How to discern a calling when you're not spiritually centered

[Dionysios DiGregorio]

How does one know they are called to monastic life? Is it possible to discern anything without the guidance of a Spiritual Father? (Especially when I feel so spiritually off center lately....) Why does it seem so difficult to find a Spiritual Father? Is it just me or do others also find it to be extremely difficult to find any sort of spiritual father? If anyone has any insight or wise words to offer me I would appreciate it so much; I agonize over this daily.

This seems like such an obvious question, surely anyone and everyone who has pursued the monastic life has struggled with the decision; at least to some degree, though I'm sure that God has blessed some with the confidence of knowing that monasticism was right for them from the beginning; for myself it hasn't been so easy as I have struggled with this for maybe ten years now.

I am afraid of what will become of my life if I don't become a monk, yet I'm afraid that I might want to be a monk for the 'wrong' reasons. I'm afraid I won't be accepted, and I'm even afraid that I will be. I'm reminded of the Groucho Marx quip about not joining any club that would have him as a member; I'm afraid of going to a monastery that isn't healthy, I've seen and heard of such horrible things that can happen; a place that I even once thought of as wonderful and also considered as an option has since lost all connection to anything remotely canonical and ending it's days in a horrible scandal, I don't know what to think of it but I'm very leery of American monasteries. The only monasteries I've seen that seem to take heed to tradition are those of Father Ephraim's, most of the others I've seen seem to be in various stages of dysfunction I'm sorry to say.

Though I realize that "the grass is always greener on the other side" I find myself longing for a life of monastic sacrifice. I feel at least in part that I will have no peace unless I'm living the way I'm supposed to be living; and something inside of me says that it's a monastic life that I'm called to, I don't know why the discord within me I just can't seem to feel right about it. Maybe it wouldn't be as difficult if it was just my decision; but it's not; not only do I have to make up my mind, but then I have to hope and pray that there will be a community that will accept me, and one that I can commit to. I don't know that I'd be able to fit in anywhere, of course this I will never know if I don't try, yet when it occurs to me instead I despair.

I wasn't even Orthodox until I was 33, I lived a reckless life before that and didn't transform over night exactly - God knows I still have such a long way to go; I've been married and divorced with no children but have lived alone and celibate since. I spent two years living monastically, but it wasn't the healthiest of monasteries either, with virtually no tradition to speak of; it seems to me that this is a problem with many monasteries in this country (USA), or probably anywhere where there might exist monasteries that are run by Abbots that were never monks themselves. I don't understand how one can be formed by an Abbot that was never himself formed or how these monasteries that exist can get their tradition not from their life experience but from reading a few books. I don't wish to sound overly judgemental and I would be blessed to be accepted anywhere, none the less this is what I've seen and it makes me wonder if it's just my jaded perspective or is there any truth in this; does it not seem like this to anyone else?

Despite this lack of any real roots my experience with monasticism was one of living the cycle of services and least in some ways no different than monastics everywhere. Admittedly while I was there I felt we were lacking in many ways, but since I've been away I've longed to return.

When I left I became active in my Parish and tried to integrate myself back into "the world", but right from the beginning I've felt a bit the odd man out. It's really hard to explain, but it's a little late in life for me to settle down and raise a family, I feel out of place at family centered Parish events, and even more out of place in this world I once was a part of. I don't enjoy the things I used to enjoy before I became Orthodox I don't know where to go or what to do with my life sometimes.

When I first returned to life in the city I was self employed and could remain active in my Parish, unfortunately I wasn't making ends meet - I had time to volunteer for everything but had trouble paying rent and bills from time to time, so I decided to learn computer science which enabled me to get a much better job, unfortunately now the job demands all my time. I'd quite it in a heartbeat but can't seem to make it financially otherwise.

Consequently for the last few years my Church life has suffered, as I'm either scheduled or on call around the clock. I've been scheduled to work Sundays for almost two years now, so that even going to Church once a week has become difficult; prior to this job I went to Church at least twice a week but these last couple of years it's been all I can do to go at all and I feel terrible about it. I'm the first to admit that I was never the most ascetic of any group but in a monastic environ I do much better, at least average, but living in this world that is so opposite of the life I am meant to live it becomes increasingly difficult; even the easiest disciplines seem to suffer; not to mention the more difficult and important considerations like for example getting and keeping a good Spiritual Father relationship; my Church has changed Priests several times lately and not since I was at the monastery have I had any kind of consistent spiritual father/son relationship - not one that I could actually CALL that.

I do have one idea that I'm hoping to act on, thanks in part to this message board and my past experience, I'm lucky enough to be within proximity to Holy Archangels; as soon as I have a reliable car my goal is to make regular trips if I can, maybe a couple times a month, and maybe things will come together for me then. I would love to go to another country as I've seen it suggested in another thread but wouldn't know where to start.

I'm open to and asking for any and all advice and/or prayer. I love my Orthodox faith but feel I'm being pulled in different directions. What can I do?

In Christ,
Dionysios

[Rick H.]

Dear Dionysios,

I am sorry that I do not have any wise words or insight to offer you on this; but, I know that there are others here who may. And, I look forward, with you, to hearing what may be offered to some of your sincere questions and comments. You have raised some very penetrating and profound questions, not unlike another poet who spoke of "deep calling to deep." May God bless you in your search my fellow seeker.

In Christ,
Rick

[Herman Blaydoe]

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Most Orthodox monasteries practice the ancient tradition of allowing at least three days of hospitality to any who ask. Longer visits can be arranged with the abbot, depending on space available of course. It is good to get involved with the daily life of a monastery to see how it "fits" for you. It is also important for the abbot of the monastery to get to know you to see how you "fit" with them. You really need to visit more than one monastery, although monastic practice in Orthodoxy does not have formal "orders" like Catholicism, there is a fairly wide range of praxis as you have obviously already seen.

A visit to Mt. Athos, however you can manage it, would certainly be worthwhile. Hopefully Fr. Seraphim will provide some information and advice.

If you are not aware, you can check out some information on monasteries at Orthodox Monasteries of North America (http://omna.malf.net). There are several links that also provide information on monasteries in other parts of the world. I have heard wonderful stories about the monasteries of Romania.

God be with you on your spiritual journey.

Herman

[Dionysios DiGregorio]

Glory to Jesus Christ!



A visit to Mt. Athos, however you can manage it, would certainly be worthwhile. Hopefully Fr. Seraphim will provide some information and advice.



If you are not aware, you can check out some information on monasteries at Orthodox Monasteries of North America (http://omna.malf.net). There are several links that also provide information on monasteries in other parts of the world. I have heard wonderful stories about the monasteries of Romania.

God be with you on your spiritual journey.

Herman

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Thank you Herman, I will check these links for information I may have missed.

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You have raised some very penetrating and profound questions, not unlike another poet who spoke of "deep calling to deep."

May God bless you in your search my fellow seeker.

In Christ,

Rick



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Psalm 42:7 and at least one poem by Follette express the 'deep calling to deep' you refer to; I'm not sure which one you mean but it's a beautiful expression any way. Thanks Rick!

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Thanks to both of you who replied; I can't say that I've been to most of the monasteries in the US, but I can say that I'm familiar with a few; I've stayed for several weeks at three monasteries and stayed two years at a fourth. Some of the monasteries I've seen did not seem healthy to me; though there are at least two that I'd love to return to would they allow me. I don't know if it's an objective observation or if it's my jaded perspective; but I remain leery of US monasteries.



I have no fear of being in an environment where the language is strange or the political climate dangerous; I have a knack for picking up whatever language is spoken, I might not speak it like a native but I've been able to get by. What I do worry about, as I get older, (50+) is my health, my energy level and skill set; none of which are great enough to make me of much value to anyone; that doesn't mean that I wouldn't do anything and everything within my means to contribute fully to any community, but where the spirit is willing there are certainly times when the flesh is weak. Aside from those worries I would love to be able to go to a monastery outside the U.S. - I don't know that I can articulate why exactly, but I would just love it, I just adore the idea. I have no doubt that it would be difficult and have thought about the many hardships I'd be sure to encounter were I to ever be so blessed, none the less I love the thought.



I know of a couple of small groups of people who have gone to Mt. Athos, and have heard about the way they receive guests - but I have never heard of anyone who has gone there with the intention of staying. I wonder how difficult it would be to stay for good. What are the chances of locating to a monastery outside the US? Is it something I could really consider?



On another note: I did notice after making my post that these questions have been brought up by previous posters, as I am in the process of perusing the old posts I apologize for the annoyance of bringing up these same questions again; though my situation may be a little different, my questions are the same- I will look though these previous posts and check the links offered - I appreciate that you've taken the time to reply to my questions despite their redundancy as it makes me feel as if Im getting advice specific to me. Again thanks.



The nature of my questions are such that no one will be able to answer them all fully; I realize that nobody can tell me what I should do especially without knowing me beyond being an anonymous poster on a message board, but I've been reading a few posts and am very impressed with the width and scope of knowlege many of you possess. Despite those things I'm in a quandry over, there are many very practical questions that I need to find answers to as well. I promise to review the other posts as well as the links you've shared with me before posting any more questions, I'm sure I'll have more.

Until then -
D

[Owen Jones]

You may wish to write to the Abbot of Vatopedi on Athos with your questions. In the meantime, it strikes me that stillness is a virtue that can and should be acquired anywhere, anytime, and to seek out monasticism as a cure to your restlessness is probably putting the cart before the horse. Being irritable, restless and discontented is an affliction that has a prescribed cure. But one has to be pretty clinical about it. Here are a few suggestions:

1) stop fighting and arguing about it. The soul cannot find peace when it is debating with itself.

2) write down a list of your sins, past and present, and your memories of them. Be thorough. Then confess these to a priest.

3) Repeat steps one and two -- but don't go over the same territory. Only what you missed the first time.

4) Now write down a list of everything and everyone that bugs you. Then ask yourself why, and write that down too.

5) Now ask yourself this question, have I been entirely honest? Am I blaming others or blaming myself?

6) Then go back and do step 4 over again.

7) Stop praying for answers. Stop demanding answers from God in your prayers. There is a big difference between a demand and a request. In your prayers, humbly ask God to help you change your ways.

8) During the day, pay attention to every thought or action, internally and externally, that causes you to be impatient with yourself, with others.

9) Stop trying to control what God does or does not do. "Thy will, not mine be done."

[Paul Cowan]

Well put Owen,

You have no idea how close this was to a good 12 step program.
I personally think Bill and Dr. Bob were Orthodox.


The 12 Suggested Steps of ..... Anonymous

1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol--that our lives had become unmanageable.

2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.

3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.

4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.

5. Admitted to God, to ourselves and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.

6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.

7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.

8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.

9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.

10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.

11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God, as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.

12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.

Good steps to live by whether an addict or not. Wouldn't you say?
http://www.amazon.com/Steps-Transformation-Orthodox-Priest-Explores/dp/1888212632

Is a book about the 12 steps from an Orthodox priest.

[Karena Hryniuk]

Dionysios,

Its wonderful that you are comfortable enough to share your personal story here. There are many kind people here including Spiritual Fathers willing to help and care during our difficult times, which we all have. Its quite possible you are being called to enter a monastic life, but your frustration over it is obviously overwhelming your experience, which should certainly be one without distress or question. The Holy Spirit guides us in many directions that sometimes can feel like an obstacle course! However it is always with reason. There may possibly be someone waiting for you or something else you must accomplish or encounter before making such a large decision. Take a breath and just be yourself for a while, the answer is sure to come in due time.

The above questions added by Owen (Seraphim) are very good ones. A bit more self-examination might be of help as well. Making decisions for the right reasons is most important.

I`m up here in cool Canada but maybe someone here from the US can suggest Spiritual Father to you depending on where you live.

Prayers and Blessings upon you Dear Brother

[Dionysios DiGregorio]

I personally think Bill and Dr. Bob were Orthodox.

Thank you for your reply Paul;
I'm not sure what about my posting would bring the subject of 12-steps into the thread, as I don't recall saying anything related to alchoholism or addiction. It so happens that I do have experience with that struggle, however I currently have been clean and sober for many years and it's really not among my top three considerations when approaching the subject of monasticism. On the other hand these types of issues are not so easily swept under the rug, it is a special problem -and I have mixed feelings about the 12 step movement. None the less I will have a look at the book you mention; "Steps of Transformation" by Father Webber Meletios and consider what he writes. I'd probably get more out of his book than I can say I've ever gotten from the "Big Book", but I'll read the book before saying anything else.

I do however also happen to know that Bill and Dr. Bob were absolutely NOT Orthodox. The founders of AA were involved in something called the Oxford Group movement during their early days, but there is absolutely no record of either Bill Wilson or Bob Smith ever having any connection at all with any Orthodox Church whatsoever, it would almost seem as though they were completely unaware of Orthodoxy, since their approach was never exclusive they would certainly have mentioned their awareness of it if they had any. Besides their wish to appeal to everyone regardless of what they believed they delved into heresies, psychology, LSD and occultism.

A Lutheran minister by the name of Frank Buchman began a movement which he originally called "A First Century Christian Fellowship" which he changed to the "Oxford Group" in 1928. The other leader of the movement, Samuel Shoemaker, was also influential in the development of AA and was rector of an Episcopal church. The thrust of the movement was experience rather than doctrine or any sort of tradition. Buchman explained that "he never touched any doctrine in any of his meetings, as he did not want to upset or offend anyone." By keeping his beliefs to himself, Buchman was able to appeal to people of all religious persuasions.

Bill Wilson described the Oxford Group as follows:
"The Oxford Group was a nondenominational evangelical movement, stream lined for the modern world and then at the height of its very considerable success. . . . They would deal in simple common denominators of all religions..."

In contrast, the Orthodox Church has always taught that there is no salvation outside the Church, as it's written in Matthew Chapter 7;
"13Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."

So, with all due respect to you and your opinion, as much as I appreciate the value of the 12 steps as a movement and as a vehicle to transform lives, I can not and do not see it as "Orthodox" - in fact most of the meetings I've attended have been hotbeds for immoral activity of all types, most notably the accepted "13th step" - I've also seen countless members denigrate organized religion as "man made", or define themselves as "recovering Catholics" and the like. Perhaps my experiences are uncommon, but that's what I've seen; I would no more attend a twelve step meeting than I would attend a Protestant church service, perhaps I'll read something in this book to change my mind. I was buying a few books today anyway, I just added that book to the order...so thanks for the recommendation! :)



In the meantime, it strikes me that stillness is a virtue that can and should be acquired anywhere, anytime, and to seek out monasticism as a cure to your restlessness is probably putting the cart before the horse.

Thanks for taking a moment to reply Owen;
I couldn't agree with you more and I believe that this is something we all can and should do; however I'm not so sure I understand what about my thinking is putting the cart before the horse if that's what you're saying; but if I am maybe you can help me to understand how. Perhaps I gave the impression that I was seeking monasticism as a cure for my restlessness, however I don't think that I am: well...maybe the desire to go outside the U.S. is motivated by a feeling of restlessness, I'll concede that in part, yes I do sometimes want to flee and go as far away as possible; but when the anxiety subsides and I think in more practical terms I realize that where the monastery is matters little.

Anyway...this is not a sudden whim; this is something that has been on my mind for over ten maybe even fifteen years, I've gone so far as to stay for a couple of years at one, prior to which I made visits to a couple of other U.S. monasteries for weeks at a time. I am leery of U.S. monasteries as I admitted, but I also have to admit that I was leery before I even saw a monastery in the U.S., so even if there is good reason for me to be leery and even if one could go so far as to say that most U.S. monasteries are not healthy (something I can't say) that would never mean that there can't be or isn't maybe even many excellant monasteries in the U.S. Generalizations are never completely true.

I also have no illusions that it's a life of walking on air and glowing in the dark, I've seen first hand that it's hard work and not at all easy. I did say that it's easier to maintain discipline in a monastery, but not easy meaning with little effort, but rather I mean easy in the sense that I have other living people physically present that I felt accountable to, which provided a constant sort of motivation that outside of monastic living (and family living) I just don't have.

I'm not really thinking monasticism will cure anything or provide anything except for a way of life, and it's a healthy way of life that I feel I need so desperately. I do think that the Church can cure me of whatever my diseases are, but not a cure that comes by magic; rather one that comes through the the process of theosis as described by Hierotheos Vlachos in Orthodox Psychotherapy. I think that if I was in an environ of people who had the same faith as I that right there would be a wonderful thing; but what's more is that as a man, over fifty years of age, without family, single, not married, no children... you get the idea...

I tend to think living in a monastery would be the healthiest thing I could do. I don't think I was 'meant' to live completely alone. Not so much that I would get a cure from anything, but I do think I would benefit greatly from it. There are times when I also feel that it's what I'm supposed to be doing. I realize that this might not make much sense, but it's just a sense or feeling that it's my duty to try to do this. That said your advice is wonderful and I appreciate it, it's not only great advice but made me smile; self examination is and will always be an important part of the decisions I make. Although I've tried to make self examination very close to the way you describe it; with pen and paper even, part of my daily routine, I do sometimes forget; not only forget to do it but forget how important it is. These arguments between the innervoices when they quarrel within are seldom productive, and clearly my anxiety level was visible. Though I said I agonize over it daily, that's an exaggeration as I was agonizing over it then; but I think of it alot especially when I think about the future; obviously putting too much mental energy on either the past or the future doesn't do a lot of good; what you advise is a very good way to get back to the now. Thanks for that.

Oh and by the way...one other thing, how exactly does one go about writing the Abbot of Vatopedi on Athos?


Take a breath and just be yourself for a while, the answer is sure to come in due time.

Everything you said was kind and wonderful. Thank you for understanding and reminding me that there is no deadline, and there is certainly no reason to feel anxious about anything, expecially about something like this. If I'm to feel anxious about anything it should be about those things that are within my immediate power to do something about; as far as those things that are out of my hands, well they are out of my hands; thanks so much for reminding me too, the deep breath did wonders :)

I really enjoyed your replies
Thanks so much for them

w/Love in Christ,
Dionysios

[Paul Cowan]

Dear Dionysios;

I agree with this part and the lack of "morality" in those recovering.


So, with all due respect to you and your opinion, as much as I appreciate the value of the 12 steps as a movement and as a vehicle to transform lives, I can not and do not see it as "Orthodox" - in fact most of the meetings I've attended have been hotbeds for immoral activity of all types, most notably the accepted "13th step" - I've also seen countless members denigrate organized religion as "man made", or define themselves as "recovering Catholics" and the like. Perhaps my experiences are uncommon, but that's what I've seen;

Yes, there is trouble in paradise especially for those that are luke warm in their recovery or simply there to get the court order signed by the group leader.

I was not saying for truth that Bill and Bob were Orthodox (that was tongue in cheek), but the steps they came up with are in-line with an Orthodox life style. Your below quote touches on the 1st, 3rd, 4th, 9th, 10th steps. So out of the 7 bullet points you wrote you touched 5 of the 12 steps.

I am NOT saying any of the Anonynous programs are Orthodox. I am saying if done correctly, what they instill in our lives are in-line with Orthodox teachings on life. I know more than one priest that approves and encourages participation.




[QUOTE]I've also seen countless members denigrate organized religion as "man made", or define themselves as "recovering Catholics" and the like.

Yes, as have I. I do not find my salvation going to meetings, I do find living the tools of what is "correctly" taught to be of benefit to me and others. For example, For someone to hit bottom, they have probably given up on themselves and God. If any program (IMHO) brings people to God, more power to them.


Mark 9:38 Now John answered Him, saying, “Teacher, we saw someone who does not follow us casting out demons in Your name, and we forbade him because he does not follow us.”
39 But Jesus said, “Do not forbid him, for no one who works a miracle in My name can soon afterward speak evil of Me.

If a person "comes to himself" as in the Prodigal Son, and turns to God, Woohoo we won one soul back. It is then up to that person to find the One Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. Many people as you know find God through this program. To discount the program because of the faults of its members, I am sorry, is disappointing. It is the individuals responsibility to grow using the program, not the programs resposibility to grow the individual.


In contrast, the Orthodox Church has always taught that there is no salvation outside the Church, as it's written in Matthew Chapter 7;
"13Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."

Yes, true to point. However, God will judge those outside the Church, not us. I dare say there are people only God knows of that he will allow into Heaven on judgement day that don't know of the EO Church. I was brought into Orthodoxy by someone very close to me who found God through the 12 step program. So I credit the 12 steps for bringing 2 souls to the Church. It is a narrow path, I agree. I pray to God I don't slip off it. But being in a position to help others, I can also educate them on the EO Church when the topic of God comes around in their own time. This is a ministry/ evangelism I am given to do.

There is a time and a place for everything. I am not trying to be confrontational with you. I just wanted to clarify my position on my last post. It was a compliment to you BTW.

Paul

[Dionysios DiGregorio]

Thanks Paul;
I'm still unsure how my request for prayers and advice concerning the discernment of a monastic calling got turned into a discussion on the merits of the XA movement. None the less this is an interesting topic to me and one I'm compelled to respond to. I have many friends and aquaintences involved in the 12-step movement and regardless of their various religious affiliations they all share a common zeal for the 12-steps and the feeling that it's something everyone everywhere should take part in. I don't think that the 12 steps are for everyone, and I fail to see why it gets Orthodox support.

The twelve step movement is not Orthodox, it is not affiliated with the Orthodox Church and it is, in my opinion, absolutely unrelated to Orthodoxy. Just because the 12-step movement has some truth in it does not make it Orthodox. Whatever truth the 12-step movement may have, the Orthodox Church has the fullness of that truth. I've ordered this book along with others I bought and will consider what this man has to say, perhaps I will change my mind, but the fact will remain that the Canons of the Church forbid us to participate in non-Orthodox religious services and to engage in common prayer with non-Orthodox and with those who have been officially condemned as heretics by the Orthodox Church. My opinion is that the XA movement is not something to be encouraged anymore than going to any Protestant or Latin Church is encouraged. Yes the steps are fine, but we have these "tools" contained in the mysteries of the Church, we "take inventory" and "make amends" when we participate in repentance and confession. We can and should make confession and repentence often. If one is doing this then why would one need to also do it with the heretics and call it something else? This is something I don't undertand.

Now, I'm the worst sinner yet to post on this message board, and certainly no stranger to the evils of addicition, I would surely consider taking part in a group if it were Orthodox, but if it were Orthodox why would it use 12 steps taken from a Protestant group? The Orthodox Church have many "tools" that are in my opinion far better, for example the steps contained in "The Ladder of Divine Ascent".

Maybe, in some kind of way, I see monasticism as the answer to this question, or something that the Church offers to fulfil a need, but monasticism is thoroughly Orthodox, and the life prescribed by monastic rule is far better than anything offered by Bill and Dr. Bob, in my unworthy opinion.

I appreciate you making it clear that you do not wish to be confrontational; likewise I hope it's understood it's not my intention to be either confrontational or argumentative; however this is an interesting debate and I've bitten my tongue many many times when hearing this popular opinion expressed within Orthodox circles. My opinion does not seem to be the popular one, and I tend to not voice it wishing to not offend anyone. The illusion of anonymity provided by the internet does make it easier for me to state my opinion, however I also want to make it very clear that the last thing I want to do is offend you or anyone. I beg your forgiveness if I have.

[Effie Ganatsios]

Dionysios, you have been given some good advice. I'm in no position to give advice to anyone but can I share my own experiences?

My cousin is a monk at Iberon monastery on Mt. Athos (Aghios Oros, Holy Mountain). He knew he had a calling when he was very young. I don't know all the details, but I know he waited until he was older before deciding to leave his home and become a monk.

In my own case I wanted to become a nun when I was very young (as a lot of young girls do I believe) and even went to the trouble of telephoning a convent and asking for information a few years later (I was about 16 then, I think). Not knowing very much about religion in general - although I had read the New Testament so many times by this time that its a wonder my copy didn't fall apart - the convent I phoned was Roman Catholic and the nun who answered politely told me that I would have to convert - how naive and silly we are when we're young.

God directs our lives however and sent me my husband and I knew that my path was a different one to the one I had wanted until then.

Many, many years later I am still searching and reading and praying.

Trust in God.

Listen to the advice you have been given in the above messages, pray, find a spiritual father you respect and can love, and wait.

Effie

[Anthony]

I have no fear of being in an environment where the language is strange or the political climate dangerous; I have a knack for picking up whatever language is spoken, I might not speak it like a native but I've been able to get by. What I do worry about, as I get older, (50+) is my health, my energy level and skill set; none of which are great enough to make me of much value to anyone; that doesn't mean that I wouldn't do anything and everything within my means to contribute fully to any community, but where the spirit is willing there are certainly times when the flesh is weak.

This is a worry of mine too, should I ever be drawn in that direction. In fact I have been thinking of investing a bit of time in learning some skills that might be useful in such a context. I would be interested in any suggestions - any kinds of manual work which are traditionally associated with monasteries, and which don't take a huge amount of strength or experience.

[Owen Jones]

I suppose my primary point is that one discerns a calling, first and foremost, nearby, not far off. And so Dt. 30 becomes a good guide. And if we are searching for something far off, it is an indication that we have some interior work yet to do.

Regarding all of this debate about 12 steps of something or other, it strikes me that were I to do a formal scientific polling of beliefs and attitudes and behaviors of American Orthodox Christians, the results would be quite shocking. There would be plenty of heretical ideas and immoral behavior. I try not to busy my pretty little head with such things, as difficult as that is, since I would dearly love to spend my time in Church critiquing others. Gives me a sense of superiority I guess.

[Effie Ganatsios]

This is a worry of mine too, should I ever be drawn in that direction. In fact I have been thinking of investing a bit of time in learning some skills that might be useful in such a context. I would be interested in any suggestions - any kinds of manual work which are traditionally associated with monasteries, and which don't take a huge amount of strength or experience.


Anthony, Father Paisios was a carpenter and he carved various articles - crosses, scenes from the bible, etc. that he sold for a few pennies. He used this money to buy food. He didn't eat a lot and he always gave the money left over to others.

Monks also make prayer ropes, icons, and work in their gardens. In fact they do just about everything. Slowly, carefully and with their minds on God, which means that a physically weak person need have no fear of overtaxing his strength. Father Paisios was never really well because of something that happened when he was young, but he never paid much attention to his physical health and left it all to God.

How about bee keeping? Bees have always fascinated me - one of the wonders of nature.

Effie

[Anthony]

Thank you, Effie. Funnily enough, beekeeping had occurred to me too. The father of a friend of mine used to keep bees on Thasos as one of his hobbies, and occasionally I would get large jars of delicious pine honey (the real thing, not the stuff they sell to mainlanders).

But I suspect this too is something that develops with experience, rather than something I could learn on a course.

[Effie Ganatsios]

Anthony, I wouldn't like to experiment with bees........... can you imagine it? You would definitely need to attend a course on bee-keeping if you haven't any experience ......... most people used to learn this art - and it is an art - from their parents, grandparents but now they attend courses before they actually start.

I think I mentioned in an earlier post (a few years ago) that our block of land is surrounded on 3 sides by a small pine forest. A man used to bring his beehives here every summer (he hasn't done it the last two years for some reason) and he used to give me some honey each year. He told me that commercial honey has either sugar or glucose added to it and that it wasn't pure. Pine honey is dark and tasty. Thyme honey is supposed to be the best for our health. Wildflower and blossom honey (antho-meli) is the most delicious in my opinion. It's very light in colour and has a delicate flavour. I once asked him for some royal jelly but he told me that he can only harvest a small amount and he sends it to his son who is at university in England because he "knows" his son is not eating properly! We used to have very interesting conversations about honey when he came to take care of his bees (they need a lot of attention) and I also saw him on TV a couple of times lecturing about these wonderful insects - he really loves them!

Every spring the fruit growing districts here in north-west Greece (Naoussa and Veria) pay the bee keepers to transport their hives to their orchards for their fruit trees to be pollinated. Apparently there's a significant increase in fruit production when they do this.


Effie

[Anthony]

You do realize, Effie, that if I abandon my job and get on the next plane back to Greece, it is all going to be your fault...

Yes, it is the adulterating with sugar that I was referring to. Honey "exported" from Thasos to the mainland is notorious for it.

[Sunny]

Dear Dionysios,
Precious brother in Christ,
Thank you for sharing your heart-
I pray that the Lord will complete the work that He has begun in you and that you would be led according to His will. I pray for His peace and the blessedness of His presence in your life. I believe the longings that you have for Him are a gift of His love and mercy towards you. Do not lose heart!!

I identify with your struggle to find a holy community in which to dwell. I live in an unpleasant place and would love to be somewhere else, but I have no choice and must remain here for now. For whatever reason this is God's will for me. I hope you find your own place of peace in which to dwell.

Dear Effie,
What a wonderful bee story. I can only dream of forests and cool weather. Thank you so very much for sharing that!

May our God and Father have mercy on us all,
Sunny

[Effie Ganatsios]

Hi Sunny, at the moment it's hot, very hot weather and pine forests.............. we're in the middle of an unusual heat wave. The weather has gone crazy this year!

Effie

[Maria Mahoney]

Dear Dionysios,

It sounds like you have already been actively pursuing the answer to your question for several years now. It also sounds like you are haunted by many phantoms of "the worst that can happen" & fear kind... Like a man who is about to get married and who is having last minute doubts the night before the wedding. Monasticism/marriage are major decisions in life, with major consequences.

You said in your post, "I'm afraid that I might want to be a monk for the 'wrong' reasons."

I suppose the place to continue your search is to answer the question...Why do you want to become a monk?

Are you just afraid of being alone? Maybe you need to get comfortable with being alone with God and yourself first. I've heard it said that if you are not happy with yourself, you won't be happy with anyone else.

Would you be happy living with a bunch of guys who may not be the easiest people to live with? Would you be able to love them as you love yourself? Can you function in a community? Give what is asked? Be obedient to someone you may find is difficult? Do you have expectations that might not be met?

Do you have any alternate plans of what you might do with your life if you do not become a monastic? Do you live your life in a monastic way right now? What does your intuition tell you?

You have been to a lot of monasteries, spending alot of time there, perhaps you could ask one of the monks in one of the monasteries to be your spiritual father? Or maybe you could write to one of the monasteries on Mt. Athos and ask for a spiritual father from there?

Looking over your life, is it reasonable to believe that a monastic life is where you are meant to be? Is there any other way of life that would be as fulfilling to you?

In Christ,

Maria

[Effie Ganatsios]

Dionysis,

I think that when someone wants to become a monk they are required to go through a testing period - I think it might be a couple of years or until you are judged to be ready. I remember reading something about this : the other monks is the monastery need to approve your joining their community.

I will try and find some information about this.

Effie

[Effie Ganatsios]

Dionysis, here is some information that I found :

"Orthodox monasticism does not have religious orders as are found in the West, nor to they have Rules in the same sense as the Rule of St. Benedict. Rather, Eastern monastics study and draw inspiration from the writings of all the Church Fathers, probably the most influential of which are the Greater Asketikon and Lesser Asketikon of St. Basil the Great and the Philokalia, which was compiled by St. Nikodemos of the Holy Mountain and St. Makarios of Corinth.


Most communities are self-supporting, and the monastic’s daily life is usually divided into three parts: (a) communal worship in the monastery church (catholicon); (b) hard manual labour; and (c) private prayer, spiritual study, and rest when necessary. These activities are punctuated by dining, usually in a sizable dining hall known as a refectory, and traditionally communal style dining at elongated refectory tables.

It has been imagined by some that such a life is easy, but in fact, most novices do not last more than a few days under the strict and regimented lifestyle. Within the coenobitic community, all monks conform to a common way of living based on the traditions of that particular monastery. In struggling to attain this conformity, the monastic comes to realize his own shortcomings and is guided by his spiritual father in how to deal with them. Attaining this level of self-discipline is perhaps the most difficult and painful accomplishment any human being can make; but the end goal, to become like an angel on earth, is the reason monastics are held in such high esteem.

.....
Eastern monasticism is found in three distinct forms: anchoritic (a solitary living in isolation), coenobitic (a community living and worshiping together under the direct rule of an abbot or abbess), and the "middle way" between the two, known as the skete (a community of individuals living separately but in close proximity to one another, who come together only on Sundays and feast days, working and praying the rest of the time in solitude, but under the direction of an elder). One normally enters a coenobitic community first, and only after testing and spiritual growth would one go on to the skete or, for the most advanced, become a solitary anchorite. However, one is not necessarily expected to join a skete or become a solitary; most monastics remain in the cenobuim the whole of their lives. The form of monastic life an individual embraces is considered to be his vocation; that is to say, it is dependent upon the will of God, and is revealed by grace.


In general, Orthodox monastics have little or no contact with the outside world, including their own families. The purpose of the monastic life is union with God, the means is through leaving the world (i.e., the life of the passions). After tonsure, Orthodox monks and nuns are never permitted to cut their hair. The hair of the head and the beard remain uncut as a symbol of the vows they have taken, reminiscent of the Nazarites from the Old Testament. The Tonsure of monks is the token of a consecrated life, and symbolizes the cutting off of their self-will.
........
Novice lit. "one under obedience"—Those wishing to join a monastery begin their lives as novices. After coming to the monastery and living as a guest for not less than three days, the abbot or abbess may bless the candidate to become a novice. If a novice chooses to leave during the period of the novitiate, no penalty is incurred. He may also be asked to leave at any time if his behaviour does not conform to the monastic life, or if the superior discerns that he is not called to monasticism. When the abbot or abbess deems the novice ready, he is asked if he wishes to join the monastery. Some, out of humility, will choose to remain novices all their lives.

Every stage of the monastic life must be entered into voluntarily."

[Maria Mahoney]

Dear Dionysios,

On Divine Eros by Elder Porphyrios:


"What we should say rather is: ‘My Christ, whatever Your love dictates; it is sufficient for me to live within Your love.’
As for myself poor soul… what can I say… I’m very weak. I haven’t managed to love Christ so very fervently and for my soul to long for Him. I feel that I have a long way to go. I haven’t arrived at where I want to be; I don’t experience this love. But I’m not discouraged. I trust in the love of God. I say to Christ: ‘I know I’m not worthy. Send me wherever Your love wishes. That’s what I desire, that’s what I want. During my life I always worshipped You.’"



Wherever we are...whatever life we are given, we need to be content and seek to know what it is we are to do in the place and time of now.

In Christ,
Maria

[Peter Farrington]

Thanks for that Effie, I found it very helpful myself.

One thing. Novice surely comes from the Latin 'novus' and has the sense of 'new', someone who is new or is entering into a form of life as something new.

Peter

[Effie Ganatsios]

Maria wrote : "Wherever we are...whatever life we are given, we need to be content and seek to know what it is we are to do in the place and time of now."

Exactly. The best advice possible.

Effie

[Effie Ganatsios]

You're absolutely right, Peter. That's what the word novice literally means.

It can also mean a person who has entered a religious order, but who is on probation before taking final vows.

In greek we say dokimos monachos - which translates as cadet (trial) monk.

Sounds funny in english, doesn't it.

Effie

[Dionysios DiGregorio]

Thanks Effie, Maria, Sunny, Herman, Paul and Seraphim; and everyone that posted and messaged me concerning this particular concern of mine. I've come a long ways since posting this, and feel firm in my conviction yet not rushed or at odds at all. I have been making a plan for myself and will take it one day at a time. With God's mercy and if it so happens that it is His will, I have no doubt that it will all work out.

The very immediate future my hands will be full getting my transportation together so that I can start making regular visits to the closest Father Ephraim monastery (which is only 30 miles away); I've already spoke to them on the telephone (I may have mentioned I've already stayed out there a couple of times over the years) and more exciting yet I'm hoping/planning to make a trip to Mt. Athos sometime between Pascha and this time next year.

On the off-topic subject we touched on concerning the "12-step movement", though I stll have my convictions, I did buy and have been reading the book Paul mentioned or suggested "Steps of Transformation" - it's added to my knowledge and contributed to a slightly different take on the subject; while it might not be for everyone I can see that the organization might be very good for many. As I said before it was never my intention to offend anyone or appear arrogant, I surely don't know it all; I will say that I'm enjoying the book quite a bit and I'm glad you suggested it.

[Effie Ganatsios]

Thanks Effie, Maria, Sunny, Herman, Paul and Seraphim; and everyone that posted and messaged me concerning this particular concern of mine. I've come a long ways since posting this, and feel firm in my conviction yet not rushed or at odds at all. I have been making a plan for myself and will take it one day at a time. With God's mercy and if it so happens that it is His will, I have no doubt that it will all work out.

The very immediate future my hands will be full getting my transportation together so that I can start making regular visits to the closest Father Ephraim monastery (which is only 30 miles away); I've already spoke to them on the telephone (I may have mentioned I've already stayed out there a couple of times over the years) and more exciting yet I'm hoping/planning to make a trip to Mt. Athos sometime between Pascha and this time next year.

On the off-topic subject we touched on concerning the "12-step movement", though I stll have my convictions, I did buy and have been reading the book Paul mentioned or suggested "Steps of Transformation" - it's added to my knowledge and contributed to a slightly different take on the subject; while it might not be for everyone I can see that the organization might be very good for many. As I said before it was never my intention to offend anyone or appear arrogant, I surely don't know it all; I will say that I'm enjoying the book quite a bit and I'm glad you suggested it.


Dionysi, I hope everything goes well for you.

Effie

[Irene]

"I was taught that monasticism is not a "vocation," or a "calling" in the Western sense. It is a particular desire to leave the world when one begins to realize that he does not fit into the world around him" ...Father Averky

06-03-2003, 02:47 AM Thread "Want to become a monk... " If anyone's interested, Father Averky talks about some of the struggles he had adapting to the monastic life and after a lot of struggle the blessings...

[Helen M.]

How does one know they are called to monastic life? What can I do?

In Christ,
Dionysios

Hello Dion (may I call you that?)

I wanted to be a nun but I think my cousins's story is more appropriate here. He got the desire to become a monk when he started going to church at 30 years old.

He read some Orthodox books by Holy fathers who were monks and wrote the books for monks. He loved the books and fell in love with God and the Monastic calling.

He tried a couple spiritual fathers and new monasteries but he was hated by the future abbots. He found monastery life easy for him. He said it was like finding an oasis in a desert. If only he had a spiritual father there who was not such a baby in his emotions.

Finally, after years of trying, he found that his sacrifice to God was to live as a celebate outside of a monastery. What makes things harder is that women find him very attractive and never leave him alone. Not even in church! I have seen them move away from their usual place when they see him and he sometimes has 6 women standing close enough to touch him. He can't even do the sign of the cross without touching one of them.

Outside the church, married women interrupt all his converations and he does not even know them. All he knows is that they approach him only when their husbands are inside the church and they are outside.

Everywhere else he goes people treat him as an enemy. It is not always that way but it is too much. When he does something good for someone, they do something bad in return.

He has come to terms with this as his suffering for Christ. He prays and reads the Bible every day. This tells him that Jesus Christ suffered like this daily and He told His deciples that if He, their master and Lord suffered, then how much more should his followers suffer as well?

Pray, pray, pray for guidance in God's Will. In these latter days there are not many monasteries left compared to before. Those that are good are almost impossible to find because like my cousin says, "Living in a monastery is for me, a holiday from a world full of temptations."

Maybe you feel miserable for the same reason my cousin does. I have heard something very good about Fr Ephraim and his monastery. I don't know if it is the same one, but my guess is yes.

Maybe you should take a break and stay at his monastery for a trial period to see if it is God's will. Otherwise do like my cousin has done for more than twice as long as you have. He is much older than me. even as old as my mother.

Do not despair. Suffer for Christ and He will share it with you, making it easier and sometimes joyous for you to willingly accept this burden.

Sincerely, Helen

[Denys Kosovsky]

How does one know they are called to monastic life?

Hey Dionysios!

We are in the same boat, we have the same name and the same calling!
I want to to be a monk too and as soon as my parents are taken care of and I'm ready, off I go.

Seriously, I'm going to make this brief. If you haven't got the strength then you have to get it somewhere else. You've got to find a spiritual father immediately. Go to Mt Athos as soon as you can. I think you can make it there in the autumn, possibly summer.

Read My Life in Christ by St John of Kronstadt. You have no idea how much it loses in translation but it's still the best thing around. Remember you need a priest/father quite badly now and he was all of that.

You have my prayers.

Denys

[Mina Demian]

Dear Dionysios,

Monasticism is always an attractive prospect to anyone because of the immediacy of its calling.

Although I'm not a trained or qualified psychologist or psychiatrist, I tend to interpret things through this lens.

A lot of people who desire the monastic life often want to escape. And the motives for escape is the key to answering your question and solving your predicament.

The hagiography of our saints always put it in a light that they desired to escape in the name of Christ. And I'm glad this slant was put in because it teaches us a very important virtue about the Christian life. Isn't that after all the point behind hagiography?

In our times though, things are different. Life is hard. When sin strikes us, there is little mercy. Temptation is everywhere: our homes, our workplaces, our churches and inside our minds and hearts.

If I'm driving down an alley and I see a shady looking group of guys, what is the first thing I think of? Escaping. If my life is so difficult and everyday I go to bed with my heart laden with darkness, what do I always think of? Escape.

In Interpretation of Dreams, Freud talks about how children don't always understand death in the way death is. Children seem to think of death as long-term separation or going on a very long, permanent trip. As we develop into adults, I think this infantile desire for "death" does not really change. We always want to escape. If as kids we wanted to 'die', adults choose their 'death' by medicating their escape: through substances, people, ideas, and consumption.

At the very depth of the monastic calling is a unquenchable desire for God for who He is, not for His clothes. In my Egyptian Orthodox tradition, many wise bishops and abbots have taught young men and women desiring the monastic life to first be soaring successes in the world in everything, reach the absolute zenith, and then leave it all for the world. That way, you prove to yourself that you are after the life of monks not to medicate death or failure, but because you desired it in all honesty and dedication.

The darkest times of the Orthodox church in Egypt is when monasteries would take in monks who had nothing in life: no education, no career prospects or trades they could live off, and no hopes for anything in any way. Thus, these monks would come into the monasteries for all the wrong reasons. This wasn't too far off; I refer to the early 19th and 20th centuries of Egyptian history.

After all that I have written, I hope you do not think I have made any assumptions about you. I am just offering what I know and have seen with people in similar situations to yourself.

Go into the depth of yourself and find what is the motive. Do you want to 'die' from this world? Or do you want to die to this world for the sake of the Life of the world?

[Dionysios DiGregorio]

Dear Dionysios,

Monasticism is always an attractive prospect to anyone because of the immediacy of its calling.

Although I'm not a trained or qualified psychologist or psychiatrist, I tend to interpret things through this lens.

A lot of people who desire the monastic life often want to escape. And the motives for escape is the key to answering your question and solving your predicament.

The hagiography of our saints always put it in a light that they desired to escape in the name of Christ. And I'm glad this slant was put in because it teaches us a very important virtue about the Christian life. Isn't that after all the point behind hagiography?

In our times though, things are different. Life is hard. When sin strikes us, there is little mercy. Temptation is everywhere: our homes, our workplaces, our churches and inside our minds and hearts.

If I'm driving down an alley and I see a shady looking group of guys, what is the first thing I think of? Escaping. If my life is so difficult and everyday I go to bed with my heart laden with darkness, what do I always think of? Escape.

In Interpretation of Dreams, Freud talks about how children don't always understand death in the way death is. Children seem to think of death as long-term separation or going on a very long, permanent trip. As we develop into adults, I think this infantile desire for "death" does not really change. We always want to escape. If as kids we wanted to 'die', adults choose their 'death' by medicating their escape: through substances, people, ideas, and consumption.

At the very depth of the monastic calling is a unquenchable desire for God for who He is, not for His clothes. In my Egyptian Orthodox tradition, many wise bishops and abbots have taught young men and women desiring the monastic life to first be soaring successes in the world in everything, reach the absolute zenith, and then leave it all for the world. That way, you prove to yourself that you are after the life of monks not to medicate death or failure, but because you desired it in all honesty and dedication.

The darkest times of the Orthodox church in Egypt is when monasteries would take in monks who had nothing in life: no education, no career prospects or trades they could live off, and no hopes for anything in any way. Thus, these monks would come into the monasteries for all the wrong reasons. This wasn't too far off; I refer to the early 19th and 20th centuries of Egyptian history.

After all that I have written, I hope you do not think I have made any assumptions about you. I am just offering what I know and have seen with people in similar situations to yourself.

Go into the depth of yourself and find what is the motive. Do you want to 'die' from this world? Or do you want to die to this world for the sake of the Life of the world?

Yes, hehe... you can call me Dion - people call me Dion, Denny or Denis all of which are fine thanks.
Thank you for your post; it's thought provoking and very close to my own thoughts and I'm not at all offended. I believe I understand what you're saying and tend to agree in fact I agree whole heartedly. I'm not interested in monastic life for selfish reasons of finding an easier softer way - at least I don't feel I am, in fact I hope it's the opposite that motivates me. I expect a life of struggle no matter my path, and tend to think that a monastic life is as God wills; but I won't pretend to have any special gift of discernment at this time because I don't; I'm not making any decisions insofar as this is concerned. Right now I'm working, putting one foot in front of the other and just trying to live how I believe I'm meant to live.

What I am planning to do is to find someone to be a spiritual father to me; I live about 70 miles from Holy Archangels monastery, have been there many times and spent several days at a time there, but in the last few years my trips have been sparse in fact I've been lucky to make it out there at all lately - still I know several of the Fathers by name and they always remember me - transportation has been the main hold up for me... but last month I bought a car and my main reason was so I could have reliable transportation to the monastery and back. I hope to begin making regular trips out there soon. With input from a spiritual father I can make decisions that are blessed. I'm in no hurry but neither do I want to drag my feet; I feel it's my duty to do what's before me; and that happens to be the best that I can do most of the time.

Yes I'm guilty of engaging in distractions and wanting to 'escape' reality in various ways; though I'm currently sober I did struggle with alcoholism and addiction, I do still suffer from depression and want to escape at times; but having spent a couple of years as a novice and having visited monasteries throughout Egypt and the Holy Land I have a good idea of what monastic life is and is not; I don't think of it as an easy life by any stretch of the imagination; though I do sometimes think it might be a lifestyle I'm more naturally suited for I also know that you can never run from that internal struggle; in fact when you're in a monks cell it becomes more pronounced.

Thanks for your prayers. My only real desire is that God's will be done.

[Alice]

WOW, much food for thought in Helen's story about her cousin,

and, also to this quote from Mina's post:


"
At the very depth of the monastic calling is a unquenchable desire for God for who He is, not for His clothes. In my Egyptian Orthodox tradition, many wise bishops and abbots have taught young men and women desiring the monastic life to first be soaring successes in the world in everything, reach the absolute zenith, and then leave it all for the world. That way, you prove to yourself that you are after the life of monks not to medicate death or failure, but because you desired it in all honesty and dedication. "

[Dionysios DiGregorio]

Hey Dionysios!

We are in the same boat, we have the same name and the same calling!
I want to to be a monk too and as soon as my parents are taken care of and I'm ready, off I go.

Seriously, I'm going to make this brief. If you haven't got the strength then you have to get it somewhere else. You've got to find a spiritual father immediately. Go to Mt Athos as soon as you can. I think you can make it there in the autumn, possibly summer.

Read My Life in Christ by St John of Kronstadt. You have no idea how much it loses in translation but it's still the best thing around. Remember you need a priest/father quite badly now and he was all of that.

You have my prayers.

Denys

Thank you Denys
I have a copy and I am reading it again now.
I appreciate your prayers and advice; I think you are right and that's just what I'm doing.