Communion with multiple chalices

[Dimitris]

Hallo!

I observed that sometimes more than one Chalice is used for the Communion of the faithful. For example here in the Russian church in my city there are every sunday as much as three or four Chalices used. In the Greek church two Chalices are used on great feast days when many faithful are expected to commune.

I wonder how the preparation and consecration looks like when more than one Chalice is used. Regardless of the number of Chalices used later on for Communion, during the Great Entrance only one Diskos and only one Chalice is presented. Also then only that one Diskos and that one Chalice are laid upon the altar, as far as I could observe it. How will the wine of the other Chalices become the Blood of Christ? Are they somewhere standing on one end of the altar and therefore not being visible to me? Or is the Blood after consecration being transfered to the other Chalices?

Dimitris

[Paul Cowan]

Dear Dimitris,

I can tell you as an alter server what I see, but one of the Fathers will need to dsescribe it better for you.

Before Matins, the priest says the prayers at the proskemedia (sp) table (table of preparation) and pours the wine into the needed Chalices. The bread which is cut and prayers for those to be remembered is put onto the discos and all are covered up.

Before the Great Entrance, one chalice and the diskos with the bread are brought out. The prayers for the coming down of the holy Spirit are said. This is now the true body and blood of Christ.

Here is what you do not see...after the curtains are drawn, the other chalice is brought out and just as in a presanctified Liturgy, a large piece of the body is dippied into the blood of the first chalice and is then placed into the other chalice. This sanctifies the other chalice. After this, the remaining body is broken up into each chalice while prayers are said.

So from one to many the mysteries are distributed to each additional chalice as needed. If Christ can multiply the loaves and fishes for the 5000 and 4000, then He can multiply Himself into the chalices.

Fathers: Please correct as much or all of this I have not interpreted correctly.

Paul

[Father David Moser]

I have never actually seen what Paul describes. Whenever there are multiple chalices, only one is consecrated (and thus only one is carried in the entrance). Usually a large chalice is prepared and brought out and consecrated on the altar table. Then at the time for communion, the additional chalices are brought out (empty) and a special spoon (usually more like a ladle) is used to transfer a portion of the precious Blood from the central chalice to the others. The lamb in such cases is usually very large and as usual in Russian practice, cut into smaller particles. These particles of the most holy Body are then divided between the chalices. Thus only one cup and one lamb are sanctifed and they are then distributed between multiple chalices.

Fr David Moser

[Paul Cowan]

It is very possible standing in the ante-room, I cannot see clearly enough the alter to see the priests filling the second chalice from the first. Though I try to look as best I can. I will ask this Sunday how he does it.

Paul

[Andreas Moran]

What Fr David describes is what my wife says was done at the Memorial Divine Liturgy at Butovo. There was one huge chalice - about one metre high - and many smaller chalices were filled from it, there being more than a thousand people taking Holy Communion.

[Nina]

What Fr David describes is what my wife says was done at the Memorial Divine Liturgy at Butovo. There was one huge chalice - about one metre high - and many smaller chalices were filled from it, there being more than a thousand people taking Holy Communion.

Wow!!! That must be a blessing and a marvelous experience to be part of. It feels so joyful to even imagine it! :)

[Paul Cowan]

That indead must take some time to serve the Euchrist. Imagine how long and the logistics of serving in one of the old cathedrals of 10,000 or more. And confession?

I wonder if there is a limit to the number of parishoners a priest can effectively service? At what point does the archdiocese appoint another priest to a parish? Or at what point is a parish split to either start new parishes or missions?

This might be an interesting thread on the workings of a parish office and the logistics of diocese management? But then I have to work out the patristic significance of the question. Oh well, never mind.

Paul

[Robert Rager]

I have never actually seen what Paul describes. Whenever there are multiple chalices, only one is consecrated (and thus only one is carried in the entrance). Usually a large chalice is prepared and brought out and consecrated on the altar table. Then at the time for communion, the additional chalices are brought out (empty) and a special spoon (usually more like a ladle) is used to transfer a portion of the precious Blood from the central chalice to the others. The lamb in such cases is usually very large and as usual in Russian practice, cut into smaller particles. These particles of the most holy Body are then divided between the chalices. Thus only one cup and one lamb are sanctifed and they are then distributed between multiple chalices.

Fr David Moser

This is what I've seen at my parish, except that I've seen one of the priests literally pour from the consecrated chalice to the others.

[Dimitris]

Hallo Paul!

Could you finally find out something about how the precious Blood is actually distributed to the various Chalices in your parish?

Kind regards,
Dimitris

[Paul Cowan]

Hello Dimitris,

I asked our Deacon who is studying to be a priest on Sunday. (I asked him on Sunday, not he is going to be a priest on Sunday) ;0

He explained we consecrate one chalice during the Liturgy. Previously during the Proskomedia service, the priest has already said prayers before all the chalices on the table. Only one is taken during the Great Entrance though.

When it is time to consecrate the additional chalices, he dips the body into the blood of the first chalice and then puts it into the second. I asked him about what others here said about ladeling out into other chalices or even pouring it onto others.

He said he has seen it poured, but did not think it practicle to ladel saying what would you use? The spoon is too small and time consuming and if you serve with multiple priests in a cathedral for example, how could you possibly fill all the chalices the priests use from the one?

So we do what I said above. All this of course is to what I understood him to say, and not necessarily what he told me. (How is that for a disclaimer?)

Paul

[Dimitris]

Thank you. So it seems there exist three different ways.

Dimitris

[Father David Moser]

He said he has seen it poured, but did not think it practicle to ladel saying what would you use? The spoon is too small and time consuming and if you serve with multiple priests in a cathedral for example, how could you possibly fill all the chalices the priests use from the one?


To answer this question. The spoon with which the Precious Blood is moved from one chalice to the other is not an ordinary communion spoon. Your deacon is correct in saying that it would take too long. The spoon that is used is a special spoon that is very large - as large as a gravy or even soup ladle. The ones I have encountered are at least of 1/4 cup capacity. This ladle/spoon is not then used for the communing of the faithful - how could it, it is too large - but rather smaller spoons of the "normal" size are used.

Also it seems to me that the pratice of "dipping" the consecrated lamb into each of the prepared chalices is consistent with the Greek practice at the presnctified of presuming that by putting the presanctified gifts into the chalice that the formerly unsancitfied wine becomes the Precious Blood by contact with the Gifts. However this is not the presumption of the Russian Church where the wine in the chalice at the presanctified liturgy is not considered to be sanctified of itself, but remains only blessed wine - the presanctified gifts being the only Mysteries present. This is the reason that infants are often not communed at the presanctified liturgy unless they can be given a particle of the presanctified gifts - because just giving them liquid as would be done at the regular liturgy does not give to them the Holy Mysteries, but only blessed wine; and it is also the reason that the priest or deacon who wil consume the chalice at the presanctified liturgy does not partake of the wine at communion since that would "force" him to "break the fast" before consuming the last of the gifts.

Fr David Moser

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

The below is exactly what was done at Christ the Saviour Cathedral in Moscow during the Ascension Liturgy. They used the largest Chalice and Lamb I had ever seen in my life. When I saw the Chalice my first reaction was to wonder if it was physically possible for one proto-deacon to carry it at the Great Entrance- but he certainly did!

In any case I was watching what was done when it came time for partaking of the Most holy Body and Blood of our Lord. The one very large Chalice on the Altar was the only one consecrated. Other smaller chalices were standing on a table in between the Altar area and the area towards the High Place (in Christ the Saviour cathedral these are two very large and distinct areas; very practical to serve in). When it came time for communion the smaller chalices were brought to the Altar. Then as Fr David explains, the Blood was poured with a long handled 'ladle' (it has a long metal handle with a cup on the end exactly like the cups we use for zapivka, etc) into the various smaller chalices.
I wasn't close enough to see exactly but I would assume that hot water was also added to the chalices.

By the way a nice touch was that when it came time for the people to commune, a number of bishops went down into separate areas of the main part of the church, each with a chalice, from which they communed the people. Considering that possibly thousands communed, this was the most practical method I had ever seen.

In Christ- Fr Raphael




To answer this question. The spoon with which the Precious Blood is moved from one chalice to the other is not an ordinary communion spoon. Your deacon is correct in saying that it would take too long. The spoon that is used is a special spoon that is very large - as large as a gravy or even soup ladle. The ones I have encountered are at least of 1/4 cup capacity. This ladle/spoon is not then used for the communing of the faithful - how could it, it is too large - but rather smaller spoons of the "normal" size are used.

Also it seems to me that the pratice of "dipping" the consecrated lamb into each of the prepared chalices is consistent with the Greek practice at the presnctified of presuming that by putting the presanctified gifts into the chalice that the formerly unsancitfied wine becomes the Precious Blood by contact with the Gifts. However this is not the presumption of the Russian Church where the wine in the chalice at the presanctified liturgy is not considered to be sanctified of itself, but remains only blessed wine - the presanctified gifts being the only Mysteries present. This is the reason that infants are often not communed at the presanctified liturgy unless they can be given a particle of the presanctified gifts - because just giving them liquid as would be done at the regular liturgy does not give to them the Holy Mysteries, but only blessed wine; and it is also the reason that the priest or deacon who wil consume the chalice at the presanctified liturgy does not partake of the wine at communion since that would "force" him to "break the fast" before consuming the last of the gifts.

Fr David Moser

[Paul Cowan]

Thank you both Fathers,

I was puzzled how a single chalice could possibly service several other chalices in a timely fashion. I assume there is not a specified amount of blessed wine that needs to be put into each chalice and to "guarantee" there will be enough blood for the faithful,(1 ladel each?) enough hot water is then added to fill up the chalices to ensure everyone is fed?

Has there ever been an instance when a chalice was depleted before everyone was fed? I would hate to be the person that had to hear, "sorry, ran out". That would probably instill a little paranoia in me. :0

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Thank you both Fathers,

I was puzzled how a single chalice could possibly service several other chalices in a timely fashion. I assume there is not a specified amount of blessed wine that needs to be put into each chalice and to "guarantee" there will be enough blood for the faithful,(1 ladel each?) enough hot water is then added to fill up the chalices to ensure everyone is fed?

Has there ever been an instance when a chalice was depleted before everyone was fed? I would hate to be the person that had to hear, "sorry, ran out". That would probably instill a little paranoia in me. :0

At the proskomedia the priest has a sense of how many communicants there regularly are or will be during that Liturgy and then pours in an appropriate amount of wine mixed with water. The size of the Cup also obviously has to correspond to this.

It is after the Communion Hymn when the curtains are closed and before the communion of the clergy that the priest then puts warm water into the Cup saying special verses. This means that when the priest first poured in the wine and water into the Cup at the proskomedia he kept in mind that warm water would also have to be added later.

Over time the priest automatically gets a sense of this. So although it probably has happened somewhere during the past 2000 years :) I have never seen or heard of it during my time. By the way if the Cup really was literally running out one could just return to the Altar before the Cup was completely empty (ie it still had some of the precious Blood in it) and add more warm water.

A question here I've never thought of before as I've never experienced this problem before: if one was to add more warm water again to the Cup could one also add more wine to this? I seem to recall one major Feast where I suddenly had more communcants than expected and added more water and wine. But this was when I was still at the Altar ready to put the particles of the Body into the Cup.

In Christ- Fr Raphael