Attending Protestant events?

[Maria Murray]

Christ is risen!

I never know what the right thing to do is in situations with my very close friends that continually invite me to participate in Protestant events. Our families and kids have spent so much time together and we feel very close to them. One of my friends in particular, a Russian Baptist lady, has kids same age as mine and we talk almost every day. She is very active in her church where we used to be a part of the Bible study and has been very persistent in inviting us to it even though I keep telling her we're busy doing something, over the last 4 months. She is simply inviting because she wants to spend time with us and she thinks we are trying to be good Christians, so she wants to share that experience with us. Also, recently she's been asking us to come to their fundraising/support events for missionaries to preach the 'salvation' message by organizing kids camps in the former Soviet Union. While I don't feel it's totally wrong to participate in a Bible study, I definitely do not want to support their missionaries because deep down I believe now that they are teaching a perverted (forgive my language) salvation message, although well-meaning. It was precisely because of such message that I allowed myself at one point to begin mental departure from Orthodoxy and I know others who have been influenced by it in a similar manner. At this time, having gone though that experience of detouring into Protestanism and back, I feel my mistakes taught me a good lesson - to look deeply into the theological differences that separate us. So I do not think such events will any longer affect my theology, but I feel that I'm being dishonest with my friend by not telling her the real reason for my repeated refusals. Is it arrogant and unloving to just tell her I now think they teach preverted gospel and I don't want part of it? It hurts even to think about saying that. The irony is, not that long ago, I used to agree with her. I also see how genuine she is but keep wishing she could see it our way, even though her perceptions of Orthodoxy are distorted.

- Is it wrong to participate in non-Orthodox religious happenings? When do you do it, if at all?
- Is my choice to either mislead my friend by making up excuses for not going or to leave her with the impression that the Orthodox are triumphalistic and arrogant by telling her how I feel?
Maria

[Robert Hegwood]

Christ is Risen!

It is my general understanding that we are not to join nonorthodox in their prayers...and that would presumably include theirs religious services. That said gven the nature of American society, the general tenor of the times, and the complexities of interpersonal and familial relationships I am not exactly sure how strictly such a prohibition is to be exercised in any given situation.

For example if at a family member's house and they say grace, I bow my head but tend not to say amen and pray a silent Orthodox blessing instead. If I attend church with my mother when back home, I'm present but don't "participate"....but that's me. I may not be doing it right...but it seems for me to be the right balance and I of course let my priest know what I'm doing.

It is understandable why attending a fundraiser to support protestant missionaries in Orthodox lands would be troubling. If your friend is a close enough one you might be able to tell her ever so gently why you object...it may not have even crossed her mind before. You could even find some Orthodox missionary activity that is targeted at teaching people how to resist protestant efforts or rescue them from protestant missionary churches...and see how she reacts to that...probably the way you feel about her activities. Then the lights might go on. Of course that could be pushing things too far.

The best course is perhaps to simply ask your priest for his counsel and do what he advises.

[Father David Moser]

It is understandable why attending a fundraiser to support protestant missionaries in Orthodox lands would be troubling. If your friend is a close enough one you might be able to tell her ever so gently why you object...it may not have even crossed her mind before.

If this is an appropriate (and it is certainly not always appropriate) approach to issue, the question I would insert into the process is why they find it necessary to take the Gospel to Christians? Why are they evangelizing those who are already evangelized. That does not sound like good stewardship to me. This question may also bring to the fore the issue of whether or not Orthodox Christians are really Christians...

Fr David Moser

[Trudy]

This question may also bring to the fore the issue of whether or not Orthodox Christians are really Christians...

Fr David Moser

Therein is the big issue Fr. David. Many Evangelical Protestants do not believe that Roman Catholics or Orthodox are Christian. Many think that we "worship idols, don't believe that we have the freedom to approach God in prayer without an intermediary (the priest), and other such nonsense. The most important isse is that we haven't prayed the salvation prayer thus have no hope of eternity with God." Thus we need to be corrected.

Lord have mercy on us all!

Athanasia

[Trudy]

Christ is risen!

Indeed He is Risen!

Maria,

Truly this is a question to review with your spiritual father. For each of us it is different.

Because I am married to a non-Orthodox (yet faithful Christian), my circumstances and guidance would be very different than someone elses.

In general the instructions are that we are not to pray with non-Orthodox. In certain circumstances, I will pray the Jesus Prayer continuously or pray memorized prayers silently. I try to pay attention to different hymns that are sung to make sure I am not singing heresy. I do not attend Bible studies because too often then devolve into nothing that is good. If someone has a sincere question about Orthodoxy, then I will answer it sincerely. But my experience has taught me to keep my mouth shut and my heart in prayer.

In situations similar to yours, I have said thank you for the invitation but that I am unable to attend. If it is seminar or revival type gathering, I will just say thanks but I'm not interested and wish them a very good time.

Hope this helps.

Athanasia

[Chris Manaras]

Maria,

You start your post by calling this person your "friend" and then attaching a label to her. She is a "Child of God" first, before all else. Is she true to her beliefs (and is there "good fruit" in her life)?

Your families are close and your children are looking to you to set an example in all things. You can choose to let them see how imparitive it is to love ALL people, ALL the time. Or you can show your family that it's acceptable to withhold love from people who share different traditions, cultures, beliefs, etc., than your own. This is the very issue I'm having to strugle with evident in the ethnically-oriented parish I attend. To love ALL is what Christ challenged us to do. To pick and chose opens the door for predjudice and hate to run rampant in one's heart.

Isn't is truely a blessing to be able to hold different beliefs and STILL be friends. Keep the ties that bind you together stronger than those that would tear you appart.

[Paul Cowan]

Dear Chris:
I will let Maria defend herself, but I don't think this is what she is saying.

I can show love to others as I am able. I recently attended an RC funeral. Out of love I attended. Out of love I sang the songs, Out of love I prayed and cried with them. Out of obedience, I did NOT take communion.

What I read in her post was more to do with stepping on the toes of Orthodox obedience and not violating any lines of heresy within our loved ones churchs or activities. My mother is Methodist. I was raised Methodist. She does not understand Orthodoxy nor cares to. She will listen out of love as I talk about my Faith if the opportunity arises. I in turn out of love will support her in her faith. If she invites me to church one day, (doubtful) and I go, (doubtful) I will participate in the service up to the point where Orthodoxy says, "nope, that ain't the right way". At that point, I will withdraw into myself and say the Jesus Prayer until it is time to go.

If I know the whole event is not "right", I might have a migraine that day. Being converts, we (I) have to keep in close touch with my spiritual father who knows better my steps to salvation than I ever will. And the steps to a fall more clearly than I ever will.

Paul

[Herman Blaydoe]

It is one thing, I think, to go to a heterodox wedding, or baptism, or funeral. These things we can certainly do for love. I think it is something else to attend a evangelistic event. When you are invited to these, it is with the express hope that you will be "converted". That is what these events are for. If they want to "reach out" to the "unchurched", then that is fine, let the unchurched attend. But we are very much "churched" so, for me at least, there is no need to go, even out of friendship. A real friend will understand.

We are already "churched", we are claimed, we are bought with a price.

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[Bogdan]

I have recently been faced with this same question, as I was invited to not only attend, but participate in a protestant wedding. As others have pointed out, your first source of answers should always be your spiritual father.

This is what I did, and he gave me the following advice:

You are more than welcome to join in all celebrations. When they invoke the trinity (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) you should cross yourself just as you would at your own church. He spoke to me much of how easily we are able to make other obscene geastures (i.e. road rage) yet we fear making the sign of the cross in public. To cross yourself and allow prayer at ANY event in your life, can never be bad. If anything, he made the point that you are showing them YOUR faith as they are showing you theirs.

He did mention that these "missions" are something to be weary of. His answer was to simply say you are not interested. If asked why, this is where your own relationship with the person comes into play. You should not be afraid to let them know that you feal a christian connection with the people they hope to evangelize!! As the other poster mentioned, how would they feal if you tried to do the same to them? It is perfectly normal and good for you to stand up for your faith when asked to. This does not mean you have to attack the person for their actions, however do not fear defending Orthodoxy. If the saints and apostles could do it, we should not fear ourselves giving just a straight answer to a very clear cut question.

Hristos Voskrese,
~Bogdan

[Nina]

From Elder Paisios of Mount Athos:

"That which is asked of every Orthodox person is to instill a 'good uneasiness' into the heterodox, that they might understand that they are in delusion. This is so they will not falsely calm their conscience and thus be deprived in this life of the rich blessings of Orthodoxy and in the life to come of the even greater and eternal blessings of God." p.131-2


Precious Vessels of the Holy Spirit

[Chris Manaras]

Dear Chris:
I will let Maria defend herself, but I don't think this is what she is saying.

I can show love to others as I am able. I recently attended an RC funeral. Out of love I attended. Out of love I sang the songs, Out of love I prayed and cried with them. Out of obedience, I did NOT take communion.




Maria,

I mean no attack in what I posted. I hope you do not perceive it as such.


Paul,

I attend services regularly with my wife and her family at our local RC parish and they attend with me and my family to the GO parish. Attending services like this has given each of us a richer understanding of the traditions we were each raised with, and moreso, an vast respect for the others.

We do not judge eachother's beliefs and/or tradition as either right or wrong because that is not for us to judge. And like you, receiving Communion is one instance where we respect eachother's belief while maintaining our own. That is the point I wished to make. Each instance for each person is inherently different.

[Xenia Rose]

I am also a convert and no one else in my family is Orthodox. I attend therefore many nonOrthodox weddings and funerals. (so far, no baptism as most of my family are not actively involved in a church or the ones who are are well past having babies.)

During my conversion process I had a bad spell with being obnoxious and showing my "convertitis" (over zealotry without full orthodox praxis to counteract it.) As a result I lost my most active Christian friends. I am always glad to hear about someone who did not make the same mistake I did and who kept Christian friends or who have made Christian friends.

Keeping the friendship active does not, imo, mean that you need to go to events that would make you uncomfortable. Just as I would not invite a nonOrthodox person to "Forgiveness Sunday" as their first visit, I think it is not always best that we be invited to missionary events to typical Orthodox countries. If the invitation came out, I think it is fair to say "Well, thanks but that would make me uncomfortable... because..." But to explain in a way that does not offend the inviter.

I personally do not want to attend a regular worship service at a nonOrthodox church or a bible study there. I think I might react more negatively to this because I am a convert. I rejected other forms of worship and just can't imagine ever being involved in them again. I also know the pull of emotions some of the "contemporary" worship can bring out in me and I don't feel it would be a good place for me.

Praying with nonOrthodox in other settings is more challenging to me. I firmly believe that they are praying to the same Trinity I am so I don't want to make it appear that I believe otherwise by not appearing to pray with them. But at the same time, I can not usually agree with the words of the prayer led by some Protestants especially. (Or by a family member with ideas that fall outside of normal Christian concepts who regularly leads prayers over a meal at thanksgiving or other holiday.)

I do as others state here, if the names of the Holy Trinity are said aloud, I cross myself. Otherwise, I direct my attention to something low in front of me (example, the edge of the table or the floor near my feet) and say the Jesus Prayer or the Lord's Prayer, etc. I don't say "amen" outloud. But it is uncomfortable as I sense that others might feel that I do agree with the prayer and I don't like giving this false idea. But at the same time, I don't want to cause a conflict especially with elder family members.

Of course, this all is discussed with my Spiritual Father who I think is wonderful and wise. He has not given me much direction about this matter other then what I describe to him sounds reasonable.

[Maria Murray]

So many replies! I really appreciate everyone's thoughts on this.

Chris, I am trying to learn a lesson from your post. Please forgive me if I came across arrogant. It didn't even occur to me to think that the word "Baptist" can be offensive. Again, I am sorry. I am not asking if I should stop being her friend, but if it's wrong to support a Protestant mission in Orthodox lands. If we love someone with different beliefs, does that mean we participate and support their particular cause? That was basically my question.

I have consulted the Priest about this and he basically said it was okay to attend social events, but there's no reason to be subjected to being recruited into their cause. He advised to tell I'm happy and would not consider abandoning my faith. Also he said,
"Don't ever feel like you should have to defend your faith to anyone. But be willing to say: does your (her) faith have a creed? does she know the historical dogmas of her faith?"

Now I must go and figure out how to balance this out practically...

[Chris Manaras]

Chris, I am trying to learn a lesson from your post. Please forgive me if I came across arrogant. It didn't even occur to me to think that the word "Baptist" can be offensive. Again, I am sorry. ...

Maria,

To forgive you would mean that I had at some point prior judged you "wrong", wouldn't it?

I am a participating member in a recovery group and one of the things I have learned is to graciously accept others comments and sugestions when they challenge me to look deeper within myself. Strangely enough, the answers are always there, but more often, we as humans tend to look where we know we will not find answers.




Now I must go and figure out how to balance this out practically...

Just remember, you are responsible for yourself and you are responsible to others. And the situation will unfold as it should.

[Linda]

(Hi, I'm new here.)

This...


From Elder Paisios of Mount Athos:

"That which is asked of every Orthodox person is to instill a 'good uneasiness' into the heterodox, that they might understand that they are in delusion. This is so they will not falsely calm their conscience and thus be deprived in this life of the rich blessings of Orthodoxy and in the life to come of the even greater and eternal blessings of God." p.131-2

Precious Vessels of the Holy Spirit

and this...


We do not judge eachother's beliefs and/or tradition as either right or wrong because that is not for us to judge.

Seem totally opposite to me.

???

[Elena]

As someone who grew up Orthodox in England I confess I have never had any problems with attending Protestant or any other religious service. Like many in my family I went to church schools and quite naturally attended both protestant and catholic services when I went to those schools. I sang in their choirs and recited the lords prayer with my schoolmates every morning.
As a child I was taught never to refuse an invitation to a place of worship (except mormons and christian scientist, my mother's request due to strange experiences that she had had) and have attended many services.

When coming to university I was surprised and somewhat amused to discover that I was a target for 'conversion' and as such attended talks and lectures which were designed to be conversion events. In attending these events and talking to my friends they came to understand that I wasn't really conversion material. Some of them attended litergy with me and realised they had quite alot of misconceptions about the Church.

I went as an orthodox christian and still do, to baptisms, weddings etc. and all my friends accept this. There are occassionally difficulties, but so far I have always managed to be quietly truthfull in my responses. At a pinch I can always start reciting the Jesus Prayer, or sometimes concentrate on the day's gospel.

I rarely miss services at Church to visit others, never take communion, skip the fililoque and sometimes unfortunatly discomfort people in the churches I visit by crossing myself quite alot and declining to remove my hat. I could be very wrong in my approach, I've never really thought that much about it. However I have to say I don't see any contradiction in the two quotes above. I try to witness the truth of the church where ever I am, but I've never felt required to judge. I am not the epitome of the Church, I'm not it a position to judge anyone, I'm just blessed to be in the Church. My personal observation has been that if people feel they are being judged they close up and can become very defensive, even aggressive which doesn't do any of us any good.

[Linda]

I rarely miss services at Church to visit others, never take communion, skip the fililoque and sometimes unfortunatly discomfort people in the churches I visit by crossing myself quite alot and declining to remove my hat. ...However I have to say I don't see any contradiction in the two quotes above. I try to witness the truth of the church where ever I am, but I've never felt required to judge. I am not the epitome of the Church, I'm not it a position to judge anyone, .....

The quotes to which you are referring are:

From Elder Paisios of Mount Athos:

"That which is asked of every Orthodox person is to instill a 'good uneasiness' into the heterodox, that they might understand that they are in delusion. This is so they will not falsely calm their conscience and thus be deprived in this life of the rich blessings of Orthodoxy and in the life to come of the even greater and eternal blessings of God." p.131-2

Precious Vessels of the Holy Spirit

and


We do not judge eachother's beliefs and/or tradition as either right or wrong because that is not for us to judge.

(emphasis mine)

Nothing was said about judging people.

You do judge the beliefs and traditions at the other churches as wrong because you "...never take communion, skip the fililoque and sometimes unfortunatly discomfort people in the churches I visit by crossing myself quite alot and declining to remove my hat..."

See what I mean?

How can we choose the Orthodox Church without judging other beliefs/traditions as in error ("wrong")?

[Herman Blaydoe]

How can we choose the Orthodox Church without judging other beliefs/traditions as in error ("wrong")?

Simple. We don't judge the people, period. That is between them and God. But we can discern between truth and falsehood, even as the Apostles constantly admonished. We avoid "other gospels" as the Apostle Paul advises. We hold fast to what has been given us by words and Holy Scriptures. We keep to what has been revealed, and are ready to defend the hope that is in us when challenged.

[Linda]

Simple. We don't judge the people, period. That is between them and God. But we can discern between truth and falsehood, even as the Apostles constantly admonished. We avoid "other gospels" as the Apostle Paul advises. We hold fast to what has been given us by words and Holy Scriptures. We keep to what has been revealed, and are ready to defend the hope that is in us when challenged.

Once again, I must point out no one has said anything about judging people (I guess you could add a period to that :-)).

I will emphasize again to hopefully avoid more confusion.


How can we choose the Orthodox Church without judging other beliefs/traditions as in error ("wrong")?

It says "beliefs/traditions." It does not say "people." OK? :-)

[Mary]

I will emphasize again to hopefully avoid more confusion.


How can we choose the Orthodox Church without judging other beliefs/traditions as in error ("wrong")?

It says "beliefs/traditions." It does not say "people." OK? :-)

Hi Linda,

You can 'judge' other beliefs and traditions without judging the people who follow it. It's also called 'testing'. But, keep it personal - test your own beliefs and traditions, against the Orthodox church, test the beliefs and traditions of the Orthodox Church against your own. The one that is True, will stand the testing.

The reason I say 'test your own' is because we're all taught in so many different ways and we still personalize it further in our own way. So, really, it's your personal 'wrestling match' with God. In order to do that, I had to put my own beliefs in court too, testing them both side by side, with the same questions and the same approach. The Orthodox teachings and traditions were far more consistent and because of the consistency, they turned out to be far more logical.

But logic can only get you as far as the gate. My final decision was to decide if I was just following a superior logic, or God. That's where faith comes in... and then, you leap... Quite simple really. Extremely scary, because there's no way you can know what you're leaping into. But, as you go through the baptism or Christmation and come out on the other side, you realize that even if people had told you what it was like, you couldn't have understood. You just know, you made the right choice.

In Christ,

Mary.

[Linda]

Hi Linda,

You can 'judge' other beliefs and traditions without judging the people who follow it. It's also called 'testing'. But, keep it personal - test your own beliefs and traditions, against the Orthodox church, test the beliefs and traditions of the Orthodox Church against your own. The one that is True, will stand the testing.

The reason I say 'test your own' is because we're all taught in so many different ways and we still personalize it further in our own way. So, really, it's your personal 'wrestling match' with God. In order to do that, I had to put my own beliefs in court too, testing them both side by side, with the same questions and the same approach. The Orthodox teachings and traditions were far more consistent and because of the consistency, they turned out to be far more logical.

But logic can only get you as far as the gate. My final decision was to decide if I was just following a superior logic, or God. That's where faith comes in... and then, you leap... Quite simple really. Extremely scary, because there's no way you can know what you're leaping into. But, as you go through the baptism or Christmation and come out on the other side, you realize that even if people had told you what it was like, you couldn't have understood. You just know, you made the right choice.

In Christ,

Mary.

Thanks Mary.

So, in order to choose the Orthodox Church, we must accept its (her?) beliefs/traditions as correct or right, and other beliefs/traditions as in error or wrong.

That's just the way it is.

So, when we choose to reject Protestantism or Roman Catholicism, we are in fact judging those beliefs/traditions as in error or wrong.

There is nothing wrong with that.

We are not judging another person's ultimate state before God, but we are judging the beliefs/traditions as in error ("wrong").

This is my understanding.

[Elena]

Nothing was said about judging people.

You do judge the beliefs and traditions at the other churches as wrong because you "...never take communion, skip the fililoque and sometimes unfortunatly discomfort people in the churches I visit by crossing myself quite alot and declining to remove my hat..."

See what I mean?

How can we choose the Orthodox Church without judging other beliefs/traditions as in error ("wrong")?

Dear Linda,

I see what you mean, I suppose when I think of the word judgement I think of it as a negative reaction, or denegration of someone or in this case their beliefs and traditions. I believe the Church is the best, the straightest way to God and so try to live within it, I suppose that is a judgement although I've not really thought of it as such. However I don't think my postive personal judgements imply a negative judgement on other people. Take something quite silly for example - I wear hats in church, always have, that is my choice, my judgement as you would say. However in making that choice I hope I am not making any judgement on others who don't. You might say that I have made a judgement on hat wearing but am not judging the people who don't wear them, but I don't think that's the case. I don't see any reason why other people should make the same choice as me.

On the more serious question of embracing the Church I am of course sad that so many of the people I love do not have the blessing, the joy of the Church. However I don't think that sadness or my knowledge of my own good fortune should lead me to depreciate the churches in which they do strive to know God. If wish they had made the same choice as me, but as I am not privy to their relationship with God how can I do anything else but pray they come to the same blessing as myself and witness to the truth of the Church. If you consider this a judgement then I suppose I do judge, but I have not previously considered it as such and hence saw no contradiction between the two statements.

In Christ,

Elena

[Linda]

Dear Linda,

I see what you mean, I suppose when I think of the word judgement I think of it as a negative reaction, or denegration of someone or in this case their beliefs and traditions. I believe the Church is the best, the straightest way to God and so try to live within it, I suppose that is a judgement although I've not really thought of it as such. However I don't think my postive personal judgements imply a negative judgement on other people. Take something quite silly for example - I wear hats in church, always have, that is my choice, my judgement as you would say. However in making that choice I hope I am not making any judgement on others who don't. You might say that I have made a judgement on hat wearing but am not judging the people who don't wear them, but I don't think that's the case. I don't see any reason why other people should make the same choice as me.

On the more serious question of embracing the Church I am of course sad that so many of the people I love do not have the blessing, the joy of the Church. However I don't think that sadness or my knowledge of my own good fortune should lead me to depreciate the churches in which they do strive to know God. If wish they had made the same choice as me, but as I am not privy to their relationship with God how can I do anything else but pray they come to the same blessing as myself and witness to the truth of the Church. If you consider this a judgement then I suppose I do judge, but I have not previously considered it as such and hence saw no contradiction between the two statements.

In Christ,

Elena

Thank you Elena.

In an effort to make myself even more clear, allow me to say that the only way we can decide in whom to "instill a 'good uneasiness'" is to judge their beliefs/traditions as in error ("wrong").

How could we even use the word "heterodox" if we cannot have a definition of what is considered outside of the Truth?

If we do not judge the beliefs/traditions of Protestantism or Roman Catholicism as in error/wrong, we cannot see those holding such beliefs/traditions as heterodox.

To decide that one thing is right is necessarily to "judge" the rest as in error/wrong.

I believe we should not be afraid of those words or react to them without considering the context.

My concern is being so timid about them that we run the risk of the heterodox having the impression that the Orthodox Church has no firm beliefs -- that she embraces the post-modern concept that "there are no ultimate truths."

How can one be Orthodox and say they do not judge the beliefs/traditions of their heterodox spouse as wrong?

To judge a person's beliefs/traditions as wrong is NOT the same as judging that persons ultimate standing before God.

In the same vein, we cannot say that just because we do not judge the person, we automatically also do not judge their beliefs/traditions.

They are two separate things.

Let us not be afraid to say we judge heterodox beliefs/traditions as "in error" or "wrong" even when those beliefs are held by someone we hold dear -- especially then.

How can we attempt to "instill a 'good uneasiness'" if we do not judge/recognize their beliefs/traditions as in error/wrong?

[Mary]

Thanks Mary.

So, in order to choose the Orthodox Church, we must accept its (her?) beliefs/traditions as correct or right, and other beliefs/traditions as in error or wrong.

That's just the way it is.

Yes, in order to choose the Orthodox Church, we accept ALL of her beliefs/traditions as correct.


So, when we choose to reject Protestantism or Roman Catholicism, we are in fact judging those beliefs/traditions as in error or wrong.

Not necessarily, WRONG. It depends a lot on the denomination that you grew up in. I grew up with conservative teachers. Most of the stuff I've believed all my life, I haven't found to be wrong within the orthodox tradition either. But, I did see that my beliefs - some more than others - were incomplete. Only a few were totally wrong.

Sort of like, if you have a puzzle and you don't have it in it's original box, you have no clue what the picture is, but you can still put it together. It's going to be a lot harder, and if all the pieces are exactly the same, everyone will come up with a different end result. Then you have those pieces that just don't fit anywhere, but you keep working at it, and you find that many pieces are missing, which is why you have those pieces that don't fit. Well - the Orthodox church not only has all the pieces, it also has the original box with the picture and instructions on how to put it all together.**

So - the Roman Catholics aren't wrong, and neither are the Protestants. For that matter, neither are the Hindus and the Buddhists and Muslims, etc. They all have some truth in them, somewhere. We worked among an animistic tribe in Ethiopia, and they had a ceremony that the boys went through to become true men. They called that ceremony "Being born again". For a people who don't even have a word for God, it was interesting that they had such a key phrase that's totally identical to what Jesus said to Nicodemus.

In Christ,
Mary.

**This is my paraphrasing of an illustration by St Irenaues - I heard it on the "Our Life in Christ" radio shows. If anyone knows the illustration, please post it! It's totally beautiful the way he says it. Of course he doesn't talk about puzzles - he talks about a mosaic that's taken apart.

[Elena]

Dear Linda,

I think it is quite possible that we don't in practise disagree, maybe it is more a question of the language we use. Your say that

"My concern is being so timid about them that we run the risk of the heterodox having the impression that the Orthodox Church has no firm beliefs -- that she embraces the post-modern concept that "there are no ultimate truths.""

I couldn't agree more, but I don't think that anyone who knows me is in any doubt whatsoever that I do not embrace such a concept. I'm not afraid of sharing the teachings of the Church nor pointing out differences when people would like to pretend there are none. I hope I've never failed to witness the truths I love. It doesn't sound to me as though anyone else in this thread is in danger of alowing those around them to fall into this misconception either. However it would seem like others I have done this without using the language of judgement, a language I feel entirely unqualified to use. You seem to feel that this language is essential for you, but it is not surprising we are not all the same. I think you're saying that becasue the Orthodox is the best, everything else must be judge wrong and you feel you must publicly say this in a fairly blunt way in order to witness the truth of the Orthodox Church. I simply do not feel the same way.

You say " the only way we can decide in whom to "instill a 'good uneasiness'" is to judge their beliefs/traditions as in error ("wrong"). " I have never in my life tried to work out in whom I needed to instill a snese of good uneasiness. I trust that by trying to be true to the teachings of the Church, never hiding my beliefs this may be achieved.

[Herman Blaydoe]

There is more to it than correct and wrong. Some things are less correct than others. Some things are less wrong than other things.

If a person is satisfied with what they have, they are not going to respond well to someone telling them they really shouldn't be satisfied after all, or that there is something better. That is why when people feel the need to "share" their faith with me, I simply ask: "how is that working out for you?" If they believe it is working, they are not going to accept me telling them, "well it isn't working for you, you just don't know it."

I simply say "this is what Orthodoxy teaches". Sometimes they respond, sometimes they don't. At that point I follow the advice of St. Theophan the Recluse and simply say, "that is what you believe" and let it drop. Patience and prayer are the only effective tools beyond that point, or so it seems to this bear of little brain. Your mileage may vary.

[Trudy]

How can we attempt to "instill a 'good uneasiness'" if we do not judge/recognize their beliefs/traditions as in error/wrong?

I would suggest it is not "we" who instill anything. We witness to what the Orthodox Church holds to be true. We pray for God to bless them. It is the work of Holy Spirit God to "instill a good uneasiness" in them.

~Athanasia~

[Nina]

Dear Linda,

In addition to what Athanasia said above, I would like to add that at least one Saint of the Orthodox Church views instilling "'good uneasiness' into the heterodox" as an act of love, actually of divine love:

"The fight against heresies represents the highest expression of love for the heretics while the tolerance and the amnesty for heresy is a cruel form of love and overmasked hate. In the realm of false ecumenism (branch theory) lurks the worse case of 'man hatefullness'. Thus, it is not without significance that St. Maximos the Confessor issued a statement condemning the tolerance of heretics. 'I define this to be cruelty towards mankind and absence of divine love to attempt to give authority to a false faith aiding even more the destruction of those that are adhering to it'. " Archimandrite Spiridon Bilalis

One of my most favorite sayings ever is: "True wealth, for me, is to see you in the Kingdom of Heaven." Father Amphilochios

I love people! I see them on the street and the first thought that crosses my mind is not: "What is their religion?" I simply love them and think how nicely they behave, or how pleasant they are.

If I have the pleasure to get to know someone even more, I still do not think of their religion, but of their persona and how attracted to their unique personality I feel. Religion might, or might not come up during discussion, however I would really love to see that person in Heaven and if they express interest I would love to share the Treasure of Orthodoxy with them. Actually I view this (in addition to an act of love) as a philanthropic and charitable act. If I give something to a beggar, I do not judge him (God forbid!). Actually my soul aches for him, because I can not do more... because I am not good enough to do more. I do not even think I save him with my miniature "charity", because God does the saving and He takes our 0.000...1 cent and turns it into a true wealth. I simply fulfill my duty at the moment that I am blessed to cross paths with him; help according to my abilities and thank God for making me worthy to have that person in my life. Same applies to what Geronda Paisios says (and many Orthodox Saints) about such matters. However I have to place that 0.000...1 cent in the hands, or in the soul of that person (it is my duty!), because as a wonderful Orthodox Archbishop has said: "God blesses and multiplies our tiny contribution, but not zero!" Think loaves and fish.

I was blessed to have some other people (regardless if they are family, or not-since in Orthodoxy we are all members of Christ's Body and thus a family) share Orthodoxy with me. I, in return, have the same duty and obligation: to expose to Orthodoxy as many souls as I can if God wills it. At the beginning , middle and the end He is the Judge. I love Orthodoxy and people more than much, not to introduce them to each other! :)

Love,
Nina

P.S Thank you for your PM! Please forgive me for not replying to your post sooner, (I did not mean to ignore you). I have been away.

[Father David Moser]

I never know what the right thing to do is in situations with my very close friends that continually invite me to participate in Protestant events.
...
- Is it wrong to participate in non-Orthodox religious happenings?

I'd like to share something that I just wrote that touches on this question:


"Praying with heretics" is a problematic phrase since it is never
actually defined. Most people seem to assume that "praying with
heretics" means that we somehow cannot pray in the presence of a
heretic - which is of course ridiculous. I doubt that most people
really believe this, but for some on this and other similar forums, it
makes a nice strawman around which to build a catastrophy and cry out
that the sky is falling.

The phrase "praying with heretics" actually has a directional
component which is usually ignored in these discussions. It is true
that we are instructed not to "pray with heretics". This means we are
not to join in with the prayers of heretics. We cannot join *their*
prayers. However, I have never heard anyone instruct us not to allow
heretics to "pray with" us - that is to join in our prayers. These
are not equivalent statements (an assumption that many seems to wish
to make).

We cannot "pray with heretics" that is we cannot join in *their*
prayers. Why is this? In our prayers our faith is expressed. When
we join in the prayers of heretics, we join in the expression of their
heretical belief. Duh. But when heretics come and pray with us, they,
by implication, leave their heresy behind and express the true faith.
Thus there is nothing wrong with having "heretics" or "pagans" or
"new age whatevers" in our services - just by being there and praying
with us, they are exposed to the true faith and a seed of the faith is
planted in their hearts. Will that seed grow and bear fruit - that is
a question to which we may never know the answer. But we do know
that our Lord sees each of these hearts and desires their salvation.
As the Gospel tells us - one sows and another reaps.

By this same understanding, there is no automatic injury in being
present in a non-Orthodox (heretical if you must) worship service.
Simple presence does not imply "joining in the prayers" (thus going to
weddings, funerals, special events in a non-Orthodox family members
"church" has no intrinsic sin) In such a situation, however, it is
imperative that we "guard our hearts" by our own prayers (the Jesus
Prayer, the Our Father, reciting the psalms etc) so that a stray
"seed" of heresy might not find its way into the field of our own soul.

Praying "with" someone cannot be defined as praying "in the presence
of" someone but rather demands an act of the will - choosing to join
in their expression of belief. So we can have heterodox, heretics,
pagans, and atheists in our Churches and still our prayer is not
affected. We can even be in their services and as long as we guard
our heart with our own prayers, there is no harm.

[Thomas Carroll]

Dear Father David,

Your blessing. You wrote:


By this same understanding, there is no automatic injury in being
present in a non-Orthodox (heretical if you must) worship service.
Simple presence does not imply "joining in the prayers" (thus going to
weddings, funerals, special events in a non-Orthodox family members
"church" has no intrinsic sin) In such a situation, however, it is
imperative that we "guard our hearts" by our own prayers (the Jesus
Prayer, the Our Father, reciting the psalms etc) so that a stray
"seed" of heresy might not find its way into the field of our own soul.

How can we determine when our presence at heterodox services is blameless and when it is not? I have the following particular concern: can Orthodox schoolteachers teaching in schools governed by heterodox communities be present blamelessly at religious services held in those schools? I would be most interested in your judgment (and that of others) regarding such situations, whether an Orthodox Christian can conduct himself faithfully at such events or whether he must separate himself from them.

Asking your paternal prayers and blessings,
Thomas

[Chris Manaras]

Once again, I must point out no one has said anything about judging people (I guess you could add a period to that :-)).

....
It says "beliefs/traditions." It does not say "people." OK? :-)

Most people equate their religion (consiously or otherwise) with their sense of self.

Examine the simple statement:
I am Orthodox.


It seems to me that this statement is quite a limitting view of one's self.

[Chris Manaras]

How can we determine when our presence at heterodox services is blameless and when it is not? I have the following particular concern: can Orthodox schoolteachers teaching in schools governed by heterodox communities be present blamelessly at religious services held in those schools?


Thomas,

My wife to be and her daughters follow the RC tradition and her daughters used to attend Catholic school.

My sons and I follow the GO tradition.

I spoke with my priest about this "dilema" I found my self in when others close to me outright objected to me taking my sons to RC mass. His responce was simple:

1. We all attend services as a family, period.
2. We never plant seeds of contempt for each other's tradition and cause someone to fall.
3. When we are at Mass, my sons and I worship as much as possible as if in an Orthodox Church.
4. When we are at Liturgy, the girls and my fiancee worship as much as possible as in they were in a Catholic Church.
5. We make sure we go to both, regularly.
6. We focus on the similarites, not the differences.

Yes, some people at Mass look at me funny when I cross myself frequently or don't file in to receive Communion or blessing. And just imagine some of the looks the girls get when they cross themselves "backwards" or kneel down when entering or exiting pews at the Orthodox chuch. My priest, however, commended their proper RC conduct while in his church.


I can feel that this is troubling you greatly. Stay true to what you have been taught.

And may I suggest this for reading and perhaps look at the photo galary as well:
http://www.ecupatriarchate.org/press/articles.php?id=99

[Father David Moser]

How can we determine when our presence at heterodox services is blameless and when it is not?

The only answer to this question is pastoral. There is no "rule' that you can unfailingly follow in this, you need to talk with your own priest and ask him to guide you.

Fr David Moser

[Rick H.]

The only answer to this question is pastoral. There is no "rule' that you can unfailingly follow in this, you need to talk with your own priest and ask him to guide you.

Fr David Moser




I must say that I very much appreciate and strongly agree with what Father David has said here, for two reasons. I have not been too interested in this thread up to this point for the very reason that there appears to be an undercurrent in the thinking in some of the posts that a guidebook of sorts could be produced. However, firstly, there is "no 'rule,'" just as Father has said, and secondly, the above speaks of a genuine spiritual direction. A genuine spiritual direction will not ignore or overlook the individual needs (and weaknesses) of the one(s) being directed. And, now I am thinking of the words of another who speaks to this situation by saying, watch out for, beware of the so called spiritual director who would overlook the individual needs, and, "have standard answers which are 'hard sayings' that admit no exception and no mitigation and are always the same, no matter how the case may be altered by circumstances." This concept is developed more fully, but concludes with the final point that so called spiritual directors, as these, "thus, they take satisfaction in secretly indulging their aggressive instincts." But, now, I have left this topic and should stop here, opting to continue this in another thread in the near future (viz. An American Monasticism?).

In Christ,
Rick

[Antony Solomon]

perhaps the question could be looked at from a wider point of view. What would I do, as a Christian, if i was invited to a Moslem Mosque, or a Sikh Temple, or a Jewish Synagogue? I would be happy to go, I would go on the understanding that it is not my religion, and that I am an observer, and that my being there was not condoning a relativist point of view - we're all religious together - and that it might well lead to good questions after, 'What did you think about...?' If I was in such a place, when they said their prayers, i would say mine. I think they would appreciate that I hold my beliefs sincerely, just as I viewed them the same way. Dialogue starts with recognising our diffrences, not papering over them. Just as i might invite a non-believer to church, knowing they can't say 'amen' to the prayers in a true sense, so the same applies across the divides within Christendom - although all in love of course.

My tuppence worth, anyone got change for a fiver?

[Antony Solomon]

Therein is the big issue Fr. David. Many Evangelical Protestants do not believe that Roman Catholics or Orthodox are Christian. Many think that we "worship idols, don't believe that we have the freedom to approach God in prayer without an intermediary (the priest), and other such nonsense. The most important isse is that we haven't prayed the salvation prayer thus have no hope of eternity with God." Thus we need to be corrected.

Lord have mercy on us all!

Athanasia

This is all true, there is so much ignorance out there. It's a closed in world of them and us (but not unlke other varieties of them and us); contact is the best way of dispelling myths and erroneous views. Attending with a friend, or through a general invite is a way of showing you don't have two heads!

[Celinda Grace]

You do judge the beliefs and traditions at the other churches as wrong because you "...never take communion, skip the fililoque and sometimes unfortunatly discomfort people in the churches I visit by crossing myself quite alot and declining to remove my hat..."

How can we choose the Orthodox Church without judging other beliefs/traditions as in error ("wrong")?


Living by your own convictions, which it seems to me is what Elena is saying, is not judging others wrong so much as holding to the truth you believe.
Most people respect those who hold by their own relgious convictions even in uncomfortable situations.

I hardly feel judged by the fact that someone else believes different from me. I expect them to.


"Most people equate their religion (consiously or otherwise) with their sense of self."

This seems to me the main issue. As long as our sense of self is in our religion rather then firmly grounded in God we feel insecure about our religion. This causes us to feel uncomforable and insecure in situations where we are in contact with other religious traditions. It may cause us to be agressive or defensive or judgemental when dealing with others.

Really the problem of judging comes not from living by our own truth, but when, because of our own insecurity, we judge that someone from another tradition is prejudice or judging us because we are different.

A good uneasiness is instilled in others when you are confident in who you are and what you believe, and when you live out what you believe. Then those who are looking can see the truth in you.

[Nina]

I'd like to share something that I just wrote that touches on this question:

Dear Father Moser,
Your Blessings!

Thank you for what you wrote because it elaborates what Orthodox believe and should believe. What you say about having the non-Orthodox attending our services, it is actually considered as philoxenia (hospitality) (it is a great honor, pleasure and duty for us to welcome all in our Church and services) and the seed as you say may, or may not bear fruit, but we have a duty to be hospitable to all strangers everywhere we are and try to emulate our Patriarch Abraham. It amazes me that along with speaking so strongly about protecting orphans and widows, so many Orthodox Saints emphasize so much the philoxenia for the strangers. Because it is indeed a duty we all have. We are simply servants in the service of God and using His gifts to us all and His provisions (material, or spiritual). We can not deny His gifts to others.

And as you say we respect and attend non-Orthodox events because it is not only courteous and graceful, but also human. We live in the same world after all; and people from other religions pray all the time around us! (I have been so many times in areas where you can hear very clearly the Muslim prayers from minaret and actually if it was not punctual I missed it because it often served as a time reminder for me. Or God knows how many Bar-Mitzvah and Bat-Mitzvah I have attended.) Let say we are riding the same bus with a non-Orthodox and he is praying (and we do not even know it, or we may know it) - this does not mean that because we are in the same space we are participating in non-Orthodox prayer; it does not mean betrayal of Orthodoxy and the Saints do not speak of this. Saints speak about flirting with other religions, or heresies in the name of love, about betrayal of Orthodoxy in the name of love, and about a duty for all of us Orthodox to Orthodox missions (as Elder Paisios says instill the good uneasiness).

Also we should not contribute financially to other religions' missions. I have seen too many cases of non-Orthodox trying to proselytize cradle Orthodox children from poor, rural areas (giving chocolates, candies or a pen and telling them not to make the sign of cross ever, or to make it the "right" way ie in a non-Orthodox way etc.) not to speak up about this. I did not post this before in the thread because I did not want to judge those who proselytize, but at this point I think it is appropriate because it serves the distinction.

[Herman Blaydoe]

What would I do, as a Christian, if i was invited to a Moslem Mosque, or a Sikh Temple, or a Jewish Synagogue?

I think it would depend greatly on WHY you were invited to their temple. If it is for a special occasion like a wedding or a Bar Mitzvah, that is one thing. If it is simply for "worship" then you are really under no obligation to attend. All things are lawful, according to the Apostle Paul, but not all things edify. Beyond that I believe it becomes a matter of conscience, and the advice of your priest, whatever it might be, would probably the best to follow.

[John Charmley]

Dear Brothers and Sister in Christ,

Way back in post no 4. Trudy raised one of the important points about the difficulties often mentioned here when she wrote
Many Evangelical Protestants do not believe that Roman Catholics or Orthodox are Christian. Many think that we "worship idols, don't believe that we have the freedom to approach God in prayer without an intermediary (the priest), and other such nonsense. The most important issue is that we haven't prayed the salvation prayer thus have no hope of eternity with God." Thus we need to be corrected.

It is sad that anyone should have such a strange view of Orthodoxy. Since many of us live in a society where Protestants out number Orthodox (and the fortunate ones who do not, just be thankful) it is always useful when we have an opportunity to correct such misapprehensions by inviting those with whom we may have been worshippers in the past to our new worship so that they can see for themselves what it is we now do. We have less, if any, need to go back to where we were - that, after all, was what we left.

It is obviously different for those fortunate enough to be cradle-Orthodox, who can take some of the excellent advice on offer here. For those of us who have converted, we know what it was we left - and why. If some of those we left would like to attend one of our events, that, as has been said, is an excellent opportunity to break down the prejudices cited above.

In Christ,

John

[Louis A. Morrone]

Shouldn't people concentrate upon Christ's love and God's forgiveness, rather than judging other Christian faiths? Frankly, anyone who worries about going to a different church's function must have serious doubts about their beliefs. Sounds like Maria should do some soul searching and figure out what she actually believes in.

What concerns me most is that people wonder why in places like Iraq Muslims can't get along, and then you look around and see people not wanting to socialize with fellow Christians...

I'm ignorant of most of what goes on here, but don't you think people should think about what's most important? If you are thinking thoughts that couldn't come from a child, maby you should question them.

[Xenia Rose]

I don't think anyone here judged other people's faith here at all. What we are talking about is the importance of making sure we do not drift in our own believes due to peer or cultural pressures and also that we do not condone false teachings.

Those false beliefs are not about judgement either. God judges, not us. We testify to our faith in God by staying true to our beliefs as given to us by Christ and the Apostles at the start of our Church. History has resulted in much seperation where now there are millions who do not understand what Christ taught and have new interpretations of bible passages and new innovations in practices.

God loves all of these millions of people just as much as He loves me and the people in my Church. He wants their salvation just as much as He wants our salvation. Therefore, we do not judge their salvation.

Instead, we remain true to our Church by not endorcing practices and beliefs that are contrary to it. We maintain our Church by also not letting ourselves drift away. It would be my hope that all would unite themselves to our Church, but I am realistic and know that there will be many who will not wish to. However, if I do not remain true to my faith and encourage other EO's to do so, we will not have the Church that we would like all to unite to left. It would change to suit the latest craze, the latest fashion of worship, the latest beliefs based on the latest best seller.

[Maria Murray]

Thank you everyone for sharing your thoughts and advice. It really helps to see things from everyone's perspective.

Louis, having had the experience of drifting away from Orthodoxy into the dramatically different Protestanism and having recently returned, I am only in a place where I'm just beginning to learn humility and willingness to submit. For that reason, I am not actively pursuing "judging" of other faiths but only learning to react appropriately when repeatedly asked to endorce, participate and contribute to the causes outside of Holy Orthodoxy.

I completely agree that it's loving to attend weddings, funeral etc (which I always do) or even that it's not necessarily bad to "pray with heretics" as Fr. David said. For me, the question rises when I'm personally asked to donate to non-Orthodox missionaries trying to "convert" Orthodox Russians or go out on "roads and highways" to stop people and preach the 4 spiritual laws.

I'm still learning to focus on my own sins and not to judge my brother, but I'm also taught to hold on to the Orthodox faith as the true faith. To me, that includes having to identify what is of Orthodoxy and what is not. Not to judge someone else, but to guard myself from falling away or from contributing to the cause of having others fall away.

About confidence. This is a tricky thing for me. It's one thing to be confident in knowing Orthodoxy is the right path, it's another to be confident that I am actually fully following that path. I recall something read recently in the Gospel that if you think you see then you are really blind. In my experience, when I feel "confident" I am following the path, that's when I'm actually stuck in the delusion of pride.