Can one be Orthodox without attending an orthodox church?

[Antony Solomon]

Apolgies if this is the wrong forum, but there doesn't seem to be a basic enquiries forum, esp for newbies.

It is unlikely that I can attend an Orthodox church in the immediate future. What sort of provision and alowances and expectations are laid on people in such a circumstance, who are seeking orthodoxy, but not geographically near a church?

[Peter Farrington]

Dear Antony

You can be becoming more Orthodox at any time and in any place.

Begin to pray Orthodox prayers, read the Fathers, learn about the spiritual practices of the Church, keep in contact with some Orthodox and can ask advice from. Start praying the Jesus Prayer. Visit when you can.

Indeed this is why the British Orthodox Church started the British Orthodox Fellowship (http://www.britishorthodox.org/fellowship.php), so that people who are in other Christian communities could become more Orthodox in their own circumstances.

Best wishes

Peter

[Paul Fowler]

My apologies Anthony, I should have replied earlier. I know that you have no transport but we have members who live in Ashby de la Zouch, who may be able to get you a lift to the Nottingham Parish. If you can get to Rugby there is an active Parish there. Oxford has a number of lively Parishes-the Greek with Bp Kallistos, Russian with Fr Stephan Platt, Amphipolis with Bp Basil. London cant be too far away and you are spoilt for choice there.

It seems that it is often the way that at this moment in time, it is common for Orthodox to travel-our deacon lives near Pontefract which is an hour and a half from Nottingham and recently at the Eucharistic Community of St Paulinus of York in Newark, a couple turned up who lived in Boston-forty miles away!!

There is a Parish in Berkhampstead, Herts, and Eucharistic Community in St Albans. Are any of these places near to you? If so I could send you deatils


Paul

[Father David Moser]

It is certainly possible to hold Orthodox beliefs and never go to an Orthodox Church, however, it is not possible to be a part of the Church, united organically to her without actually having some contact with her. We are not saved separately but together, our salvation is communal and thus it is essential that we live in community. If you are convinced that Orthodoxy is the pearl of great price, the treasure hidden in the field, then follow the Gospel parable and give all that you possess to obtain it.

Without the Church as our Mother, we cannot have God as our Father.

Fr David

[Mary]

Dear Antony,

I did everything as Peter suggested - started praying the Orthodox prayers, the Jesus prayer, practicing the spiritual disciplines of the church, etc. I wasn't willing to leave my protestant family and I thought I only needed to add to my life all the missing things that are to be found in the Orthodox Church.

This experiment lasted about 3 months, at the end of which I was starting to get really depressed and even claustrophobic on Sundays, when we made out way to church.

We're fortunate, in that we didn't have to travel far to find an orthodox church. We only had to give up our friends, tear away our children from their friends, and start attending a church were there are no other children.

It was worth every bit of 'sacrifice' and even more. I realized that the Church isn't about 'beliefs' that we hold or dont' hold, but it's very real, it's alive, it gives life, it gives strength... everything that as a protestant I only dreamed about and didnt' think was real.

When we were visiting friends last summer, we met someone at their church who said he had to travel 8 hours every weekend, when they first became orthodox. They drove Saturday afternoon, attended vespers, slept somewhere in the church, attended Divine liturgy, and made the 4 hr drive home on Sunday afternoon. They did this with their 4 children, for 3 years, before he was able to get a job closer to church!

I hope you find a church close to you.

In Christ,
Mary

[Paul Cowan]

One of our parishners was about to be transfered and he asked our priest what to do about there not being a parish nearby. I don't know the answer he gave, but he now lives near a parish he can attend.

PC

[Antony Solomon]

Dear Antony,

I did everything as Peter suggested - started praying the Orthodox prayers, the Jesus prayer, practicing the spiritual disciplines of the church, etc. I wasn't willing to leave my protestant family and I thought I only needed to add to my life all the missing things that are to be found in the Orthodox Church.

This experiment lasted about 3 months, at the end of which I was starting to get really depressed and even claustrophobic on Sundays, when we made out way to church.

We're fortunate, in that we didn't have to travel far to find an orthodox church. We only had to give up our friends, tear away our children from their friends, and start attending a church were there are no other children.

It was worth every bit of 'sacrifice' and even more. I realized that the Church isn't about 'beliefs' that we hold or dont' hold, but it's very real, it's alive, it gives life, it gives strength... everything that as a protestant I only dreamed about and didnt' think was real.

When we were visiting friends last summer, we met someone at their church who said he had to travel 8 hours every weekend, when they first became orthodox. They drove Saturday afternoon, attended vespers, slept somewhere in the church, attended Divine liturgy, and made the 4 hr drive home on Sunday afternoon. They did this with their 4 children, for 3 years, before he was able to get a job closer to church!

I hope you find a church close to you.

In Christ,
Mary

Thanks for that Mary.

My problem is that that is what we were doing in our previous church (not quite as far though). there was nothing for the children at all, and in time the wife grew to dislike its cold formality. At this stage I am looking for myself, i can't expect her to uplift again, especially if it means long distance travel. My journey of faith is not the same as my wife's, and you know what they say about leading a horse to water ;)

[Mary]

Thanks for that Mary.

My problem is that that is what we were doing in our previous church (not quite as far though). there was nothing for the children at all, and in time the wife grew to dislike its cold formality. At this stage I am looking for myself, i can't expect her to uplift again, especially if it means long distance travel. My journey of faith is not the same as my wife's, and you know what they say about leading a horse to water ;)


Coming to orthodoxy with a spouse seems to be a bit more complicated. Our priest told us that sometimes the men jump ahead and sometimes it's the women. Sometimes the faster one slows down and then the slower one leaps ahead. Who can say? God works in amazing ways.

We were fortunate. My husband needed LOTS of time to think about it, and he started thinking about it 3 yrs before I even started looking into it. I was able to quit protestantism "cold turkey", so the timing was perfect. But, our relationship wouldn't have survived any extra stress.

While I was thinking about orthodoxy, I remember playing out various scenarios in my mind. I had no clue he had already been thinking about it. It had been a long time since we'd spoken to each other about anything of consequence. So, I decided, if he wasn't willing to go to an orthodox church, I'd just have to go alone. He was surprised that I'd just drop him and the kids and go by myself. I was surprised that he was as ready to go as I was! =)

Horses and water... horses you can lead. But you can't make them drink. People, you can't even lead. But ponies you can... we dragged our kids to every service through Great Lent and Holy Week. They complained everytime we said: "Ok. Time to go!" They slept, annoyed and grumbled through the services. But, when Pascha came, the grace of God swept over them as much as it did over the grown ups and my little 5 yr old was thrilled to find out that the week after was called Bright Week. She kept telling me she was so happy because it was Bright week. When the week ended, she was sad, she thought she'd lose her happiness because Bright week was over.

I asked her why she thought she was happy, if it was because of getting to stay up so late at night, march around the church, eat ice cream at 3 am, easter egg hunts, etc. And she said it had nothing to do with any of that! I told her God was blessing her with His Joy because she was faithful in coming to Church even when she didn't feel like it, and she did try to behave as much as possible.

This experience with the children is so new to me. I've always longed to share with them my own spiritual experiences, but how can anyone do that? I wondered how to make Christmas special and how to make Easter meaningful, but nothing worked. People spoke of 'family traditions' that they had that added meaning to these special times, and I longed to have something like that that would make the kids look forward to these feasts. But it seemed that all family traditions revolved around food and gifts and having fun. I wanted something more, something that would leave a lingering joy and contentment behind - none of which come from food, gifts and fun.

I had no idea that just being in the Church, with no sunday school, no special programs, nothing except the 'same old' traditions of the Church, would meet ALL of our needs, including the kids' and fill us with that elusive joy and contentment! I did nothing to make Pascha special for the kids. I focused on my own needs and I watched thrilled, as God, filled up my kids' hearts. Last Christmas was our first in the Church, and I was so surprised, at my own joy and even more at the kids, who had a lot less presents than the year before, nothing that they'd asked for, and still, they were filled with peace and joy and gratitude.

So, I do not worry anymore about my kids being the only ones in church. Of course, I still hope that there will be others. It's just so nice to see other kids in church and I hope that others with kids will come and stay.

Christ is Risen!

Mary.

[Owen Jones]

Then there is the case of the anonymous wandering pilgrim in "The Way of the Pilgrim." Disgusted by the poor level of preaching in the churches he attended, he proceeded to go on his own spiritual pilgrimage as a parapatetic. LIkely written by a very learned monk in his cell, this nevertheless is the classic text on the matter of being a kind of solitary wanderer. It contains risks, of course, as the spiritual life always does. But because some parishes can actually be deadening to the spirit, we cannot lose sight of our own responsibilities to God and to ourselves for our spiritual development. The problem is that today, frustration over parish life often leads to a kind of religious activism, or sometimes the desire for some kind of religious activism is the root of our disenchantment with parish life. On the other hand, the over-institutionalization of the Church is a common problem today, result on a fixation over the externals. So, yes, we are not damned alone nor saved alone, however there must be room for solitaries and wanderers. We can't stop seeking...

[Elzabet]

Thank you for asking this question. My husband has no interest in Orthodoxy ((although he does not have anything against my pursuit)) and so I have been doing as Peter suggested, "Begin to pray Orthodox prayers, read the Fathers, learn about the spiritual practices of the Church, keep in contact with some Orthodox and can ask advice from. Start praying the Jesus Prayer. Visit when you can."

I honestly believe and pray that my husband will come to the Church so that we can convert as a family, but until then I feel like I am in limbo. The priest at the Orthodox church I sometimes attend said to me that waiting for my dh "is very Orthodox" and I should continue to pray for him.

[John Charmley]

Dear Antony,

Some interesting and helpful answers, but none, I fear quite able to address the specificities of your own situation.

Without private transport (and sometimes even with it) getting to an Orthodox Church, even in a country as relatively small as England, can be something of a problem.

I do hope the advice about reading and praying is of some help; but in the end only more Orthodox communities and more Orthodox Churches can really meet the need you express.

In Christ,

John

[Maria Murray]

Anthony, I can sympathize with your challenge. I am very fortunate to have the transportation so I can't even imagine how hard it would be, but having to balance family and church is something I can relate to. I used to think, I can go to an Orthodox church even if it's hard, but how can I expect to burden my family and drag them along or abandoning them on a Sunday morning? It was the biggest challenge for me. You are right, we cannot force our family into Orthodoxy. My kids are very active and rambunctious and standing through 1.5 - 2 hrs of something they find boring was very hard, not to mention that my husband used to stand and sigh, anxious to leave. We started going only about every 1-2 months and then more frequently. However, over time the kids' attitudes changed dramatically. I can really appreciate what Mary was saying about her kids! I felt guilty bringing kids to so many services during the Holy Week, but toward the end they loved it so much that when we woke up on Bright Monday, my 5-yr-old cried when he found out there's no church. I don't know how old your kids are, but perhaps they can participate, like hold a candle for a gospel reading, sing in the choir? Maybe you can print out some online Orthodox coloring books, check out your church library for kids books. Perhaps you already tried all this, but if your family is used to a very different way of doing church (as mine was), getting used to things one bit at a time might be helpful.

[Antony Solomon]

thanks again everyone.

At the moment I have come across a church in a town 40 miles away - Rugby, John - which I can get to on a local train link. The wife is happy for me to go occasionally, and to take one of the children - we have 4, aged 14, 6, 5, 2. In time, she might be interested to come, but of course, at the moment this is my journey, and I am aware that I tried too hard to get her to follow my journey when we got married and she attended my church, so I have to take it easy this time. And I guess the burden of orthodox family life falls on the wife more as well! But we wait and see, the matter is before the Lord, who can do wondrously - and has done in the past, such as finding me a decent job just as I started full time ministry at my previous church. I'm tempted to shout out a macedonian call, but people have already been very gracious and helpful to me in the short time I have been here, which is a good sign.

Antony

[John Charmley]

Dear Antony,

All the best in your journey; the care and thoughtfulness with which you approach this seem, if I might say so, just right.

In Christ,

John

[Rick H.]

But we wait and see, the matter is before the Lord, who can do wondrously - and has done in the past, such as finding me a decent job just as I started full time ministry at my previous church.



Dear Antony,

May I give a hearty amen to what John has well said. Please know that you and your family are in my prayers.

Love to you and yours.

In Christ,
Rick

[Marie-Duquette]

It is certainly possible to hold Orthodox beliefs and never go to an Orthodox Church, however, it is not possible to be a part of the Church, united organically to her without actually having some contact with her. We are not saved separately but together, our salvation is communal and thus it is essential that we live in community. If you are convinced that Orthodoxy is the pearl of great price, the treasure hidden in the field, then follow the Gospel parable and give all that you possess to obtain it.

Without the Church as our Mother, we cannot have God as our Father.

Fr David

Rev. Father,

Peace of the Risen Christ be with you!

Your post perplexes me somehow. How can you say that "without the Church as our Mother, we cannot have God as our Father?" (my emphasis)

Show us the Father, the Apostles pleaded. Jesus answered them, He who sees me, sees the Father." etc etc etc The Christ, the Annointed One speaks the Truth, points to the Truth, is the Truth ... "to John he said from the Cross, "here is your Mother"; and to Mary His Mother, "Woman, here is your son."
What Faith? what Trust, What Love?

Who is this Woman, Mary; who is this Woman, the Church who gives life, healing, guidance, nurture, and .... who is "silent" at the Heart of this encounter at the foot of the Cross? who is present in the midst of the Apostles at the Cenacle, in prayer, in waiting for the coming of the Paraclete? knowing and yet, not knowing!

You also say that
"It is essential that we live in community, since our salvation is communal, that is that we are not saved separately but communaly" (my emphasis)

Are you touching the "Heart of Salvation" when you say this?

You also mention the Pearl of Great Price that Jesus points to in the Gospel Parable, inviting the one who hears, to sell all that one has to buy the field that contains the PEARL. Thus you speak of the conviction that "Orthodoxy" is that Pearl of great price, for which one sells all to obtain it.'' (my emphasis)

Personally, as I reflect upon these Words, I feel and believe
that the "Pearl" is not necessarily ORTHODOXY. that it is more than ORTHODOXY, that it can be found within ORTHODOXY, ... perhaps ... "if one sells all!"

I agree with Owen Jones that there needs to be room for "solitaries" and "wanderers" in the Church, always seeking ... always processing and interiorizing the Truth of Christ. After all it seems to me that these "solitaries" and "wanderers" are the lights, throughout History, which point the Church towards the PEARL of great price, as expressed by St. Ephrem the Syrian, in his Hymn on the Pearl. The Pearl which dwells, and is to be found in the oyster, in the Bridal Chamber of one's Heart, in the Bridal Chamber of the Church's Heart.

And this "finding the Pearl of Great Price" is the journey of a person's lifetime; and also, of the Church's lifetime, spreading across the ages, while at the same time already possessing the Truth. Much like the living acorn which already encapsulates the living oak tree.

All of us, individuals, clergy, faithful, monastics, men, women, children are part of this great movement of "seeking" and "finding". Only the Holy Spirit can thus guide the individual, and the Church, towards this "common-ground-field" of our 'being' ... where is hidden the Pearl of Great Price.

We have it! and yet we don't possess IT! it is yet to found, isn't it? : ... where?

... in our daily Life in Christ, through the Living Word of God, in Scripture, in Nature, through the awesome writings of the Fathers and Mothers of the Church, in the Saints, through the Sacraments, through the Liturgy and the Eucharist, etc, etc. in our own pesent day ramblings and uncertainties, in the simple flower that blooms unnoticed by the way side.

Am I attentive, are we attentive to the minutest grain of sand that contains within itself the Universe of God-Present, this Pearl of Great Price ?

Peace in Christ Jesus!

marie_duquette

p.s. After this was posted, and I returned to the Message Board page, the quote of the Fathers, very short, indeed! attraked my attention: it contains a kernel of TRUTH in relation to the PEARL of GREAT price, which is the Treasure. It cannot be found or attained without "INNER WARFARE" and daily struggle with logismoi and in the daily taking up our Cross and following Christ, as stated in the Scriptures.

"It is by warfare that the soul makes progress." Abba John the short

[Macarius]

Personally, as I reflect upon these Words, I feel and believe
that the "Pearl" is not necessarily ORTHODOXY. that it is more than ORTHODOXY, that it can be found within ORTHODOXY, ... perhaps ... "if one sells all!"

I agree with Owen Jones that there needs to be room for "solitaries" and "wanderers" in the Church, always seeking ... always processing and interiorizing the Truth of Christ. After all it seems to me that these "solitaries" and "wanderers" are the lights, throughout History, which point the Church towards the PEARL of great price, as expressed by St. Ephrem the Syrian, in his Hymn on the Pearl. The Pearl which dwells, and is to be found in the oyster, in the Bridal Chamber of one's Heart, in the Bridal Chamber of the Church's Heart.

And this "finding the Pearl of Great Price" is the journey of a person's lifetime; and also, of the Church's lifetime, spreading across the ages, while at the same time already possessing the Truth. Much like the living acorn which already encapsulates the living oak tree.

All of us, individuals, clergy, faithful, monastics, men, women, children are part of this great movement of "seeking" and "finding". Only the Holy Spirit can thus guide the individual, and the Church, towards this "common-ground-field" of our 'being' ... where is hidden the Pearl of Great Price.

Marie, you have touched the innermost of my being by your beautiful words. It is a delight to hear Christ's voice through the words of fellow strugglers in the faith.

[Father David Moser]

Rev. Father,

Peace of the Risen Christ be with you!

Your post perplexes me somehow. How can you say that "without the Church as our Mother, we cannot have God as our Father?" (my emphasis)


I can say it because it was first said by St Athanasius the Great - I am merely quoting one of the great saints and ascetic fathers of the Church.



Show us the Father, the Apostles pleaded. Jesus answered them, He who sees me, sees the Father." etc etc etc The Christ, the Annointed One speaks the Truth, points to the Truth, is the Truth ... "to John he said from the Cross, "here is your Mother"; and to Mary His Mother, "Woman, here is your son."
What Faith? what Trust, What Love?

Who is this Woman, Mary; who is this Woman, the Church who gives life, healing, guidance, nurture, and .... who is "silent" at the Heart of this encounter at the foot of the Cross? who is present in the midst of the Apostles at the Cenacle, in prayer, in waiting for the coming of the Paraclete? knowing and yet, not knowing!

You also say that
"It is essential that we live in community, since our salvation is communal, that is that we are not saved separately by communaly" (my emphasis)

Are you touching the "Heart of Salvation" when you say this?


Heb 11:40
The saints "are not made perfect apart from us" - thus the fact that we are all saved together, in the community of the saints.

Fr David Moser

[Macarius]

Father,
I don't mean to intrude or speak for Marie, but I think she was agreeing with your initial quote by St. Cyprian.
Pray for me,
Michael

[Rick H.]

Dear Marie,

I agree fully with Michael when he says:




Marie, you have touched the innermost of my being by your beautiful words. It is a delight to hear Christ's voice through the words of fellow strugglers in the faith.



and I must confess that I had somewhat of a 'shiver' go up my spine when I was reading your post yesterday. Yes, 'touched' and 'beautiful words' as Michael has said. How perfect, as you have said, from a grain of sand to a pearl of great price, thank you!

And, how perfect that Father David quotes Heb 11:40 to compliment what is being said in this thread (and others recently):




"God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us."


especially, when we read this verse in context. I love Hebrews Chapter 11, this is where I go for encouragement at certain times. And in this verse, as we look at this passage as a whole, we see what the writer of Hebrews was saying here about the primacy, the necessity, the role of faith. This thought unit begins in the last part of Chapter 10, but especially in Heb 11:3 we see the connection between faith and understanding/knowing:




"By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible."



By faith we contemplate such things as crocuses. And by faith we understand. By faith we "noeo." Good word "noeo."

The writer of Hebrews says for the one who is by "faith seeking understanding," there will be a 'contemplative knowing' a "noeo." Here too--knowing and being.

By faith we have 'understanding,' by faith we have a 'heavenly hope,' by faith we 'overcome' . . . can I have an amen to that brothers and sisters? ;) . . . or is this just a western understanding of Hebrews? :) You tell me? What is the context of this thought unit? In the verse that Father David quoted, who is the "they" and who is the "us?"

These are not very hard questions. Make some coffee, open your Bibles and see for yourself. If possible go outside and have coffee, or a bottle of water, and find some spring bulbs to sit next to while you read and seek understanding of exactly what the author of Hebrews is saying here. This is not a hard thing. These are very *simple* questions.

What does this have to do with the topic of this thread? For some, probably . . . absolutely nothing. But, for others, who can hear what Owen Jones has said in his post above . . . the context of Heb 11:40 speaks directly to the question at hand, and has everything to do with IT.

In Christ,

Rick

Truth leading reason

[Theophrastus]

I find it helpful to remember that even the solitaires are who they are, only because of community.

[Rick H.]

Yes, Jetavan, you are correct . . . it is as the good doctor has said elsewhere, the 'they' is part of the 'us.'

And, as Owen has also said above, sometimes they *are* who they *are* in spite of the community:




But because some parishes can actually be deadening to the spirit, we cannot lose sight of our own responsibilities to God and to ourselves for our spiritual development.

[Herman Blaydoe]

It might be worth noting, in expanding Theophrastus/Jetavan's comment, that many monastic Fathers warn against going too lightly into the eremitic experience. That is, they counsel those who would become hermits to ground themselves fully in the corporate spirituality before going it alone. While some, like St. Mary of Egypt, have successfully taken to the solitary life with seemingly minimal preparation, I think it should be said that she represents the notable exception. And to be honest, beyond her well-documented youthful proclivities, we don't know much about her upbringing and prior exposure to the Church. She may have had very spiritual parents who prayed for her soul. Or not, who knows? I think it a fairly safe bet that she was at least baptised in the Church.

And we also do not hear much about those who venture forth improperly prepared and fail. I wish I could find it again, but I remember reading a story about the Ethiopian Church. In it was an anecdote where the author was talking to an Ethiopian about a young man he saw headed out to the desert. The Ethiopian noted that is was common, many young men went out into the desert seeking that "desert spirituality", and also casually remarked that many of them would be dead within a year. The desert would simply claim them and they would never be heard from again. Who knows what they faced? Who knows their fate, physically or spiritually? All we know is the testimony of those who survive that it was worth risking a very likely death, and that the survivors are in the minority.

And even for most of these, there is still the worshipping community that they came from, that prepared them to survive physical limitations to do battle with demons, physical as well as spiritual.

If I am preparing for battle, I want the best training and weapons available. If I want to be treated for an illness I want the best physician and hospital I can find. I want access to the best and most reputable resources there are.

That is why I am Orthodox. But that's just me I guess...

[John Charmley]

All these are excellent comments - but I don't think Antony was after the eremitic life-style - just a Church he might be able to attend.

The question he poses is a very good one, to which there seems no entirely satisfactory answer. As I understand what he is saying it is that he would love the chance to try to be part of community, but that does not exist where he is.

In Christ,

John

[Mary]

And even for most of these, there is still the worshipping community that they came from, that prepared them to survive physical limitations to do battle with demons, physical as well as spiritual.

If I am preparing for battle, I want the best training and weapons available. If I want to be treated for an illness I want the best physician and hospital I can find. I want access to the best and most reputable resources there are.

That is why I am Orthodox. But that's just me I guess...

Anyone listen to 'The Path' on the Ancient Faith radio today? The reading from Acts today was about St Paul's conversion. Fr Tom read several accounts from the Fathers about this conversion - Christ himself brings Paul into the church, but, an ordinary disciple, not an apostle baptises him. Paul doesn't start preaching right away. He receives instruction from the elders, I'm not sure for how long - before God calls him again to preach the Gospel. The fathers say, he didn't need much teaching, because he had it in him to go full speed ahead on his own. (Sorry, my paraphrasing of the thoughts). But, an apostle didn't baptise him, or instruct him later, in order to humble him.

If the Apostle Paul needed the Church, I'd be dead in a few days without Her!

In Christ,
Mary.

PS - to listen to the Path - go to www.ancientfaithradio.com (http://www.ancientfaithradio.com) and you'll find the index on the Left side under Podcasts. (And for those who are right handed - it is still on the Left side).

[Nina]

It might be worth noting, in expanding Theophrastus/Jetavan's comment, that many monastic Fathers warn against going too lightly into the eremitic experience. That is, they council those who would become hermits to ground themselves fully in the corporate spirituality before going it alone. While some, like St. Mary of Egypt, have successfully taken to the solitary life with seemingly minimal preparation, I think it should be said that she represents the notable exception. And to be honest, beyond her well-documented youthful proclivities, we don't know much about her upbringing and prior exposure to the Church. She may have had very spiritual parents who prayed for her soul. Or not, who knows? I think it a fairly safe bet that she was at least baptised in the Church.

And we also do not hear much about those who venture forth improperly prepared and fail. I wish I could find it again, but I remember reading a story about the Ethiopian Church. In it was an anecdote where the author was talking to an Ethiopian about a young man he saw headed out to the desert. The Ethiopian noted that is was common, many young men went out into the desert seeking that "desert spirituality", and also casually remarked that many of them would be dead within a year. The desert would simply claim them and they would never be heard from again. Who knows what they faced? Who knows their fate, physically or spiritually? All we know is the testimony of those who survive that it was worth risking a very likely death, and that the survivors are in the minority.

And even for most of these, there is still the worshipping community that they came from, that prepared them to survive physical limitations to do battle with demons, physical as well as spiritual.

If I am preparing for battle, I want the best training and weapons available. If I want to be treated for an illness I want the best physician and hospital I can find. I want access to the best and most reputable resources there are.

That is why I am Orthodox. But that's just me I guess...

Herman,

Since the discussion took this turn, I think you, explaining other similar posts here, make an immense contribution and justice to the issue. Thank you! Also let's bear in mind humility. Do we think of ourselves as highly as those seemingly solitary (who were part of the body of the Church unceasingly) pillars of Orthodoxy? I do not even dare to look in that direction, let alone place myself in that dimension.

Also I have a question for all. Maybe this is off topic, but I have noticed a lot, that lay people bless priests/monks etc. I was taught by my family that this is incorrect because a priest is the figure of Christ, and in our humility we should keep our place as lay people and we should ask his blessings (therefore Christ's since He has bestowed His grace to His priests through the Mystery of Priesthood) and not bless a priest ourselves as lay people.

Also a Saint said that if we see an angel and a priest at the same time we should first kiss the priest's hand and ask his blessings because he is the figure of Christ.
Maybe those lay people I have heard blessing a priest do not know this, or maybe they bless everyone out of love. However, is this correct?

[Mary]

All these are excellent comments - but I don't think Antony was after the eremitic life-style - just a Church he might be able to attend.

The question he poses is a very good one, to which there seems no entirely satisfactory answer. As I understand what he is saying it is that he would love the chance to try to be part of community, but that does not exist where he is.

In Christ,

John

Dear John,

I think the reason we're talking about other things is because we can't solve Antony's problem. I do understand from his post that his desire is to join a community. But I can't really help him. I should stay silent if I can't help. But I like to talk and in the question "Can one be orthodox without attending an Orthodox Church?" I found much to talk about! =)

The perfect solution to Antony's problem is for an Orthodox church to be started in EVERY village/town/city ALL over the world! I think that should've happened yesterday. But, I have a feeling that it'll take a bit longer...

In Christ,
Mary.

[Nina]

Oh, and another thing, since Herman mentioned St. Mary of Egypt. She needed the community to commune (receive Holy Communion) before departing this life. How can we talk about being solo, when we are partaking Holy Communion? Even if solitary, we are part of the body of Christ.

[Herman Blaydoe]

All these are excellent comments - but I don't think Antony was after the eremitic life-style - just a Church he might be able to attend.


I agree, and apologize for taking this thread off-course. I can't help our new friend Antony except to pray that our Lord guides him to a community that can meet his needs, all I know is how important finding a parish is! I have had to look hard and travel far myself. When I lived in Dunoon, Scotland, I had to travel to Glasgow and Edinburgh, which were long and not inexpensive ferry trips. Needless to say we didn't get to Church often in those days.

[Nina]

I agree, and apologize for taking this thread off-course. I can't help our new friend Antony except to pray that our Lord guides him to a community that can meet his needs, all I know is how important finding a parish is! I have had to look hard and travel far myself. When I lived in Dunoon, Scotland, I had to travel to Glasgow and Edinburgh, which were long and not inexpensive ferry trips. Needless to say we didn't get to Church often in those days.

Thank you for being a true Christian, but you did not take this thread off-course. You posted something wonderful about what was being discussed at that particular moment of the discussion. I am sure Antony does not object reading what was being discussed after other friends here proposed solutions for his problem (and as he thanked them and provided his present solution to the matter).

[Nina]

Herman,

Since the discussion took this turn, I think you, explaining other similar posts here, make an immense contribution and justice to the issue. Thank you! Also let's bear in mind humility. Do we think of ourselves as highly as those seemingly solitary (who were part of the body of the Church unceasingly) pillars of Orthodoxy? I do not even dare to look in that direction, let alone place myself in that dimension.

Also I have a question for all. Maybe this is off topic, but I have noticed a lot, that lay people bless priests/monks etc. I was taught by my family that this is incorrect because a priest is the figure of Christ, and in our humility we should keep our place as lay people and we should ask his blessings (therefore Christ's since He has bestowed His grace to His priests through the Mystery of Priesthood) and not bless a priest ourselves as lay people.

Also a Saint said that if we see an angel and a priest at the same time we should first kiss the priest's hand and ask his blessings because he is the figure of Christ.
Maybe those lay people I have heard blessing a priest do not know this, or maybe they bless everyone out of love. However, is this correct?

Clarification:

The part of my post that starts: "Also I have a question for all" does not refer to any of Herman's posts. I apologize to Herman for unwittingly making his name more prominent (by referring to his post in the beginning) and the word all less so in "Also I have a question for all". Or maybe I should have said: Dear all I have a question.

[Marie-Duquette]

Macarius,

Thank you!

Rick,

Thank you!

Fr. David,

thank you!

[Dimitris]

I can say it because it was first said by St Athanasius the Great - I am merely quoting one of the great saints and ascetic fathers of the Church.
Dear Father David,

just a short side issue: wasn't it Saint Cyprian of Carthage who stated that sentence?

Kind regards,
Dimitris

[Antony Solomon]

Greetings all.

I am not disturbed by the direction this thread takes, after all, who knows what wisdom might come out. And as far as the eremetic lifestyle is concered, I read only recently that we should all be monks of the everyday life, so that such comments are not out of order. For those of us who are remote from a parish and the life that goes with it, we will live practically as monks, since are visits to a church will be occasional, and the oversight we come under will be at a distance, even in internet days, when sites like this provide so much help from people on we'll generally never meet this side of glory.

Blessings upon all.

Amended later, after Rick posted, as I posted in a rush and didn't spell check.

[Rick H.]

Greetings all.

I am not disturbed by the direction this thread takes, after all, who knows what wisdom might come out. And as far as the eremeitc lifestyle is concered, I read only recently that we should all be monks of the everyday life, so that such comments are not out of order. For those of us who are remote from a parish and the life that goes with it, we will live practically as monks, since are visits to a church will be occasional, and the oversight we come under will be at a distance, even in internet days, when sites like this provide so much help from people on will generally never meet this side of glory.

Blessings upon all.

Dear Antony,

I hear you guvnor. Thanks for the blessing that you provide to this site.

In Christ,
Rick

[Father David Moser]

Dear Father David,

just a short side issue: wasn't it Saint Cyprian of Carthage who stated that sentence?

Kind regards,
Dimitris

Entirely possible - I was going from memory and my memory is sometimes quite fallible.

Fr David Moser

[Nina]

The life of this Saint was emailed to me, and I thought it is relevant to this thread. We celebrate his memory today. May Saint James the Ascetic intercede for all of us and through his intercessions may God show mercy on us!

St James the Ascetic

Saint James had such love for Christ, and so little regard for the things of this world, that he liquidated his entire estate and gave the proceeds to the poor without spending any of the money on himself. Later, he fell into a demonic temptation and became very proud. He would say, "Who knows better than I do, concerning my own salvation?" Following his own self will and personal preferences, he lived in solitude and undertook difficult struggles without first seeking the advice of wise and experienced ascetics.

Once a demon appeared to him in the guise of an angel of light (2 Corinthians 11:14). He told James that Christ was very pleased by his labors, and would come that night to reward him. "Clean your cell," he said, "and make ready by lighting the lamps and burning incense."
The foolish James, in his delusion, accepted all of this without question. When the Antichrist came at midnight, James opened his door and fell down in worship before him. The devil struck him on the head, then vanished.

James awoke at dawn and went to visit a certain Elder to tell him what had happened. Before James could speak a single word, the Elder said, "You must leave this place, for you have been deceived by Satan."

James was heartbroken and wept bitter tears. The Elder also advised him to go to a cenobitic monastery, which he did. There he fulfilled his obedience in the trapeza with great humility. Then for seven years he sat in his cell working at some handicraft, and fulfilling his Rule of prayer.
St James acquired the gift of discernment, learned the straight and narrow path of God, and became a great wonderworker. He completed the course of his life in peace.