Orthodox regard for Roman Catholic preisthood and sacraments

[Jennifer]

Hello, I have a quick question, that I know could also become quite involved...

The other day I was speaking to a new Roman Catholic acquaintance. He told me that the Roman Catholic Chruch officially regards the Eastern Orthodox preisthood and sacraments as valid. He asked me if the Orthodox Church had a reciprocal doctrine about Roman Catholic preisthood and sacraments. I told him I did not know. Does anyone know the answer to this question? And could anyone possibly direct me to writings or resources that would answer this question.

Thanks,
Jennifer

[Kris]

Hi,

According to the first Canon of St. Basil, which was incorporated into the decrees of the Sixth Ecumenical Council:
"The beginning, true enough, of the separation resulted through a schism, but those who seceded from the Church had not the grace of Holy Spirit upon them; for the impartation thereof ceased with the interruption of the service. For although the ones who were the first to depart had been ordained by the fathers and with the impartation of their hands had obtained the gracious gift of the Spirit, yet after breaking away they became laymen, and had no authority either to baptize or to ordain anyone, nor could they impart the grace of the Spirit to others, after they themselves had forfeited it."

Of course, interpretation of his words may vary, but given Rome's propagation of heresies unacceptable to the Church of Christ, and the obvious schism that exists between them and us, I would suggest we do not regard as valid the priesthood of the Catholics, regardless of Apostolic succession, given the above words of St. Basil.

In XC,
Kris

[Dimitris]

Hallo Jennifer!

You might also want to look on a response by Father David Moser to a quite similar statement made by me: http://www.monachos.net/forum/showthread.php?p=40596#post40596.

Kind regards,
Dimitris

[Mourad Mankarios]

The other day I was speaking to a new Roman Catholic acquaintance. He told me that the Roman Catholic Chruch officially regards the Eastern Orthodox preisthood and sacraments as valid. He asked me if the Orthodox Church had a reciprocal doctrine about Roman Catholic preisthood and sacraments. I told him I did not know. Does anyone know the answer to this question? And could anyone possibly direct me to writings or resources that would answer this question.


This really wouldn't make much sense since to consider the sacraments and priesthood as valid would mean that both churches were in full communion and could also concelebrate. This would also deny the validity of the dogmatic position of the Catholic church and neglect the differences which separate the two churches.

It seems to me that the response given above may not be a true and accurate or precise reflection of the perspective of the Catholic church on the question given.

To say that there is grace perhaps within another church, which is perhaps a more precise statement of the position of both the Catholic and EO churches, would be quite different I believe from stating in the affirmative with regards to the sacramental validity of such a church.

[Alex Haig]

According to the first Canon of St. Basil, which was incorporated into the decrees of the Sixth Ecumenical Council:
"The beginning, true enough, of the separation resulted through a schism, but those who seceded from the Church had not the grace of Holy Spirit upon them; for the impartation thereof ceased with the interruption of the service. For although the ones who were the first to depart had been ordained by the fathers and with the impartation of their hands had obtained the gracious gift of the Spirit, yet after breaking away they became laymen, and had no authority either to baptize or to ordain anyone, nor could they impart the grace of the Spirit to others, after they themselves had forfeited it."

(bold added)


How does this correspond with laymen being able to baptise (in emergencies)?

With love in Christ

Alex

[Paul Cowan]

Phillip baptised the eunich on the side of the road, Peter baptised Corneliuse's family when sent for. Yes these both were Apostles, but if a devout person was ministering to, say a third world nation, or even this country as sparce as it is with Orthodox churches, and the person was converted and now a believer, what is preventing the devout person from baptising him?

I understand the scarament and the blessing of the priest on the catachumen, but I am hearing you say, if a priest cannot do it, the person will never be baptised into John's Baptism. Of course a priest would need to be sought out to finish the baptism of the Holy Spirit, and this is not to say, just because it is inconvenient not to go find a priest to begin with.

God will judge those outside the church. I will go back to the example of Phillip. If this situation happened today, my understanding of it is I would have to tell this person, "sorry, I am not a priest, you are out of luck. Don't worry about the Bible saying you can get baptised in this pond over here. Live the best life you can perhaps I will see you on the other side."

I am talking about extreme situations. It just does not sound right though.

Paul

[Chris Manaras]

Hello, I have a quick question, that I know could also become quite involved...

The other day I was speaking to a new Roman Catholic acquaintance. He told me that the Roman Catholic Chruch officially regards the Eastern Orthodox preisthood and sacraments as valid. He asked me if the Orthodox Church had a reciprocal doctrine about Roman Catholic preisthood and sacraments. I told him I did not know. Does anyone know the answer to this question? And could anyone possibly direct me to writings or resources that would answer this question.

Thanks,
Jennifer


Hi Jennifer,

it had been sugersted to me to leave the legalistic points dividing EO and RC to the legalists and concentrate in a spirit of love on the similarities.

If I get too into what is and isn't recognized from each by the other, then I will lose sight of what is right by God.

In the meantime, I pray for those in a position to restore unity.
And I re-read this joint-declaration every once in a while.
http://www.ecupatriarchate.org/press/articles.php?id=99

[Jennifer]

Thank you, everyone, for your responses. They were very helpful; I really was not sure where to begin to even think about how to determine the validity or not of another churches sacraments and preisthood.

The quote of St. Basil and the link to Fr. David Moser's response were especially helpful. Thank you also for sending the link to the joint declaration; I had not seen that before!

Jennifer

[Kosta]

Baptism by a layperson using "air baptism" in case of emergency doesnt seem to mean much. If that person (tend to be an infant) survives, he is then baptised as one who never has been. I've even spoken to a monk whose never heard of such a thing. Many clergy do not accept emergency baptism without the use of water.

Emergency baptism by sprinkling of (holy?) water by a layperson according to canon 12 (of neocaesaria in 315 a.d).. If the bed-ridden person happens to survive, this canon teaches that he cannot be accepted into the priesthood. You decide what this kind of baptism is regarded as in the Church.

Orthodoxy does not accept emergency baptism performed by a non-orthodox. In Orthodoxy nothing of the Church can be made effective by one outside the Church.

Rome on the other hand allows emergency baptism even by atheists, muslims etc, according to their belief ,it is not the person baptising but the Holy Spirit.

[Anthony]

There is an interesting story in (St. Nicholas) Cavasilas about an actor who performed a mock baptism on the stage to make fun of Christians, and was so overwhelmed by the experience that he was converted and professed faith in Christ with tears. I think he was immediately martyred (so the question of subsequent baptism didn't arise). I don't know what conclusions to draw from this, so I don't draw any - but I thought it might be worth bringing up.

[Nina]

There is an interesting story in (St. Nicholas) Cavasilas about an actor who performed a mock baptism on the stage to make fun of Christians, and was so overwhelmed by the experience that he was converted and professed faith in Christ with tears. I think he was immediately martyred (so the question of subsequent baptism didn't arise). I don't know what conclusions to draw from this, so I don't draw any - but I thought it might be worth bringing up.

Dear Anthony,

There are three kind of baptisms:

1. Orthodox conventional one. Three immersions in water, in the name of the Holy Trinity.
-A subcategory of this baptism, is baptism in air when a neonate is in life threatening risk. However if the neonate survives there should be a conventional baptism.

2. Baptism by blood. Martyrs who were not baptized and professed Christ.

3. Baptism by tears. The rarest one. A living Saint baptizes through his tears someone who is in Hell (for instance Saint Gregory the Great, the Dialogist who baptized the soul of emperor Trajan; and first woman-Martyr Thekla, who rescued the soul of Falconila).

The story of the actor, which is so moving, is a unique case, when God turned the farse into a divine miracle, by enlightening the actor's mind and opening his spiritual eyes. However, what counted as baptism for the actor was his martyrdom (the second baptism which is by blood).

[Nina]

There is an interesting story in (St. Nicholas) Cavasilas about an actor who performed a mock baptism on the stage to make fun of Christians, and was so overwhelmed by the experience that he was converted and professed faith in Christ with tears.


The story of the actor, which is so moving, is a unique case, when God turned the farse into a divine miracle, by enlightening the actor's mind and opening his spiritual eyes. However, what counted as baptism for the actor was his martyrdom (the second baptism which is by blood).

We commemorate this actor tomorrow, September 15.

From my email:

Martyr Porphyrius the Actor

The Holy Martyr Porphyrius suffered during the reign of Julian the Apostate (361-363). Porphyrius was an actor and on the emperor's birthday he was performing a role at the theater, where he was supposed to mock the mystery of holy Baptism.

During the play Porphyrius was immersed in water and said: "The servant of God, Porphyrius, is baptized in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit." Through divine grace, he emerged from the water and confessed himself a Christian. Julian ordered him to be tortured, and after the torments, to be beheaded. This took place in the city of Ephesus in the year 361.

[Anthony]

Dear Nina,

Many thanks for providing this information about St Porphyrius. It is a story that had stuck in my memory, but I couldn't remember the name.

Anthony