The significance of a proper understanding of tradition within the Church

[Athanasius Abdullah]

Dear all,

Very recently, I was having a conversation with a friend from my parish regarding Tradition. She was unwittingly promoting the typical misconception of Tradition according to which it constitutes pretty much "everything else we have in writing concerning the Faith, outside of the Scriptures." I tried to explain the Orthodox conception to her, but it seemed a bit over her head.

After various attempts to get her to understand, and repeated failure, she said, "Athanasius, i'm getting a headache! Is it really so important for us to waste so much time discussing this? I'm but a simple person", to which I responded, "As long as you're part of the Church, you're living Tradition, so I guess it's not that important whether or not you can mentally grasp it...."

I feel a little uncomfortable with my answer though. Can someone help me articulate in words why it is important for those already living Tradition to have a proper theoretical appreciation of it as well (aside from its obvious necessity for effective evangelism)? How can such an appreciation enhance one's practical spiritual life within the Church? Or does it not really matter at all in that regard?


In XC
Athanasius

[John Charmley]

Dear Athanasius,


"As long as you're part of the Church, you're living Tradition, so I guess it's not that important whether or not you can mentally grasp it...."

I feel a little uncomfortable with my answer though. Can someone help me articulate in words why it is important for those already living Tradition to have a proper theoretical appreciation of it as well (aside from its obvious necessity for effective evangelism)? How can such an appreciation enhance one's practical spiritual life within the Church? Or does it not really matter at all in that regard?


A good question, to which there are going to be, I suspect, a variety of answers. My perspective would be that anything which deepens one's appreciation of Orthodoxy as a living faith is to be encouraged - but that, as in Acts 15, one should beware of making the yoke too heavy. If trying to come alongside and incorporate what the Fathers write into one's daily Christian life is problematic, then it should be attempted in small doses and with help from others.

Because we are part of that living tradition, there are other ways we encounter Tradition, but it does help to know something of the context and the actual texts of that tradition - simply because what the Fathers write is God-inspired, and it nourishes one in the Faith.

So I would say that since we encounter tradition every day, knowing something more about it can only be a help; but since not everyone cares to ingest it in the same way, we know the Church provides for a variety of ways in which we come to know it.

In Christ,

John

[Paul Cowan]

So I would say that since we encounter tradition every day, knowing something more about it can only be a help; but since not everyone cares to ingest it in the same way, we know the Church provides for a variety of ways in which we come to know it.

I agree with John on this. Whenever I am asked (usually by protestants(my family)) about tradition and sola scriptora, I have them look at

2 Thessalonians
15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.

I ask them what their understanding of salvation is. They say to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. (or some variation) I ask them is that all? They say yes, that is all you need to know. I then say to them this is like getting married and never talking to your spouse again or finding out about their past life or getting to know their persoanlities or having any type of relationship. How long do you think the marriage would last if you knew nothing of the other person or did not long to know everything about them?

To know Jesus as Lord is but the very basics of Christianity. St. Paul talked about Christians feeding on meat not milk. How are we to grow in Christ if we don't learn from the traditions He Hmself was taught and did teach. Not everything was written down in our Bibles. Traditions were expected to be known and followed.


Matthew 15 But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Fasting to Be Seen Only by God

16 “Moreover, when you fast, do not be like the hypocrites, with a sad countenance. For they disfigure their faces that they may appear to men to be fasting. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward. 17 But you, when you fast, anoint your head and wash your face,

He assumed people naturally fasted.


1 Corinthians 3
Sectarianism Is Carnal
1 And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ. 2 I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able; 3 for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men?


Hebrews 5:11 of whom we have much to say, and hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing.

Spiritual Immaturity

12 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the first principles of the oracles of God; and you have come to need milk and not solid food. 13 For everyone who partakes only of milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a babe. 14 But solid food belongs to those who are of full age, that is, those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.


Paul

[John Charmley]

Dear Paul, Dear Athanasius,

St. Gregory of Nyssa wrote:
By its likeness to God human nature is made as it were a living image partaking with the Godhead both in rank and name, clothed in virtue, reposing in the blessedness of immortality, garlanded with the crown of righteousness, and so a perfect likeness to the beauty of the Godhead in all that belongs to the dignity of majesty. De hominis Opificio, IV 136.
Although here he is writing about our nature before the Fall, he has the same passion when writing about us as we are; we are a triumph, and that triumph lies in our likeness to God.
Man's soul is a mirror in which he can see God.

It is for such moments of uplift and illumination that we have such gratitude to the Fathers - and that is one of the reasons why we read them.

In Christ,

John

[Shawn Lazar]

I was wondering whether it is somewhat helpful to distinguish between (a) Tradition and (b) custom.

It seems to be the case that what some Orthodox believers consider the unchanging 'Tradition' of the church is really just a time-honored but culture-bound 'custom' not shared by all believers. You might think of the Western vs. Eastern Orthodox liturgies, monastic life, and devotional practices, for example.

No doubt confusing Tradition and custom will only make it harder to explain the purpose and source of Tradition to both Orthodox believers and evangelicals (such as myself).

In Him,
Shawn

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

I was wondering whether it is somewhat helpful to distinguish between (a) Tradition and (b) custom.

It seems to be the case that what some Orthodox believers consider the unchanging 'Tradition' of the church is really just a time-honored but culture-bound 'custom' not shared by all believers. You might think of the Western vs. Eastern Orthodox liturgies, monastic life, and devotional practices, for example.

No doubt confusing Tradition and custom will only make it harder to explain the purpose and source of Tradition to both Orthodox believers and evangelicals (such as myself).

In Him,
Shawn

Custom is those things done from human convention and habit.

Tradition is how the Holy Spirit guides the life of the Church though time. This means that for the Church, Tradition is not just custom as guided by the Holy Spirit. Rather Tradition is the manifestation of the Church's very life in its every aspect.

In other words without the guidance from and manifestation of the Holy Spirit there is no Church & there is no Tradition. A so called church without the Holy Spirit and Tradition is not the Church. It is religious custom and moral endeavour of some sort. In other words it is something most human no matter how good or noble.

Without the Church there is only human custom no matter how much it varies or changes shape over time.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Trudy]

She was unwittingly promoting the typical misconception of Tradition according to which it constitutes pretty much "everything else we have in writing concerning the Faith, outside of the Scriptures."

I'm but a simple person", to which I responded, "As long as you're part of the Church, you're living Tradition, so I guess it's not that important whether or not you can mentally grasp it...."

Last night while reading Saint Silouan by Fr. Sophrony I came across the following:

"For the Staretz the life of the Church meant life in the Holy Spirit, and Sacred Tradition the unceasing action of the Holy Spirit in her. Sacred Tradition, as the eternal and immutable dwelling of the Holy Spirit in the Church, lies at the very root of her being, and so encompasses her life that even the very Scriptures come to be but one of its forms. Thus, were the Church to be deprived of Tradition, she would cease to be what she is, for the ministry of the New Testament is the ministry of the Spirit 'written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stones, but in the fleshly table of the heart.' (II Cor.iii:3).

"Suppose that for some reason the Church were to be bereft of all her books, of the Old and New Testaments, the works of the Holy Fathers, of all service books - what would happen? Sacred Tradition would restore the Scriptures, not word for word, perhaps - the verbal form might be different - but in essence the new Scriptures would be the expression of that same 'faith which was once delivered unto the saints.' (Jude verse 3)

"The Scriptures are not more profound, not more important than Holy Tradition but, as said above, they are one of its forms - the most precious form, both because they are preserved and convenient to make use of. But removed from the stream of Sacred Tradition, the Scriptures cannot be rightly understood through any scientific research.'" (p. 87-88)

~Trudy~

[Dimitris]

Hallo!

Please allow me two side questions:

1. Did and does the Roman Catholic Church have the same exact view on Holy Tradition as the Orthodox Church?

2. Can the term "Holy Tradition" be regarded somehow as a synonym to the term "faith"? If I look at the last statement by Fr. Sophrony quoted by Trudy, I can very much imagine the term "Tradition" to be replaced by "faith" and still retain the same sense. (I wished I would be better able to express in English what I think in German.) Can you say that Holy Tradition is the source for our faith or the source of how we live our faith?

Dimitris

[Owen Jones]

Tradition is a term that has suffered significant corruption, so perhaps we ought to just junk it. There is a Greek term I am searching for and it is not coming out ...perhaps you can help me all? I think it might be loosely translated as living faith or a culture of faith or something like that.

[Andrew]

Tradition is a term that has suffered significant corruption, so perhaps we ought to just junk it. There is a Greek term I am searching for and it is not coming out ...perhaps you can help me all? I think it might be loosely translated as living faith or a culture of faith or something like that.

Paradosis?

[Paul Cowan]

Paradosis:

Definition
giving up, giving over
the act of giving up
the surrender of cities
a giving over which is done by word of mouth or in writing, i.e. tradition by instruction, narrative, precept, etc.
objectively, that which is delivered, the substance of a teaching
of the body of precepts, esp. ritual, which in the opinion of the later Jews were orally delivered by Moses and orally transmitted in unbroken succession to subsequent generations, which precepts, both illustrating and expanding the written law, as they did were to be obeyed with equal reverence



This also (http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/phronema/st_ch5.aspx)

[Owen Jones]

might work, but not the word I'm trying to think of...

[Owen Jones]

...phronema!

[Paul Cowan]

Phronema
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Phronema is a Greek term that is used in Eastern Orthodox theology to refer to mindset or outlook; it is the Orthodox mind. [1] The attaining of phronema is a matter of practicing the correct faith (orthodoxia) in the correct manner (orthopraxia). Attaining phronema is regarded as the first step toward theosis, the state of glorification. [2]


And this (http://www.orthodoxresearchinstitute.org/articles/dogmatics/stylianos_theologian_society.htm) from Archbishop Stylianos of Australia

Paul