How do the saints hear each of us at the same time?

[Paul Cowan]

I have tried to search the archives for this one, but did not see a question like this.

In venerating icons and offering prayers through the Saints, How does this work? My question is in the multiplicity of the icons around the world. If God alone is omnipresent, how do the Saints and the Theotokos hear our prayers in front of icons across the globe?

Or another way to put it, if the Theotokos has made an appearance as in Fatima, she was physically there. How could she hear the prayer of, say Joe, in Cleveland at the same time? If each of us prays before the iconostasis each Sunday in our own Parishes, are our prayers a communal river of prayer meeting in a great vortex rising to Heaven all to be heard in a single mass clutter by each Saint? Some sort of super prayer telephone highway.

If icons are windows to Heaven, are we collectively throwing open the sash and screaming (reverently) through the open window to that Saint? Or is that particular saint noncorpreally (sp) with his ear to each and every icon of him or herself around the world?

still confused,
Paul

[Father David Moser]

In venerating icons and offering prayers through the Saints, How does this work? My question is in the multiplicity of the icons around the world. If God alone is omnipresent, how do the Saints and the Theotokos hear our prayers in front of icons across the globe?

There is only one answer to this - God's grace is what allows the saints to "hear" us in the first place - and so it is God's grace that gives order and structure to our prayers. The answer is simply, "God's grace"

How does the brain sort out the millions of nerve impluses that race to it simultaneously. How is it that the nerve impulses don't just turn into one big shock to the brain. What keeps the multilplicity of sensations separate so that we hear sounds and see sights and taste tastes - but don't hear tastes and see sounds and taste sights. If God can manage to create us with such a complexity that we don't (or at least only rarely) get these things mixed up, then certainly the various parts of the Body of Christ can talk to each other in a way that keeps from getting the communications confused.

Fr David Moser

[Antonios]

...how do the Saints and the Theotokos hear our prayers in front of icons across the globe?

By the power of Love.

[Andrew]

Saints are deified by the uncreated energies of God, true sons and daughters of the Father. Thus, they are like the Trinity because they partake of the Trinity; Love knows no bounds, and since pure Love lives within the Saints, they live within Love and Light which is eternal, unending, and everywhere. So, as Christ ascended to the Right Hand of the Father with His and Our Human Nature, so have the Saints. He is the firstborn of the Elect, and we are ones who follow in His footsteps. The saints are those who have reached the Destination, which is totally unending, from Glory to Glory.

[Robert Hegwood]

Before a genuine prayer is words or thought it is first a movment of the heart. That movement, if I am not mistaken is the prayer itself. Words and thoughts just clothe it...make it intelligible to us. But God sees the heart and in Him so do His Saints who are made to be partakers of His nature.

And what is the answer to prayer but an answering movement? If you take a dry cloth and touch it to a wet sponge, the dry cloth will get wet with just that touch just like the woman with the issue of blood was healed without a word but with the touch of her hand in faith to Christ.

If ten thousand cloths are touched at the same time to the same sponge so long as the wetness in the sponge is greater than the dryness of the clothes...every one will be moistened at a single touch.

If the language of heaven is silence as the Father's teach, and if the Saints continually are found in His presence, then the multitude of words pouring towards the saints matter not at all. What matters is the outreaching of ten thousand hearts to touch them to draw down from them the grace that the Lord communicates through them. So long as the Saints are bathed and drenched in that grace millions can call upon them at a single time...each a single touch in faith through which the grace of God flows unimpeded by tickers and conversation counters. On top of this they stand outside space and time as we experience it and are not limited by it as we are. So for the Saints in Christ there is no hindrence.

Another model I like to use by way of explaination is the human body. If I hit my thumb with a hammer, my other hand instantly comes to its aid to comfort it. My breathing changes to force oxygenate my blood to stimulate healing, and even my step alters either get that hand to a place of aid or to keep from jarring it while it mends. How does one hand know the other is in pain? How do my lungs know to breathe deeply and my feet to step lightly. My head. How do the members of the Body of Christ become aware so as to help another needy or hurting member. the Head of the Body, Jesus Christ our God.

At least this is how I understand it. If I'm mistaken, I'm open to correction.

[Trudy]

Before a genuine prayer is words or thought it is first a movment of the heart.

Glory To God!

This is a wonderful, wonderful explanation Robert. Thank you for posting it. If I may, I would like to keep this for use in Sunday school for illustrative purposes when I teach the kids about prayer.

~Athanasia~

[Paul Cowan]

Thank you all for your replys. Your answers are wonderful but I am still having a hard time grasping this. Perhaps I should just accept the miracle as one and let well enough alone?

Paul

[Nina]

Dear Paul,

Please read these passages from Saint Siluan:

"God is love; and the Holy Spirit in the Saints is love. By the Holy Spirit is the Lord made known. By the Holy Spirit is the Lord magnified in heaven. By the Holy Spirit the Saints glorify God, and with the gifts of the Holy Spirit does the Lord give glory to the Saints, and this glory shall have no end. [...]

In heaven all things live and move in the Holy Spirit. But this same Holy Spirit is on earth, too. The Holy Spirit dwells in our Church; in the sacraments; in the Holy Scriptures; in the souls of the faithful. The Holy Spirit unites all men, and so the Saints are close to us; and when we pray to them they hear our prayers in the Holy Spirit, and our souls feel that they are praying for us. How happy and blessed are we Orthodox Christians, that the Lord has given us life in the Holy Spirit; and He makes glad our souls. [...]

The Saints live in another world, and there through the Holy Spirit they behold the glory of God and the beauty of the Lord's countenance. But in the same Holy Spirit thy see our lives, too, and our deeds. They know our sorrows and hear our ardent prayers. In their lives they learned of the love of God from the Holy Spirit; and he who knows love on earth takes it with him into eternal life in the Kingdom of Heaven, where love grows and becomes perfect. And if love makes one unable to forget a brother here, how much more do the Saints remember and pray for us!

The Lord bestowed the Holy Spirit on the Saints, and in the Holy Spirit they love us. The souls of the Saints know the Lord and His goodness toward man, wherefore their spirits burn with love for the people. While they were still on earth they could not without sorrow hear tell of sinful men, and in their prayers shed tears for them. [...]

The holy Saints have attained the Kingdom of Heaven, and there they look upon the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ; but by the Holy Spirit they see, too, the sufferings of men on earth. The Lord gave them such great grace that they embrace the whole world with their love. They see and know how we languish in affliction, how our hearts have withered within us, how despondency has fettered our souls; and they never cease to intercede for us with God. [...]

Call with faith upon the Mother of God and the Saints, and pray to them. They hear our prayers and know even our inmost thoughts.
And marvel not at this. Heaven and all Saints live by the Holy Spirit and in all the world there is naught hidden from the Holy Spirit. Once upon a time I did not understand how it was that the holy inhabitants of heaven could see our lives. But when the Mother of God brought my sins home to me I realized that they see us in the Holy Spirit, and know our entire lives. The Saints hear our prayers and are possessed from God of the strength to help us. [...]
And we know of many an instance where the Saints come to our help the moment we call upon them. Thus is it evident that all heaven hears our prayers." (pp. 394-397)

Saint Silouan, the Athonite By Archimandrite Sophrony (Sakharov)

[Nina]

Also another great resource is this article:


...

The love, closeness, "sensitivity" of God for the prayers of the Saints



When we study the Scriptures, we form the specific impression of the love and closeness that exists between God and the Saints, and the sensitivity, one would say, of God towards the opinion and the prayers of His devoted children. We see Abraham for example, negotiating with God the salvation of Sodom and Gomorrah to such an extent, where he was making incessant propositions to God and God was accepting them (Gen 18: 23-33). The same happens with God heeded Moses' request, "Lord, why does Your wrath wax hot against Your people whom You have brought out of the land of Egypt with great power, and with a mighty hand?" (Ex 32: 9-14), and God did not punish His people.
It is recorded in the Book of Jeremiah that God would have forgiven the entire city of Jerusalem, if at least one righteous person existed in the city. "If you can find a man, if there be any that executes judgement, that seeks the truth, and I will pardon it" (Jeremiah 5:1).
Genesis (20: 7-17) illustrates God urging Abimelech, who became ill because he kidnapped Sarah, to return her to Abraham, because in the words of God, "For he is a prophet and he shall pray for you, and you will live". Abraham actually prayed to God, "and God healed Abimelech and his wife".
In 1 Samuel (7:8-9), the Children of Israel said to Samuel, "Cease not to cry to the Lord our God for us that He will save us out of the hand of the Philistines". Samuel did in fact pray, and the Lord heard him.
In the Book of Job (42:8-10), God ordered Eliphaz the Temanite and his two friends to bring to Job seven calves and seven rams so that Job could offer a sacrifice on their behalf. "And my servant Job shall pray for you, for him I will accept, lest I deal with you after your folly". Indeed, Job prayed for them and God forgave them. This is a classic example of the intervention of the Saints.


The Saints also pray in Heaven



Does God only heed the prayers of the Holy person who lives on earth?
The Scriptures inform us that the Saints in Heaven also pray for us, their brothers who are fighting "the good fight of faith" (2 Tim 4: 7), and by their intervention, miracles happen. We see that Elisha, even though he received twice as much prophetic power (2 Kings 2:9), was not able to divide the waters of the River Jordan. "And he took the mantle of Elijah that fell from him, and hit the waters, and said, where is the Lord of Elijah?" Afterwards, however, he struck the waters again and they parted (2 Kings 2:14). It is curious that the Scriptures of the Protestant Bible Society does not record the Prophet Elisha striking the waters twice in 2 Kings.
Judas Maccabeus had a vision where the high priest Onias, with outstretched arms toward Heaven, was praying for the entire Jewish nation. Afterwards in the same way, there appeared a respectable old man for whom Onias confirms, "This is God's Prophet Jeremiah, who loves his fellow Jews and offers many prayers for us and for Jerusalem, the holy city" (2 Maccabees 15:12-14). Again, this passage does not appear in Protestant Bibles that only include 39 out of the 49 books of the Old Testament. They do not recognize the other ten "Deuterocanonicals" as God inspired. Examples like these are encountered in both the Old and New Testaments.
Examples from the New Testament
St John the Evangelist says, " when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having everyone of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of the Saints" (Rev 5:8). Why should the prayers be contained in vials though? "Just as the contents of the sealed bottles are bound and secure, so too, it is evident that not one prayer is made in vain. "All of them secure, exactly as they were spoken go directly to the throne of God".
St John also sees God "keeping His promise" for revenge of their brothers, where previously, by the sealing of the righteous, the protection of their brothers who are still striving on the earth, is secure (Rev 8:3-5). "With the prayers of the Saints", comes the answer directly from the Altar and the throne of God, so that evil and the instruments of evil can be punished. "And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayer of the Saints, ascended up before God out of the Angel's hand" (Rev 8:3-5).
By using these examples from the Holy Scriptures as a base, without mentioning Holy Tradition, the following obvious conclusions are derived. The Word of God advises us to entreat the Saints to mediate for us as long as they are on the earth, and informs us that these supplications of the Saints are not in conflict, even in the slightest, with the benevolence of God the Father, or with the just reward of Jesus Christ the Saviour, who is the unique mediator between God and men.
Since the souls of the Saints, after death abandoned the earth and are in Heaven, even more so then, must we seek refuge in their prayers, now that they are in the constant and ceaseless presence with the Lord. Furthermore, their protection for us their striving brothers, should be stronger, now that they are glorified and are so close to God. The Word of God, which is a "two-sided sword", teaches that the Saints, our brothers, the members of the Triumphant Church, pray for us who still live on the earth and belong to the Militant Church.


Supernatural introspections of the Saints



The Holy Scriptures repeatedly speak of faithful servants of God, who while still living on earth and by means of supernatural introspection and revelation, knew all that was contained and hidden deep in the minds of other people or with a supernatural revelation, were informed of events that happed in places very distant from where they were. This is how the Apostle Peter knew of the secret agreement between Ananias and Sapphira, which was to lie to the Holy Spirit about the land they sold and the profit they had made (Acts 5:3-11).
Elisha was also supernaturally informed of all that Gehazi took from Naaman (i.e. two talents of silver and two changes of garments; 2 Kings 5: 21). Similarly, he was also informed of the secret war plans of the King of Syria, which he reported to the King of Israel (2 Kings 6:11-12). Another example is that of Jacob who saw an army of God's Angels that met with him (Gen 32:1).


Clear sighted gifts of the Saints



The Holy Scriptures assure us that apart of the supernatural introspections and revelations, the Saints of God were given the gift of clear sightedness. Even though they were still of human flesh, they were not prevented from seeing the invisible and spiritual world. In other words, they came to a direct communication with the heavenly world, "whether in the body or out of the body" (2 Cor 12: 2-4).
Isaiah saw "the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up", and around him stood the six-winged Seraphims, who cried out the triumphant hymn (Isaiah 6:1-3). Ezekiel also speaks of: "seeing visions of the Lord", which forces him to "fall upon his face" (Ezekiel 2:1-8, 10:1).
Another example is when the Apostle Paul was lifted up to Paradise where he heard "unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter" (2 Cor 12:2-4). Another is St John the Evangelist, who "in spirit" and in a way that is for us incomprehensible, was liberated from the obstacles of his earthly body and was able to see before the throne of God the 24 elders and the four beasts. This was when the Lamb had taken the book, "fell down before the Lamb, having everyone of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of the Saints" (Rev 5:8), and continues to have wonderful revelations for things that will happen until the end of the World.


How are the Saints able to hear our prayers?



The Omniscient and Almighty God, Who is present everywhere and knows of everything, is richly equipped of means with which He uncovers in the souls of his Saints, all that is happening in our tangible world, whether it be close or whether it be distant. With the use of our human and limited brain, we have found the means (telephone, wireless, satellites etc) to communicate with the other side of the world and to learn what is happening there, all in a matter of seconds. How then can the Saints, who are spirits, and have no material barriers to prevent them, and who are in direct communication with the Almighty God and the Divine Spirits, the Angels, have incomparable difficulties to learn of things'?
If we were to suppose the opposite that the souls of the Saints who are close to God, do not have the ability to learn of what is happening on earth since they are not present everywhere. This would be like accepting that even though they are close to God, they are in a much worse position than when they were on the earth where with their deteriorating human flesh they perceived supernatural revelations and had the gift of clear sightedness. Is this then not blasphemy against the Holy Spirit?
We do not know by which means the Virgin Mary and the Saints are informed of our prayers. What we do know with absolute certainty from the Word of God is that they pray for us and that their prayers reach God. Furthermore, the Orthodox Church teaches that all who are Christians (in the Militant Church), together with all the Saints (in the Triumphant Church), are joined to the Body of Christ (Eph 5:30). Each one of us, not just because we regard ourselves as Orthodox Christians, constitutes a living cell of the Body of Christ and consequently, one belongs to the other, and can and must express by every means this brotherly bond.
It is because of this tender brotherly bond of the Holy people that the population of an entire city is saved, (Joshua 11: 8-9). However, "charity never fails" (1 Cor 13:8), and it will not cease to exist. This tender bond of brotherly love binds us all, with all the Saints, with the entire Church.
One beautiful scene of the Revelation depicts the close connection of the Saints with the members of the Militant Church. In this scene, St John records, "I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, how long O Lord, holy and true, do You not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given to every one of them; and it was said to them that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow-servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled" (Rev 6:9-11). This moving scene shows just how united the Saints are with us, and how much they participate "in our happiness and sorrow" as they mediate for us before the throne of God (also refer to Luke 15: 7).
This close bond of love is evident in the most sacred part of the Divine Liturgy, which says, "Especially for our most Holy Virgin Mary", and "Having commemorated all the Saints, again and again... Let us commend ourselves and one another and our whole life to Christ our Lord".
"Thus, since all the Saints have been commemorated at the end of the bloodless Sacrifice... in particular the most Holy Virgin Mary... let us entrust ourselves with whole-hearted confidence, let us entrust each other and the whole of our lives to Christ, our true God."



You may read the article here (http://members.optusnet.com.au/%7Egoawa/prayers.html).

[Paul Cowan]

Dear Nina:
THANK YOU! This completely answered my question. Now to repent for my blasphemy.


If we were to suppose the opposite that the souls of the Saints who are close to God, do not have the ability to learn of what is happening on earth since they are not present everywhere. This would be like accepting that even though they are close to God, they are in a much worse position than when they were on the earth where with their deteriorating human flesh they perceived supernatural revelations and had the gift of clear sightedness. Is this then not blasphemy against the Holy Spirit?

We do not know by which means the Virgin Mary and the Saints are informed of our prayers. What we do know with absolute certainty from the Word of God is that they pray for us and that their prayers reach God. Furthermore, the Orthodox Church teaches that all who are Christians (in the Militant Church), together with all the Saints (in the Triumphant Church), are joined to the Body of Christ (Eph 5:30). Each one of us, not just because we regard ourselves as Orthodox Christians, constitutes a living cell of the Body of Christ and consequently, one belongs to the other, and can and must express by every means this brotherly bond.

It is because of this tender brotherly bond of the Holy people that the population of an entire city is saved, (Joshua 11: 8-9). However, "charity never fails" (1 Cor 13:8), and it will not cease to exist. This tender bond of brotherly love binds us all, with all the Saints, with the entire Church.


My appreciation to Fr Angelos Drapaniotis for this article.

In Christ
Paul

[Olga]

Hello Paul

I am interested to find out from where you got this article.

[Paul Cowan]

It came from Nina's post #9 (at the end)

Paul

[Nina]

Dear Nina:
Now to repent for my blasphemy.

Christ is Risen!

Dear Paul,

I do not think your question classifies as blasphemy, for the simple fact that it was an innocent one. A blasphemy in this case would be if one has the information, but still refuses to believe or let his heart open up to God and Truth. Elder Porphyrios says something beautiful about the opening of the heart, that I will quote later here.



My appreciation to Fr Angelos Drapaniotis for this article.

In Christ
Paul

Yes, Paul! Thank you for doing that for me also! I just posted the link but forgot the name of the author. Forgive me please. When I posted the article for you was late (I think it was around 2AM) and my eyes were closing and I was very tired from all postings I did before that... and from a very long day - actually I was supposed to be on vacation and not on monachos.net ... Ufff I guess I was on monachos.net because I had a monachos.net withdrawal (same as now) :)

[Kusanagi]

Of course things work differently on the other side beyond our understanding. I believe it is through the grace of God that they can hear all these things.

BTW Why do you being Orthodox believe in Mother of God appearing in Fatima?

[Paul Cowan]

BTW Why do you being Orthodox believe in Mother of God appearing in Fatima?


Is there a reason not to? Is the Mother of God ONLY available to the Orthodox and not all mankind? The same goes for Guadalupe, Lourdes, Mt. Carmel and others. I don't think we have a monopoly on Her.

Paul

[Effie Ganatsios]

Paul, others have answered fully but I'd just like to tell you about my first reaction when I read your original message.

I believe we make a mistake in thinking that the way we behave and think here on earth has anything to do with our souls in the afterlife. You asked how could saints or the Theotokos hear everyone at the same time. But, Paul, this would mean that they have physical bodies with ears just like we do and we know that's not so because our physical bodies decay and are no more.

The above is simplistic of course but it was my first reaction and something that I really had not thought about before. So, thank you for your question.



Effie

[Matthew Panchisin]

Is there a reason not to?

Yes many, among them the Mother of God does not issue threats.


In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin

[Maria Mahoney]

Is There An Invisible Church?

by Protopresbyter Michael Pomazansky

"In our Orthodox Church, however, communion of soul and mind, all our striving, everything is directed to the Heavenly Church, so that it, being invisible, becomes almost visible, and from the distance of the heavenly heights becomes the closest thing to us.

But isn't our communion with the Heavenly Church one sided? Does it give benefit to the soul? The saints hear us in the same way one soul hears another. And more than this: on earth the contact between people through the bodily organs of sense somewhat impedes and hinders the immediate communion of souls, but in the heavenly-earthly sphere this communion is free. In this sphere our voice, our words, reading and singing in the work of prayer are necessary for ourselves, for our sake, so as to unite two or three of us or a whole church into a single common soul, "That with a single heart we may hymn" God and His saints."

http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/pomaz_invisible.htm


"In the future life (in heaven) the Saints hold inner converse with one another, the Holy Spirit speaking in them." (St. Gregory of Sinai).

Through Theosis, a synergistic process involving the co-operation of man's will with the grace of God, through the Holy Spirit, we crumbs are gathered into the one Bread, that is Christ, as the Body of Christ. Our lives are hidden in Christ. The only ones who truly live are those who live in Christ, that is ... the Church... militant AND triumphant (Saints)... we are ONE in the Body of Christ, that is our salvation! ONE in the Holy Spirit!


"that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; That they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me."


"For we, though many, are one bread and one body; for we all partake of that one bread." (1 Corinthians 10:17) Footnote in the Orthodox Study Bible: "For at Communion, at the Eucharist, there is real participation in the Body and Blood of Christ. Just as Christ's human body is united to Him, so we are united to Him. As many grains become one loaf, those who take this communion become one in Christ."

It isn't the bread that makes the Holy Communion of the BODY of Christ... it is the Holy Spirit which dwells within us, the Orthodox Church... Having been given to Her by Christ Himself!

And really, if you want to get technical.... the main point of it all is, that WE are the bread that is becoming the Body of Christ! Just as the bread on the Altar becomes the Body of Christ, through Partaking of His Body and through the Holy Spirit, we become the Body of Christ, the Church.

WE ARE THE SACRIFICE...

The bread being sacrificed on the Altar stands as a symbol of all of us who have been Baptised into Christ... who offer ourselves, our lives.... all we have and are, as a sacrifice to be raised up into the Body of Christ. "Thine own of Thine own we offer to Thee, in all and for all." All creation reunited in Christ... in His Sacrifice on the Cross. He offerred Himself for us... we offer ourselves back to Him... it is the mystical circle.


"1I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
2And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God." (Romans 12).

In Christ,
Maria

[Florianos]

God bless!!


Yes many, among them the Mother of God does not issue threats


It is not true that the Mother of God does not issue threats!!
Often she sent messages from Gods anger in orthodox church history!
I know many of such !!!

In CHRIST

Alexander

[Paul Cowan]

Dear ALexander,


I know many of such !!!

Can you share some of these with us? Our veneration of the Theotokos and the RC view of Mariology and the Protestant view of Mary are always a tense topic when I try to explain the EO position to my family. All tools I can get are appreciated.

Paul

[Matthew Panchisin]

Dear Alexander,



It is not true that the Mother of God does not issue threats!!
Often she sent messages from Gods anger in orthodox church history!
I know many of such !!!

If you know many of such, do yourself and us a favor and try not to know them.

In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin

[Kusanagi]

Dear ALexander,



Can you share some of these with us? Our veneration of the Theotokos and the RC view of Mariology and the Protestant view of Mary are always a tense topic when I try to explain the EO position to my family. All tools I can get are appreciated.



Paul

Can you tell me who views the appearance of the Mother of God at catholic holy places as real?
How did they find out it was real?

I shall repost the Orthodox version when later as it took me forever to write it.

[Florianos]

God bless!!



Can you share some of these with us?l

Here are some one:
Saint -Eldress Myrtidiotissa or Klissoura who died 1974 sometimes spoke about things wich the Thetotkos revealed to her:

"May you be delivered at the second coming.The Panhagia revealed it to me.God will destroy the world, because people do not repent.Pray. pray , pray......

The Panhagia weeps for us day and night :My God do not destroy the world!
I saw her tears, I am on fire...Keep the fasts...

The Panhagia told me that there will come a war......

The Panhagia said advise People to be mor patient...

The Theotokos said to her "take a stick and speak. Talk about short skirts.Talk about apostasy.Preach repetence.Tell the people to hold the fasts,to go to church regulary,not to wear immodest clothing in church.I am angered by these things.

The wrath of God is coming.God will destroy the world when it does not repent! and so on (quotation from the book of the life of eldress Myrtidiotissa)


2000 appeared the Theotokos in an orthodox Church on Nativity called Zisperi in the capitol city of Georgiy in Tiblissi .

She was seen for two weeks in the apse of the Church. The day befor She appeared to many(thousends) people in dream and told them to go to that church because God will send them a sign.She also said that they should go more often to Liturgy and church and if they would not listen God will be angered.

In the book: Life from the graves,the authentic story of the appearance of St. Raphael, St. Nikolaos, and St. Eirini, you also can read that the Theotkos said to people: I will send you many illnesses and wars !Repent If you will not listen to me wait until the third catastrophe!......and others

You can read in John Moschos that the Theotokos cut a pantomime who blasphemied her permanently, with her fingers his arms and feets!
John Moschus.Patr,47

There you also can read that she was very angry about a monk who read texts of nestorios and did not even enter his cell.Patr.46

I know many others, for example from russia where she often appeared and issued threats ,when the people will not return!!

In CHRIST

[Kusanagi]

God bless!!



Here are some one:
Saint -Eldress Myrtidiotissa or Klissoura who died 1974 sometimes spoke about things wich the Thetotkos revealed to her:

"May you be delivered at the second coming.The Panhagia revealed it to me.God will destroy the world, because people do not repent.Pray. pray , pray......

The Panhagia weeps for us day and night :My God do not destroy the world!
I saw her tears, I am on fire...Keep the fasts...

The Panhagia told me that there will come a war......

The Panhagia said advise People to be mor patient...

The Theotokos said to her "take a stick and speak. Talk about short skirts.Talk about apostasy.Preach repetence.Tell the people to hold the fasts,to go to church regulary,not to wear immodest clothing in church.I am angered by these things.

The wrath of God is coming.God will destroy the world when it does not repent! and so on (quotation from the book of the life of eldress Myrtidiotissa)


2000 appeared the Theotokos in an orthodox Church on Nativity called Zisperi in the capitol city of Georgiy in Tiblissi .

She was seen for two weeks in the apse of the Church. The day befor She appeared to many(thousends) people in dream and told them to go to that church because God will send them a sign.She also said that they should go more often to Liturgy and church and if they would not listen God will be angered.

In the book: Life from the graves,the authentic story of the appearance of St. Raphael, St. Nikolaos, and St. Eirini, you also can read that the Theotkos said to people: I will send you many illnesses and wars !Repent If you will not listen to me wait until the third catastrophe!......and others

You can read in John Moschos that the Theotokos cut a pantomime who blasphemied her permanently, with her fingers his arms and feets!
John Moschus.Patr,47

There you also can read that she was very angry about a monk who read texts of nestorios and did not even enter his cell.Patr.46

I know many others, for example from russia where she often appeared and issued threats ,when the people will not return!!

In CHRIST

More like warnings than threats.

The pantomime blashpemed her even more when she appeared thats why she cut him to pieces.

She wasn't angry with the monk that had text of Nestorian just that she didn't want anything to do with him because of it.

[Matthew Panchisin]

Dear Alexander,

I have taken some time and read several of your posts in other threads.

Within the living tradition of the Church, in truth the Theotokas is not known to issue threats. Should you be compelled to portray a different picture for yourself and others to embrace do keep in mind that such an endeavor also is not part of the living tradition of the Church. Inaccurate writings shouldn't be written in the first place.

The concoction of quotes you have selected to assemble a threatening Theotokas is akin to selecting quotes to create a wrathful and punishing God. One can do such things with anything, but it seems prudent not to do such things with the things of God.

Why not just rid yourself of promoting that spirit of the papal and protestant sects that are also comfortable pursuing such endeavors?


In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin

[Herman Blaydoe]

Perhaps we have a semanitcs thing going on here. Can we agree that a WARNING is something different than a THREAT?

Is saying: "If you step in into the street, you may be hit" different from: "if I see you in the road, I will hit you"? In a larger sense I suppose that both can be considered a WARNING, but only one seems to be a THREAT, at least in my point of view.

[Kusanagi]

Threat has a negative tone to it, while warning is more towards positive.

[Florianos]

God bless!!


Perhaps we have a semanitcs thing going on here. Can we agree that a WARNING is something different than a THREAT

Yes, that`s true there is a difference - I see I mad a mistake, but I followed Matthew, who first used this term! I mean warning.

Than the Mother of God in Fatima... also issued not threats but warnings!!(if she truly appeared there- I am not sure!)



Within the living tradition of the Church, in truth the Theotokas is not known to issue threats. Should you be compelled to portray a different picture for yourself and others to embrace do keep in mind that such an endeavor also is not part of the living tradition of the Church. Inaccurate writings shouldn't be written in the first place.

The concoction of quotes you have selected to assemble a threatening Theotokas is akin to selecting quotes to create a wrathful and punishing God. One can do such things with anything, but it seems prudent not to do such things with the things of God.

Why not just rid yourself of promoting that spirit of the papal and protestant sects that are also comfortable pursuing such endeavors?


So we speak about warnings, here I have to say that often, in truth, the Allholy Theotokos issued warnings to her flock in church history, I only mentioned a few.

Are not her many weeping icons today are not also a warning -Lady of Cicero,Lady of Christ of the Hills,Lady of chicago in the albanian church and the russian Lady of tichvin,in kosovo,cypress,greece,austria,rumania and russia were are some thousend?

Of course I selected only quotes with warnings - to show that the Allholy Virgin in orthodoxy issued warnings like other saints-that was the point!
I could for hours select texts to show how merciful and gracious and allloving she is- but that was not the point.

I donot create or promote a papal or protestant spirit, or an wrathfull God.

For me God is allmerciful, allgood, alloving,..but also he is alljust,allfearful,allruling, allfrightning....we should not divid one from the other.
I think in the Holy Scripture and in the writings of the fathers and all the saints you can see the same . He is both.

In CHRIST

[Matthew Panchisin]

Dear Alexander,


Are not her many weeping icons today are not also a warning -Lady of Cicero,Lady of Christ of the Hills,Lady of chicago in the albanian church...

I'm from Chicago as such allow me to address those references from experience.

I have never heard any Orthodox Bishop or Priest suggesting that from the Orthodox Parishes that you have mentioned above, namely the Antiochian Church in Cicero, Saint Georges if my memory serves me correctly, and Saint Nicholas Albanian Orthodox Church. The Lady of Christ of the Hills is not of the Orthodox faith neither is the toast sold on ebay with a special image.

Many Marian fanatics from other non-orthodox traditions used to congregate at Father Koufous's parish Saint Nicholas when the icon wept there, it must have been 25 years ago now. Anyway it was a big problem for Father Koufous and his bishop. Father Koufous was always very merciful towards them as he saw them as confused. I was impressed when I saw and heard him trying to help them. The homilies that he and his bishop gave as well as other Orthodox clerics never suggested that a warning or threat was being conveyed, quite the contrary. I never heard of any warnings being mentioned at the Antiochian Church either. Although I will say that would not suprise me too much there if that had been so because of the amount of recent converts in that community then that may have not gotten rid of some baggage. Nevertheless I suspect the Parish Priest of middle eastern heritage then would have kept such things in check to the best of his abilities.



In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin

[Father David Moser]

Are not her many weeping icons today are not also a warning -Lady of Cicero,Lady of Christ of the Hills,...

Alexander,

I suggest that you exercise more caution in accepting the reports of miraculous icons. The "miraculous" icon of the Mother of God at Christ of the Hills was recently revealed to have been a fraud. The former Father Benedict (who is now deposed and imprisoned for criminal immorality) admitted to having faked the myrrh-streaming icon of "Christ of the Hills" monastery.

Fr David Moser

[Kusanagi]

In response to Paul here is why I do not think that the apparitions of the Mother of God are real until they are tested in the correct way rather than jumping in and believing you were visited by the real being.

Here are some examples I can think of from the top of my head how Catholics and Orthodox conduct things.

Joan of Arc heard voices and believed the saints were really talking to her and put her trust in them.

Francis of Assisi saw God the Father and believed it was really Him, yet it didn’t occur to him why God the Son didn’t appear to him.

The Orthodox examples are:

St Anthony the Great can feel when a demon disguised comes to him he feels at peace when it is really a visitor from Heaven.

St Nicetas of the Kiev caves wanted to become a hermit before he was ready due to youth and youth has enthusiasm. He disobeyed his elder St Nikon who warned him he would be easily deceived. So he went anyway and locked himself in a cave and a demon told him invisibly that he was the Christ and that he was not worthy to behold him so he sent a demon disguised as an angel and instructed him not to pray as he would pray for him and to just read books especially the OT. He became an expert in the OT but not the NT and with the demon’s help he was seen as a prophet. When the other Holy Fathers of the Kiev caves noticed he was OT bias they knew he was being tempted by the devil. At that time out of 150 monks 30 of them were victorious against the demons and they prayed so the demon would leave him. When it did it turned out he had no clue about the OT let alone read.

Another St Isaac the Fool for Christ from the Kiev Caves monastery locked himself up as a hermit at the beginning of his monastic life. A demon disguised as Christ appeared to him and St Isaac didn’t protect himself and was deceived so badly that the demons exhausted him with dancing left him for dead. When St Anthony visited his cave he knocked but got no answer and thought he was dead. When the cave was open they realised he was barely alive and immediately knew this was because of demonic temptation. It was so bad that St Isaac couldn’t speak for 2 years and couldn’t feed himself for one and had to be dragged to church.
When he recovered he became a fool for Christ and succeeded to defeat the devil.

St Theodore of the Kiev caves found a horde of money in his cave he was doing his ascetic practices and he asked his spiritual father St Basil what to do and he instructed him to get rid of it and to never think of it again. His elder left to do some business and doing this period a demon disguised as his elder visited him and instructed him to take the money buy some land, build a house and retire. He hesitated and the demon kept coming and told him to hurry up and do what he was told to do. So thinking he was doing an obedience he decided to leave but without him realising it his REAL elder came and thought to drop by and see him and notice he was about to leave and questioned him about where he was going and St Theodore told him HE told him to leave with the money but the Elder said he just came back from his errands and couldn’t have told him and believed it was a demonic temptation but his pupil was distressed and complained HE instructed him and now he is instructing the opposite and in the end the Elder brought with him respectable monks that could testify on his behalf that he just got back to his monastery. St Theodore was convinced and was instructed by the Elder to never let anyone come into his cave unless they say the Jesus prayer.

A desert father instructed his pupil once after he was tempted by the demon in a similar way that unless the person wanting to come in say ‘Glory to the Father and the Son and to the Holy Spirit both now and forever unto the ages of ages’, they are forbidden to come in. A disguised demon did visit him and when he was told to repeat ‘Glory to the Father and the Son and to the Holy Spirit both now and forever unto the ages of ages’ and wait for the Amen, all the demon could say was ‘both now and forever unto the ages of ages’. So he knew immediately it was a demon.
St Simeon the Stylite was tempted once by a fiery chariot to take him to Heaven he was about to get in but he crossed himself and the chariot disappeared.

Many desert fathers were tempted by demons disguised in various forms to make them leave their place of struggle, such as friends, soldiers, a person in dire need, angels, Christ etc etc.

For example ‘Christ’ visited one monk but the monk asked him what did he want and the ‘Christ’ said to say what a good job and was praising him and the monk replied I am not worthy of seeing you and the demon disappeared.

St Peter of Mt Athos was in a cave and a demon disguised as an angel told him to leave but he said unless the Mother of God herself tells me to leave I will not leave as She told me to come here and only She can tell me to leave, and the angel vanished.

In the life of St Cyprian and Justina, Cyprian used the demons in various guises to tempt St Justina but she prepared for it with fasting and prayer and they were all vanquished. The man who lusted after Justina saw a demon disguised as Justina and when he mentioned her name the demon vanished.

Now you give me examples of catholics and their method of discerning or fighting these sort of demonic temptations but from what I read they don’t.

[Florianos]

God bless!!

It is a worldwide orthodox phenomenon, that in the last years many icons began to weep!! The most here listed are official approved.

+ weeping icon of the Theotokos, Albanian Orthodox Church, Chicago,

+ weeping icon of Christ the Pantokrator in USA

+ someone I know from Chicago told me that an icon appeared on a window and is weeping (but I do not know )

+ the weeping icon of our Lady of Cicero ,Antiochian Orthodox, Chicago
http://www.chicagosynergy.org/saintsofchicago.html (http://www.chicagosynergy.org/saintsofchicago.html)


+ weeping icon of St. Anna , Lady all who sorrows church, Philadelphia(rocor)
http://www.churchofourlady.org/ (http://www.churchofourlady.org/)


+ weeping icon of St. Irene , New York ,greek orthodox( I have been told tha this icon wept intensly on the day the war started in Iraq)
http://www.stirene.org/StIreneChrysovalantou/StIreneChrysovalantou_icon.htm (http://www.stirene.org/StIreneChrysovalantou/StIreneChrysovalantou_icon.htm)



She is also weeping in Texas, Toronto, Michigan.
http://www.centralflghosts.homestead.com/weepingicons.html (http://www.centralflghosts.homestead.com/weepingicons.html)

http://www.mcn.org/1/Miracles/toronto.html (http://www.mcn.org/1/Miracles/toronto.html)

http://www.visionsofjesuschrist.com/weeping86.htm (http://www.visionsofjesuschrist.com/weeping86.htm)

in Europe:

+ in Austria-Salzburg began an icon of the Mother of God to weep( greek orthodox)
www.mutter-gottes-hilfe.eu (http://www.mutter-gottes-hilfe.eu)

+ in Copenhagen the Jerusalemskaja began to weep at great lent(all approved by the bishop)
http://www.synod.com/english/pages/firsttier/iconsplaces.html (http://www.synod.com/english/pages/firsttier/iconsplaces.html)



+ in Kosovo in Lipljan the Mother of God began to weep 2004
http://www.kosovo.net/news/archive/2004/April_12/4.html

in Romania:

+ the icon of the Mother of God is weeping in Nicula
http://www.serfes.org/orthodox/weepingicon.htm (http://www.serfes.org/orthodox/weepingicon.htm)


+ the weeping icon of Musetesti
http://www.visionsofjesuschrist.com/weeping77.htm (http://www.visionsofjesuschrist.com/weeping77.htm)


in cypress: I know 5 icons began to weep (the press in cypress wrote many articles)

+ the Panhagia Paranythia greek orthodox monastery Eliakon near Kykko even the Christchild is weeping
http://http://www.serfes.org/spiritual/january2001.htm (http://http:/www.serfes.org/spiritual/january2001.htm)

+ there is another icon wich began to weep in Limassol

In Greece:

+ tears and blood weeping icon fresco in the St. Nicholas monastery on Andros the Mother of God was weeping
on the day of the Tschernobyl catastrophe and her eyes darkened, and she wept intensly blood 11 September 2001
there are some others

in the Holy Land:

+ the bleeding icon of Christ in 2001 on the eve of Pascha
http://www.holyfire.org/eng/doc_ThirdSign.htm (http://www.holyfire.org/eng/doc_ThirdSign.htm)


+ blood weeping icon of Christ in Bethlehem Nativity church (also officially approved)
http://dejnarde.ms11.net//bethl.htm (http://dejnarde.ms11.net/bethl.htm)


+ weeping icon of the Mother of God in Ramallah
http://www.visionsofjesuschrist.com/weeping24.htm (http://www.visionsofjesuschrist.com/weeping24.htm)


+ some other icons weeping ,throughout the Holy Land
http://www.spiritdaily.org/Sign_Wonders/pantocratoricon.htm (http://www.spiritdaily.org/Sign_Wonders/pantocratoricon.htm)



+ the weeping cross of Christ in Bethlehem ( also approved by the bishop)
http://www.visionsofjesuschrist.com/weeping418.htm (http://www.visionsofjesuschrist.com/weeping418.htm)


in Russia:

+ the bleeding icon of Christ in Moscow
http://http://www.st-nikolas.orthodo...ons/index.html (http://http:/www.st-nikolas.orthodo...ons/index.html)

+ the bleeding icon of the Kanzanskaja in Moscow
http://www.blagoslovenie.ru/client/chudesa/4.htm (http://www.blagoslovenie.ru/client/chudesa/4.htm)


+ in Belarussia the whole church began to weep, all icons crosses..
http://http://www.hramvsr.by/icon-miro.php (http://http:/www.hramvsr.by/icon-miro.php)


http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=1352 (http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=1352)

These are all officially approved!! And please notice that I mentioned only few.

That the icon in the Christ of the hills monastery was a fake I didnot know but this is not a proof against all the others.


It is not my personal opinion that weeping icons are sign of sadness and that Christ and the saints are warning us !
This is the official explanation of the russian orthodox church. http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/death/miracle_russia.aspx (http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/death/miracle_russia.aspx)

Myrrh -streaming icons like that of St. Nicholas and the Iveron Mother of God are signs of Gods mercy, but weeping and especially bleeding icons are signs of sadness.
I think it is not very nice to put some toast promotions of a burger seller and real orthodox miracles of Christ and our Theotokos and all our saints in the same box!

I saw on your profile that you have the web side of the rocor, on this side is a photo of the weeping Jerusalemskaja and an explanation that it is a sign of sadness.


In CHRIST

[Effie Ganatsios]

Alexander, I am not disputing any of the above, but we should be very cautious when dealing with such phenomena.

I know that about 20 years ago, an icon of the Theotokos started "weeping" in the St. George church here in my city. People flocked to this church for 2-3 days believing that it was a miracle. Then, suddenly the Metropolitan issued a statement saying that the whole matter was going to be "investigated" and the icon was taken away. As far as I know nothing more was heard about it. What happened? We still don't know but we suspect certain things.

With these phenomena I believe we need to wait until scientific tests are carried out. These tests tell us whether natural sources are behind the "weeping" or whether a "human hand" has caused them. If neither of these two reasons are found, then we can hope that it is indeed a miracle.

Effie

[Effie Ganatsios]

"Iveron Mother of God "

This icon is indeed a miracle working icon. My cousin is a monk at this monastery and he has sent me a beautiful icon and a book about the monastery and this icon. It is the icon I have placed next to my front door and the one I have mentioned in a previous post.

There have been many recorded miracles associated with this icon and the monks and visitors have seen the oil lamp that hangs in front of it swaying just before certain events. The whole matter has been scientifically examined and there is no explanation for why this happens i.e. geographic faults under the monastery or whatever, or abnormalities in the building itself. Only the oil lamp in front of the icon sways, all the other hanging oil lamps in the church are still, so it is something of a mystery.

Effie

[Kusanagi]

one father i read said it is better to be able to see your sins than miracles.

[Kusanagi]

I believe the copy of the Iveron icon with the swaying lampada has moved to England. The real one i heard is kept behind a chained door and it has to be moved back each day back to its original place as it keeps moving.

[Florianos]

God bless!!


Alexander, I am not disputing any of the above, but we should be very cautious when dealing with such phenomen.

With these phenomena I believe we need to wait until scientific tests are carried out. These tests tell us whether natural sources are behind the "weeping" or whether a "human hand" has caused them. If neither of these two reasons are found, then we can hope that it is indeed a miracle.


You are right Effie, we should be cautious! I do not know the exact situation in the states but in Russia there is a commission of the patriarchate with many scientists from different sciences, like biologists, chemists, physicists and others and every miracle is with time examined! The head of this commission is the well known Pavel Florenski.


In Russia there are several thousand crying icons (http://english.pravda.ru/filing/icons/): images of saints (http://english.pravda.ru/filing/saints/) are crying profusely in Moscow, St. Petersburg, Sarov, Ekaterinburg, Tyumen, Novosibirsk and on Solovki.
I want to remark straight away,” academic Pavel Florenskiy, head of a special commission supported by the Moscow Patriarchy studying miracles in churches, told an ACC correspondent, “the phenomenon of icons crying is known us to all the way back to Ancient Greek manuscripts. However for a long time there was no agreement between science and religion. Many scientists viewed such miracles (http://english.pravda.ru/filing/miracles/) as a fabrication or a common forgery. But nowadays the deep-rooted antagonism is changing thanks to constructive dialogue

Please read the complete text:
http://english.pravda.ru/society/anomal/79473-0/ (http://english.pravda.ru/society/anomal/79473-0/)


The Russian Orthodox Church set up a commission in 1999 for the description of divine miracles occurring in the Russian Orthodox Church. The chairman of the commission is Pavel Florensky, a grandson of the famous theologian Pavel Florensky. Mr. Florensky says that plain scientific inquisitiveness is a driving force of the commission. Aside from physicists Alexander Moskovsky and Sergei Sashinsky, biologist Alexander Agadzhanyan and philologist Tatyana Shutova also partake in the work of the commission.
First off, there is obvious confusion regarding the terminology, point out the members of the commission. Myrrh is a very precious incense cooked personally by Patriarch at a special service. A person is anointed with myrrh once in a lifetime during his or her baptism. It is considered a good sign when an icon exudes myrrh. On the contrary, tears flowing down an icon is an omen signaling that ordeals and troubles are on their way.

Full text:
http://english.pravda.ru/science/tech/9016-1/ (http://english.pravda.ru/science/tech/9016-1/)

And also the bleeding icon of the Saviour in Moscow was examined:
The red substance is real human blood that appears from it self !!
http://www.st-nikolas.orthodoxy.ru/english/ikons/ (http://www.st-nikolas.orthodoxy.ru/english/ikons/)

And also the church in Belorussia I think was examined by a commission! In this church everything began to weep the icons, frescos, crosses, the walls, prosphoras were bleeding and blood appeared by itself in the chalice!!
http://www.hramvsr.by/icon-miro.php (http://www.hramvsr.by/icon-miro.php)


I have been told that in Serbia also many icons began to cry and bleed °
http://manastir-lepavina.org/novosti/index.php/galerija/category/C22 (http://manastir-lepavina.org/novosti/index.php/galerija/category/C22)

There is also a film you can watch!

About the miracles in Russia, I only mentioned a few, you can watch video documentations of the russian orthodox Tele channel!
http://www.tvspas.ru/katalog/?ID=3685 (http://www.tvspas.ru/katalog/?ID=3685)

You will also see the commission and their work!!

I think it is hard for our rational and sceptic view to believe in this miracles!

In CHRIST

[Effie Ganatsios]

Alexander, it is hard to put aside our scepticism and believe when something happens that is not according to the laws of nature. But, I always tell myself that even though some scientists might think of themselves as gods (as some doctors do), we have a long, long way to go before we even begin to understand the laws of nature.

Christ was crucified and was resurrected. Do we need any other example to prove that the laws of nature can be put aside sometimes.

The way the world works, the way our bodies work, is still a mystery and even though every couple of years another tiny piece of information is added to our store of scientific information, we know nothing yet. The frightening part of the whole thing is that scientists are experimenting with things they know only a little about.

We are told that faith has the power to move mountains, just as it has the power to heal sick people when they are sincere and repentent in front of icons of our Theotokos.

[Effie Ganatsios]

Παναγια πορταιτισσα

Panayia (Saint above all saints) Portaitissa

The monks of Iveron were dazzled one day by a pillar of fire near the shore. At the base of this pillar of fire they saw an icon. They tried to wade in and pick it up but each time they tried to approach the icon, it moved further out to sea.

The monk Gabriel from the Iveron monastery, who was at that time living by himself in a cave at the top of the mountain, was at last summoned by the Theotokos and he waded into the sea and rescued the icon. The icon, in spite of its long journey in the sea had a wonderful aroma, one it still has to this day. The monks carried it to their monastery and placed it in the church nave but to their surprise they found it next to the church door the next morning. This happened three consecutive nights. St. Gabriel had another vision of the Theotokos and She said to him : I did not come here to be protected by you but I came to protect the monastery. That is why even today this icon is next to the entrance of the monastery in a temple that was built especially for it . That is why it is called Portaitissa (feminine version of door “porta” and tissa (fem.) It protects not just the monastery of Iveron but all of Mt. Athos (Aghios Oros – Holy Mountain).

The above is a brief and free translation of the first page of the beautiful book my cousin sent me.

This icon cannot be classed as one of the “beautiful “ icons. The face of the Theotokos is very dark, somewhat harsh and it is full of sadness. When I was first given my copy of the icon I was foolish enough to not like it, but the more I looked into Her face and the more I saw just how sad she was, the more I grew to love it. Her sadness is what appeals to me and She seems so real, not like a painting at all.

I posted a copy of the icon on my profile.

Effie