Use of prayer books

[John E.]

Christ is Risen!! Indeed He is Risen!! Hello all. I am new to this site and have never posted before. I hope this works. I am a convert to the Orthodox church and most of my friends and family are Protestant. I have a couple of very close friends who are very skeptical of Orthodoxy and are full of good questions. One question was asked of me the other day about prayer books. The question was why do we need to use prayer books and the prayers of others(saints,etc) rather than just talking to God using our own words. I attempted to answer the question as best I could, but don't think the answer was sufficient. The response was that using prayer books and the like seems to fake and not sincere. There was also a comment about the repetition of prayers used throughout the Liturgy. Matthew 6:7 was quoted to me, I am assuming as an accusation that we Orthodox are like the "heathens" using vain repetitions. These friends of mine come from an Evangelical background and have never even heard of Orthodoxy prior to my conversion. I have tried to answer these questions as best I could, but feel my knowledge is still very limited as I am still learning myself about the faith. Would anyone like to maybe respond to this question and mayabe elaborate on this scripture? It may help me to help them understand better. Thank you in advance.

B.T.E.

[Paul Cowan]

Welcome Brian:
Before many replies to your questions come, please search the archives to see these answers. Most of your questions for your protestant friends are answered somewhere on Monachos.

There are a high number of converts on this site. We ALL have had the same questions and you will be surprised of the many and varied answers here.

But if you don't find what you are looking for. Ask away.


Matthew 6:7 was quoted to me, I am assuming as an accusation that we Orthodox are like the "heathens" using vain repetitions.

As for this question...What do they call vain repetition? Lord Have Mercy? How many on the rode Christ traveled cried this out to him? If it was good enough for them, why not us? No where in Orthodoxy will you find anything not inspired by Christ himself. Christ gave us the first "real" prayer. Prayers by the Holy Fathers are just similar structured prayers. Why should I dare to try to compose a prayer when men holier than I have for hundreds of years? They obviously did it right or they would not now be saints.

So what is vain repetition? I have heard their meal prayers. They are the same every time to the point I laugh when I hear them. "Lord bless this food to the nourishment of our bodies and the hands that prepared it." No matter what else in in the prayer, that has to be in there everytime. I just get tickled when I hear it.

Paul

[Olga]

Welcome Brian:
.... Christ gave us the first "real" prayer. Paul

Good post, Paul, but may I make a slight correction (crotchety old woman that I am!) to the above selection: Christ indeed gave us the Lord's Prayer, but one can also regard the Book of Psalms as a prayer omnibus for all occasions and situations in life. It is no accident that the saints and fathers who wrote prayers (and continue to do so) draw so heavily from the psalter.

[John Charmley]

The question was why do we need to use prayer books and the prayers of others(saints,etc) rather than just talking to God using our own words. I attempted to answer the question as best I could, but don't think the answer was sufficient. The response was that using prayer books and the like seems to fake and not sincere.

Dear Brian,

Welcome here! As Paul indicates, even Evangelical Protestants tend to find themselves using a similar set of words when they pray, rather then freshly minting everything that is said, so the real dichotomy is between two different types of set prayers rather than set prayers and spontaneity. The difference for us is that we are using the prayers used by our forefathers and their forefathers back to the time of the Apostles and to the One who gave them their commission; the Evangelicals are using something they made up.

We are at one with those in repose and those all over the world, and our prayers emphasise that we are part of the body of Christ, part of the communion of Saints, we are a catholic community. Our prayers are hallowed by the Saints, and they express how generations of Christians have worshipped the Lord. As a former Anglican from the UK, I would see the difference as between a great Church organ on which skilled organists make great music to honour God, on one side, and on the other an electronic keyboard. Which is not to say that the keyboard cannot also praise the Lord - but why not give Him honour in a way befitting the love we feel for Him?

I suspect the differences stem from very different ideas of what we do when we worship. Evangelicals have an emphasis upon a 'personal' encounter and seem to place a premium on emotionalism; that is not what Orthodoxy tends to do; which is not to say that we do not have a personal encounter with Him, but it is through the Sacraments and the Church and our fellow Christians - hence the importance to us of the Liturgy and our prayers.

I am sure those with more experience than myself (i.e. just about everyone here) can give fuller and better answers, and correct me where I have erred, but this seems to me at least part of an answer to your friends.

In Christ,

John

[Antony Solomon]

I used to be a Baptist minister, and we did everything extempore. but with the best will in the world, you can't pray 3 15-20 minute prayers each week without repeating yourself, and finding well worn paths, be it useful phrases, or scripture verses. Habit, repetition, etc are what we are best at. Despite being in one of the most sectarian churches one could be in (calvinist baptists) yet one couldn't change the way things were done - the lit-uh-gee - without fear of a deacons revolt! Nor is it suggested that all our prayers should be written prayers. There is room for intercession.

[Mary]

The question was why do we need to use prayer books and the prayers of others(saints,etc) rather than just talking to God using our own words. I attempted to answer the question as best I could, but don't think the answer was sufficient. The response was that using prayer books and the like seems to fake and not sincere. There was also a comment about the repetition of prayers used throughout the Liturgy. Matthew 6:7 was quoted to me, I am assuming as an accusation that we Orthodox are like the "heathens" using vain repetitions.
B.T.E.

Gosh, how predictable! Those were my exact questions when our friend became orthodox and we saw his collection of 'pre-prayed-prayers'. He must've had the same question himself, for he had a good answer. He asked us if the songs we sing in church are any less worshipful because someone else wrote them and sang them first. And if we have a favorite chorus, we sing it over and over and over. Sound like 'vain' repetition? (It was 'vain', if it wasnt' a song I liked...)

He also told us - prayer is like exercise. When you first begin to exercise, you don't create your own routine, you follow directions and you do exactly as your instructor does. Once you've got the basic routine down, you can add your own favorites and make up your own routine - but you'll still be repeating yourself. BTW - 'personal' prayers aren't 'outlawed', just because we have prayer books.

About sincerety - how many times have I avoided praying, just because I couldn't find the sincerety in my heart! And yet, those times, when my heart is dry, are the times that I need to pray the most. Can't beat the prayers of the saints for that!

There is useful repetition and there's Vain repetition. We just have to learn to distinguish between the two. You can't walk unless you repeatedly put one leg in front of the other. You can't get good at something unless you repeatedly practice. Even in daily life, you accomplish more if you have a routine and do the same things, in the same order.

I read this in the Way of the Ascetics:
It took Noah a hundred years to build his Ark; log upon log he dragged to the construcion. Do as he did; drag log upon log to your construction, patiently, in silence, day after day, and do not inquire about your surroundings. (pg 69)
That was such a great picture! Every day for a hundred years, Noah did the same thing over and over and over! All his sons were born after he began building the Ark - so imagine what their lives where like - all that Dad ever did was chop wood, drag it to the ark, make it fit, and put it in place. What if Noah had stopped after 991/2 years, because he got bored of doing the same thing over and over?

Ok - now that I'm convicted, I'm off to pick up my routine where I left off. Have a blessed weekend.

In Christ,
Mary.

[Anthony]

The priest who received me pointed out that when the disciples asked Christ to teach them to pray, he didn't talk about advanced states of prayer, he said "say this". In the same way, we pray with the Church, and allow ourselves to be taught. That may not be the end of the story about prayer, but it is a good beginning.

[Nina]

The priest who received me pointed out that when the disciples asked Christ to teach them to pray, he didn't talk about advanced states of prayer, he said "say this". In the same way, we pray with the Church, and allow ourselves to be taught. That may not be the end of the story about prayer, but it is a good beginning.

This is beautiful! Thank you!

[Father David Moser]

when the disciples asked Christ to teach them to pray, he didn't talk about advanced states of prayer, he said "say this". In the same way, we pray with the Church, and allow ourselves to be taught.

We do not know how to pray as we ought (Rom 8:26). And yet prayer is so important that we are instructed to pray without ceasing (1Thess 5:17). Would our benevolent and merciful God leave us "in the dark" about praying when it is so important. No, He teaches us to pray. How does He teach us? How does God do anything in this world? Through His Body, that is the Church, of course. (do we not see this from our own selves. Our spirit does nothing in this world except it is accomplished through the body. We may have the best of intent and desire, but unless that intent or desire is accomplished by the body, it has no effect on the world. So also our Lord Jesus Christ, acts in the world with His Body).

How then does the Church teach us to pray? As others indicated already, we are taught through example. The "Our Father", the Psalter, etc. When we learn anything, we learn first through imitation, then with repetition and practice, we begin to master the skill. Once we begin to learn the task, then we invest our own fervent feelings and desires into it and it becomes an avenue of expression for the soul. Prayer is no different, it is a skill that we master. We start with examples - then we repeat and practice those examples until we learn from them the skill. This does not mean just to memorize the words - that is only a very basic and first step - but also to learn the state of the soul that the words evoke. The "textbook" or this process, the "primer of prayer" is the prayerbook. This is how we learn to pray.

At this point I need to refer you to the instruction by St Theophan the Recluse on how to pray (http://www.monachos.net/library/Theophan_the_Recluse%2C_Four_Homilies_on_Prayer) This is basic stuff, just what we beginners need.

As for our corporate prayer (that is the liturgy and other services of the Church) - this is something that we do together, as a body, in concert. How could we offer our prayer with one voice, one mind, one heart unless there is a "script" or a "score" so that we all pray together at the same time, in unison. How would it be if you went to a symphony concert and all that you heard was each player just doodling around on his instrument as his own individual whimsey moved him. Chaos, cacophony, noise. In order for the symphony to create the beautiful music you hoped to hear, there must be a unified score that all the musicians must follow - submitting their own likes and dislikes, their own desires, their own proclivities to the score, following the lead of the conductor - who also follows the score. These are the services of the Church. We all gather together to offer a symphony of prayer, submitting our own individual wills to the "score" (the typicon and other texts of the service) under the direction of the "conductor" (clergy, priest and deacon) so that together we might offer a single prayer with one voice.

Finally "vain repetition" Note that this verse does not say anything about repetition in prayer - only vain repetition. There is absolutely no scriptural (or traditional prohibition) on repeated prayer - only the warning that our prayer not be "vain". You can find much in the fathers about vain prayer. I can't go into it exhaustively here, so I'll only mention that if you look, you will find a lot of comments about "prayer of the lips", "prayer of the mind" and "prayer of the heart". Only prayer of the heart is true prayer, and yet most of us rarely ascend even to prayer of the mind.

I do hope that you will spend time working to master the art of prayer for this is possibly the most important of all the activities of our spiritual life.

Fr David Moser

[Amy]

Hi Brian. I cannot add much to the beautiful and insightful responses above. I just wanted to welcome you and say that I am a recent convert too, with the same questions about prayer coming from my Protestant friends.

My prayer book, The Hours of Prayer, was given to me as a gift from my pastor, Fr. Scott. It has become one of my treasures because for the first time, I am establishing a rhythm to my prayer life...prayers for arising from sleep, prayers for midday, complines at night. It is this rhythm of prayer that I find so conducive to spiritual growth and obedience. I was never able to establish such a balance of prayer in my Protestant days.

Another point is one I can share from a book I'm reading: Thirsting for God in a Land of Shallow Wells by Matthew Gallatin.

He writes:

The third flaw in spontaneous prayer is also a serious one. You see, when my method of prayer is just to open my heart and express myself, my prayers often end up being just exactly that -- expressions of self. Instead of being focused on God, I'm focused on myself- ....After all, my prayers are my own words. In them, I declare my views, my feelings, my wants, my needs, my desires.

Ancient prayers of our Church Fathers call to mind a different frame of reference: God's view of me. When I read their prayers, I am reminded of my place as a sinner, saved only by the mercy of God. Rather than give God a list of my wants in spontaneous prayer (please change my brother's heart toward me), I am praying God will open my eyes to MY sins and shortcomings and save me from them...

Change me, O Lord and have mercy!

[David James]

Olga makes an excellent point, especially if one is familiar with St. Athanasius of Alexandria's "Letter to Marcellinus," which one can find online easily with google. In this letter, among other things, St. Athanasius describes in detail which Psalm is helpful to us in virtually any situation. If you combine this with the Prayer Rule of St. Pachomius (see below), then you have a prayer book for all occasions, as long as you access to (or have memorized) the Book of Psalms.

The following is published in the back of most Slavonic psalters:



From the Fathers concerning the Cell Rule, and about the Prayer which the Angel of the Lord gave to Pachomius the Great.



A brother asked an elder, saying, I pray thee, Father, tell me. How should I spend my time in the cell? And the elder an*swered, I keep my own rule in this way: at night, I sleep four hours, and for four hours I stand in psalmody, and I work four hours; and during the day, again, I work until the sixth hour, and from the sixth I read, even until the ninth, and from the ninth, I cook my food, and that’s how I do in the cell. Again the brother asked, But how ma*ny prayers should I say? And answering, the elder said, I do according to the revelation of the Angel, which he gave in writing to St. Pacho*mius. And you can do likewise. And the brother said, What is the An*gel’s revelation, Father? And the elder said, It is written in the Angel’s written revelation, how the monks which were under the authority of St. Pachomius might do 12 prayers during the day, and 12 at night, and at the ninth hour three prayers, and to sing a psalm before each prayer [emphasis added - DJ]. And he said this also, I started slowly, for it is good to keep the rule, even in part, and no one will be sorry. Perfection doesn’t need regulations, as thou hast heard from him who said, Pray without ceasing.


The rule which the Angel of the Lord gave to Pachomius the Great.

Begin with the Trisagion. After the Our Father: Lord, have mercy [12]. Glory, Both now: O come, let us worship, thrice. Psalm L, Have mercy upon me, O God; I believe in one God; one hundred prayers, O Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy upon me, a sinner. And then, It is truly meet, and the Dismissal. And this is one prayer. It is commanded to perform twelve of these in the day, and twelve at night.




Good post, Paul, but may I make a slight correction (crotchety old woman that I am!) to the above selection: Christ indeed gave us the Lord's Prayer, but one can also regard the Book of Psalms as a prayer omnibus for all occasions and situations in life. It is no accident that the saints and fathers who wrote prayers (and continue to do so) draw so heavily from the psalter.

[Rick]

Hi,

For several months I've been doing my morning and evening prayers with a basic print out I got from the website a nearby parish. Just recently, however, I purchased the ROCOR Jordansville Prayer Book and noticed that it has many more prayers. I've been using for two weeks rather consistently. I want to establish the discipline of regular, liturgical prayer but yet sometimes I find the amount of prayers overwhelming, especially after arriving home pretty late (like at 2AM).

I feel like it would be wrong to just "pick and choose" the prayers, but really do the Orthodox do all those prayers? The print out seemed more manageable, but yet there is something more "ascetic" about pushing yourself to meaningfully pray all of those prayers (in the Jordansville prayer book).

How do I properly use the Jordansville prayer book. I was hoping it would have a section in it explaining that but sadly it does not.

Thank you. I would appreciate any help on this.

[Ryan]

Hey Rick, welcome to the forum. Yes, it seems to me that we are supposed to say all of those prayers, if we have time- that seems to be what the instructions in italics suggest. The book comes from a culture far more steeped in piety and asceticism than ours. I think the bare minimum (from what I have read and heard in other places) would be saying the Trisagion, the Creed, and the Lord's Prayer, though sometimes I can't manage even that. On the other hand, if you are in communication with a priest or a spiritual father, he may be able to give some good advice on a basic daily prayer rule for yourself.

[Father David Moser]

Just recently, however, I purchased the ROCOR Jordansville Prayer Book and noticed that it has many more prayers. I've been using for two weeks rather consistently. I want to establish the discipline of regular, liturgical prayer but yet sometimes I find the amount of prayers overwhelming, especially after arriving home pretty late (like at 2AM).

First - it's "Jordanville" (no "s")

Second, and more importantly. It is best simply to use the prayer rule for morning and evening prayer just as they are set out. It's really not that long - about 20 min. for each rule. It is best not to wait until right before your retire to say your evening prayers - better to say the major part of the rule in the early evening, say right after dinner, and then the final segment later before you retire.

The prayer book is not really "liturgical prayer" and if you want to add that element, then it's best to combine the evening prayers with small compline and the morning prayers with the midnight service (nocturne) as they are in the unabridged horologion (that's how they do it in the monastery). Compline and Nocturne are part of the normal liturgical cycle of services and they fit very nicely into a prayer rule.

Fr David Moser

[Rick]

Thank you Fr David Moser and Ryan for your helpful input.

Sorry for misspelling the word.

It takes me longer than 20 mins. to do each rule. Sometimes up to 40 mins. or more. Maybe over time I'll improve, once I learn how to meditate on each rule quicker.

I enjoy praying. I can't be noticed too much though. I have to be sneaky, since my parents aren't okay with stuff like this, especially with the two little icons I was given as a gift which I hide in my closet. I usually only pray when my parents go to work and when they doze off to sleep.

I have one other question: Should I "sing" my prayers like at services, or do the Orthodox just read out loud their prayers?