View Full Version : Canonization of the saints
Celinda Grace
18-06-2007, 12:34 AM
One of the things that bothers me about both the Orthodox and Catholic church is the restricted use of the word 'saint' to refer to some special class of believer. Consistently I find 'saint' in Scripture, both Old and New Testament to refer to all members of God's covenant people.
Why then are certain people canonized as saints and what does the process of canonization involve?
I do see the apostles calling themselves bond-servants as a signification that they have abandoned all to Christ. I wonder where the terminology changed?
Rev 11:18
"And the nations were enraged, and Your wrath came, and the time came for the dead to be judged, and the time to reward Your bond-servants the prophets and the saints and those who fear Your name, the small and the great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth."
In this verse which is the only one that really gives a list, I interpret 'those who fear your name' as those outside the church who still fear God.
Any patristic and historical perspective on this would be appreciated.
Herman Blaydoe
18-06-2007, 02:00 AM
The Orthodox Church, out of the many witnesses to the Faith, recognizes certain individuals as particularly worthy of emulation. We call these individuals "saints". We don't call people saints to their faces in their lives, we don't want to subject them to the temptation of prelest, but our priest often begins his sermon with "Servants of God, called to be saints...".
As to Orthodoxy, canonization is simply the official proclamation that this person has lived a saintly life as revealed by the Holy Spirit. It is not nearly so formal as the process of the Roman Catholic Church. I will leave it to others to cover the more intricate details I guess.
Celinda Grace
18-06-2007, 02:43 AM
recognizes certain individuals as particularly worthy of emulation
Herman, be honest is this actually the attitude you see? Read the boards here. The saints are seen as demi-gods almost. They are put in some super-human class of existence by many, many people in the OC.
This is a major point of contention of mine where I see the attitude of the Protestant church as much healthier then that nurtured in the OC.
Somewhere there is a corrupt understanding of some Christian doctrine and I suspect it stems from years worth of Eastern cultural influence. I happen to believe that western ideas of equality are an improvement over class systems, because invariably a conception of Christainity in terms of class rather then in terms of Body leads to all sorts of spiritual diseases -not least of which is the unhealthy struggle to balance between pride and false humility.
I find in the PC that this whole struggle, while not entirely escaped, is greatly diminished. Each person simply accepts the other on the same level as oneself. We are all stiving toward the same goal, just on different places in the journey. Yes we ought to emulate those who are more mature then us, but more mature does not mean in a separate class. We each have different gifts and abilities for the service of the body, and some hold positions in the church that deserve greater respect -all this ought to be recognized.
Nowhere though is there any tendency to exalt someone to a position that tempts people to look at someone else as intrinsically different.
Mary said on the other thread,
They are in a different class. Pulling them down to our level or putting ourselves up as equal to them, is a result of pride in our own hearts.
When we see things in terms of class, we feel like it is prideful to strive after where they are. We ought not cross class boundaries after all. I should not strive to be royalty when I am not because this is a lie about who I am.
When we see things in terms of maturity, then we can strive to imitate our parents without pride and without pride recognize where we are growing up and where we are still immature.
Paul Cowan
18-06-2007, 05:35 AM
http://orthodoxwiki.org/Saint
This is very brief but is a beginning to a much bigger picture of "a saint".
Dear Celinda,
Forgive my bluntness, but you must be kidding?
This is a major point of contention of mine where I see the attitude of the Protestant church as much healthier then that nurtured in the OC.
Who are you or anyone to voice a 21st century critique of something the Church has held as right for over 1700 years. The entire post you wrote is one of basic PC mentality that may never understand or comprehend the fullness of the EO church.
I have these same arguments with my family. This country has been so engrained with PC ideas that it cannot fathom anything bigger than "me and my Jesus in the basement" attitude. I will decide for myself. I don't like this church anymore they hurt my feelings or they said I was a sinner, I will go over there. If it does not fit in with 21st century then it is out dated and needs to 'get with the times'. The idea of asking a dead person to pray for me is ridiculous they are dead. Mary was just another sinner like me. She has no place in history other than giving birth to Jesus then she slept with Joseph like any other married couple. I'm not going to kiss that piece of wood and commit idolatory. cross myself? I don't think so. Pray someone elses prayers? I can come up with my own.
Each person simply accepts the other on the same level as oneself.
That's the whole problem. God forbid I should be seen as higher or equal to anyone else. God forbid I should make anyone less than me. We are not all equal. I am the worst of sinners. I will prove it via a PM if you like. (I hope not though).
We are not all the same. The Saints that went before us were not "saints" while they were alive. They would not have stood for it. They all fled from public fame. They also saw themselves as sinners. It was God who saw them more than they were and who showed them to us.
Somewhere there is a corrupt understanding of some Christian doctrine and I suspect it stems from years worth of Eastern cultural influence.
No, It started around 890? ad when the Western Orthodox started thinking and acting differently from the other Patriarchial heads and only got worse in 1517 when Luther nailed his thesis to the church door. From there it really took off with wild and crazy ideas and notions that have 500 years later resulted in some 22,000 western thinking groups calling themselves Christian.
I do agree with what you said about maturity versus class system. I don't see a class system at work other than a "vernacular" description. I do see all of us striving to be Christ-like which we do by following living examples, called saints.
Paul
Celinda, I used the word 'class' because you used it:
In other words in my view there is in the Orthodox Church a tendency to have what I see as an unhealthy attitude toward the saints that sets them up as being in a different class then the rest of us.
There are no classes. There is the Head - Christ - and there is the Body - the Church. We are all human, saints included, and we'll never be God. The Saints would be the first to admit that they're in desparate need of a Savior. Reading some of their prayers of repentance will give you a good idea of how they saw themselves, in the light of God's holiness. I'll try to find some links for you to browse... they are amazing prayers.
When we see things in terms of class, we feel like it is prideful to strive after where they are. We ought not cross class boundaries after all. I should not strive to be royalty when I am not because this is a lie about who I am.
What exactly do you believe it means to 'be like Christ'? Christ says of himself:
"Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls." Mt 11:29
The Apostle Paul on Christ:
6Who, being in very nature[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=57&chapter=2&verse=6&end_verse=8&version=31&context=context#fen-NIV-29382a)] God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=57&chapter=2&verse=6&end_verse=8&version=31&context=context#fen-NIV-29383b)] of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death—
even death on a cross! Phil 2:6-8
The Gospel of Mark 9:35:
Sitting down, Jesus called the Twelve and said, "If anyone wants to be first, he must be the very last, and the servant of all."
Ok - there's tons more - but that's enough for now... But Where exactly do you find Christ Or his disciples demanding to be treated like royalty? Of all the people in the world, Christ had the right to demand that he be treated like the King that He rightfully is. But he didn't. He is humble. Imitating Christ means, striving to become humble... not striving to become the royalty that I'm not.
I'm not royalty, and neither are you. We are servants, but in refusing to serve one another, in demanding equality, we are demanding to be treated as royalty!
The saints whom we honor as saints, wouldn't be Christlike if they have been 'sainted' for lording it over us ordinary folks. Read about them... they ran from being recognized! They hid from people so they wouldn't be honored. They fled from pride like I flee from snakes! I do not flee honor like they do. I like being patted on the back and being told that I've done something well. My pride likes such food. They knew how to flee it!
For all the saints that we know about, there are probably hundreds and hundreds that no one knows about. But we like the spotlight. We like to be heard so we get online and say whatever we're thinking. Do I have anything worthwhile to say? Hardly! And yet I talk as if I'm a teacher! I'm not good enough to be a student to one of our great saints!
Herman, be honest is this actually the attitude you see? Read the boards here. The saints are seen as demi-gods almost. They are put in some super-human class of existence by many, many people in the OC.
How far does one have to go to get half way to becoming God? The distance between us and the Saints is unfathomable. But the distance between the Saints and God is infinitely more unfathomable, because God is infinite! No one is ever going to become as humble as Christ. No one can love as much as God. This is where I come to the end of my chattering, for I've stepped into a place I am totally clueless about. All I know for sure is, that, no one can become the fourth person of the Trinity...
God is much bigger than we gave Him credit for as protestants. He's not threatened by our honoring His Children. In fact, He did say, that whatever we did for the least of our brothers, we've done it to Him. So, if we honor the saints, we've honored Him.
If your best friend came to visit, with her/his children and parents, would you welcome only your friend and ignore your friend's family? In fact, the opposite tends to happen. You're more familiar with your friend, but you treat your friend's parent's with a great deal of respect, and you treat your friend's children, better than you do your own. What happened to equality??
It's not a matter of class. Any of the Saints whom you say we treat as Demi-Gods, if they were here, wouldn't bat an eye if they were asked to get on their knees and wash your feet and mine. In fact, they would feel like they'd been honored. Would I be willing to do the same? Oh, I'd have no trouble washing their feet, for I know they are saints... but would I was the feet of someone who's not greater than I am? I dont' have to search far. When I'm annoyed at someone in my own family, I don't go out of my way to serve them! How much less would I be willing to serve my enemy!
You've read a lot, so I hesitate to ask... but how much have you read of the life of the saints? On www.oca.com (http://www.oca.com), you'll find the lives of the saints comemorated each day. Another great source is the Prolog from Ohrid: http://www.westsrbdio.org/prolog/my.html? and I'm sure there's many more. Please, read about them. There are tons of treasures there and you'll find your confusion about imitating them disappearing.
I've been orthodox for just a year. In this one year, the biggest lesson that I've had to learn is that I am not as important as others. I do not have to be listened to, I do not have to be understood. I do not have to have someone share my pain and weep with me. BUT I do need to listen, I do need to strive to understand, I do need to weep with and share the pain of others. That's what it means to imitate Christ who died for us while we were still sinners.
He was loving us while we tortured him to death. The saints have done the same. I have not been tortured. I have never been threatened by death. Will I be able to love someone who tortures me to death and pray for their forgiveness? Even harder, will I be able to forgive and pray for someone who is torturing my children to death? Read about the mother Sophia, who did just that while her three beautiful daughters were killed before her eyes.
Very few of our saints were treated like royalty. When we try to imitate them, it's knowing that we're in danger of being treated like most of them - like animals being led to the slaughter as some are being slaughtered while you and I sit safely in our homes chatting on the internet.
In Christ,
Mary.
PS: It's almost midnight, and I have just written what I know. Please Fr David and Fr Rapheal and others, don't let me get away with saying anything that is not in line with orthodoxy. Thank you.
Andrew
18-06-2007, 06:00 AM
Saint simply means "holy." I would argue that the path to holiness was followed to a much greater degree in the early church, thus producing more saints under martyrdom and whatnot.
We Orthodox do not see the saints as a "class" of people up on a pedestal. "Sainthood" is an ontological state of being... it is holiness. Look at the Greek, or Slavonic, or Latin. Agios means holy, just as Sveta or Sanctus. It is divinization, theosis, being as Christ. Transfigured humanity. The saints on the calendar are that; they have been officially recognized by a synod of Bishops of a local Church and are put up on the calendar for official feast days and whatnot. There are thousands upon thousands upon thousands of saints that no one has heard of that will be glorified in front of all people at the end of time. There are known saints that are not officially recognized on the calendar (yet), like the Elders Joseph, Sophrony, Porphyrios, Paisios, Sampson, Ioann Krestiankin, etc. There are saints among us within America too that are still living, as there are throughout the world. But we are honest with what a saint is. They are holy godmen. Protestantism waters down what holiness actually is.
So you are correct in many senses in that we view these saints as "demi-gods"... I think more correctly deified humans. They partake of divinity and He has transfigured them. They are growing towards everything Christ is, by grace. They are beyond time, space, and our own limited ideas of love and grace. Truly, they are to be honored, venerated, and prayed to. They partake of Christ, and where he is, they are too... except within the Essence of God. But anyways.
As my spiritual father hammers into us day after day, we are all called to be saints. We are all called to be like Christ in every single way. There is no second class divinity. But as our beloved father Elder Sophrony says over and over again, this is a path of much suffering.
Paul Cowan
18-06-2007, 06:09 AM
Truly, they are to be honored, venerated, and prayed to.
Dear Anthony,
I am asking this question out of ignorance on my part and not from picking at what you said. I really don't understand this question...
Do we pray to a saint so he/she will pray to Christ? Or do we pray through a saint so he/she will pray to Christ.
This may be nitpicky but I ask this because of my PC upbringing and understand how we venerate and honor saints, but I was under the impression we prayed through them and not to them for intercession before the Lord. And if this is the case, can you or anyone demonstrate a short example? I get clouded even reading the service books. My enlightenment is much anticipated. :)
Paul
Dear Anthony,
I am asking this question out of ignorance on my part and not from picking at what you said. I really don't understand this question...
Do we pray to a saint so he/she will pray to Christ? Or do we pray through a saint so he/she will pray to Christ.
This may be nitpicky but I ask this because of my PC upbringing and understand how we venerate and honor saints, but I was under the impression we prayed through them and not to them for intercession before the Lord. And if this is the case, can you or anyone demonstrate a short example? I get clouded even reading the service books. My enlightenment is much anticipated. :)
Paul
Dear Paul,
In addition to what Andrew (?) might post as a response, please take a look at this (http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/invocationofsaints.aspx). I do not know the author, but it seems that he also converted, so maybe you can find an answer, or two, since your questions might have been similar.
Paul Cowan
18-06-2007, 06:44 AM
Thanks Nina,
So if I read the article right, intercession is praying through the saints and invocation is praying to the saints? You know me and words with more then 3 syllables. :0
Antonios
18-06-2007, 06:48 AM
Dear friends,
Here are some links about saints.
What we Believe (http://www.fatheralexander2.org/booklets/english/saints_a_coniaris.htm)
about (http://www.fatheralexander2.org/booklets/english/saints_a_coniaris.htm)
the Saints (http://www.fatheralexander2.org/booklets/english/saints_a_coniaris.htm)
By Anthony M. Coniaris (http://www.fatheralexander2.org/booklets/english/saints_a_coniaris.htm)
Our Intercessors (http://www.fatheralexander2.org/booklets/english/saints_b_alexander_e.htm)
in Heaven (http://www.fatheralexander2.org/booklets/english/saints_b_alexander_e.htm)
Bishop Alexander (Mileant) (http://www.fatheralexander2.org/booklets/english/saints_b_alexander_e.htm)
Thanks Nina,
So if I read the article right, intercession is praying through the saints and invocation is praying to the saints? You know me and words with more then 3 syllables. :0
How fast you read it!!!! Oh c'mon! Like I would believe you are simple. :) These are complicated questions for me. I never learned such things. I was just told: Pray to Saint such and such! Period. Total obedience to those who knew better than I i.e. my grandparents and so on. I never asked. Just marveled.
You now like children come into my life with all these questions. :) Yes I think you are right. I think that is what Andrew meant also. I and many I know also often say: 'pray to that Saint!' When we speak like this it is a given that they are there to intercede for us in front of God, because by being holy people they have boldness in front of Him.
Language is a strange thing and in most cases accounts for miscommunication. :) After baptizing my godson I instructed his nominal Muslim mother (parents) to do certain things for him at home since he was a baby and could not. She was listening so attentively like the life of her child depended on those instructions. One of the things I asked her to do was to light a candle in front of an icon of Panagia and baby Christ. In that language, we Orthodox say "Light the icon", or "I am going to light the icon", which is routine expression/language and very well understood between the Orthodox.
The next day the mother of my godson asked to meet me. I greeted her with a smile and I noticed that she greeted me with a very worried look on her face! "Nina, are you sure there was need to light that icon? My husband has lived with some Orthodox in his neighborhood and he told me that I was wrong because he never saw them burn icons!!!???" Needless to say I blushed so much realizing what had happened. She literally had lit on fire the icon! :) I hugged her and we both had a good laugh after I explained to her. Needless to say it was all my fault because out of habit (also I was a teen) I had neglected giving more precise instructions.
Hope you keep me in check. :)
For me it is astounding to encounter such questions like yours dear Celinda, because I believe with all my heart and entire being such things of my faith. I guess it is something that passes down with the milk of the mother, or genes, or I do not know what... Or maybe my deceased Orthodox ancestors have a special boldness in front of God and pray for me to be who I am. Although I think you are very blessed, because God has called you and you are here inquiring about Orthodoxy.
If I did not e-know you Celinda from monachos and if I did not know of your quest for the Truth, I would have felt very offended, because I am not used to such comments in the country where I live now (especially from a very well educated and erudite woman like you).
However since I know Celinda's purpose (for learning more), I do not take it as an offense, but as the soul's desperate cry for help. I hope I can help you dear Celinda with some answers, but I have to think some more about things that heart pumps in and out with blood and that exist in all the cells of my being and without which my soul would perish instantly.
I also think this is very positive because it prepares me for other encounters with people who might not know what Saints are. Not only it encourages me to express in words things that pertain to the soul, but also it gives me a wonderful opportunity and pleasure to read all the marvelous things that the friends who have embraced Orthodoxy write. It amazes me! As I have previously said, it is not a great achievement to be born in an Orthodox family and be Orthodox. The converts are the real heroes I believe (I can not even imagine having an apologetic discussion with my family about Orthodoxy, like you Paul mentioned somewhere here). :) So yes, dear Celinda, do not stop asking, so we both can hear more beautiful things about the Orthodox of our era. :)
Dear Celinda,
I was almost in bed, but the scales fell out of my eyes and I saw something, a little bit clearer than I did an hour ago. Thank you so much for causing me to ponder and understand deeper! I hope God blesses you abundantly by giving you the courage to drop all that you have gained and throw yourself into the One True Church!
What did I learn? Just something I might have learned a long time ago if I'd paid attention:
6Who, being in very nature[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=57&chapter=2&verse=6&end_verse=8&version=31&context=context#fen-NIV-29382a)] God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=57&chapter=2&verse=6&end_verse=8&version=31&context=context#fen-NIV-29383b)] of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death—
even death on a cross! Phil 2:6-8
I never thought to think about Christ's equality with God as a parallel to my equality with my peers. I say peers, because in most cultures, you do treat your elders with a bit more respect than your peers, even if it is just external.
Anyways - if I were to imitate Christ - then it isn't my inequality or equality with God that I need to consider, but my equality with my peers. I am in very nature, like those of my generation, so I should not consider this equality something to be grasped. In other words, I should treat you, Nina, my friends, my sister and brother, etc - as greater than myself.
And since you still see the saints as equal to us - for you, that would mean, you treat the saints as greater than yourself. You treat Mary, the mother of Christ, as greater than yourself. It doesn't matter if they are equal to us or not. We dont' treat them as if they were. WE don't demand our rights, we give up our rights.
So, I thank you... for clearing my vision further. This week, I will look at everyone around me, identify who it is that I think I'm equal to, or better than, and try to figure out how I can make myself nothing, and become a servant and humble myself.
In Christ,
Mary.
Celinda Grace
18-06-2007, 02:46 PM
Thanks for the articles.
Aside from the more general use of the word saint to refer to all members of the Church, Holy Tradition also ascribes Saint as a title to particular persons whose lives have shown most clearly what it means to follow Jesus Christ. These saints are popularly glorified (canonized) by the Church, often in the modern era with a formal service to recognize and affirm the veneration of them by the faithful.
Ok here is the false dichotomy that I see, All of you are splitting, as if in two separate categories, the general Biblical use of the word saint and the use of the word saint in tradition.
All of us are involved in the process of deification, i.e., becoming like God in Christ. The saints are those who, having advanced closer to that goal, can help the rest of us through their example and prayers.
Under the assumptions and mindset that I see here you are all drawing some line where suddenly someone is a saint, but I see things in process. There is no line there is no separate class. We are all on a journey and some are farther ahead then others.
Let me make this observation
We are saved - our salvation is held in heaven for us. It is true in eternity.
We are being saved -we are in the process of bringing eternity into time.
In glorifying the saints' spiritual struggle and victory, the Church is in fact glorifying God's work of salvation, the work of the Holy Spirit; it experiences the salvation already accomplished in them
We will be saved completely only at the consumation of all things in Christ.
The PC's vision is very much in the eternal. We recognize the inheritance that exists in eternity as being ours already.
Eph 3:4-6 4But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ by grace you have been saved), 6and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, Even while we are dead in our transgressions we are seated with Him in the heavenly places. Do you see how he recognizes our eternal state as being true of us even while we are still working out that truth?
Admittedly, the PC also tends to be blind as to what the lived experience of the eternal is.
But the OC's vision tends to degenerate into the entirely experiential. And this it seems to me is what the problem here is. There is no recognition of the Biblical definition of saint as one consecrated to God as a member of the Church. there is no recognition of what is already true in eternity.
They are growing towards everything Christ is, by grace. They are beyond time, space, and our own limited ideas of love and grace. Truly, they are to be honored, venerated, and prayed to. They partake of Christ, and where he is, they are too..
This refers to all of us. In Christ each is beyond time and space, each has an eternal soul. We are saints, we are becoming saints, we will only be completed saints at the final consummation of all things. There is no separate class.
Nina, Thank you for having the grace to recognize that I am honestly seeking for truth and not simply trying to assert some PC position.
Paul, I would appreciate some recognition that I am not your family. If you read my others posts here you will see that I do not unconditionally hold to a Protestant position.
Mary,
Anyways - if I were to imitate Christ - then it isn't my inequality or equality with God that I need to consider, but my equality with my peers. I am in very nature, like those of my generation, so I should not consider this equality something to be grasped. In other words, I should treat you, Nina, my friends, my sister and brother, etc - as greater than myself.
And since you still see the saints as equal to us - for you, that would mean, you treat the saints as greater than yourself. You treat Mary, the mother of Christ, as greater than yourself. It doesn't matter if they are equal to us or not. We dont' treat them as if they were. WE don't demand our rights, we give up our rights.
YES! This is very much the approach I was trying to get across. It is a recognition of ourselves as the same in nature, but as living out an attitude of service to all. The whole concept of bond-servant that I mention above is one who has given up all rights to himself. In Roman culture it was a slave who had voluntarily become a slave for life and given up his right to his own freedom and will.
Herman Blaydoe
18-06-2007, 02:58 PM
Herman, be honest is this actually the attitude you see? Read the boards here. The saints are seen as demi-gods almost. They are put in some super-human class of existence by many, many people in the OC.
Well, I am trying to be honest, and I hope you permit me to continue to be honest. And honestly, I had a similar misconception as you when I was first learning about Orthodoxy. But then I learned that the Protestants have simply lost the whole concept of what it means to be HOLY - that is, set apart for the Lord. It is certainly fashionable to maintain a very high opinion of "self", and the idea that others are "better" can be seen as an insult. But please read what I and other here have read. The Saints are held up, that is ELEVATED so that we might see, learn and emulate their example. And one of the first, most striking examples that they universally set is that they placed themselves as least of all, even as Holy Scripture tells us. THEY emulated the saints before them, so we follow their worthy example. So we do likewise.
What you have not yet realized, is what it actually takes to become "saintlike". The PC, by and large, really does not understand what dying to oneself really means, even if they accept it as a concept. We eglatarian Americans certainly resent the idea that there are those better than ourselves. But is this spiritually beneficial? The last shall be first and the first shall be last. Those who would be leaders must be the servant of all. Consider yourself the worst of sinners and it becomes easier to not judge your brothers and sisters.
No, I do not consider myself "equal" to anyone here, much less to the Saints that the Church has recognized as having achieved a closeness to God that I have not. They give me a goal to strive for. They humble me because, when all else is said and done, they are NOT different from me, except that they have succeeded where I continually fail. But they remind me and encourage that even I might dare hope and strive for salvation, even as they did. They show me how far I have to go so that I don't stop too soon in prelest, thinking I have achieved something that I haven't yet. Hopefully, they keep me from becoming self-satisfied, thinking I have done "enough", so that I keep striving with my last breath.
And that is what salvation is, this is what the Saints, by their example teach us. To keep running the race, to strive until the end, to keep going even when it feels like I don't have to or simply can't go on. So they are worthy of veneration and respect. We Americans, to a large degree, have forgotten what "respect" really means. We think we are refusing to put others "below" us, but what we really end up doing is refusing to put others "above" us, and this is spiritually harmful. You may not see it yet, but God willing, as you dig deeper, you will come to see the wisdom that the Church has safeguarded all these centuries, the Apostolic Witness direct from Christ Himself.
It took me a while too.
Your servant,
Herman
Herman Blaydoe
18-06-2007, 03:19 PM
The PC's vision is very much in the eternal. We recognize the inheritance that exists in eternity as being ours already.
Please forgive, but that sounds rather Calvinistic (predestinationist) to me. Yes, the free Gift from God exists and it is ours to accept, but we still have to accept it and we are free to refuse it or give it up.
But the OC's vision tends to degenerate into the entirely experiential. And this it seems to me is what the problem here is. There is no recognition of the Biblical definition of saint as one consecrated to God as a member of the Church. there is no recognition of what is already true in eternity.
This is the heart of your misconception I think. If everyone is "special" then no one really is. Recognition of the Saints is EXACTLY that recognition of what is "already true in Eternity" in that we are recognizing that these particular individuals ACCEPTED and did not refuse "what is already true in Eternity." You also need to be aware that Orthodoxy refuses to accept the false dichotomy that the PC has created. The Church is ONE, in Heaven and on Earth. There is no separation between us and those who now stand in God's unadulterated Presence. They are part of the Church and they are consecrated to God, even as we are. We do NOT "separate" them from us. That is why their icons surround us in Church. We worship as a community and that community includes the saints as well as us "saints-in-training". But in order to avoid the very real sin of prelest, we do not attempt to call ourselves or even the saints who walk among us "saint", lest the thought that "enough" holiness has been achieved. How can one get "enough" of that which is infinite? The idea of the Saints is that there is always something better, that we should not become saited in our pursuit and love of God. We cannot stop until the race is over, the "good fight" continues until our last breath. How can we be "least" unless there are those who are "better"? Why are we not allowed to acknowledge those who have achieved that to which we aspire?
We are saints-in-training, and that training never ends in this life. THAT is what the recognized Saints teach us and encourage us to pursue.
Nina, Thank you for having the grace to recognize that I am honestly seeking for truth and not simply trying to assert some PC position.
Paul, I would appreciate some recognition that I am not your family. If you read my others posts here you will see that I do not unconditionally hold to a Protestant position.
Dear Celinda,
You are welcome.
You may assert PC position because we live in the same world after all and we live in democracy (but please do not offend Orthodoxy here where I am a member), but if you are seeking the Truth I would say try and keep on target. You are kind of undergoing a change of heart here. It is simple. Listen to those who have gone through the same change, if your heart really yearns for that change.
You are so blessed to be able to be in touch with such people that have been through the same journey. Imagine if monachos and internet did not exist and you would have to visit a local OC and find there some elderly grandmothers that do not even speak your language. What would you have done?
Thank God you have such opportunity and you also need to recognize their (Paul's, Mary's, Herman's etc) struggle for having to visit again those moments which might have been frustrating also in their life during their conversion. Paul's post is very straightforward and affects you like the taste of an aspirin when you pop it in your mouth, but you know that it is not at all strong and ultimately God willing it will be good for you. Also just by taking the time from his busy life to reply to you and by having to rehearse the memories of his frustrations because he is looking for an answer for you, I think these all indicate that he appreciates you and recognizes you. He just can't wait to embrace you in the OC and congratulate you! :)
Ok, my mission here as a psychologist is accomplished and I hope you do not get upset with me/us. We write because we want you where we are, because we LOVE you and because God LOVES you.
YES! This is very much the approach I was trying to get across. It is a recognition of ourselves as the same in nature, but as living out an attitude of service to all. The whole concept of bond-servant that I mention above is one who has given up all rights to himself. In Roman culture it was a slave who had voluntarily become a slave for life and given up his right to his own freedom and will.
You seem to have skipped over almost everything I wrote, and misunderstood the part you quoted. Yes we are same in nature. That makes us the same as Judas Iscariot, who Betrayed Christ, it makes us the same as Hitler, who slaughtered the Jews & all who helped them, makes us the same as those who through the years and even now or murdering Christians, it makes us the same as the women and men who sell their bodies, makes us one with those who abuse children and abort babies... I could go on forever.
Yes - we are one definitely one! But some from among us have followed Christ and learned how to serve and love, while most have lived for themselves to the utmost degree. Yes, we are all same in nature. But we do not all equally live in Christ. We do not all equally sacrifice our lives. They have given up everything, even their lives, to follow Christ. Why do we want to sit in the pit and say "I'm the same as they are. They're no better than I am, etc.."? Does it hurt so much to admit that others have been able to do what we haven't been able to? Is it too humiliating to follow their example and ask them to teach us the secrets that they learned?
While it's true that in most posts you sound like you understand orthodoxy, this one is so totally PC, claiming that the PC mindset is healthier than the OC! Baffles me. =) But we do understand what you're wrestling with, and we all know you're here to learn. We can only explain things the way they were explained to us, and the way we in which it made sense to us. But only the Spirit can convince you of the things of the Spirit, so pray that He will guide you into all truth. We might fail you, by treating you like family when you're not... But He won't fail you.
In Christ,
Mary.
Dear Celinda,
So you may reach a deeper understanding about theosis, may I direct you to something Kornelius has posted recently?
It is crucial to understand first that St. Gregory Palamas' focal point in making such a distinction (essence-energy) was not concerned with abstract problems of philosophy, but rather with soteriology and theosis. As heavy and pretentious as theosis may sound, Palamas was emphatic in his belief that theosis, the ultimate goal of human life, is not a myth but a reality within Christian life. He believed that unless theosis is true, the salvific act of Christ is imperiled. It would suffice to quote at this point St. Athanasios: "He [Christ] became human, so that we could become Gods." (De Incarnatione 54).
You may find it here (http://www.monachos.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3711&page=3)(from thread 'Cappadocian and reformed views on God's energies' post # 52 on monachos.net)
Celinda Grace
18-06-2007, 04:52 PM
From Fr. Raphael in the Incarnation thread.
But the theosis which the saints exemplify is something we not only are called to. It is something we already hopefully are sharing in.
In other words the uncreated grace of Christ is that which we all as members of the Church are called to participate in. This means then that the saints are not something separate from us but rather signs of that which we are called to. And hopefully, as already stated above, already participating in to some extent. In that sense the saints then are recognized by us as familiar members of the same Body that we also are part of.
I was not saying anything other then this in my post.
Herman,
Now you are starting to make sense.
They humble me because, when all else is said and done, they are NOT different from me, except that they have succeeded where I continually fail. But they remind me and encourage that even I might dare hope and strive for salvation, even as they did. They show me how far I have to go so that I don't stop too soon in prelest, thinking I have achieved something that I haven't yet. Hopefully, they keep me from becoming self-satisfied, thinking I have done "enough", so that I keep striving with my last breath.
I am not saying that we are equal with the saints in what we have accomplished, just that they are not different in kind as you say. (my whole original problem was with putting them in a different class) And I recognize that in the Kingdom, (we are talking about Orthodoxy after all -Right glory) that the saints deserve a recognition for the glory they have attained.
Also, this is not completely lacking in the PC. It has its 'heroes of the faith' although the value system tends to be different. There is a tendency to look at what is accomplished rather then character, but I already said in my previous post that
Admittedly, the PC also tends to be blind as to what the lived experience of the eternal is.
This still does not really answer my complaint wholly, for my complaint had to do with a widespread attitude I see that is not in line with what you and Fr. Raphael are saying.
Father David Moser
18-06-2007, 05:17 PM
If I may make some observations here as a former protestant (I grew up in a very devout protestant home and my family for the most part still is very active and devout in their faith - I have my degree in religion from a protestant university and only converted to Orthodoxy after I had been out of school for a couple of years. It took me easily at least 4 years to go from accepting Orthodoxy as the "best choice of Christian traditions" to resolving my own issues and actually becoming Orthodox. I say this all so you that you might understand that I speak from my own experience)
Ok here is the false dichotomy that I see, All of you are splitting, as if in two separate categories, the general Biblical use of the word saint and the use of the word saint in tradition.
...
Under the assumptions and mindset that I see here you are all drawing some line where suddenly someone is a saint, but I see things in process. There is no line there is no separate class. We are all on a journey and some are farther ahead then others.
In many ways you express the understanding of the Orthodox faith (though you seem not to recognize it as such). The "false dichotomy" exists only in your perception, not in the Church. In the Church there is no dichotomy at all. We are all saints - but some of us are still in the "becoming" process and some have "finished the course" having successfully "run the race". Those of us who are living in the world are still in the midst of the race - those who have departed this life have finished it. Our Lord, through His mercy and compassion, occasionally reveals to us the identity of some of those who have "finished" the course with honors so that we have role models and helpers in our own struggle. Those that the Church recognizes among the departed as Saints are not different from us (in fact are part of us in the Body of Christ and are themselves waiting for us to finish the course so that we can all enter into our reward together - Heb 11:39-40) They are, in fact, more accomplished than we in that they have finshed what we have only begun and they have finished the course in a manner worthy of emulation. They are Saints the like of which we ourselves strive to become.
Let me make this observation
We are saved - our salvation is held in heaven for us. It is true in eternity.
We are being saved -we are in the process of bringing eternity into time.
We will be saved completely only at the consumation of all things in Christ.
The PC's vision is very much in the eternal. ...
Admittedly, the PC also tends to be blind as to what the lived experience of the eternal is.
But the OC's vision tends to degenerate into the entirely experiential. And this it seems to me is what the problem here is.
...
In Christ each is beyond time and space, each has an eternal soul. We are saints, we are becoming saints, we will only be completed saints at the final consummation of all things. There is no separate class.
You look at this false dichotomy that you have created with the eyes of your own PC upbringing and approach (how could you do any different). You see the PC as being "in the eternal" and the OC as being "in the world" You agree that our salvation is a process something that we go through from beginning to end.
Now your ideas are good as far as they go, but they are woefully incomplete and they are also influenced by your PC bias. First let me comment on your observations about salvation:
"We are saved - our salvation is held in heaven for us. It is true in eternity."
It is also true in the here and now - we are actualizing the reality of our salvation in our lives - that's what it means to "work out your salvation"
"We are being saved -we are in the process of bringing eternity into time."
See, you have expressed the Orthodox teaching fairly well. However it is much more personal than your wording sounds here. We are in the process of bringing the eternal reality into our own lives.
"We will be saved completely only at the consumation of all things in Christ."
And here you have done what a lot of Prots have done and that is collapsed a whole level of depth into a two dimensional picture. On its face this statement is true, however between the last statement and this, you have left out a whole dimension of experience. Yes, we will be saved completely at the end of all things, but that is not yet. The Saints have not yet entered into eternity, they remain in creation, waiting for us because our salvation is not individual and piecemeal but rather we are finally saved as the one Body of Christ. We are all saved together and our salvation is bound up with theirs and theirs with ours. Thus, having finished the course, the Saints have completed their labors of "actualizing the reality of their salvation" and they are waiting for us to do the same. But they do not wait passively, they encourage us, they pray for us, they help us - in the same way that we who are still together in this life encourage one another, pray for one another, help one another. We ask our imperfect friends for help and prayers, why is it so unheard of to ask our perfected friends for help and prayers. So in potential we are all "equal" but in the actualization of that potential, we are all different, some do a better job than others, some invest more effort than others, some have worked at it longer than others, some have finished the task while others are still working on it.
You have said:
I see the attitude of the Protestant church as much healthier then that nurtured in the OC.
...
the OC's vision tends to degenerate into the entirely experiential. And this it seems to me is what the problem here is. There is no recognition of the Biblical definition of saint as one consecrated to God as a member of the Church. there is no recognition of what is already true in eternity.
And I would respond that I think that the problems that you see in Orthodoxy are exactly the problems that exist in protestantism. There is no real understanding or recognition of the Bibilcal definition of "saint" in protestantism, there is no recognition of what is already true in eternity except as a theoretical abstract construct with no reality in the here and now. By living in the "eternal" as you put it - the PC lives in the "there and then" but Orthodoxy brings the eternal into the "here and now" We do not exist "there and then" we exist "here and now". Orthodoxy brings reality to the theoretical and abstract construct of the PC without losing the contact with the things to come. This actualization in the here and now of the eternal there and then is the Biblical understanding of saints - but the PC more often than not (and understand here that there is no single PC belief but that the various protestant confessions are all over the map when it comes to a statement of faith thus it is extremely difficult to speak of the PC as a single entity). Living in the reality of the here and now is much "healthier" and to be preferred over living in the abstract of the "there and then". Without grounding in the here and now, the there and then tends to take on the attributes of fantasy and unreality because it has no real shape and form.
Please do not take this as an "attack" on you, rather it is a response to your statements, attempting to show you how your statements are both consistent with Orthodoxy and yet flawed.
Fr David Moser
Fr Raphael Vereshack
18-06-2007, 05:18 PM
Thanks Nina,
So if I read the article right, intercession is praying through the saints and invocation is praying to the saints? You know me and words with more then 3 syllables. :0
We pray to the saints because they so perfectly know how to pray. They now do so continuously for us. So we turn to them not as if their prayer allows us to neglect prayer to Christ ourselves. Rather we pray to them because their prayer has a power to it that comes from their deified state.
Prayer to the saints arose naturally within the Church from a recognition of the degree to which the saints live in Christ. But it also arises from a degree of humility on our own part since only to the degree that we recognize our sinfulness will we feel the need to turn to others within the Church in that special way unique to the Church. In other words when we turn to others in the Church this must always be part of that humble obedience which marks the Church. It is this humility which draws us to turn to the departed who are deified and presently live so much in Christ.
In any case the deisis icons portray all this very well when they show the saints, hands outstretched to Christ and facing Him in prayer. Notice how their bodies always incline towards Him as a sign that their entire life is inclined towards Him in humility. Compare this to our own hesitant and stumbling efforts and we will see in pretty short order why we do need to pray to the saints.
In Christ- Fr Raphael
Dear Celinda,
From Metropolitan of Nafpaktos Hierotheos:
"Good people are not simply called saints. Saints are those people who partake of the deifying and sanctifying energy of God. God created the world with His creative energy; He sanctifies it with his life-giving and governing energy. The life-giving and governing energy does not save. That is to say, the fact that God sanctifies the world does not mean that all those who have been created will be saved. All those who partake of the deifying energy of God are saved. In order to partake of this deifying energy we must first purify the heart of passions." p. 82
Entering the Orthodox Church: The Catechism and baptism of Adults
ISBN 960-315-089-4
Translated by Marina Mary Robb
Celinda Grace
18-06-2007, 06:37 PM
Father David,
I do not think we are saying anything different. You just are not understanding how I am using the words. I do appreciate you drawing out farther what the saints are doing while they are waiting.
Thus, having finished the course, the Saints have completed their labors of "actualizing the reality of their salvation" and they are waiting for us to do the same. But they do not wait passively, they encourage us, they pray for us, they help us
Celinda Grace
18-06-2007, 06:53 PM
I have to ask myself, why do I bring this whole topic up? It is not for me mere doctrinal arguments. It seems to be a repeating theme with me that I see certain approaches as out of touch with the needs of society.
There is a heart cry in this generation for authenticity of life. We are dealing with a generation that are wounded by expectations and examples that they feel like they can’t live up to. They do not need to be humbled so much as given hope. They do not need one more example of someone living in a castle of saintly virtue. They do not relate to ‘God –men’, they relate to saints that are human and have struggles like they do.
It is far more important to them that there are others who are overcoming on the journey, then that there are those who completed the journey. Yes it is important to see that we overcome because of the Divine Life within us, not by our own strength. However, to exalt the saints the wrong way looses the power of sharing the process of deification with those around us.
In looking at the Space Shuttle where do you experience the power more -- after it is already in orbit or in feeling the ground vibrating and hearing the roar of the engines as it goes up?
Through this invocation enfolded continually in Christ, who secretly divines all hearts, the soul does everything it can to keep its sweetness and its inner struggle hidden from men, so that the devil, coming upon it surreptitiously, does not lead it into evil and destroy its precious work.
- St Hesychios the Priest
I read this quote this morning and I wonder about its relevance today. Should we hide our struggles or the power that sweetens us with hope?
The Saints are held up, that is ELEVATED so that we might see, learn and emulate their example.
What example do we see portrayed most of the time -- The example of virtue in the face of exterior trials, or the example of their struggle to attain this virtue? This generation is much more in touch with their own interior self. They may not have a sense of sin in the traditional sense, but there is hopelessness and darkness. They want to know that there are others that relate to where they are.
Do you see why it is important for each of us to realize the truth of what Fr. Raphael has said in the above quote rather then putting the saints up on a pedestal out of reach? If we do not recognize the truth of Christ in us, working in the midst of our own personal struggles, then what do we have to offer? Only the unreachable --and what good is that?
Father David Moser
18-06-2007, 07:17 PM
Father David,
I do not think we are saying anything different. You just are not understanding how I am using the words. I do appreciate you drawing out farther what the saints are doing while they are waiting.
OK, I can accept that. It does sometimes take some time and occasional effort to realize that we are on common ground.
I will say that as far as I can tell most people don't make saints out to be "out of reach", rather they often turn to them for help and encouragement as to good friends because they are so "reachable". When I did a tour for a local art museum when they an icon exhibit, my approach was basically, "let me introduce you to some of my friends." and then I was able to tell some of the lives of the saints.
Fr David Moser
Herman Blaydoe
18-06-2007, 07:19 PM
Wow, I really really really think you need to spend some time actually reading the lives of the saints. You will find out that they were very much like you and me, subject to many of the same foibles and misunderstandings, and failings, yet through God's Grace they were able to overcome incredible obstacles through humility, repentence and obedience. One of my favorites is St. John the Dwarf.
In one story, he explained to his brothers that he did not want to partake of the daily work of the monastery, but live his life in complete prayer like the angels. He went out into the desert. A couple of days later, one of the brothers heard a knock at his cell door. It was a very hungry Brother John, asking for food. The brother answered that it could not be Brother John, because he was now living with the angels! Chastened, John was allowed back into the life of the monastery.
The lives of the saints give us hope and inspiration and illumination! You really need to get beyond the idea of saints as people on a pedestal or pictures on a wall and see them for what they really are, as Icons of Christ. Seeing the truth of Christ in them, helps us to see the truth of Christ in ourselves. It shows us that holiness/Theosis, is indeed reachable, because these people have reached it in the midst of their own personal struggles and that is very good indeed, don't you think?
Celinda Grace
18-06-2007, 07:36 PM
Father David and Herman,
OK, rebuke heard. :) I guess what I have is a PC idea of how the Orthodox approach their saints. Although I can't say that prior to this on the boards I have found much to abuse my wrong notions. But that is probably due to my own laziness in researching.
It is much easier just to ask questions then to go around digging in the archives.
Repenting and thankful,
Celinda Grace
I have to ask myself, why do I bring this whole topic up? It is not for me mere doctrinal arguments. It seems to be a repeating theme with me that I see certain approaches as out of touch with the needs of society.
There is a heart cry in this generation for authenticity of life. We are dealing with a generation that are wounded by expectations and examples that they feel like they can’t live up to. They do not need to be humbled so much as given hope. They do not need one more example of someone living in a castle of saintly virtue. They do not relate to ‘God –men’, they relate to saints that are human and have struggles like they do.
No dear Celinda, I am sorry but I tend to see things differently. Even society does not agree with you here. If you would like to speak according to society's terms hear: "Shoot for the stars!" Which does not contrast at all us Orthodox trying to emulate Saints who are our stars that guide us.
However, we never should convert Orthodoxy to societies, trends, fads or persons. Not that it will happen if we try to (because God does not deliver His Church to those who try to change It), but it is always spiritually profitable for us personally to remember that we convert to Orthodoxy. Even I that now show off with my title Orthodox here on this page. If I follow the commandments of my Christ, I convert daily from my sinful ways (you have said something about similarities in the journey of those Orthodox and those converting, remember?).
So that you do not feel placed on the spot, please let me mention a sin of mine. Vanity. Let say that I follow moda and each trend (fall, spring etc. fashion) and suddenly I feel like we Orthodox should change our tradition (of modesty) because in our times modesty simply does not fit and because the fashion changes according to season and place (resort, ski etc).
Let say I feel like Orthodoxy should be changed so that girls who like to wear dressy very short shorts (that are very much in fashion at the moment) would feel at home and welcomed at church. How about this? Also I have a friend who likes to drink, but also another likes to watch inappropriate movies etc. Should we all try to conform Orthodoxy to us???? This is a recurring theme here and I offer a prayer (although it is feeble) that may God open our eyes. Orthodoxy is there: take it, or leave it (this is for me also because I am a sinner and often do not take the advise of Orthodoxy - "Sin no more!"). But do not try to change Orthodoxy. Accepting our change/conversion from sin, means humility. Remember all who drew near Christ. They all changed from previous ways. This is how it is still because Christ is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.
When I visited the awesome Maroon Bells, where the beginning of the hiking trails converged there was a sign which I am paraphrasing: "The mountain does not care, please take precautionary measures." I smiled when I read this and started thinking how many times we humans think very highly of ourselves and what it takes to teach us the unimaginable consequences. However Orthodoxy cares, dear Celinda, She is the Church. Our Church is our Mother and She cares for Her children. I am sure you can relate through your experience as a mother.
As Metropolitan Hierotheos has said: "Man's most deep-seated aim is to become a saint." I guess this desire is causing all the questions for you. Do not doubt God's help in your quest. However you must also extend your hand to Him, because "salvation is possible in all ages [eras]."*
Coincidentally, I am just reading the life of the Hermitess Photini (http://www.monachos.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3855) who was discovered in 1890. I know 1890 may sound old to us, but during their times they also called it "our modern society and its needs". However this Hermitess emulated the lives of Saints of older times (which also were characterized as modern during pertaining times). This Hermitess' life is an intertwinement of the lives of Saint Mary of Egypt (http://www.monachos.net/library/Mary_of_Egypt,_Complete_Life_by_Patriarch_Sophroni us_of_Jerusalem) (born circa 344), Saint Pelagia (http://home.it.net.au/%7Ejgrapsas/pages/St_Pelagia.htm) (reposed 284 AD), Saint Euphrosyne (http://home.iprimus.com.au/xenos/euphrosyne.html) (fifth century). So if we compare 1890 with those other dates we see how much right this Hermitess had same as us to excuse herself and say that her society was far removed from those centuries and there was no possibility for imitation of those Saints of old. However she in full humility followed in the footsteps of the above mentioned Saints and modeled her life according to their example.
Not to mention that the Church is alive. She produces Saints daily. Some are revealed to us and some not even after their death. We have so many contemporary Elders and Mothers who came from diverse backgrounds and defied modern temptation and are with our Father in Heaven and are bold in His presence.
So please hear all those who write to you and do not be discouraged. Count your blessings! You even have Orthodox Fathers posting here who converted and hold degrees in Protestant religion! If you do not take their advise, I am speechless. Also as Herman has advised, please read lives of Saints.
Also if you are here to inquire for yourself, why do you speak about the entire generation? I am just trying to understand your motive and not imply other things.
*by Metropolitan Hierotheos in Entering the Orthodox Church
P.S It took me too much time to write this and you had already repented in the post above. :) Ooops... Are you Orthodox yet?!
Andrew
18-06-2007, 10:53 PM
I have to ask myself, why do I bring this whole topic up? It is not for me mere doctrinal arguments. It seems to be a repeating theme with me that I see certain approaches as out of touch with the needs of society.
There is a heart cry in this generation for authenticity of life. We are dealing with a generation that are wounded by expectations and examples that they feel like they can’t live up to. They do not need to be humbled so much as given hope. They do not need one more example of someone living in a castle of saintly virtue. They do not relate to ‘God –men’, they relate to saints that are human and have struggles like they do.
It is far more important to them that there are others who are overcoming on the journey, then that there are those who completed the journey. Yes it is important to see that we overcome because of the Divine Life within us, not by our own strength. However, to exalt the saints the wrong way looses the power of sharing the process of deification with those around us.
In looking at the Space Shuttle where do you experience the power more -- after it is already in orbit or in feeling the ground vibrating and hearing the roar of the engines as it goes up?
I read this quote this morning and I wonder about its relevance today. Should we hide our struggles or the power that sweetens us with hope?
What example do we see portrayed most of the time -- The example of virtue in the face of exterior trials, or the example of their struggle to attain this virtue? This generation is much more in touch with their own interior self. They may not have a sense of sin in the traditional sense, but there is hopelessness and darkness. They want to know that there are others that relate to where they are.
The Orthodox spiritual tradition (ie, the heart of Orthodoxy) has birthed forth thousands who have combatted modern/pomo nihilism. They have proven that man's true place is at the Right Hand of the Father, which means partaking of divine nature... man is meant to be Godman in the firstborn of the Elect, the Theanthropos, Christ. The deified human nature of the saints is not something to hammer us down into despair, but instead shows us that there is hope. Christ is risen, and so is human nature! We can be saved, in this life, and we can become like Christ! There is nothing more beautiful than that. We have the possibility of seeing God and knowing Him, and of sharing all things with Him for all eternity, in this very moment. We are given the possibility of true healing from neurosis, scattered mind, despair, and the general accidie of modern life. The saints show the original beauty and high calling of man that all are called to... that of Christ.
And again, remember the word given to modern man... Keep thy mind in Hell and despair not.
Have you read much Elder Sophrony? He is an apostle to the West and a true Father of the Church, I believe. His writings and person are a healing balm, and can help correct our vision of who man is and where he is meant to be. I would first of all recommend St. Silouan the Athonite and then We Shall See Him As He Is. In addition, Enlargement of the Heart by Elder Zacharias, a spiritual son of the Elder, would be of great help to you in understanding the way the Orthodox tradition helps to heal modern man. And you could also go through the postings of our own beloved Great Schema monk Fr. Seraphim.
Celinda Grace
30-06-2007, 03:33 PM
Mary,
Just trying to understand what you're saying... You say the people's attitude is a problem. I agree. People are always a problem. If it weren't for people, I'd be perfect. ;) But if we judged the message of the Church by the life of the messengers, no one would become a christian. Are we not responsible to act upon that which God has revealed to us, regardless of what others are doing or saying? In other words, if every Christian on earth is a total hypocrite would that cause Christ to become a Lie instead of the Truth?
Yes people are always a problem but the OC is supposed to be a hospital. One of the diseases we suffer from as fallen human beings is to idolize each other. It seems as if the saints are often treated like movie stars and I wonder what the 'sterilization techniques' are that keep people's tendency toward personality cults under control. It goes deeper then this but there are aspects of my problem I can't articulate. I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that people make too much of the saints as being extraordinary people rather then ordinary people transformed by an extraordinary God. Do you really look at a saint and think - God has chosen the weak things, the despised things and the things that are not? or do you see them as special people who have some strength of will or ability in an of themselves that the rest of us don't have?
And I dont' understand at all what your last statement has to do with the verses you quoted. It sounds like you're saying, since the saints are stronger, more honorable, more presentable, etc... they shouldn't be honored? But rather, those of us who are an embarrassment to the Church, should be honored?
I Cor 12:21-24
21The eye cannot say to the hand, "I don't need you!" And the head cannot say to the feet, "I don't need you!" 22On the contrary, those parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, 23and the parts that we think are less honorable we treat with special honor. And the parts that are unpresentable are treated with special modesty, 24while our presentable parts need no special treatment. But God has combined the members of the body and has given greater honor to the parts that lacked it,
Let's say some living saint came to your parish, maybe some elder from Mt. Athos or something. How is this person going to feel if a big fuss is made over them? Saints are supposed to be humble people deeply aware of their sin, therefore I would assume that any undue recognition or honor would make them feel uncomfortable. The simple respect that we all give each other is enough.
On the other hand say that a bum off the street came into your parish, who is an alcoholic because they are trying to drink away the memories of the wreck they have made of their life. You go up to that person and with great respect and honor lead them to a prime place at the front of the church. Now this person is going to really feel the love and forgiveness of Christ. You are restoring to him/her some experience of their own God given dignity which they have had no experience of.
Also, most of us know what it is like to struggle against those sins that seem to be inescapable. What if someone in the parish has a more public sin of this type that they are struggling with. Do we avoid or shun them as an embarassment to the church just because their sin is public and ours private? Or do we treat them with special modesty trying to ease their embarassement and protect them from undue critism?
The kingdom of God turns things on it's head. We do not give people what is due but what they need. That is what Christ does for us.
M.C. Steenberg
30-06-2007, 05:15 PM
Dear Celinda (and others),
You wrote:
One of the diseases we suffer from as fallen human beings is to idolize each other. It seems as if the saints are often treated like movie stars and I wonder what the 'sterilization techniques' are that keep people's tendency toward personality cults under control.
You raise a good question here, but one which must be approached with a bit of nuance. It is a natural human tendency in a condition of fallen perception and willing to create idols out everything -- the self first of all, but just as easily creation and others. Thrust into the religious context, rather than simply the general, the tendency to convert this impulse toward idolisation of creation into idolisation of 'God's elect' is not always easy to resist. This is part of the condition of man, awaiting transformation in Christ through the Spirit.
And yet, and yet. Glorification and idolisation must always be distinguished, despite the very real problem that to uncleansed eyes they can at times look quite similar. The revealed glory of God is revealed in men and women transfigured by his presence, and the 'glorification of the saints' is above all the glorification of God that is worked in their persons. 'Blessed art Thou, O God, who art glorified in Thy saints' is a common liturgical and prayerful refrain in the Church.
You continued:
It goes deeper then this but there are aspects of my problem I can't articulate. I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that people make too much of the saints as being extraordinary people rather then ordinary people transformed by an extraordinary God.
I understand and appreciate what you are saying here; but perhaps this is precisely an area where a transformation of common perceptions and language is most necessary.
There is nothing 'ordinary' about a saint -- but this is true because, and here the greater mystery, there is nothing 'ordinary' about any human person. This is a creature of dust and breath that is, at its core, united to the life of the Father through the Son and the Spirit. It is a being in which one sees God himself, for this creaure is his image. It is this creature that God himself became and is, and it is this creature that lives as the temple of God the Spirit. It is this creature that, as the transfiguration on Tabor shows and as the testimony of so many modern saints have reminded (the most memorable being Fr Seraphim, saint of Russia), that in its very humanity may shine with all the light of God himself.
The saints are extraordinary people, because theirs are lives of our extraordinariness demonstrated in its reality: that which each person is, but which we so often fail to approximate through our continual submission to sin.
The reason the saints are venerated with such reverence is precisely because they are not some 'other class' of humanity, but because they are the beacons of my humanity.
Do you really look at a saint and think - God has chosen the weak things, the despised things and the things that are not? or do you see them as special people who have some strength of will or ability in an of themselves that the rest of us don't have?
Perhaps we mustn't force such a dichotomy. God does choose the weak and the despised - the lives of the saints verify this a thousandfold. And yet the saints are those who, also, have directly and forcefully engaged in the command to 'work out their salvation in fear and trembling', to heed Christ's reminder that the Kingdom belongs to those who take it by force.
The testimony of both aspects is important. God works with the weak, the despised (though also with the powerful and rich: God is no 'respector of persons', one way or the other), and so my weakness and poverty will not prove an ultimate obstacle for transformation; but holiness is also a project of action and struggle -- not a task for submission alone, but also of engagement. 'Take up your cot, and walk'.
INXC, Matthew
Herman Blaydoe
30-06-2007, 05:30 PM
Do you really look at a saint and think - God has chosen the weak things, the despised things and the things that are not?
Absolutely. St. Moses the Ethiopian, St. Mary of Egypt. St. Xenia of Petersburg, St. Peter the Apostle, and so many others. What are they but weak vessels made strong in Christ?
or do you see them as special people who have some strength of will or ability in an of themselves that the rest of us don't have?
No, they are examples of what we can become.
On the other hand say that a bum off the street came into your parish, who is an alcoholic because they are trying to drink away the memories of the wreck they have made of their life. You go up to that person and with great respect and honor lead them to a prime place at the front of the church. Now this person is going to really feel the love and forgiveness of Christ. You are restoring to him/her some experience of their own God given dignity which they have had no experience of.
Dear Celinda,
After the beautiful reply of Matthew (thank you!) I do not have anything else to say, because it is said so perfectly.
However please allow me to add something that the Saints tell us through their actions and deeds: In the face of whom you refer to as "a bum off the street" and all people, to see Christ. Indeed, there are many stories of Saints who treated the marginalized people of the society like they were royalty. Often those appearing as poor and destitute were either Christ Himself, or an angel of God trying the Saints. So yes, Mathew is so right when he witnesses that Saints are not ordinary and they are beacons for us. Their examples teach us what you suggest: to take that poor person and treat him as royalty; give him even the coat of our back (as a Saint has done)! But how many times I took my coat off and gave it to a poor who was trembling from the frost covered with cardboards near the steam holes of the street??? Never. So that is what makes the Saints extraordinary and special; and I glorify God for giving them to us, so their example can stimulate and motivate us to be better people and God willing to achieve theosis, like Saints did before us.
Also you are right that a holy Elder would never accept glory and praise. Because holy people are Christ-centric and not ego-centric. They always glorified God in word and deed. Saints are renowned for fleeing glory and praise while alive. They often forbid people to tell about a miracle that people witness. But after their departure they allow things to be revealed for the glory of God, so many can see and believe. Because we as fallen humans often need a concrete proof for our spiritual eyes to open and believe. Lives of martyrs are filled with such examples. After the repose of the Saint we venerate them and ask fervently for them to intercede to God for us, because of the status they have reached: theosis.
I read your message this morning, and didn't have time to reply. The first bunch of thoughts that came to my mind still needed a bit of time to be put together in a sensible way, so I spent the day thinking about how to say what I wanted to say. Well... I come back and I see that the first thing I wanted to say, Matthew has already said, and the next thing I wanted to say, Herman has said, and the next thing I wanted to say, Nina has said... So, I thought I'd say something totally unrelated.
I decided to go over my old e-mails to see what kind of struggles I had with the Saints and found out that I had trouble reading the stories of those tortured to death... first of all, the tortures were inhuman and a normal human being would've died as soon as the tortures began. But they refused to die, so they were tortured even more. I didn't have trouble believeing all that, mostly because I had decided I was going to accept everything the orthodox said as true, until it could be proved false.
The problem that I had was with the amount of cruelty that one human being is capable of imposing on another. Why should I read about that, and in what way is that supposed to make me a better Christian? All it does is make me even more paranoid than I already am. And those saints who were able to work so hard and overcome all their passions... what difference does that make? My problem was with St Mary of Egypt... she struggled alone and she survived alone, what did she do for anyone? All that hard work was just for herself! And of course, to knock down St Zosimas's pride. But how is it supposed to help me?
Celinda... how can I explain to you what has happened to me? I have fallen in love with the saints. I NEED to know them! St Mary is my Patron saint and little bit at a time I understand how God is blessing the whole world through her hard work. Then there were those who didn't sin like her - St John the Baptist, St Martin of Tours, etc. No, they do not make me feel like they are extraordinary humans, with something that I dont' have, that made them able to live like angels. I draw as much encouragement from them as I do from her.
I know, I probably idolize them more than I should, but unlike the movie stars, they won't let me down! They won't drag me down to hell with them, if I hold on to them they will drag me to heaven with them! And does it matter if my understanding of them is lopsided? I don't think so. God knows how lopsided my mind/heart/feelings are. And He's working on me to bring me to a place of balance, dispassion, and so forth.
They've become my friends! At church earlier, there was a new icon in the center for us to venerate... two men holding spoons in their hands instead of crosses. Their names were written in Greek so I was clueless as to who they were. But I stared at them for a while, and knew they were probably those two doctor brothers I'd read about, but I had forgotten their names. They never took payement for treating their patients. Then, during the service, I remembered their names, Sts Cosmas and Damien. At the End of the service, when our priest said their names, I was so excited! I was right - I knew them, even though they spoke to me in Greek! =) It was like greeting friends I hadn't seen for a year.
And those martyrs whose tortures I couldn't bear to read about... this time round, I saw something more. I already knew that the reason they were able to bear so much was because God was supernaturally strengthening them. But the purpose for all this drama? I can see the love the martyrs had for their tormentors, I can see the tormentors being confounded and realizing that God is real and mostly I can see how God strengthens those who are willing to lose their lives for him! And it isnt' just seeing it with my intellect... it's something much deeper. It helps me trust God more, somehow! So, that's how the saints help me to become a better Christian. They're somehow able to share with me, the gifts they themselves received from God!
And you know that's possible... you have benefitted from the songs that Michael Card has written. His songs are enriched by his experiences and his ability to put his struggles and the lessons he's learned into beautiful words. How is it that you can draw encouragement from the comfort that God gave him? Especially since he isn't singing to help you, but rather, to praise God...?
It's supernatural. That's how God connects us to each other. That's how we bear each other's burdens. And these Saints of ours, they've been through things that make our lives seem like child's play. They have LOTS to give us. But they never make us feel small, by comparing the ease of our lives with the hardships of theirs and wondering how come we're such wimps! No, never once have I felt discouraged when I read of their extraordinary lives! I can't explain how that is, it just is.
One of the diseases we suffer from as fallen human beings is to idolize each other. It seems as if the saints are often treated like movie stars and I wonder what the 'sterilization techniques' are that keep people's tendency toward personality cults under control.
That's God's job, you'll have to ask Him what His techniques are to keep people's problems under control... =)
In Christ,
Mary.
Celinda Grace
04-07-2007, 05:25 PM
They've become my friends!...It's supernatural. That's how God connects us to each other.
Mary,
I think I figured out the heart of my misunderstandings here. I have missed the whole relational aspect.
If we struggle with self-exaltation or false humility it is because we have an ideal of virtue that we are striving for and one problem in the PC is that we tend to set up ideals to strive for. I think that many PC converts unconsciously take this approach and transfer it to the saints. (This is certainly what I have been doing.) I had a real eye opener when I read this in Fr. Seraphim Rose, His Life and His Works.
“In almost every issue of The Orthodox Word, the Platina fathers presented the Life of an ascetic laborer, a true knower of God. The knew that, more then anything else, it was love for the ascetics themselves that inspired one to podvig (ascetic struggle).”
I realized that the modern mind tends to look at the life of a saint and set it up as an ideal to follow. This is the normal way that things are approached in the PC church. When we set up an ideal to follow we fall into the trap that approaching that ideal tempts us to have a good opinion of ourselves in some absolute sense of our own goodness or falling short of that ideal causes us to feel like a failure. The whole relationship to an ideal is self-reflective because we are always comparing ourselves with something. People can approach the saints the same way. They set the lives and character of the saints up as an ideal and then must consciously make themselves lower then the saintly ideal to maintain a proper humility.
Fr. Seraphim’s life has helped me realize this plays out far different when one has a true Orthodox mindset. In a culture where spiritual fatherhood is the norm and the saints are seen not as dead but as living a whole different dynamic is nurtured. In this culture it is love of a parent and the natural childlike desire to imitate and please that parent that becomes the heart of the approach to the saints. Here one is not inspired to strive toward an ideal but one strives to be faithful in the face of a beloved witness. One is striving to hear that “Well done, my child.”
Am I getting closer to what you are trying to say now?
Mary,
I think I figured out the heart of my misunderstandings here. I have missed the whole relational aspect. ....
Fr. Seraphim’s life has helped me realize this plays out far different when one has a true Orthodox mindset. In a culture where spiritual fatherhood is the norm and the saints are seen not as dead but as living a whole different dynamic is nurtured. In this culture it is love of a parent and the natural childlike desire to imitate and please that parent that becomes the heart of the approach to the saints. Here one is not inspired to strive toward an ideal but one strives to be faithful in the face of a beloved witness. One is striving to hear that “Well done, my child.”
Am I getting closer to what you are trying to say now?
Sounds like you're getting closer. =)
'See you' next month.
Mary.
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