situation, including the priest.

The most recent encounter was last summer when a mother wheeled a toddler strapped into a stroller into the back of my current parish, sat down, and proceeded to do nothing while the child screamed bloody murder for the entire 1 hour, 45 minute Divine Liturgy. I'm in choir, and due to the way we're arranged the mother and child were in my line of sight throughout the entire service, aside from when I sat down for the sermon. Our church has a hard floor surface, so it is a very acoustically "live" space. The choir consistenly had a very difficult time getting pitch off the director because we simply could not hear. I sat in the front row for the sermon, and I caught very little (and our priest uses a microphone) because of the screaming child. Boy, was that a topic of discussion at coffee hour that day! Many others also said they could not hear the sermon. I mentioned the situation to my priest later in the week, and from his response, I assume I was not the only one he heard from. From what he said to me, I believe he talked to the mother. He said we'd have to tolerate "normal kid noise," but he realized this was far beyond "normal kid noise" and that he was working with the mother. They came again, but if the child screamed, she took him out into the narthex. I only found out after the fact from my priest that the toddler was profoundly mentally disabled, but that does not excuse the mother from just sitting there, not doing anything, while he screamed for the entire service.

I think many people are afraid to address such situations because 1. the parents of special needs children are already dealing with a great deal and 2. they're afraid of appearing to be insensitive and/or politically incorrect.

But in the situations I've witnessed, I don't believe it does either side - the special needs child/parents or the parish as a whole - any good to ignore consistent, bad behavioral issues. In fact, one of the myriad reasons I left a church was because I was tired of services being disrupted by children always running around and screaming like banshees, parents who did not care (they paid attention to the service and let the children roam), and a parish leadership (including the priest) that did not care to address the situation. We're not talking regular kid noise - but behavior far beyond that.

Olga

28-04-2009, 07:09 AM

I've been wondering about prayer for a severely disabled child. She is 11 yo, just began to walk, but does not speak. I would like to pray to a specific saint for help in teaching her, and for her to learn.
Shelley

St John of Shanghai and San Francisco was treated for a speech impediment for some years. St John of Kronstadt had great trouble in his youth in concentrating on his studies. The Apostles, who were mostly fishermen and tradesmen with little formal education, received the gift of speaking foreign languages and teaching at Pentecost. St Romanus the Melodist, as a young deacon, had a woeful voice, yet, through the intercession of the Mother of God, his voice was transformed into a thing of beauty. Hope this helps, Shelley.

Shelley Platt

28-04-2009, 03:26 PM

St John of Shanghai and San Francisco was treated for a speech impediment for some years. St John of Kronstadt had great trouble in his youth in concentrating on his studies. The Apostles, who were mostly fishermen and tradesmen with little formal education, received the gift of speaking foreign languages and teaching at Pentecost. St Romanus the Melodist, as a young deacon, had a woeful voice, yet, through the intercession of the Mother of God, his voice was transformed into a thing of beauty. Hope this helps, Shelley.

Olga, that is a big help in assembling a choir of saints to help with my young friend! Thank you!
Theodora, I'm sorry you have had such a difficult time with these little ones of God. It does seem to have touched a sore spot with you.

Margaret S.

28-04-2009, 04:50 PM

Theodora, I'm sorry you have had such a difficult time with these little ones of God. It does seem to have touched a sore spot with you.

I've had similar experiences to Theodora's and, honestly, the spot wasn't sore to begin with.

Regards
Margaret
in Edinburgh

Father David Moser

28-04-2009, 05:11 PM

I've had similar experiences to Theodora's and, honestly, the spot wasn't sore to begin with.

I suspect that the "issue" is not about the special needs child, but with the parents who do not know how to or refuse to take the time and effort to teach their children. No matter how disabled a child is, chances are he has as much capacity to learn as a dog and dogs can be taught to sit/lie quietly when instructed to do so. It takes a lot of patience, time, effort, and repetition (and repetition and repetition) to accomplish this, but it is quite doable. Any child can be taught "behavior" by someone who loves them enough to sacrifice their own agenda to invest the time and energy it takes for such training.

Is a special needs child the same as a dog or other animal? Certainly not, such a child is inestimably higher and of greater value than any animal. However, the "training"/teaching techniques that one can use on an unruly puppy to teach a desired behavior can be used even with a disabled child so that that child can function more comfortably in society.

I suppose that I've ranted on enough. I do not assume that the parent of an unruly child doesn't love their child - by no means. It could certainly simply mean that that parent doesn't know what to do and how to do the things they need to do to help their child and so are in despair and feeling helpless and powerless. Thus it falls also to the rest of us in the Body of Christ to bear one another's burdens and do all that we can to help the parent of the disabled child so that that parent can help their child.

Fr David Moser

Theodora E.

29-04-2009, 01:23 AM

Well, I had experience with a close friend for all 4 years of high school that made me aware of the other side of this issue more than 22 years ago. My friend had a brother younger by 5 years, who was mentally disabled from lack of oxygen at birth from the cord around his neck. At age 13, he had the mental capacity of about a 5 year old. My friend's parents did not bother to teach her brother anything about boundaries and respecting other people's things. So, her stuff - clothes, books, cassette tapes, makeup, anything personal, was fair game for her brother. Their parents did not allow her to keep her things away from her brother. She was not even allowed to have a lock on her bedroom door to keep him out. She was very bright and had some creative solutions to save at least some of her things occasionally, without her parents' knowledge. I remember her being unable to turn in homework more than once because he had destroyed it. Her teachers were understanding, but it still caused her problems in school. She rarely had any of us over because her brother was always in your face - and in your stuff.

Finally, in our junior year, she more than willingly agreed to stay during the week with her elderly grandmother who lived several blocks from our Catholic high school (her parents lived 15 minutes away). Grandma had gotten to an age where she felt better with someone else in the house at night. Grandma was mostly deaf and didn't bother my friend most of the time. I spent a lot of time at grandma's with friend. She was able to get her homework done in peace, not have to worry about it being destroyed by her brother. I think she ended up keeping a lot of her stuff over at grandma's, even during the summers.

So, as a result of what my friend went through, I have little patience with parents of special needs children who use the special need as a reason for not disciplining their children or taking any sort of responsibility for their children's behavior (such as not taking a screaming bloody murder child out of the nave to try to calm him down).

Andrew D. Morrell

29-04-2009, 06:01 AM

Interesting responses.

Not all special needs (disabled) children are unruly and not all unruly children are disabled. In my experience, most unruly children are victims of poor parenting. So sad, as the children will eventually suffer more than those around them who may be annoyed or distracted.

In our case, we are very, very blessed. Our son has blended reasonably well into the congregation because we are there to address his needs and guide him. When we see he is unable to handle the stress, we take him out of the service. At times, he stays home.

We have it far easier than many. But still, a Tourrette's child can't be trained 'like a dog'... it's not a behavioral disorder so that approach is completely ineffective. The only approach has been trial and error... and unconditionally embracing the fruits of the spirit, laying everything on us rather than our son, until he is more capable. We just don't lay our responsibility down, ever.

It's always very sad to see parents not embracing their responsibilities to both their children and those around them. But it break my heart to see the looks they get from others in a church. Ideally, Church leadership should find a compassionate and gentle approach and engage with those families, perhaps offer some skilled parenting training sessions. We endorse what is called attachment parenting and have found it to be an incredibly effective approach for so many handicapped or disabled children.

In my non-Orthodox days, I'd visit friend's churches that barred children under eight years old from the service. One of the USA's largest evangelical denominations still does that.

Again, Father Anthony, your effort is in my prayers.

In Christ,
Andrew

“Let the little children come to me and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven.” Matthew 19:14

Christ is Risen!

Are there any ways that local parishes, dioceses, or churches have effected to reach out to them. If so I would be interested in hearing of any parish outreach or formalized ways of reaching this segment of our church population and their families.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+

Vasiliki D.

29-04-2009, 10:01 AM

Not all special needs (disabled) children are unruly and not all unruly children are disabled.

“Let the little children come to me and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven.” Matthew 19:14

Interesting responses but that was the best. Perhaps there would be less criticism of families who have to deal with "training the dogs" if people understood how different it is to raising a normal child.

The whole reason these children are labelled "mentally disabled" is because there is a portion (or portions of) their brain that are no longer functional (ie. dead) or dormant (ie. asleep) ... the part of the brain that is sleeping CAN be stimulated and CAN be improved through the appropriate exercises. However, the part of the brain that is dead (in my families situation, my brother lost oxygen to his brain after the whooping cough injection so his brain cells are dead) is dead and can not be stimulated or revived.

If certain brain cells are dead that relate to behaviour then no matter what a parent does they can not "train" their child like a dog (ie. learning function albeit like a robot is disabled) and therefore it does not make their parenting any less "good" than a parent who's child IS behaving.

I would advise that many people on this thread should refrain from passing judgement or comment unless they are experts or have personally lived the experience because we are not talking JUST about "political correctness" but we are talking about passing judgement on people who are carrying a cross that GOD has given them.

Also, if people are distracted by the behaviour of such children (regardless the circumstance) it suggest MORE how far on each person is on their Spiritual path rather than how fairly those parents are "parenting".

Their are monastics who fight demons on a daily basis ...these demons scream and make all sorts of "noise" to distract them from their prayers ... those who succeed in their prayers are those who learn to "block out" this noise without even focusing or paying attention to that noise in the first instance.

Anything that distracts us in church is not the fault of that object but OUR OWN fault .. it is our OWN sin ... we are obviously desiring to worship God under our own idea of what constitutes a "perfect prayerful" environment and that is a little egotistical if we really dug deep into it and thought about it.

As Adam said to God ...its not my fault ..its Eve and then Eve said ..its not my fault ... its the snakes fault that you made.

.................. Is Orthodoxy about how perfect things can appear outwardly or is it about our OWN inward perfection?

Just a thought because when we stop and think this way ..those precious children DO NOT become a burden to us in Church ......

Shelley Platt

29-04-2009, 05:03 PM

Interesting responses.

I've been thinking about these responses all day. My head is spinning, really, when I try to consider all the different perspectives--that of the child, that of the parent, that of the irritated worshipper. What continually surfaces is the response of Jesus to the Gerasene demonic, and the phrase from the daily prayers that petitions, "Let them not perish because of me, a sinner", and what God the Father must have thought about "unruly spiritual Israel" whose parent He was!
Yes, I think it is good that parents take responsibility for their child's behavior seriously and not let things get out of hand, but I'm also aware that children on the autism spectrum do not process information the same way that the rest of us do. Just for an example of how life would be different, imagine what your own life would be like if you were, say, high on lsd all the time and didn't know the difference! Probably people reading this won't know what that's like, but it is a very different perception of reality. Behavioral training is important, but it's not the whole answer.
What I'd like to see in worshippers of Christ is compassion, an active interest in these families and an attitude of "how can I help?" instead of criticism.

Theodora E.

29-04-2009, 07:55 PM

Also, if people are distracted by the behaviour of such children (regardless the circumstance) it suggest MORE how far on each person is on their Spiritual path rather than how fairly those parents are "parenting".

<snip>
Anything that distracts us in church is not the fault of that object but OUR OWN fault .. it is our OWN sin ... we are obviously desiring to worship God under our own idea of what constitutes a "perfect prayerful" environment and that is a little egotistical if we really dug deep into it and thought about it.

As Adam said to God ...its not my fault ..its Eve and then Eve said ..its not my fault ... its the snakes fault that you made.

.................. Is Orthodoxy about how perfect things can appear outwardly or is it about our OWN inward perfection?

Just a thought because when we stop and think this way ..those precious children DO NOT become a burden to us in Church ......

Vasiliki, did you read my post with the examples I've personally witnessed? If a child's behavior - I don't care if it's a "normal" or "special needs" child - results in physical interference with the clergy in the Great Entrance or interferes to the point that the entire choir has difficulty getting pitch off the director, multiple times in the same service, there is a major problem. I've also seen people in the midst of receiving Communion being slammed into by a child running about. Again, as in the incident in the Great Entrance, thankfully none of the Holy Gifts were spilled.

I'm not talking about a kid getting a bit rowdy or somewhat noisy. The priests and deacons who were run into by a running child during the Great Entrance were not lacking in their spiritual path - a child ran into them. Nor was my choir, regardless of how much we strained to hear, because our ears were filled with the child's screams. I was 2 feet away from the director and still couldn't get pitch. Nor the congregation who could not hear the majority of a sermon because of said child's screams.

We've all heard a child who has the ability to scream for hours on end without seeming to take a breath - that's what we had during an entire Sunday morning Liturgy. Assigning a lack of spiritual maturity to an entire congregation and choir because they couldn't hear over a screaming child is absurd.

D. W. Dickens

29-04-2009, 08:27 PM

Vasiliki D.

30-04-2009, 01:08 AM

Autism, epilepsy, colic, wandering toddlers, addicts, two much perfume, not enough bathing, whatever, love your parishioners more than your liturgy.

Dear Andrew, I would like to say we can not love our parisheners more than the liturgy but similarly we can not love the liturgy enough if we do not love our parisheners. The two go together otherwise we are not a living organism :)

I understand what you are dealing with because my brother is mentally disabled and I have dealt with a lot more than most people could possibly understand in my life (hence why I can be so serious in real life and people dont understand the WHY but that is not for this forum but private message).

When my parents first went to church I was about 5 years old .. and back then my brother would have been around 8-9. My parents were actively involved with a program (that is based in America) called the "Institute for Human Development" ( a very controversial program - at the time) which is now highly recognised for its research and methods on the human brain.

I must point out that my brother is actually very quiet in church and is very well behaved. Glory to God, our family does not have an unruly angel on our hands he is a very peaceful and loveable child that sits with manners etc.

However, when we first started going to church (back when I was 4) every Sunday my brother would make noises during the liturgy ... and right at the point of the Gospel - as the priest was reading - he would (excuse the language it might offend some but it is a reality of what he did) fart really loud and everyone in the church would turn around and stare and judge ... and no one liked it.

After a few weeks this was continuing into a pattern and one that my parents could not control and they were embarresed for the disturbance it would cause. So, they approached the parish priest to apologise ... HE (the priest and God Bless Him for his RIGHT thinking) said to my parents, that if anyone in the congregation was disturbed by it ... they could get up and leave and that my parents were NOT the ones who were to leave the liturgy. Infact, he said that the farting was demonic and that with regular communion and attendance ... with time, the temptation would go away ....

It took about 2 years but it stopped and now my brother is one of the most recognised and loved handicapped children in the Greek Orthodox church of Melbourne.

We are Socially Engineered in this Amero-Anglo world .. its all about the ME. Like I said in the previous post ... worship is not about the outward conditions (hence why I love Byzantine chant .. because the voices are raw and not perfect so if I get into it .. I get into it because it is not stroking my human desire for aesthetically pleasing music) of our environment but the inward conditions of our soul's environment.

Theodora E.

30-04-2009, 02:58 AM

For those of us who are able, we should carry the burdens of those who are not able. None of us comes to Christ alone, but together. Disruptions require careful pastoral love for all involved, but if the Church isn't for the least then it is of no use to the most.

I escaped the Protestant wilderness of 'sufficient' Christians. It is the one concern I have about other such converts as myself that any of them would retain their individualism in this manner.

We are one with a troubled child (or adult), they are one with us. I am as easily disturbed by a crying child as the next person, but I know my response should be love, not anger.

I strain at my own opinion on this matter and see a self-righteousness in my heart that I dislike. However, unless someone is literally making it impossible for the priest or others to perform their duties, we should help rather than punish others. But even then who knows what creative means might be employed to mitigate the interference?

Autism, epilepsy, colic, wandering toddlers, addicts, two much perfume, not enough bathing, whatever, love your parishioners more than your liturgy.

Unfortunately, more often than not, I've seen (and I've sometimes been the one offering it) assistance refused - assistance such as offering to stand with the other siblings while a parent took the special needs child out to calm down. There's only so much you can do - understandably, parents of special needs children often don't want others dealing with their children. But if you offer to watch the family's other children in church, and the parents don't accept that, what more can you do? Not all churches have "cry rooms," for example.

I guess what boggles my mind is that the most extreme forms of misbehavior are excused or given a pass, simply because a child is special needs. As I posted before, most of the incidents I've witnessed are with grammar school age children, who are in regular public school classrooms - they're not in a separate special education classroom. As such, if they're in a regular classroom, certain minimum levels of behavior are going to be expected and enforced, such as not running around. So, the child is used to behaving in a certain way at school - no running around in the classroom, for example. Why can this be expected at school and not in church? Would you put up with a kid running around a movie theatre or a restaurant, or is it only in church that the child can behave any which way?

And yes, this can also apply to "normal" children, but since the topic was special needs children, that's who I confined my remarks to.

Something else I was pondering this afternoon: what about Sunday school and special needs children, especially those who tend to be disruptive/have severe behavioral issues - can your ordinary, run-of-the-mill Sunday School teacher (usually with no regular school teaching experience, let alone special ed training) be expected, or even yet, required to teach such a child? If that's the case where does that leave the rest of the kids in the class, when a teacher has to spend a lot of time on the special needs child?

Again, I'm not talking about minor issues (a kid crying or talking some or making some noises or moving about some, not running around), but major disruptions. If it's constant (most Sundays), I can't imagine the pastor not initiating a discussion with the parents about the situation. Yes, we need to have compassion, but there comes a point when the needs of ALL need to be considered.

Shelley Platt

30-04-2009, 03:33 AM

Someone here asked for an update from time to time on the 11 year old special needs child I work with, and today was very rewarding! I have been praying for her, and working hard with her to master some of the basic sounds that a year old baby would use. Today we were working on the sound/letter "b" and I actually got her to say it several times! I'm ecstatic, because one letter points to the possibility that she will learn to talk! Everyone on the staff was elated. Thank you, St Michael, for hearing my prayers.

Theodora E.

30-04-2009, 04:26 AM

D. W. Dickens

30-04-2009, 05:22 AM

Unfortunately, more often than not, I've seen (and I've sometimes been the one offering it) assistance refused - assistance such as offering to stand with the other siblings while a parent took the special needs child out to calm down.

As I said, if that disruption isn't knocking over candle stands and spilling the gifts, our patience is more useful than our angry glares. We need to rid ourselves of the illusion of control over such situations. More often than not parents are protecting you as much as their children when they refuse help. They immediately think about how hard it is for them to maintain control and suppose that the percentage chance that their kid my freak out on you is too high to risk.

Also I've noticed with my own wife (who is very different from me in this respect) sometimes help is alot of work to accept. When we've had people at Church offer to help us in various ways, it was often more work to arrange some constructive way to help us, or work up the emotional space to deal both with them and our crisis that help was counter-productive.

I guess what boggles my mind is that the most extreme forms of misbehavior are excused or given a pass, simply because a child is special needs.

Thank God that my priest and my parish excuse and give me a pass for the thousands of my own disruptions simply because I am a new convert. We all experience the graceful tolerance beyond our imaginations from one another. I wonder what my unfortunate guardian angel's day is like.

I think we can all do more to appreciate how much others forgive us.

Why can this be expected at school and not in church? Would you put up with a kid running around a movie theatre or a restaurant, or is it only in church that the child can behave any which way?

This is the pastoral question for parents and their children and pastors for their flock. How many priests on this very forum ask themselves this question about the adults in their parish. The highly complex answer is, we expect as much as the child can do and no more. Knowing what the child is actually capable of is quite a trick though.

Something else I was pondering this afternoon: what about Sunday school and special needs children, especially those who tend to be disruptive/have severe behavioral issues - can your ordinary, run-of-the-mill Sunday School teacher (usually with no regular school teaching experience, let alone special ed training) be expected, or even yet, required to teach such a child? If that's the case where does that leave the rest of the kids in the class, when a teacher has to spend a lot of time on the special needs child?

Sometimes more is required than a run-of-the-mill could provide. They may require help. Help from the parents, help from other volunteers, and most importantly help from the other students. And frankly they also need to know when they are beyond their own abilities and find someone else to take over. This requires alot of the very capable in the parish, but that is why the very capable are made so by grace! Often our most capable are drawn to "important" things instead of "needful" things. We want them (and they want) to run our grand programs for renovating the Church or starting a new community outreach or a podcast or some other such thing, when truthfully we need their gifts in dealing with an unruly kid in Sunday school.

Again, I'm not talking about minor issues (a kid crying or talking some or making some noises or moving about some, not running around), but major disruptions.

To me a major disruption is someone pulling out a fire arm. What is your idea of a major disruption?

Yes, we need to have compassion, but there comes a point when the needs of ALL need to be considered.

This will begin to sound harsh, so forgive me my style in responding to you. However, in this I point out that Christ our Lord tells us the shepard leaves the 99 to go find the 1. This is our example. These children are the parish's burden and we are assured (we were just reading from St Jame's General Epistle tonight) that trials have their rewards.

Count it a joy. Yup. I know that's hard. But they don't call them trials because they are easy.

Theodora E.

30-04-2009, 05:26 AM

Also, if people are distracted by the behaviour of such children (regardless the circumstance) it suggest MORE how far on each person is on their Spiritual path rather than how fairly those parents are "parenting".

Their are monastics who fight demons on a daily basis ...these demons scream and make all sorts of "noise" to distract them from their prayers ... those who succeed in their prayers are those who learn to "block out" this noise without even focusing or paying attention to that noise in the first instance.

Anything that distracts us in church is not the fault of that object but OUR OWN fault .. it is our OWN sin ... we are obviously desiring to worship God under our own idea of what constitutes a "perfect prayerful" environment and that is a little egotistical if we really dug deep into it and thought about it.

As Adam said to God ...its not my fault ..its Eve and then Eve said ..its not my fault ... its the snakes fault that you made.

.................. Is Orthodoxy about how perfect things can appear outwardly or is it about our OWN inward perfection?

Just a thought because when we stop and think this way ..those precious children DO NOT become a burden to us in Church ......

If you can pray with a kid screaming non-stop, good for you. I can't and I suspect a lot of people can't. However, implying someone is spiritually immature because they have a difficult time concentrating on prayer with a disruptive situation in church does no good, either. In any case, I don't *really* get to fully pray during Liturgy, at least not like the folks in the congregation do. When you're part of the choir, your responsibility is to help the priest in leading the worship, and the congregation in prayer (as our director repeatedly says when we do the Creed or the Lord's Prayer a bit too fast - the OCA sings these - and we do them congregationally). To do that, you need to be able to concentrate - and hear the director's pitches and instructions, as well as yourself and the other singers around you. Very loud and disruptive children - special needs or not - can hinder that in a big way.

Just another perspective.

Theodora E.

30-04-2009, 05:30 AM

More often than not parents are protecting you as much as their children when they refuse help. They immediately think about how hard it is for them to maintain control and suppose that the percentage chance that their kid my freak out on you is too high to risk.

Also I've noticed with my own wife (who is very different from me in this respect) sometimes help is alot of work to accept. When we've had people at Church offer to help us in various ways, it was often more work to arrange some constructive way to help us, or work up the emotional space to deal both with them and our crisis that help was counter-productive.

I'm sorry I wasn't clear enough. I've offered (and seen offered) assistance with the "normal" other siblings in a family while the parents handled the situation with the special needs kid. The assistance with the "normal" siblings is what has been refused.

If someone offered to watch your other children in church (if you have them) while you took your special needs child out, would you refuse that offer? If someone gently said, "I'll watch A & B ("normal kids") while you take C (special needs) into the narthex for a bit," the answer is no?

ETA: you asked what I considered a major disruption. The kid screaming non-stop for all 1 hour 45 minutes of Liturgy is a good example. Or several kids running around the church (on a hard floor surface) and screaming - in the middle of Liturgy.

Paul Cowan

30-04-2009, 06:54 AM

Our Bishop a few years back stopped his homily to give proper decorum for children and for all adults within the temple and the proper use of the "cry room" as he was being interrupted by the more 'active' kids. He was quite firm and the lesson was hard learned for all; for the rest of that day.

Father David Moser

30-04-2009, 07:00 AM

As I said, if that disruption isn't knocking over candle stands and spilling the gifts, our patience is more useful than our angry glares.

I think that you are putting words in Theodora's mouth (or perhaps glares in her eyes). She is talking about the kind of disruption that is knocking over candle stands and spilling the gifts. I am a priest and I don't know about you, but even the smallest disturbance such as someone walking in the door or a child running unchecked in circles can affect adversely my ability to read the Gospel or give a homily where my concentration has to be not only on the book in front of me, but on reading it in an understandable way that is easy to listen to. Most "minor" disruptions I can overcome without too much difficulty, however, to have to compete with a screaming child just to be heard is not going to work.

We need to rid ourselves of the illusion of control over such situations.

Ah, but we do have control. Parents MUST control their children in the service - and I have regular chats with parents about their children's behavior (both good and bad) in services. They know why my expectations are and they do their best to pass those expectations on to their chidren (the meridian age of the children in my parish at the moment is right about 5 years and I have another "wave" of under 1 year and unders coming up and some of the "olders" are in fact special needs - one autistic, who now serves in the altar, and one with severe mood swings, who is beginning to sing in the choir). No, you don't have full control of your children all the time - but you do control where they are. My kids weren't angels growing up and since I was in the altar, it was Matushka's task to raise the kids. Her policy (with which I fully agreed) was that the kid yelled once - then the hand goes over the mouth and they are out the door until the behavior was corrected. Parents do have that kind of control over their children - and should exercise it, especially in Church.

When it comes to other people "helping" out with kids - I expect it (and it happens) in my parish. More often than not the closest parent (whether it is their own child or not) and sometimes even the non-parents will take responsibility for helping the nearest child. The parish is a family and we have to help each other. Sure kids can be distracting, but that distraction can and should be kept to a minimum.

This is the pastoral question for parents and their children and pastors for their flock. How many priests on this very forum ask themselves this question about the adults in their parish. The highly complex answer is, we expect as much as the child can do and no more. Knowing what the child is actually capable of is quite a trick though.

Actually, I expect more from both children and adults than they may think that are capable of and almost without fail they rise to meet that expectation. I do, in fact, speak with parents both privately and in general terms publicly about their and their children's behavior in Church. I also talk to the children directly and model for their parents how to set limits and how to explain what is OK and what is not.

Although it may not come across this way from this post, I am a pretty easy going guy and tolerate a lot of minor noise and movement, especially from kids. But there are times when as the priest - as the father of the parish family - I do have to step in and speak and act firmly and forcefully to correct a major problem. And I expect the parents of children to do the same for their families.

A Note on Focus
I realize here that I have strayed from the topic of special needs kids. It was my original intent to move the topic of children's behavior in Church to a different thread, however, the way the posts are written the two topics are to this point almost inextricable. Should they diverge sufficiently, a new thread will be created to continue the discussion of the general topic of children in Church and disciplining them while this thread should continue to focus on how to accommodate special needs children in the Church

Fr David Moser

D. W. Dickens

30-04-2009, 07:24 PM

I mean no insult to anyone, nor am I claiming anyone is of lesser spiritual development. I'm only offering that regardless of our development that it's easy to see it all from our personal perspective. It becomes about how this effects you. Theodora isn't talking about the needs of the child or even the family (except as a means of correcting something that bothers her).

While I was reading this thread my son was sitting next to me doing typical 6 year old stuff (asking for the second time if he could watch TV, telling me he was hungry again, and just generally fooling around... He knows snack time is in a few minutes and TV is off this morning.. so this is just him not knowing what to do with himself). This makes it difficult for me to read and respond to the thread, but he's not being an evil child. He's not throwing things or yelling, he simply doesn't know what to do with himself while he waits for snack time (and I'm not distracting him because I'm reading the boards).

This is just life. I suppose I could correct him over and over until he finally sat there silently hurt and upset at me or I could accept that he's 6 and I'm the adult and I can handle him messing with me a bit as I work on the computer.

Again, something must be done if someone is dangerous to others. But distraction is much different than disruption. Certainly they cannot be allowed to run circles around the altar!

Fr David's post is very helpful in that he points out the work he does. But I would say that a priest is in a different position to deal with this stuff. And it is awkward to even suggest someone ask their priest to interviene. I was speaking to a parishioners point of view. But your "style" or "gift" for pastoral care is just that Fr David. It's not Theodora's place or mine to act on our personal annoyances. That being said, I am also quite certain that the Gospel will survive you skipping a beat when someone walks through the door. And asking someone to 'rise' to the occasion is a tricky business. For someone like me who pushes himself hard, my boss's "you can always do better" is a supreme discouragement. It actually works against the natural desire for excellence in my work.

My posts are merely a chaffing against the need for ceremonial perfection during liturgy where decorum is more important than patience. I'm only on the other side of a line (not suggesting anything extreme, but suggesting we look to ourselves and our reactions to the disruption as opposed to trying to control the world around us).

Please forgive my tone and the implications of any insult or chastisement. Despite the work of my spiritual father I remain an opinionated man. Pray for him that he must bear the burden of me.