Grape juice for Eucharist?

[Amy]

I have searched through the old threads and read with interest about the history of using leavened bread. In a recent conversation with non-Orthodox christians, the question has been asked about using grape juice instead of wine for communion.

I learned here at Monachos that with the yeast being the 'living organisms' within the elements of bread and wine, it represents Christ's Resurrection and the life within the sacrament.

And so, what does one say to a non-Orthodox christian who wants to know if grape juice is ok to use? What would you reply? Especially to those who do not view the Lord's Supper as a sacrament, but as a remembrance only?

[Father David Moser]

I'd say that if our Lord used wine, then who are we to change what He did?

Fr David Moser

[Paul Cowan]

oooo, Father David. To say that might just unravel most nonorthodox beliefs in the world. You mean if Jesus did it, we should do it today? That might cause waves and hold people accountable for their actions. A veritable (sp) hornests nest awaits.

sarcastically,
Paul

[Herman Blaydoe]

Not to be facetious, but, why not orange juice, or Kool-Aid (sans the Jonestown additives), or good old plain water?

As Fr. says, we do what Christ did. Wine was used by the Church from the very beginning for the Eucharist. Grape juice did not even become a real option until Mr. Welch came along and invented a way to pasturize grape juice so that it would keep long enough to be used. Of course the Temperance movement was one of the first modern attempts to bend theology and praxis to fit social whims.

For those who do not accept the sacraments, they can drink whatever they want, it truely does not matter, because it is NOT the Body and Blood of Christ anyway, it is not the Communion of the Church. They are simply drinking grape juice and eating bread, even in their own minds. At least it is a physically healthy thing, rich in antioxidants and all that.

[Amy]

Thank you for the replies.


Not to be facetious, but, why not orange juice, or Kool-Aid (sans the Jonestown additives), or good old plain water?

Exactly- and that is where the conversation usually goes, which also leads to "Can we receive communion on our own?" Some believe it really doesn't matter if we use Kool-Aid or water, as long as the intent of the heart is pure.

It is difficult for me to discuss it with non-Orthodox without becoming frustrating and sarcastic....yet, I truy want to give a peaceful answer to them, without inflaming their passions.

[Father David Moser]

I'm in a bit of a hurry this morning so I can't look up the reference, however, I believe that this question is addressed by Nicholas Cabsilas in his commentary on the Divine Liturgy. He says that we use bread and wine because these are not "natural" things but the works of man. Only man takes wheat, grinds it to flour mixes it with yeast and water, and bakes it into bread. Only man takes grapes, crushes them and carefully ferments them into wine. This does not occur in nature, nor do the animals do this - these are unique works of the hands of men. In the eucharist we offer bread and wine because we offer the best of our works to Christ - and yet even our best is insufficient but He receives our offerings and completes them, making them perfect. Sorry I don't have the exact reference, but this is from memory the basic line of thought in Cabasilas.

Fr David Moser

[Father Serafim]

The understanding that man contributes i.e. by growing wheat and making bread and fermenting the grapes was how I was taught as a choirboy in the Anglican church.

I think the grape-juice thing is a temperance issue. Drinking wine is good for you in measure, but I can understand the concerns of alcohol-free Protestants, though I do not agree with their puritanical dietary restrictions.

[Nina]

Exactly- and that is where the conversation usually goes, which also leads to "Can we receive communion on our own?"

You can also take a linguistic approach here. Communion = "an act or instance of sharing" (Merriam-Webster (http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?sourceid=Mozilla-search&va=communion)) How can a person share on his own? The words 'communion' and 'on our own' are incongruous. You can also mention that the fig tree which was cursed by Christ, because it did not have fruit, was by itself. We do not read about some fig trees without fruit. It was a single one.

Also at the moment that Judas cut himself off from the community where he participated, he despaired and committed suicide. We can see a parallel between the two: Judas and the fruitless fig tree. (Maybe I have read this somewhere, but I am not very sure and can't remember; I am sorry).

Again from Merriam-Webster on line: Communion: "from Latin communion-, communio mutual participation, from communis" This is also the root of the word 'community'. As people who live in a community-oriented society, maybe they might respond to such reminder: that Communion and community have the same etymology.

[Amy]

Very good points, Nina; thank you!

Thank you all for your responses, they are very helpful.