Missionary work - what do you do? [Archive] - Monachos.net Discussion Community

Paul Cowan

06-05-2007, 04:24 AM

Father Bless,

I am no theologian nor missionary. I live the life I live. If people notice something different about me, they ask. I have many people asking me questions lately and at different times. I work in a faith based organization. People see icons on my cubicle and on my desktop. They assume I am RC. When any topic turns to this, I correct them and they are surprised I am EO. They have never heard of this before. Door wide open. When time runs out I ask if they want to hear more later. They always say yes.

This happens with colleagues and volunteers I work with. The most noticable one of late was during Great Lent. My senior volunteer is Mormon. We all sat down to eat lunch and he asked rather shortly why I was not eating meat. I simply told him it was a religious thing as it was not really a talking venue. He said really, tell me more. Door wide open.

Our actions speak volumes. If we walk the walk the Holy Spirit will give us the ability to talk the talk. I am a sinner! But God has opened doors for me and put people in front of me I would normally never talk to. People are hungry for what we Orthodox have. I get into some very GOOD conversations with them.

Matthew: Thanks tremendously to this forum, I have more answers than I would have had on my own to refute mostly protestants, but even some RC (they are the hardest to talk to). I sincerely appreciate all the posters on Monachos. You all help me witness. I am amazed with the number of my parish members that do not know of this site. I do tell them all to check it out.

Paul

PS (I think I will start using my name again. My initials are too impersonal. You all will just have to keep Paul F and Paul C separate in your own minds. :)

Paul Fowler

06-05-2007, 10:23 AM

My pennyworth

We started a small group in a small town in the East Midlands called Newark.

It started because the Nottingham Parish had an episcopal visit from +Hilarion, at that time an Assistant Bishop in the Diocese of Sourozh. He asked the same question that Peter has asked-why are there so few Orthodox Churches, he challenged us to find places where there were Orthodox living but with no Parish and do something. Previous to this I had noticed that we had a lot of Parishoners living quite close to the town of Newark. Putting the two together, I approached my priest to talk about the possibility of doing something in the Newark area. He gave his blesssing and the result was a regular discussion group and occasional liturgies.

Over the past three years, we have a had a number of people come to us-some have stayed and some just visited, but eventually we decided to have the Liturgy served on a regular basis. We had tremendous support from other confessions and eventually rented a side chapel in the Anglican Church in the town centre. Having arranged this we were delighted to find in the stained glass above what we use as the altar were a number of British Saints, including St Aidan and St Chad, to whom the mother church in Nottingham is dedicated. In an even smaller side chapel off the one we use we found an icon of a Russian Bishop (as yet unidentified).

The Liturgy is served monthly, with occasional mid week meetings, with a core group of about fourteen. We are supported by the mother church in Nottingham, whose priest serves the Liturgy. Our status is a 'Eucharistic Community'-I suspect something found only in the Diocese of Sourozh-which is a Community which does not have the status of a full parish. The Community is dedicated to St Paulinus of York, who preached the gospel in this area in the 7th century

Paul F

John Charmley

06-05-2007, 11:58 AM

Dear Paul,

That is excellent, and I look forward to being told more, over time, of how that excellent work is doing.

I am not writing to express what I do (why start answering questions now, when I've spent so much time asking them?), but to say something about an example of which I can bear witness.

This man, known to me and many others, has a full-time secular job which is pretty demanding; he has a wife and three children. He has played a major role in founding two Orthodox Churches, and is active in helping found at least three more; in the past year alone he has published thirteen volumes of writings of the Fathers; he has founded and edited a magazine for those interested in Orthodoxy; he has exchanged hundreds of messages with enquirers and in at least one case known to me, his long and patient work with one man resulted in nothing more than a cascade of insults and invective, to which our man simply responded with humility and charity. He is a sub-deacon in his own Church, which has grown steadily, not least through his tireless efforts. I have not known him be anything but patient and kind to those who enquire, and he gives of time he cannot possibly have.

He acts on me as a beacon. My own feeble efforts to start an Orthodox community locally receive enormous help from this man, who has goodness knows how many more people like me he is helping. Thanks, in main part to him, we now have an Orthodox community planted in North Suffolk, which, in His good time, will grow and bear witness. But without my own version of a man with the energies of St. Paul, I would not have got to first base, so to say.

I am not going to embarrass this humble Christian man by naming him - but in this, of all threads, I wanted to pay a public tribute to this anonymous person who makes a positive difference to all the lives he touches in his tireless work of mission for the Lord. The funny thing is, if he ever reads this, he won't recognise himself and would criticise me for my encomium; that's just another reason for making it.

With more like him - who knows?

In Christ,

John

Paul Fowler

06-05-2007, 06:21 PM

John

06-05-2007, 06:33 PM

Some things the Russian Orthodox Church in England has done lately:

-- Translated large numbers of the services into English.
-- Organized summer camps for youth to experience Church life in a different way
-- Founded two new parishes in the last year, with plans for more this year
-- Given good and faithful presentation of Orthodox life to the world that it lives in
-- Supported Orthodox youth events and conferences
-- Appointed a bishop who's mission oriented

John Charmley

06-05-2007, 07:31 PM

Dear John,

If my account sounded if I was drawing attention to myself then please forgive me, it certainly was not my intention. I am personally in awe of what God is doing in our town and it is down to God alone and the Prayers of the Mother of God and St Paulinus that anything has developed. You have been privileged to be drawn alongside someone so humble and sensative to God, may God raise up more men like him. I can only give glory to God for what He has doing in our town, He began it, and He will complete it.

In XC

Paul F

My dear Paul,

Far from it, I was genuinely impressed and pleased at what you said - it is so difficult at times to make anything that one might consider worthy of Him whom we serve.

I am, as you say, fortunate, and I think blessed, to know someone like the friend I describe; and he says, constantly, he does not do enough - and believes it. If I did not know my own unworthiness, it would heap coals of fire on me; but since I do, it inspires me to keep getting up every time I fall down - as do your own posts. We all stumble - the difference is whether we get up and keep going, even though we know we will stumble again.

In Christ,

John

Andrew

06-05-2007, 11:49 PM

Trudy

07-05-2007, 01:12 AM

Tell us what you are doing?

I am not sure what consitutes missionary work Fr. David. I am not one who goes knocking on doors to tell people about God. I have never been part of a missionary church plant. God has wired me as one who will answer a question when asked, speak as God gives me the words, and work very hard to live in such a manner that is glorifying to God.

I recall one time standing in the grocery line and someone did not have cash to pay for their groceries and was willing to write a check but the store did not accept checks. It was over $15. I paid the bill in cash and the individual wrote me a check. Yes, it could have bounced, but I didn't care.

When the women left the store, the clerk said, "That was very nice of you to do that." I replied, "That is what God asks us to do. Perhaps a time will come when that woman will be able to help another person because someone helped her." I completed my purchase and left.

I did nothing special. I was reimbursed. But the point is, it provided an opportunity to "teach" the clerk about God and that we are our brother's keeper.

I am blessed to teach Sunday school. Today's lesson was discussion of the following passages: Luke 8:16-18 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%208:16-18;&version=50;) The Parable of the Revealed Light and Luke 8:26-29 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%208:26-39;&version=50;) the story of The Demon Possessed Man.

In the parable we talked about not hiding the Light of Christ, living the life of Christ no matter our age, and the importance of hearing. I asked the kids to focus on how they listen and to what, especially during Liturgy. It was interesting to receive their responses that they should be listening during the sermon and during the Gospel and Epistle readings. When asked, "When else do you listen during Liturgy?" they could not come up with another time. I asked them, "What about through out the entire Liturgy?"

"Listen to what, Mrs. Trudy?!"

"To the prayers you are participating in! Is there some word that seems to catch your thought while you are praying? Perhaps God is speaking to your heart, asking you to hear."

The expression on a couple faces was..."Oh yea! I didn't think of that." :)

We then moved into the story of the demon possessed man, especially focusing on the end of the story. After being healed, the man asks to accompany Jesus but Jesus says, "Return to your own house, and tell what great things God has done for you."

I pointed out that the man heard God and obeyed Him after he was healed and even the demons listen to God. The man went and did as God asked him, telling everyone in his whole city what Jesus had done for him.

Not only does Jesus teach us that we should hear, but also go home to our city (we discussed what that was for each of them), and tell about Jesus; with our voices, with our actions, with all that we are.

It is small but it is the only thing I know to do.

In Christ,
Athanasia (Trudy)

Paul Fowler

07-05-2007, 04:40 PM

I know the conditions in England are much different, but you English folks interested in a missionary oriented Orthodox Church might want to contact Archbishop Dmitri of the South (OCA). He pretty much created an entire diocese, one that is exploding with growth. A lot of this has to do with population dynamics, but still, maybe you could go to him with some strategies. In thirty years the DOS has established many missions, full on parishes, etc. This Pascha over 100 people were received into the Church. My own parish in Texas has experienced rapid growth too, by the workings of the Theotokos and the fervent prayers of our priest.

Has His Grace published anything? I certainly would be interested in understanding how Orthodoxy has grown in non-Orthodox cultures. We have been blessed in the Russian Diocese in Britain with a new Archbishop and a new Bishop. Archbishop Innokenty is known as "The Builder Bishop" because every diocese he has been appointed to has grown dramatically.

In XC

Paul F

Father David Moser

07-05-2007, 06:02 PM

Now that my "busy season" (that is Sat and Sun) is over, perhaps I can offer some of my own thoughts on Missionary Work. In one sense, I think the essence of missionary work is what Paul said right off, "I live the life I live." This is the basis for everything else for me. Missionary work cannot be something external to my life - something special that I do to be a missionary; rather I am a missionary because it is intrinsic to my life. As a missionary, one of the first priorities I find is to raise the awareness of Orthodoxy among the people of my community. One of the time honored traditions in North America that accomplishes this is the Greek/Russian/other ethnic festival. Every Greek parish seems to have a Greek festival and more and more Russian parishes are doing the same thing. We have a "Russian food festival" in our parish which brings people in the door by droves. We make a little money, but gradually the people of the community are beginning to realize that there is a Russian Orthodox Church here and what it is. During the festival we do "tours" of the Church for those who are curious which gives another venue for interest. Our festival has also had an interesting side effect of involving people who were formerly "fringe" members more consistently in the Church. Also, there is the effect of involving non-Orthodox spouses in the Church which then leads them to catechism and baptism. Our parish has also hosted various community projects - for example a project to rake leaves in the fall used our Church as a "base" when the volunteers would come in, register and pick up their bags and assignments. This also raises our visibility.

I take advantage of every opportunity to do public speaking on the beliefs or practices of the Orthodox Church. When our local art museum had an icon exhibit, I was able to give a talk on the history of Orthodoxy in America and I also was able to bring in an iconographer to talk about the icons. I give an annual lecture to chaplaincy interns at the local hospital on Orthodox belief and custom.

Where ever I go I wear my "clerical" clothes - podriasnik and riassa and cross - and that too has an impact. It produces opportunities for conversations which otherwise would not occur. When I was a chaplain intern at the hospital myself, I would wear my cassock (podriasnik) on my rounds and it really opened a lot of doors. When I walked in a room, everyone knew who I was and why I was there and that did away with all the preliminaries and allowed us to get right to spiritual matters. Even on my daily "constitutional" in the park, people will stop and talk about spiritual things because the way I am dressed opens the door to them.

I also have parishioners in the outlying rural areas of Idaho and as we go and hold services for them, this becomes and outreach to the whole community - many of which probably never thought about Orthodoxy as a local thing.

These are the kinds of things we do to bring people in the door - or even just to make the doors of the Church visible and accessible to our community.

Fr David Moser

Nina

10-05-2007, 02:57 PM

Yes, I think that every second of our life is an opportunity for missionary work. Most of it, non-verbal. I fail in both (verbal and non).

Anna Brenneis

10-05-2007, 05:02 PM

XB!!!

You are so right, Nina! Saint Seraphim of Sarov has told us to save ourselves, and we will save thousands around us.

The late Brother Jose, steward of the Myrrh-Streaming Iveron Icon a few years ago and a true modern missionary, had the following motto: "Faith, Love, Charity!" It is easy to understand the mission of someone like Father David because he can dress as a cleric and be trusted (or not!) because of his obvious role as a Priest. But what about us more common sinners? I try to remember Brother Jose when I feel especially worthless in my mission. He simply went where he was called and lived his motto. It seems to me that we are to "bloom" where we are "planted" and trust God for the rest. That is all part of our Faith life.

There are some wonderful young adults in my parish who have been creating their own outreach to the community, to both believers and nonbelievers, by revitalizing efforts at regular Liturgies in English (we are a Russian Cathedral, so Slavonic predominates), forming a wonderful men's choir that does public concerts, and organizing a recent Lenten retreat that was a huge success. They have also been collecting donations for a specific group of orphans in Russia and are looking for other outreach projects. Our parish has long been involved with such things as Russian food and culture festivals, but what impresses me about our young people is that their outreach is specifically spiritual. Our older parishioners have worked very hard over the years to preserve Russian Orthodoxy through the building of our beautiful Cathedral and running an afternoon/Saturday Russian school (www.gymnazia.org), and now our young adults appear to be taking the next step. For the last 13 years, we have also had an Orthodox day school (www.stjohnsacademysf.org). So, in my parish, we have many, many opportunities to become involved in our Orthodox community's mission.

Anyone who says that Orthodox Christians are not involved in missionary activities simply have not opened their eyes. We don't pound on Bibles and go door-to-door (thank God!), but we are definitely out there!

Antony Solomon

10-05-2007, 05:40 PM

I think Anna hits the nail on the head. The best form of evangelism is a vibrant spiritual Christ centred parish life. Too often the Protestant church suffers from para-church bodies doing the evangelism - knocking on doors, sending out leaflets, holding tent meetings, etc - and this is not connected with the local churches. And sad to say, even when it is the local church doing these things, what they bring people into isn't a wonderful thing - physician heal thyself!

What was said about the early church? Two things:

They took note that they had been with Jesus, and, see how they love one another.

Nina

10-05-2007, 06:27 PM

XB!!!

The late Brother Jose, steward of the Myrrh-Streaming Iveron Icon a few years ago and a true modern missionary, had the following motto: "Faith, Love, Charity!" It is easy to understand the mission of someone like Father David because he can dress as a cleric and be trusted (or not!) because of his obvious role as a Priest. But what about us more common sinners? I try to remember Brother Jose when I feel especially worthless in my mission. He simply went where he was called and lived his motto. It seems to me that we are to "bloom" where we are "planted" and trust God for the rest. That is all part of our Faith life.

There are some wonderful young adults in my parish who have been creating their own outreach to the community, to both believers and nonbelievers, by revitalizing efforts at regular Liturgies in English (we are a Russian Cathedral, so Slavonic predominates), forming a wonderful men's choir that does public concerts, and organizing a recent Lenten retreat that was a huge success. They have also been collecting donations for a specific group of orphans in Russia and are looking for other outreach projects. Our parish has long been involved with such things as Russian food and culture festivals, but what impresses me about our young people is that their outreach is specifically spiritual. Our older parishioners have worked very hard over the years to preserve Russian Orthodoxy through the building of our beautiful Cathedral and running an afternoon/Saturday Russian school (www.gymnazia.org) (http://www.gymnazia.org%29), and now our young adults appear to be taking the next step. For the last 13 years, we have also had an Orthodox day school (www.stjohnsacademysf.org) (http://www.stjohnsacademysf.org%29). So, in my parish, we have many, many opportunities to become involved in our Orthodox community's mission.

Anyone who says that Orthodox Christians are not involved in missionary activities simply have not opened their eyes. We don't pound on Bibles and go door-to-door (thank God!), but we are definitely out there!

Trulu He is Risen!

Dear Anna,

Wow! What you share about the missions in your parish is amazing and a great observation in regard to the different missions that the generations had. Thank you for sharing it! And for the motto "Faith, Love, Charity!"

As you say we are very common sinners and tied to the world and its things. This is what I struggle with because indeed every second of our existence is an opportunity to bear witness for Christ. Let's say I decide to wear a necklace that matches my dress for an event, and it is not my cross, because of my vanity I think that the colors of the cross and my dress do not match together. By not having the cross on my neck at the event I fail somehow (not completely) to bear witness. I take much pride that I look so great with all the vain combinations, but I feel an empty spot because I gave up my cross for the love of worldly things. However God does not fail us even if we do fail ourselves and Him and others. He still presents the opportunity at that event to behave in a Christian manner by words, deeds, or simply being there: and this is missions.

I remember reading the life of a Saint (Theodora?-sorry that I forgot who-maybe someone knows her name and can post it here) who previously was a prostitute and a female of renowned beauty. All men were yearning to catch a glimpse of her beauty. She noticed a young priest (monk?) that passed by her and who was completely indifferent to her (and her beauty). She, used to see all men almost passing out when seeing her exceptional beauty, was very touched in her pride when the priest seemed so unaffected. The next day she adorned herself even more and stayed in the place where the priest used to go by. When he came by, the same thing happened. He walked by unaffected and so indifferent like he was looking air and not the famous beauty for whom many men traveled on purpose to look at. She was so perplexed and astonished that she inquired about him (they told her he was a Christian priest and if I remember it well he catechized and baptized her) and not only met Christ and became Christian, but also became a Saint. It is a beautiful life and I recommend it highly (I will post the name of the Saint if I locate it), because there are many lessons to be drawn from it.

That priest with his Christian behavior, without a single word, encounter, or deed in the beginning made her change from street to the Way. Same, as the beautiful saying of Saint Seraphim of Sarov, that you quote, urges. Actually, thinking of it that is why some Saints stayed silent for some time. Even through it they could bear witness for Christ. Not to mention that in the world we have body language, actions, eyes, blushing, etc.

Olga

11-05-2007, 09:40 AM

....In an even smaller side chapel off the one we use we found an icon of a Russian Bishop (as yet unidentified). ...
Paul F

Any chance you could post a photograph of this icon? I may be able to help identify him.

Paul Fowler

11-05-2007, 11:16 AM

Any chance you could post a photograph of this icon? I may be able to help identify him.

Thank you Olga, that is so kind, someone else here has also offered to do the same. At our next Liturgy at the Church-Pentecost Sunday-I will take a photo and upload it. It would be wonderful to identify this saint who has waited for us for so many years to celebrate the Liturgy in his presence.

In XC

Paul

David Menchu

24-02-2010, 07:49 AM

I would like to ask... what can I do? I'm living far from my country, Guatemala, and I would like to find a way to share with them the Orthodoxy. I know there's a monastery of nuns in my country, a little chapel in the city... but, even if I saw the great work that the nuns are making in there, even with an orphanage, there are no priests and they need to wait many weeks until is coming one for staying some days. Some days ago, talking about this subject with a monk of a monastery in this moldavian region of Romania, he suggested to me "David, why don't you become a priest? You would be a very good one and you could help a lot your country, your people, making mission". From that moment, I felt stronger the idea that sometimes passed through my mind. The thing is, can I do it? I mean, was the deeper call of God when He showed me the Orthodoxy and allowed me to be part of it?

Since two years ago, when I became a part of the Orthodox Church, I have spent a lot of time reading, learning, asking... I have the interest of knowning as much as possible and not being a non-informed believer. This also made me to appear strange in the eyes of many persons in this specific area of Romania, because, as I notice, in here you're more appreciated as less questions you do and as more external signs of your faith you show. And, later, when I ask to some persons, believers, "What means this, what means that...?", they don't know, or they scold me "How you dare to ask? just... just believe!" And I need to know! Because I am also teaching to my family, I am translating texts, prayers!

The question, thus, is: What can I do, how can I do mission for my people?

Doamne ajuta! (in romanian) May God help us!

David

Father David Moser

24-02-2010, 06:12 PM

I would like to ask... what can I do? I'm living far from my country, Guatemala, and I would like to find a way to share with them the Orthodoxy. I know there's a monastery of nuns in my country, a little chapel in the city... but, even if I saw the great work that the nuns are making in there, even with an orphanage, there are no priests and they need to wait many weeks until is coming one for staying some days. Some days ago, talking about this subject with a monk of a monastery in this moldavian region of Romania, he suggested to me "David, why don't you become a priest?
...
The question, thus, is: What can I do, how can I do mission for my people?

David, I would suggest to you that if you are willing to accept the priesthood if it should be God's will that you tell the nun with whom you spoke that you would be willing but it would be best if she would approach the abbess about this who could in turn approach their bishop. At that point the bishop, by the grace of the Holy Spirit given him in his ordination be in a place to discern how to proceed.

As for the more general question about how to do missionary work, I would suggest that you work with the convent asking them for direction about how to help them in their work to spread the Gospel. Continue with your translation work, it will be very helpful no matter what. Learn to chant the daily services from the nuns so that you can go out to other places and have the services there (a good way to give the people there a chance to be exposed to the Church). You should also continue to read and learn about your faith so that you can talk intelligently to those who wish to converse with you about spiritual topics.

Fr David Moser

Alexander Ignatiev

10-08-2011, 11:12 PM

Our mission in Hattiesburg, MS, is trying to move off of the campus of the University of Southern Mississippi, which has been a useful central meeting place, but is not really conducive to our expanding schedule. We are presently working to rent space from a local United Methodist church, which has a history of openness to other, non-Methodist groups. Having a regular space with a regular schedule is going to be helpful to us. Presently, we serve reader's vespers every Friday, and a divine liturgy on the first Saturday of each month. This month, we are serving divine liturgy on the second saturday, since the parish that we regularly attend, and where our priest serves, half the state away in McComb, MS had its patronal feast last Saturday (Transfiguration).

We have a censer, a chalice set, a Gospel, an Apostol, and numerous icons. With a little stability, we will be able to expand our divine services, as well as our outreach. We have also begun having lay classes once a month. It's an exciting time in our small misison.

Paul Cowan

11-08-2011, 06:04 AM

OUtstanding news. I lived in Meridian for a couple of years.

Will moving away from the campus reduce your visitor pool? Or are you looking to gain the interest of some of the UMC parishoners?

Paul

Alexander Ignatiev

11-08-2011, 08:48 PM

Moving away from campus will make it easier, because parking at USM is at a premium, and so much of the city is tied into USM events. I'm meeting with the Methodist's Board of Trustees this afternoon. We have been tied into the OCF for years, but our students are graduating, so we are moving on.

We are secretly waiting for the Bay Street Presbyterian Church to wither, because they have a gorgeous white clapboard building in the historic neighborhood with gorgeous stained windows that faces east. But in the meantime, we are just trying to sustain the flame of Orthodoxy in Hattiesburg, and grow away from the University.

Ophelia

15-08-2011, 04:18 PM

Posted by Alexander Ignatiev on 11-8-2011 ... "We are secretly waiting for the Bay Street Presbyterian Church to wither, because they have a gorgeous white clapboard building in the historic neighborhood with gorgeous stained windows that faces east. But in the meantime, we are just trying to sustain the flame of Orthodoxy in Hattiesburg, and grow away from the University."

What is meant by "wither"? This seems an odd thing to say while working in the field of 'missionary work'. Can the flame not extend to the Presbyterian Church?

Paul Cowan

16-08-2011, 04:21 AM

Of course it can, but we are concerned with the flame of Orthodoxy not those faiths that have a belief different from ours. We are all God's children and God help us all reach out to each other. We know where the fullness of the faith is, we don't know where it is not. (As Herman likes to quote) {I hope I got that right Pooh}

Perhaps the withering Presbyterians will see the fullness of the Orthodox mission and convert. Wouldn't that be something?

Paul

Ophelia

17-08-2011, 07:20 PM

Please tell ... what exactly would they be converting to? Although I am not a nun, my faith aligns with the desert mothers and fathers. My understanding of a true Apostolic Tradition (the Bible ... and I do use an Orthodox Bible - for now) doesn't mention the word Orthodox, Presbyterian or any other label of organized religion. I do, however, have a great appreciation for the Eastern Church. The writings of Lossky on mystical theology, the Philokalia and other writings on wisdom and humility express the essence of the spirituality of Christ. It is the trappings of the Church of Orthodoxy that I find questionable, the laws in particular, that seem somewhat unaligned with this spirituality. I loved the Greek Orthodox liturgy when I attended the Church. What I found less palpable was the "exclusionary" methodology, the necessity for chrismation, despite being baptized in the Holy Trinity and having experienced the undefinable work of the Holy Spirit, and the finery, beautiful but expensive; meanwhile, an ongoing and desperate need of hunger and thirst await outside the doors of the churches, hoping for a chance to enter the great Hospital of healing. I say, "If you aren't going to share the harvest, get out. Let someone else have it." If the Orthodox Church Community cannot reach out to the Community just outside their doors, because the bondage called prejudice has secured a foothold in the minds of many, who unabashedly state that they are the one true faith and the best-kept secret, I ask, "Why have you been a secret for 2,000 plus years? Where have you been? The Apostles were busy walking the dusty paths, getting beaten, harassed, jailed, stoned, accused ... They went where they were needed. They were rejected to their deaths. Are you prepared for this? If you are the one true Church, The Faith, will you go where you will be rejected? Or will you "wait" for the withering?" To conclude: Once the fruit falls off of the tree, it begins to rot.

Herman Blaydoe

17-08-2011, 09:44 PM

"Laws?" "Exclusionary?" Of which church are you speaking? Not the Orthodox Church that I am a member of. My Orthodox parish has several outreach ministries. How do you know this mission is not also reaching out? Why be so critical? The mere fact that this mission exists at all seems like outreach to me.

And what is wrong with Chrismation? The Apostles who were already baptized also experienced Pentecost. So do we through Chrismation. Why is this a problem? Lossky, the authors of the Philokalia, and Orthodox spirituality practiced the "trappings" as you call them and generally see them as essential to that spirituality, not optional. Or so it seems to this bear of little brain.

Herman the Pooh

Margaret S.

17-08-2011, 10:19 PM

.... I ask, "Why have you been a secret for 2,000 plus years? Where have you been? The Apostles were busy walking the dusty paths, getting beaten, harassed, jailed, stoned, accused ... They went where they were needed. They were rejected to their deaths. Are you prepared for this? If you are the one true Church, The Faith, will you go where you will be rejected? Or will you "wait" for the withering?" To conclude: Once the fruit falls off of the tree, it begins to rot.

I got the impression that Alexander was being a little tongue-in-cheek because he likes their building, no more.

I'm also not sure how the Orthodox Church has been hidden for 2000 years given that the whole of christendom was Orthodox for a thousand. There are Orthodox churches where Christ walked the earth, the vast lands of Russia are still Orthodox (speaking of rejection, have you any idea how many martyrs Russia produced in the last century?), Greece has been so since Lydia preached the gospel to her neighbours and most of eastern Europe is today (to say nothing of the Orthodox churches in the middle-east and Africa not in communion with Constantinople). Here in Britain you can barely go a few miles before you find a place-name or a holy well belonging to some Orthodox saint. I live in Edinburgh and the very castle that makes my town famous was once a community of virgins started by St Modwenna. Iona is one of the most visited pilgrimage sites in the world and it was Orthodox. I could go on but I don't want to be a bore. Just because Orthodoxy was largely unknown to the average American until the last 30 years or so doesn't mean it was hiding. It means that historical circumstances gave the Roman Catholic church greater visibility in some parts of the world but for most of that time it was as colourful and 'expensive' as the Orthodox church anyway.

Best wishes,
Margaret

Kusanagi

18-08-2011, 12:32 AM

But why are you reading advance things like the Philokalia without some of the basics of understanding the Orthodox faith?
Otherwise you wouldn't be questioning the laws and being talking about being excluded because you were not chrismated. Nor about giving Holy Communion out to all like it was sweets. Nor about the Orthodox not helping out the community. I know in Orthodox countries like Greece, Russia and Romania they do help their community with orphanges, old people's home feeding the poor, prison ministries etc. If you paid attention to the part when Judas complained why the ointment was not sold for lots of money and given to the poor, our Lord said to him, "the poor you will always have". That means there will always be poor people.
If you did a tiny bit of research Orthodoxy has not been hidden for the past 2000 years, it has grown in some countries and become the national religion like Greece, Russia, Romania, Bulgaria, Georgia plus millions of martyrs over time as well.

Also do not delude yourself by saying your faith is aligned with the desert mothers and fathers. Some of the desert fathers defended the right faith in the first council and especially St Anthony the Great taught the differences between the right faith and different faith because other monks that approached him which seemed Christian since they believed in Christ but held erroneous views. Also do you know of his teachings?
The one about people trying to explain our faith by demonstrations and arguments yet they cannot describe it properly but it is through the in working of faith that you can understand our faith.

So right now you are trying to explain away our practices and getting annoyed without reading, learning and putting into practice our faith.

Ophelia

18-08-2011, 01:42 AM

Addressing Herman the Pooh and Margaret's best wishes ... I haven't been in a church yet that doesn't have at least 3 or 4 outreach ministries in full swing. I'm talking about the homeboys, the crack addicts, the abused children, the vagrants, and the those who may be looking for more than rhetoric. I sat in a Greek Orthodox Cathedral for 7 months and only saw one homeless person in the Church, and we are talking about a neighborhood in dire need (also, no people of color). The homeless person? She was interested in the murals. A man charged down the aisle and ordered her to sit. I sat with her. People looked at me like I'd just eaten dirt. As for Chrismation ... the priest told me that it is just a "public confession". If you are out on the streets witnessing, do you really need to do an 'in church' public confession? And do you really believe that Christ denied man and woman his body and blood because they didn't stand up in front of a church for this confession (denied the Eucharist because you are not Chrismated)? The Scriptures teach that their faith in Him is what healed them. Also, I won't go into what happened to me when I chose NOT to receive a 'quick chrismation'. We won't go here:) And from what I gain on Lossky and the desert mothers and fathers, I hear Love ... not self-righteousness. From those who devoted their lives to spreading the Word, I hear "I am your servant " regardless of who you are.

I'm not on this site to argue who is right and who is wrong. In my small opinion, when an Orthodox kick you out because you thought they wanted growth and passed out a few outreach packets during the Greek Festival but found out soon after that you interfered with business ... you will challenge those who say that the Orthodox Faith dates back to the Apostles. It's not so much about right and wrong; but more along the lines of stepping up to something bigger and greater. Give me something more Margaret! The people in the Church were fine with taking the money from those on the outside ... as long as they did not come in and sit in their pews. And I'm not talking about just one church here; I'm talking more than one. I won't even go into the story about the lack of concern for the rape victim. The contemporary Orthodox writers claim that Orthodoxy is the best-kept secret. Why is it called a secret if it is so widespread - so well known? Or, what's the secret? Give me something to sink my teeth into, Margaret - Herman, show me ... don't tell me ... show me that you ARE THE ONE TRUE FAITH. I'm challenging you for more than statistics on church history; I want the today statistics. I know about the saints, the martyrs, and the prophets. I know about them because I hear them calling out! Today! Go Forth! Feed the sheep! Bishop Ware and many other progressive (if I may use this term) writers are saying that inreach is needed. Do you agree? Could it be that there is something askew in that "exclusionary" methodology, keeping people out instead of bringing them in?
Or, could it be that many Orthodox have missed the LOVE boat and have gotten caught up in ritualistic practice? I want to see love in those churches, brothers and sisters in Christ. Sincerely, I want this. I want unity.

I know I'm messing with you, and I intend to. I wouldn't be bothered if I thought Orthodoxy wasn't worth something. I do this to bring you up-to-date with the view from the "outside". I was in love with the Orthodox Church. I wanted to be in that church every minute of the day (aside from taking care of my family). I would show up early for Orthros. Early for Orthros??? And stayed until the the tables were being cleared after coffee hour. I opened up my heart and my soul. But, God had other plans. He did not want me sitting comfortably in the pews, believing everything that was handed to me. IT IS BY FAITH AND SPIRITUAL EXPERIENCE THAT ONE CAN CONFIRM GOD AS FATHER. This is part of the plan ... all one in the Body of Christ. Is this true? Russian, Greek, Armenian ... all one? Or all one as God's children regardless of the label? Maybe many Orthodox need to start helping Orthodox brethren get aligned with true Eastern Church theology before they claim to have the fullest faith. Maybe the need is your brother or sister just down the street. Sometimes we must step out of our comfort zones. Let me hear your voice in the news. Let me see you walk side by side with the Evangelicals ... and the Presbyterians, who are suffering a difficult split of their own. Remember who the real enemy is.
(read Bishop Ware's Q and A article FULLNESS AND THE CENTER in Christianity Today and read Professor Nassif's article on THE POVERTY OF LOVE).

As one tossed out of the Church (what you do to others you do to Christ), as one standing on the side of the road with a Bible in one hand and a bag of fruit in the other, I'm challenging you to more. Will you meet me on the road? Will you come out of the Church and walk the streets with me? I'm still looking for that homeless woman. Christ cares about every sheep that that has lost its way, and I see many. Like in the Good Samaritan Parable, for a time, I was one on the side of the road, hurt, rejected, overlooked by the Orthodox as they made their way into Church. No one would speak to me. You want to know who picked me up and brought me inside? Those not attending Church because of hypocrisy and religious abuse. I said to one friend, "Are you sure you wanna hang out with me; I think I've a got a whole church after me." She's gay, married to a gay, and she replied, "According to half the churches in the world, I'm going to hell. Bring 'em on."

I am new and full of questions.

Ophelia

18-08-2011, 03:42 AM

Addressing Kusanagi's comments ... Defending the faith? If you knew how many hours I have spent defending the Eastern Church despite what happened to me, you wouldn't be so quick to judge (although, I do have reservations on a few things. Agree to disagree?) You see, I'm calling you out. I was testing you. I want to know that those of you posting mission / outreach commentary are able do more than bully with words. I want to hear the love in your voice. I'm around a lot of very bright Agnostics and Atheists; I want to be able to refer them to something solid. Whatever you post, make it count. Say, as in ... if God stopped you in mid sentence, and asked you: Are you showing my deluded sister what I have taught you? What would you say?

There's an example in St John Klimacus' Ladder of Ascent where he tells of a young monk being verbally chastised by his spiritual father. The observer asks why, because clearly the young man is innocent. The spiritual father explains the reasoning behind it. Look it up.

Ophelia

18-08-2011, 04:04 AM

For all ... I was baptized Orthodox Presbyterian. I live in a very old clapboard house - grey. No stained glass windows. It's a lot of upkeep. Please, keep this in mind.

Paul Cowan

18-08-2011, 05:35 AM

Dear sister in Christ Ophelia,

I am very sorry you have been hurt and have seen others hurt within and without the Church. I truly am. But I think you are calling out people in error.

I have been just as hurt as you in my past by other "christian" faiths and "good meaning" people (read church politics). So I have come to understand people will be people. It is not the Christian faith that hurts, but people. If you are calling out the church to prove itself, then you are talking to the wrong people on this site. If you are calling out people to defend their personal witness to those outside the church, frankly, shame on you.

I have never been one to have much sense when it comes to holding my tongue, but you hit a nerve with your accusations that I feel you are just flat out wrong in doing. If the "Church" in this country is not as popular as in other countries it is because it is still in its infancy. Good grief, it's only been here what 150 some odd years and most of its members are ethnics who don't or didn't speak much english until even more recently. Surely you won't try to compare Orthodoxy in America with the historical Orthodoxy in its mother countries. If you have a complaint on how church administration is run, go talk to the guys in the funny hats.

For those on this forum, we are individuals mostly converts who are still discovering our faith and living it out as best we know how. If you want to hear stories of peope being helped through outreach, I can give them to you. If you are just blowing off steam, then this is your issue. I find it offensive that you feel the need to call people out and testing us and think just because the parishes you have visited represent ALL parishes in this country. I know of parishes that hold weekly cook outs for the community in south Texas. ANother that has a food pantry and clothing store in West texas. another that feeds the homeless in area shelters in my area. I can attest the faith is being preached in each of these cases. But again, this is the parish doing all these things. Individuals are doing more on their own than at the structured outreach events.

You have pain, I recognize that and am very sorry you have been hurt. But all you are doing is lashing out and it is not constructive for anyone.

Whatever you post, make it count. Say, as in ... if God stopped you in mid sentence, and asked you: Are you showing my deluded sister what I have taught you? What would you say?

First God would not do this. He would ask me how I spent my "talents" or ask me how I showed His love, but you can't make up scenarios and expect an answer only you know the answer to.

How have I spent my talents? I have wasted more than I have invested. But I am learning how to be all He has expected of me to be.

How have I showed His love? Poorly at times, and selfishly at others, but I am learning what it means to Love and I am getting better at being my brothers keeper.

This thing called Orthodoxy is not easy, but it really is. We love each other as best we can. We help others as much as we are able. We cry when others cry and laugh when others laugh. We become all things to all people. We meet them where they are.

Some people are as white washed tombs. People will be people.

Forgive me. I tend to have little sense at times.

Paul

Ophelia

18-08-2011, 09:36 AM

Paul, I appreciate your honesty. You hit the nail on the head, friend. America. Infancy. If you are going to claim that you are the true Faith ... you need to do more than be angry at me for challenging you. I don't really care that you think I'm in error. If I am calling out people on this site to defend their personal witness then shame on me? Where should I go then? Am I lashing out? Or am I merely pointing out that the infancy needs to move into spiritual maturity. If all you have are words for now, make them count. Don't tell me I'm spiritually deluded; of course I'm deluded. Who isn't? Was it Bishop Ignatius that said "we are all in some form of prelest"? Share your wisdom. Show your love. I've got real questions. Can you answer them? Explain the purpose of Chrismation. Go deeper for me. The priest asked me to write an outreach packet for the church because he didn't have the time ... Chrismation ...words ... chrisma / Christos, etc ... "Chrismation is also an ordination into the ranks of the laity" (explain this ...a membership?) We become filled with love, hope, light and joy, which empowers us to share what we know to be true and right. "To sum up Chrismation, we say that it is a grace-filled, spirit-filled event initiated by Christ, one that has been handed down from generation to generation for 2,000 years" (Fr Chris).
Can't I experience this without making a public event out of it?

"First God would not do this. He would ask me how I spent my "talents" or ask me how I showed His love, but you can't make up scenarios and expect an answer only you know the answer to." Didn't Christ do this very thing in His parables? Didn't He ask questions that only He knew the answer to? "God became man that man might become God" St Athanathius. Aren't we to follow Him?
I can appreciate your humbleness in your reply on this. Point; self reflection, tears of repentance. Synergism - communing with Him.

"We meet them where they are." You meet your fellow Orthodox where they are? Or, are you meeting me where I am? I am concerned with where you are meeting me. I had free access to this site. I became a junior member in a few clicks. Are you now telling me that I don't belong? Are you telling me that I'm asking the wrong questions of the wrong people? Look at 1 Corinthians 10:16, 17, It says that we partake of the blood and the bread that are the communion of Christ, even though we are many, we are that one bread and that one body. Since WE are the Church, we become the Body of Christ. This then leads to Matthew 16:18. I don't hear anything about Orthodoxy here. I understand this to mean ALL people. Explain how receiving the Eucharist is for the Orthodox only? I don't know the answer to this; I'm asking you.

As for being hurt. "Partake of instruction with a great amount of silver, and gain much gold with it." Wisdom of Sirach. I had to go through what I went through. What I show you is an area of need, not only on the streets but "in the church". So, a bunch of Orthodox got the love thing wrong. What will you tell me that will make this make sense for me? Where's the Scripture to support it? And where is YOUR support? If you are a priest and I come to you (and I was told by a priest that we too are priests), and I challenge you with my experiences and my questions, what do you tell me? Go find another site? Like the priest yelled at me: Go find another Church! Go to Orthodox such and such; the priest there has had an experience like yours. I ask, why not you? Why haven't you had the experience?

"This thing called Orthodoxy is not easy, but really it is." So long as nobody challenges you?

Paul, I'm new and always questioning. Is this wrong? I did not look at my words as a lashing but will accept that you did. I lashed at you? I apologize. Do you lash back? Do you tell me that I am in error to bring to light something wrong that has happened in Orthodoxy? In truth, I'm not really concerned with me here. I want to be able to take something away from this engagement that I can use to "defend" or "explain" Orthodoxy for others. I want to believe that this "religion" is the real deal; I really do, but I need more.

Sincerely,
the ever-so-hungry ... and thirsty

Herman Blaydoe

18-08-2011, 10:55 PM

I am sorry that you are so angry and frustrated and that an off-handed comment has offended you. I cannot speak to what treatment you have or have not received where you are. Whatever we are here in this forum, we are not (generally speaking) prescient. We did not know, when you came into this discussion with guns blazing that you had been so hurt.

This online community is not, of itself, a church. It is very difficult to minister in this venue. I would only hope and pray that were you to come to one of our parishes you might find a more Christian response than you seem to have received to date. Beyond that I do not know what sort of response you are looking for here.

I, for one, generally prefer smaller mission parishes. It can be very easy to get lost in the crowd in the larger churches. Even as an Orthodox Christian I, too, have been made to feel like an outsider in some places. We are not perfect, no group of humans is nor have been since the beginning as we see from the epistles of the Apostles. Their churches had pro lens too.

I pray you find a real community more attuned to your needs.

This should indeed be a lesson to all of us to be attentive to our witness.

Herman the non-prescient Pooh

Daniel R.

19-08-2011, 12:01 AM

Dear Ophelia,

I am sorry you have had a bad time and have been hurt. Your posts are quite long and I cannot realy address everything in them, but I would like to say a few things.

I believe you may be confusing two things Chrismation and Confession. A confession is made to the priest not to the general congregation, he represents both God in that he from the Apostles hears your confession and gives absolution after Christ's behest "If you forgive any man his sins they are forgiven him." and the Church about which Saint James said "Confess your sins to one another".

Chrismation is the anointing in oil which takes place after Baptism through which you are given the Holy Spirit and sealed with the Holy Spirit, in a way stamped as God's. It is like the laying on of hands by the bishop that takes place in Western churches.

Since WE are the Church, we become the Body of Christ. This is true in that those who partake of the Most Pure Body and Most Precious Blood of the Lord are members of His Church the Body of Christ. But this happens Only within the Holy Orthodox Church, therefore it is the Orthodox Church that is the Body of Christ.

This does not mean anyone should be nasty to you in anyway (and I am sorry about what ever has happened to you) rather they should help you and guide you to the Church.

You say you have many questions, think about them, which are the greatest to you now and look round the site maybe start a few treads about them, that way people can answer you about each question.

In Christ.
Daniel,

Ophelia

19-08-2011, 12:45 AM

To Herman ... Firstly, thanks for the consideration.

I leave you with one last, the most important point in this ... as pastors, priests, parishioners, sponsors, spiritual advisors, disciples and outreach persons, we never know what and who we are going to get. We never know how we will be challenged, in what manner. It should not matter whether I have guns blazing or not; what matters is how you conduct yourself. Do you need to know the backstory to be kind? To show love? To see past the mess and reel in the individual with automatic acceptance and sound explanation on what you believe as Truth? Gal. 5:22 Do you pick and choose your catechumens? Do you pick and choose who you approach in your outreach? Jesus went to the dishonest tax collectors, the prostitutes ... through this, He made a point to the self-righteous Pharisees.
If I had allowed myself to be negatively affected by what I'd heard about certain members in the Church I'd attended, what I'd heard from the lips of key individuals, and what I'd seen, I would have turned around and walked right out. If I had walked out, I never would have learned what I learned. I would never know how to work with the more challenging people. I would never know what it is to love those who have used and abused me, and I never would have experienced one of the themes I'd decided on long ago for book two of my trilogy - betrayal. You see, I went into the Greek Orthodox Church to do research for my trilogy. I read theology beforehand and much of the basics prior to going in. I liked what'd I'd read. Finally, after many, many years, I was seeing something I hadn't seen before. Interesting how there are no coincidences in Orthodoxy. No one speaks to me at the Church (they've got some issues they are having to deal with), but every now and then I fire off an e-mail and say, I love you.

I'm still researching.

Love in Christ,
formally Photini

Paul Cowan

19-08-2011, 06:54 AM

hummm, where to begin...

Can't I experience this without making a public event out of it?No, you can't. The church is a community. We are not a "me and my Jesus" club. We are our brothers' keepers and we have to look out for each other. St. Paul said we are to judge those in the church and let God judge those outside her. But yes, we are to help everyone. Jesus told St. Paul "Go into the town and it will be told you what to do". Jesus didn't instruct him, Ananias did. We fall into prelest if left alone too long to contemplate what we don't understand.

Didn't He ask questions that only He knew the answer to? You ain't Him. I know that is crass to say, but you blew in here like a tornado and expected all of us to know your story and respond in the way you demanded the first time all the while judging us on our acts of charity or the lack thereof. You don't know us and we don't know you. But you expect us to have all YOUR answers without knowing anything of YOUR past. Every story has two sides, we only get to hear yours.

You meet your fellow Orthodox where they are? Or, are you meeting me where I am? I am concerned with where you are meeting me. I had free access to this site. I became a junior member in a few clicks. Are you now telling me that I don't belong? Are you telling me that I'm asking the wrong questions of the wrong people? Of course I am meeting you where you are. You are here and this is where we met. If I see a naked man on the street, I know what his needs are. I will clothe and feed him. After all your accusations above, I still don't know "what" you want of us except to give you answers to give to other people that you still have not well enunciated. Seems to me YOU need the answers for yourself first. I don't know where you get from my posts that you don't belong here. I never said that. You are taking my direct rebuttals from your "test" of us as though you are not welcome. Perhaps you are asking the wrong questions to the wrong people. You should direct your questions of pain at those that hurt you, not complete strangers. We can offer you support and comfort, but we can't change you past or explain why whatever happened happened. Personally, I shy away from people who are in my face. But if approached with respect and sincerety, I am very open and honest. I guess I am being a little too open and honest on this post, but I care about the people here and I tend to give what I get. I know your first post was not directed at me specifically but you made it about me when you jumped on the group. Who am I? I ain't nobody. I won't pretend to be. I'm just real riled up over this.

I understand this to mean ALL people. Explain how receiving the Eucharist is for the Orthodox only? I don't know the answer to this; I'm asking you. Jesus gave the first eucharist only to His disciples in the upper room. He didn't give it to people on the street. Also St. Paul says we are sick becuase we eat to our condemnation. We don't know what we are doing by taking the Body and Blood of Christ into ourselves without first preparing for Him. How much less are those outside the church not prepared for It. We safeguard our sacraments from those that would do harm to them or to themselves. Have you not read during the first centuries and even today those that were not yet baptised including the catechumens were ordered out during the Liturgy at "The doors, the doors"? Though I have never actually seen anyone being ushered out, I have heard some jurisdictions still do.

What will you tell me that will make this make sense for me? Where's the Scripture to support it? And where is YOUR support?Nothing at this point will make sense to you. You are still too angry and not able to receive what we are telling you. Besides if you can't make sense from the writings of the fathers over the past 1700 years which you said you have read, what can we possibly say? It seems to me in trying to convince others of our faith you are getting "confused" by your agnostic and athiest friends. Scripture to support what? Scripture cannot be rightly understood without holy Tradition. You are not looking towards holy Tradition for answers, you have come to an internet forum with a bunch of strangers you can't see face to face. You can't see our expressions or hear the inflections in our voices. It is a POOR medium for a conversation. My support? is my conscious. My gut knows when something is right or not. I then go and research and find out the Truth of the matter. There is something about this whole conversation that is "just not right". There is another side to this we do not know, yet you want YOUR answers.

"This thing called Orthodoxy is not easy, but really it is." So long as nobody challenges you? I don't mind being challenged. Neither do most people on these boards. Just becuase the answers you get are not what you want to hear is not our problem. You will never get all your answers answered until you calm down and see what happended to you whatever it was is NOT the norm. I've heard Greeks especially ethnic Greeks can be a fiesty lot. Especially to a 21st century American who was taught a whole differnet set of cultural skills. Do you think St. Nicholas at the first ecumenical council was not empassioned when he slapped Arius in the face? Each time you type, you share another small bit of information. I find it hard to believe but I will believe you that your priest told you to leave and go find another church to attend. There has to be more to the story than dampening their Greek festival fundraiser. Orthodoxy is easy just as Christ's yoke is light. Love God with all your heart, all your mind and all your strength and love your neighbor as yourself. Do I do this all the time? heck no. I am the worst of sinners, but I try my very best to speak the truth as I know it and will correct myself and make amends when I am wrong.

Do you tell me that I am in error to bring to light something wrong that has happened in Orthodoxy? In truth, I'm not really concerned with me here. I want to be able to take something away from this engagement that I can use to "defend" or "explain" Orthodoxy for others. I want to believe that this "religion" is the real deal; I really do, but I need more. No, I tell you you are in error by your behaviour to strangers. Even friends do not use such strong language when they get into arguments. Like what? List some specific questions we can directly answer. Keep the posts short and don't overlap questions. It is really hard to answer multiple points in a long post and try to effectively cover everything. I know I did a poor job here, but the above stood out to me. Why do you feel the need to defend or explain this "religion"? It has stood the test of time and still grows. Our job is that of St. Phillip; "Come and see". Yes, we must know our faith. Yes, we must be able to say we believe the way we do, but we don't have to know it ALL. Your signature line says you "used" to be called Photini. So were you baptised? were you chrismated? Have you fallen away from the faith? Who are you and where do you stand in relation to your beliefs? How can we have a conversation without knowing you?

You have heard the expression you can get more flies with honey than vinegar? That's my beef with you. Ask questions. Don't attack and demand. Oh, and if you really need to know what acts of charity I personally do towards orthodox and nonOrthodox alike, Just PM me. I will not display what I do on the open forum.

Paul who cares, but is very frustrated.

Effie Ganatsios

19-08-2011, 07:40 AM

Ophelia, can I just say that I too have some issues with Orthodox priests who are public servants in this country.

But this doesn't negate what our Church does. Here in my small city a supermarket has been established. People who are having a hard time feeding or clothing their families can visit this supermarket and get whatever they want, without paying even one cent.

There is also a type of "soup kitchen" where ladies, who volunteer for this work and are not paid for it, prepare meals for others. Some people come and eat in the dining room, but a lot of packets are prepared and taken to the homes of those who are unable to visit the facilities. Sadly, the number of needy families has increased in the last couple of years.

In cities such as Athens and Thessaloniki there are soup kitchens where people who live on the streets can eat a hot lunch. I never thought that I would see homeless people here in Greece such as we saw in other countries on TV in the past, but this hideous phenomenon has reached us. A lot of these people are illegal immigrants but there are also lots of Greeks.
The Church, together with others, provides this service.

The Greek Orthodox Church has many missions in various countries in Africa. These heroic priests provide housing, schools, and work for many people.

I have been taught that, as an individual, I should be silent and gentle concerning my religion. When asked, however, I can answer any and all questions that I am capable of answering. My life, itself, should be an example to others of what my religion is. I am sad to say that I fail here. A priest is the right person to answer questions about our religion but sometimes the initial questions can be answered by you.

As Paul says, we all help others. But, we do not discuss this. Don't let your right hand know what your left hand is doing. Helping others has to be done discreetly because it is important that a person maintains his dignity. Today's helper might be tomorrow's needy.

There are thousands of Orthodox who go about their daily lives, helping others. Should they make themselves known? Of course not. I know of several in my circle of friends who make me ashamed of my selfish life. Their lives are an example to me. Think of the thousands I don't know about. It's so easy to look at only the obvious.

God is One. He is the same God for everyone. There are good people in every religion just as there are arrogant people who think that their religion is the only one. We tend to dump all our terrible human faults on God forgetting that He is pure love and nothing else.

The Orthodox religion does not need to be defended to anyone. I love the fact that it is such a free religion. My relationship with God is personal. My aim is to be an imitator of Christ and to find oneness with God. I have said this before but it is still as true as it was years ago - my life with our Lord seems to consist of one step forward and two steps back, but I keep trying.

Love yourself, love life, but most of all love God.

Effie

Ophelia

19-08-2011, 06:13 PM

Alice

19-08-2011, 06:15 PM

Ophelia said something that happened at the Greek festival. I am a cradle, Greek American born and raised Orthodox. I have been in many Greek Orthodox parishes from birth. One must understand that in every parish, there are those who are there as an extension of their secular business, those who are there to experience their culture or language, those who are there because it is a nice place to go on Sundays to meet up with others of their same ethnic background, (because we Greeks have a strong and beautiful culture passed down to us through our families, and we want to share that with others who have experienced that unique upbringing), those who are there because going to Church on Sundays is a wholesome thing to do for them and their little ones, those who are there because they are truly following Christ and the difficult walk of Orthodoxy, and those who are there who are perhaps there for a little bit of each one of these reasons.

Those who are there for 'business' and 'community standing' are the most gruff, and probably the least Christianly sensitive. They love being on church boards, making decisions, and 'running the show'. We have all met them, and I am not judging them because if it were not for their generous donations, we wouldn't have all that we have in our parishes.. 'Chacun a son gout', as the French say...

Unfortunately, however, they are perhaps the ones who turn off the other ones the most. However, this is a generalization, because there are some parishes where the parish boards are comprised of truly devout men and women, because the Priest has deemed that more important than their financial status, and has encouraged such a Christian parish board.

What I am finally getting to, is that in each Greek Orthodox Church, if you search beneath the surface of the Sunday congregants, and go to the Bible Studies, the special evening services like Vespers, Salutations, Supplications, Complines, etc... (which the majority don't care about or find inconvenient) you will find yourself within a small but core group of people from different walks of life, and be assured that THEY are the *real church* within the particular Church-- they are walking the walk, and they are probably the non-judgemental, the compassionate, and the loving and understanding ones who are living their spiritual and secular lives the way a true Christian is supposed to be...They are likely to also be the ones who have probably carried or are carrying heavy crosses of their own, so they will be there to help you carry yours.

Ophelia

19-08-2011, 06:33 PM

Alice, I was one to go to all of those services. The priest gave me the name Photini. I asked him why; he said: You are illumined. Where are these people now? I've called and e-mailed, even apologizing and telling those few I had contact with: I love you, I might die tomorrow, or you might die, let's talk, tell me what happened! NO ONE will speak to me.

I can't tell you everything, but this behavior tells me that they are hiding something.

Ophelia

19-08-2011, 08:06 PM

Alice, I was having my lunch and thought I'd check the Today's Meditation on the Episcopal site. It really caught my attention.

This was part of it ...

"People generally are generous, but in a culture where gift-giving can get perilously close to a bribe it takes some care not to be more influenced by the larger donations than the smaller ones. The poor widow of this morning’s gospel is our guide in this. She is vulnerable with no one to support her and yet she generously gives not from her abundance but from the little she had. Her offering challenges us all—whether giving or receiving—to the same generosity."

Please understand, while in the church, I was happy. I did not see the church as doing anything wrong. Rich - poor, it wasn't on my mind. Color? It's a GR OC, it's full of Greeks! No surprise. That's why I was there. The protagonist in my trilogy is Greek. I wanted to learn those beautiful faith traditions. At one point, the priest told me that my view as an outsider was critical. That's when the idea of the newcomer packet came about. It was after I was out of the church that I began to really question and look at things differently. What am I really seeing here? Why did they want a quick Chrismation? Why didn't they want the festival visitors to attend Liturgy. Don't they want the church to grow? This is why I question Chrismation. Maybe in an Antiochian Church it is meant as one thing, but in some cradle Orthodox-filled Greek Churches it is quite another. Maybe there is a certain set of rules that are understood once you are Chrismated in this church. Maybe you no longer have a voice. Although, there is a gentleman in this church that I've been told screams at all of the priests and speaks condescendingly to parishioners. Maybe he rules.

Paul Cowan

20-08-2011, 02:56 AM

Paul ... "Christ you ain't." I set myself up for this. Once again, deliberately. Why? I think you can figure this one out on your own.

There is a little balloon icon in the tool bar directly above the reply box when you type. You can cut and paste text into it once you click on it and it will show a quote as a quote. Just an FYI.

It took me 3 years to graduate form a 2 year school and 7 years to graduate from a 4 year school. I don't do tests well. I am not the brightest lamp in the room. Let me share a "man" rule with you...
1) Don't hint at somthing
2) Don't drop suggestions
3) Don't give obvious suggestions
4) If you want something say so
5) If you want something specific, spell it out. We're only men and can't read minds like women can.

So no, I can't figure this out on my own. Why don't you tell me?

I do want to thank and commend you for your tone on your latest 2 posts. They have been right down pleasant to read. THANK YOU. I think you will find more people will engage with you when you are "yourself".

As far as a unity of all jurisdictions, I think that goes as far as the creed and the canons of the Councils. I have read and heard about much diversity on just about everything else. So to say for unity's sake all jursidictions should claim responsibility for other jurisdictions actions, I don't see this ever happening. Just as we as laymen can coach and guide each other, our heirarchs have to police themselves as well. Yes, laymen can and do act as "watchdogs" but it is ultimately the Bishops that correct wrong teachings.

Wrong faith is much different from wrong behaviours. Our clergy are more interested in protecting Ortho Doxia than how a certain parish treats vagrants. It doesn't make for good publicity for sure, and the Dean of the area should help the ruling Bishop correct the area priests if necessary. But all this is speculation well outside my paygrade.

My priest told me not to read the philokalia past book 1. Others in my praish have read book 4. What's up with that? I assumed because he knew me better and it would "harm" me in some way. So I obeyed. You can find the same true for hesychasm from differetn fathers across the centuries. It's not that there is a split in the church, it is more that they are giving instruction to specific people at a specific time and it just looks to us outsiders as if no one can come up with a concensus on the Prayer.

Those parishes that hold too close to the chest for ethnicity sakewill wither and die. If a parish is not constantly inviting and converting newcomers, it will cease to exist. It happens. Very sad. And this is what is happening to the church in Hattiesburg. It apparently is an older congregation or they haven't learned how to invite newcomers. So instead of bulldozing a perfectly good church, why shouldn't this Orthodox parish wait them out? Who knows, they might get the keys and the church's directory both on the same day and convert all these people.

Paul

Effie Ganatsios

20-08-2011, 09:59 AM

Okay, all ... addressing just a few.

Effie, awesome, however, as much I agree and participate in the soup kitchens and the clothing drives ... I was directed to John 6:26-29 last night. I had an empty plastic baggie marking this spot. I thought, "An empty baggie? Where did this come from?" I read the verses. 27: Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has a set His seal on Him.
This brings me to the experience. Why aren't we inviting the needy into the Churches? This was my experience. Remember? It seems as if the GR OC did not want this. My thinking is this: feed them, cloth them but also help them help themselves ... by having them sit with you in worship. Share the Word. You can be as silent as you want in this but my feeling is that they need to be with you in church, or Bible Study, or some assembly of sharing, and very much need your spiritual council.

I have little doubt that most of you attend wonderful churches. You have, rich, full lives in Orthodoxy and are learning. I would be in your church in a flash. I apologize for my initial "accusation", in a way, only because I know that it is not a kind thing to charge others (and certainly goes against much of the desert teachings, except in the area of changing anger to righteous indignation - Look it up). It was deliberate because I wanted to hear how you would respond to my "accusations". If not true, my bad, but if you are all ONE in Orthodoxy, as I have been told repeatedly, Greek, Antiochian, Russian, etc, then surely you take responsibility for the behavior of ALL. If this is not true, then I have been misinformed. If true, then ... you decide. I was a quiet and gentle person in the church (was given the name Photini long before I was ready for Chrismation. I was told I was illumined). Suddenly, I was put in a position where I was treated with "harshness and demands". Remember, there are many people on the outside that have experienced religious abuse and WILL challenge you on your religion/faith. Will you be prepared to answer them in a way that will warm their hearts?

Love in Christ

Ophelia, the Church you describe is not the Church I know. I have seen the faithful object strongly to what a priest who was at odds with one of the women on the church council said during the liturgy. He refused to give her communion. Shouts of "shame, shame" echoed throughout the church.

I have seen an old man, a retired doctor, put the Metropolitan in his place when the latter used his sermon to air his personal grievances concerning the fact that the Archeological Society of Kozani (my city) would not go along with his plans to build a new luxurious mansion in place of the 500 year old one that was in use. The plans that had been approved guaranteed that the new building would remain faithful to its original design. The building had been renovated extensively throughout its lifetime of course - just making it clear that the building itself (except for it's 1 1/2 meter walls) was not 500 years old...........................

Another instance of this Metropolitan misusing his power is even more pitiful. He evicted the poor students from a building that had been donated to the Church specifically for young people from the surrounding areas who were unable to pay high rents during their lyceum and university years in this city. He has also built a luxurious "mansion" which he calls his "retreat" complete with swimming pool, etc. The little church that stood on this hill before he started his building mania, is now closed to the faithful.

Nothing and no-one is perfect. We have a duty to try to amend what is wrong. I have seen this in action.

The Church doesn't discriminate against poor people, etc. Those people I mentioned in my first post who are helped by the Church dress nicely and attend Church services every Sunday. We don't even know who receives help and who doesn't.

Ophelia, what are you hoping to find on this forum?

You write : " It was deliberate because I wanted to hear how you would respond to my "accusations". If not true, my bad, but if you are all ONE in Orthodoxy, as I have been told repeatedly, Greek, Antiochian, Russian, etc, then surely you take responsibility for the behavior of ALL. "

I think that the posters on this thread have been kind towards you and have tried to explain a few things.

How can we all be "responsible" for things that happen in other churches and in other parts of the world?

My logic is the following : What is happening around me? What can I do to make things better? We are the Church. Each individual.

I am no theologian but there is obviously something wrong with your logic. We have wise, experienced priests on this forum and they can answer you about collective responsibility and even guilt.

Ophelia, again I ask you. What are you hoping for? I can understand that you are feeling hurt because of something that happened to you in a specific Orthodox Church in the US. Are you trying to understand why it happened. Do you believe that there is no conflict, or harsh behaviour, or even rudeness in other churches?

You give the impression that you have read a great deal about specific areas of Orthodoxy, but what about love?

I'm sorry but I cannot understand your reasoning.

Your sister in Christ
Effie

Ophelia

20-08-2011, 11:54 AM

Good morning, Paul ... regarding the quote toolbar, I'm aware of it but prefer to write out the quotes. It helps me help myself to know exactly what I've read.
As for more pleasant posting ... Do you see how I responded to Alice and Effie's initial posts? They were more "pleasant" because their posts were more "pleasant", and, more informative ... much less "reactionary". As a person involved in missionary work, you will find yourself with a mixed bag. When you reach into that bag, you don't know what you are going to pull out. Often times what you've got on your hands is a situation that is frustrating (I think frustration is a word you used). If someone comes to you full of resentment and bitterness (which truthfully, I am not, but am very concerned with how others are treated), and accusatory words, your initial dealing with this person is very critical. This is just a post, but it seems to be the way so many priests have chosen to communicate with their parishioners. Without seeing facial expressions and body language, you really don't know to the fullest extent what that person is saying, or feeling. So, your initial response will say a lot. I am not the vagrant on the street, but what if I had been on the streets? What if I had been sexually abused by a priest, which made me such a mental wreck that I ended up homeless, and I tried to enter that great House of Healing, called the Hospital, and was rejected because:

1. I did not look respectable.

2. I had little money to help in keeping the Church looking and being what it is.

3. I was suffering depression / mental illness / alcoholism ...

Sometimes, we only get one chance. We can jump all over that person and pretty much confirm what they are thinking about organized religion. And trust me, what the youth are taught in schools is that organized religion (which they often confuse with God) is destructive and hypocritical. "Look what has happened in the Name of Jesus" ... I've heard. No, look what's happened in the name of religion.

I went online looking to learn, and continue my research. I found and read your post and saw "withering people" - humans, not a religion. It is people that make up the Church, if I understand "I say to you Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it." I don't see a building with 4 walls, I see people, and Christ within, and I really don't care who they are, where they are from, whether they are man or woman, black or white, rich or poor, or which religion they choose ... they are God's children. I asked you what they would be converting to. Read your reply again. If this is all I had to go on, I would look for another religion. I chose to challenge this based on fact - things I had experienced and witnessed. And I've only shared a smidgeon of what happened and what's happening in my neck of the woods. You see, Paul, my health and well-being were in danger, not to mention the the well-being of my family. When people want to protect something, they will go to great lengths to protect it. I will say no more on this.

Effie, all I can say is, read all of the posts. I did mention love. This is the point of my reasoning. If I slap your right cheek, do you turn for me to slap you on the left? Page 252 Volume One The Philokalia ... Definition on LOVE: growing affection for those who abuse us. I've spent that last 11 months praying for that Greek Cathedral and asking God when I can go back to help them help themselves. Believe me, it hasn't been easy, and I have fallen short many, many times.

I sincerely apologize where I have offended someone on this site. Truly, this is not the person that I am within. As Theophan the Recluse says : Descend with the mind to the heart. I used my head. Sometimes as artists (I'm a painter), we overstep boundaries - go into dangerous waters - to seek a deeper understanding on certain things. This isn't always right; it isn't always safe; it doesn't always make sense. I thank you all for putting up with me, sharing things, and helping me to see a little better where Orthodoxy is headed. I am going on the road for awhile. When I return, I think I may be ready to begin my icon - if it be God's Will.

PS the idea of testing you came from an Orthodox priest and his wife.

Love in Christ