The nature and role of the spiritual father

[Rick H.]

On Shell Games and Coke Machine Gangs




I think that I can agree with your idea of "Personal Spiritual Practice" but with one very important amendment: "prayer, reading, meditation, fasting, or other personal means--each as is appropriate for oneself" as taught by the Orthodox Church and as given to you by your spiritual father.


Fr David Moser



Dear Father David, Dear Fellow Learners,

Thank you very much for taking time out of your busy day to answer my post about "knowing God" and "being Orthodox."

If I remember correctly you are not only a priest but you are also a teacher in a distance course program too. So, I understand that you might not have time to continue with this, but if you do that would be great! And, with this in mind, I would like to open this up to others as well.

So, everyone. please look at the above amendment again. With this amendment in place, we have agreement on the idea of a personal spiritual practice! Lechiam!!! (To Life! . . . as Tevye and Laser Wolf sang in celebration of their short lived agreement).

But, again here, as in my above posts where I point to the same thing, please look at the extremely high degree of subjectivity in what is being said as it relates to the seeker of Truth:




1.) as taught by the Orthodox Church

2.) as given to you by your spiritual father.



As taught by the Orthodox Church: While Matthew has given a very masterful and beautiful answer to the question "Who is the Church?" in the "Church: Limits & Boundaries" thread, and as we have seen the charges of heresy launched towards those who have been taught *this* or who have been taught *that* in the "Body & Blood" thread . . . with all due respect to all, this explanation, "as taught by the Orthodox Church," which many here have 'repeated back', at one time or another, provides the same degree of help for the seeker as would be found gazing at a cardboard box on the streets of New York, while one tries to follow the queen as the cards are swirled about by the master of the Three Card Monte.

And, I guess, in response to the gazing posture which results in the above, we could modify our long-time question, "Who is the Church?" and instead ask "Who/who Determines Who/who the Church IS?" Possibly, this is the proper response. I don't know. We talk of the need to know Christ and be Orthodox, and this by means of a personal spiritual practice . . .but when we wish for more clarity, we get "as taught by the Orthodox Church." . . . Okay, . . .

As given to you by your spiritual father: The same thing here again . . . unbeknownst (I think this is the first time I have ever used this word) . . . unbeknownst to all, I have shared some things here on monachos, that I practice in my personal spiritual practice, and some of these things that I have presented as 'examples' and 'illustrations' in the past have been attacked viciously by some. During the 400 posts in the A.O. thread and the 300+ posts in this thread, I have shared some of these things to test the waters here so to say, and have received a less than favorable result from some. But, here's the thing. These same 'examples and illustrations,' that I am speaking of, were practiced with the approval of my spiritual father.

So, from here, I guess, we could enter into a discussion about who determines who is a proper and acceptable spiritual father. Or, possibly we could take a vote on it here,and form a consensus like they do at the Coke machine down at the Bait Shop? Or, possibly, we could just say something like, 'A proper and acceptable spiritual father is one who teaches what is taught by the Orthodox Church! And, then we could all say, "amen," "I heard that," "that aint no lie" . . . and then we could go on to the next topic.

And, hopefully, most can see that these are real questions. And, there may be some who would just wish that these questions would just go away, and in the meantime will put their fingers in their ears and hum "God Bless America" at a rapid pace.

***However, it is my hope that some of the mature Orthodox (who can model the true patience that has been gained through an historic Orthodox Christian approach) will step up to the plate here in a helpful way, and model the love of the One Whom they follow--as they point to an Historic Orthodox Way in a way other than one of the three cups and the ball.

I have spent some time reading the archives here, and this bit that has been offered to seekers in the past, whereby they are told things like, 'you just don't get it because you haven't been Orthodox long enough' (love that one by the way), or , ' you don't understand because of your background' or 'you don't understand because of your geography--the evil and ignorant west.' Or, whatever . . . this kind of thing really just doesn't cut it. Can't we do any better than this? Can't we offer something better than a shell game? The shell game might dazzel and mesmerize the guys at the Bait Shop, but we are not all members of that particular Coke machine gang.


In Christ,
Rick

[Father David Moser]

As given to you by your spiritual father: The same thing here again . . . unbeknownst (I think this is the first time I have ever used this word) . . . unbeknownst to all, I have shared some things here on monachos, that I practice in my personal spiritual practice, and some of these things that I have presented as 'examples' and 'illustrations' in the past have been attacked viciously by some. During the 400 posts in the A.O. thread and the 300+ posts in this thread, I have shared some of these things to test the waters here so to say, and have received a less than favorable result from some. But, here's the thing. These same 'examples and illustrations,' that I am speaking of, were practiced with the approval of my spiritual father.

The important point, however, is that they were given to YOU for YOUR use by YOUR spiritual father and he deemed that they would be beneficial to YOUR spiritual well being and development. He never intended for you to present these things to others as possibly beneficial to them. St Macarii of Optina gave some very good instruction to one of his spiritual children that I think we would all benefit from considering. He wrote: "What I write to you, I write for you alone, and I must ask you to refrain from passing any of it on to others as a general rule of conduct for all. It is nothing of the kind. My advice to you is fashioned according to your inner and outer circumstances. Hence it can be right only for you."

If you had said something like "My spiritual father told me to do xxxxx" then it would have had less the tone of "xxxxx is a universally beneficial practice in the Orthodox Church if it strikes your fancy."

This whole topic seems to be a good illustration of the fact that Orthodoxy is pastoral in nature and therefore a spiritual discipline that is prescribed for one might not be beneficial for another. The ability to give spiritual advice is not a skill that is learned - it is a grace that is given. The only skill that can be learned by a priest to be a good confessor is to "get out of the way" and allow the Holy Spirit to speak. One of the most chilling things that I read on the internet are spiritual novices sharing the advice given to them by their spiritual fathers as though it were for everyone and thereby presuming to give spiritual direction. I see it all over (not just here on monachos.net) and I worry about what will become of those poor souls who are being guided by long distance amateurs who have not the grace of ordination nor the spiritual experience and maturity necessary to give such direction.


So, from here, I guess, we could enter into a discussion about who determines who is a proper and acceptable spiritual father.

Your spiritual father should be your parish priest, or the confessor to whom he sends you. In a monastic setting, your spiritual father is the one assigned to you by the monastery elders. As far as I'm concerned these are the only criteria of who is your proper and acceptable spiritual father. Should a person develop a relationship with someone else (say an experienced elder in a monastery or from Mt Athos or some similar spiritual center) who is spiritually experienced and wise, that is fine - but one should submit even this spiritual direction to the wisdom of your own spiritual father (parish priest/monastic elder) before embarking on it.

Again - it is very simple.

Fr David Moser

[Mary]

But, again here, as in my above posts where I point to the same thing, please look at the extremely high degree of subjectivity in what is being said as it relates to the seeker of Truth:
In Christ,
Rick

Rick, believe it or not, I understand your frustration! But there is a reason for the extreme degree of subjectivity... Truth is a Person. So, the 'knowing' we're after, is a relationship, not a knowledge. Is there anyone who can give you precise instructions on how to get to know another person?

The best anyone can come up with is sharing guidelines of how to build a relationship - spend time with the person, learn to listen, and understand, dont' get defensive, be quick to ask for forgiveness, etc. But does that REALLY, REALLY tell you anything?

Again and again, all that happens is that we get tossed into a room full of people - God, Christ, the Holy Spirit, the Theotokos, the Saints... and we're supposed to build a relationship with them... where to start? I suppose, the best place to start would be with introducing yourself and go from there...

If I were to ask you, what's the best way to get to know you... what would you say? Wrestling with ideas on the internet is one way. But even if we got to the place where we totally understood each others' words... do we still truly KNOW each other? Hardly!

So the answer is at once extremely simple and utterly confusing - simple enough for a child and still baffling to an adult. Go figure! =)

In Christ,

Simple-y confused Mary.

[Father David Moser]

One example of this would be the way in which he is chilled about the thought of someone who he considers is not filled with the Grace of God and competent to share with another about the Spiritual Path,

Which was not what I said. I said I was concerned about the person who does not have the grace of ordination which is quite a different thing than "not filled with the Grace of God". And no one is competent to give spiritual direction save God Himself through the action of the Holy Spirit. I think that I stressed that the only "skill" a confessor can learn is the "skill" of getting out of the way and letting the Holy Spirit act through him.


blindly trust their spiritual life to anyone who has the title parish priest or monk, or whatever--this assumes way too much for me!


It is not the "title" of parish priest or monk that is at issue here, but rather the fact that the Church - the Body of Christ, the presence of God in the world - selects certain people to be pastors and teachers and through the sacrament of ordination those people receive a special grace to fulfill their calling. Your parish priest is the spiritual father that God has given to you. This is not some kind of system - but it is the provision of God for you. Perhaps he he has his faults and isn't the equal of St Ambrose of Optina or St Paisii Velichkovsky or St Nikolai of Ochrid - but when he acts in his priestly and pastoral capacity, it is not he himself acting out of his own qualifications or abilities, but rather the Holy Spirit acting through him.

I should stop now before I say something for which I will have to confess and repent.

Fr David Moser

[Antonios]

I am chilled to the bone as I think about the one who would ... blindly trust their spiritual life to anyone who has the title parish priest or monk, or whatever--this assumes way too much for me!


Dear Rick,

You obviously will never become a monk, nor a priest. That is, of course, okay. These are a special calling from God and is not necessary for one's salvation, generally speaking that is. There was a time when I had a strong desire to serve in the Holy Order, but my sins and weaknesses are much too great. I, instead, pray for my parish priest, my bishop, and all the clergy to continue to feed the flock of Christ, and maybe somehow I, and sinners like me, will squeak in.

Where I find difficulty in your above statement is the phrase 'blindly trust'. One's relationship with one's spiritual father is not based on 'blind trust'. It is based on love, faith, and obedience. Christ-like love for eachother. Faith in the Lord's statement "where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them"(Matt 18:20). Obedience by the one towards their spiritual father, and obedience by the spiritual father to fulfill the Lord's commandments, lest he ties a millstone around his own neck. Let us stay away from making statements like 'one who has the title parish priest or monk', as this seems to denigrate and makes ordination sound like a degree obtained and not what it is truly is, a grace-filled service for the Lord. This is not a title, but a mystery.

[Effie Ganatsios]

[QUOTE=Rick Henry;46861]On Shell Games and Coke Machine Gangs


As given to you by your spiritual father: The same thing here again . . . unbeknownst (I think this is the first time I have ever used this word) . . . unbeknownst to all, I have shared some things here on monachos, that I practice in my personal spiritual practice, and some of these things that I have presented as 'examples' and 'illustrations' in the past have been attacked viciously by some. During the 400 posts in the A.O. thread and the 300+ posts in this thread, I have shared some of these things to test the waters here so to say, and have received a less than favorable result from some. But, here's the thing. These same 'examples and illustrations,' that I am speaking of, were practiced with the approval of my spiritual father.

So, from here, I guess, we could enter into a discussion about who determines who is a proper and acceptable spiritual father. "

Rick, the advice given you is correct. "As given to you by your spiritual father". On these forums everyone can say whatever they want. Not out of a desire to mislead but out of a desire to instruct. This does not mean that they are right. Your spiritual father knows you and you will tell him things that cannot be said on an open forum.

The big question is as you said " who determines who is a proper and acceptable spiritual father". I remember reading one of the Orthodox Fathers on this subject (and forgive me but I can't remember exactly who) and he advised us to be very careful about selecting a spiritual father because many aspire to be but are not worthy.

I will try to find the text and post it.

Effie

[Effie Ganatsios]

Rick, I found the following (NOT the one I remembered) :

"The spiritual father must be knowledgeable, wise, discerning, experienced and prudent. He should have the Holy Spirit to give him guidance on how he is to tend and heal the souls of sinners. Above all, he should have love and loving care for those who confess. Such spiritual fathers, although rare today, nonetheless do exist. Whoever strives to find them is able to. What this is, God’s wrath or abandonment of us, I do not know... Preaching is good and necessary, but virtuous spiritual fathers are more necessary. The spiritual father is the one who will wash us from the mire of sin, cleanse our wounds, give us medicines for the safeguard, cure and health of the soul, and reconcile and unite us with God... If we wish not to sin, we should remember death and reflect that God is before us. The spiritual father must not only be clean and free from sin, but he should also have the gift of discernment, because spiritual knowledge differs from medicine as the soul differs from the body....

...The teacher must become wise and very discerning, and because no one is wise in this world of himself, he must through fervent prayer ask God, the granter of true wisdom, to give him the gift of wisdom and prudence, like Solomon, to govern souls. Many times with the same medicine one person is healed and the other is harmed—the teacher and the priest must have the gift of discernment. Nevertheless a good, sweet, mild, humble manner benefits more (To a general in 1955)...."

...The above is from :Excerpts from Paternal Counsels, Vol. I and II
by St. Philotheos Zervakos

Full text at http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/paternalcounsels.aspx

[Effie Ganatsios]

Spiritual fathers :

"The conclusion that emerges from this brief walk through the meadows of our ecclesiastical tradition is as follows: it is our responsibility to have a permanent and steady spiritual father. At the same time, we have the right to choose the most appropriate one for us, not the most accommodating, but the most experienced and seasoned, a true man of God in whose presence we’ll find spiritual rest and security. St. Symeon observes something that holds true in our days. Those who know “to guide well and cure the logical souls” are rare at every season (Catech. 20, sections 104, 346).

This is precisely why we must take the necessary measures in our selection process. We need to pray fervently so that God will find us worth of this great gift. The same teacher writes, “With prayer and tears, keep pleading with God to send you a holy and passionless guide,” a guide for our journey to the heavenly kingdom.

—From the conclusion of The Spiritual Father According to Orthodox Tradition, by Father Symeon Koutsas."

The above found at http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/pr_guidance.aspx

The reference in the above text to St. Symeon is the one that I remember. I shall try and find the text.

Effie
"

[Effie Ganatsios]

"Again, in the eleventh century St. Symeon the New Theologian wrote: "If you wish to renounce the world and learn the life of the Gospel, do not surrender (entrust) yourself to an inexperienced or passionate master, lest instead of the life of the Gospel you learn a diabolic life. For the teaching of good teachers is good, while the teaching of bad teachers is bad. Bad seeds invariably produce bad fruits... Every blind man who undertakes to guide others is a deceiver or quack, and those who follow him are cast into the pit of destruction, according to the word of the Lord, 'If a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into a hole' (Matt. 15.14)." (Practical and Theological Texts, 32, 34, in The Philokalia, vol. 3)."


Full text : http://www.romanitas.ru/eng/CULTISM%20WITHIN.htm

[Celinda Grace]

I woke up this morning with a number of thoughts running through my head and find that they mirror some of the topics being discussed here.

It was noted that gerneralitites do not help us when it comes to our own particular situation, yet it was equally noted that the unique council we recieve, and our unique spiritual lessons and practice cannot be made into a generality for all.
What then is the point of discussion and how might we approach it here?

It seems to me the best we can do is show how general principles have been put into practice in our own lives and try to discern whether in our own situation God has used this to help us grow spiritually and how. In talking about the saints we say that they make the eternal plan of God visible in a real and living way. We may not be saints in any full sense of the word, but we have each had God touch our lives. In sharing how He has helped us to grow maybe we can be Spiritual brothers and sisters, making God visible to each other.

It is the gift of the Spiritual Father to be a vehicle through which growth occurs directly as his own wisdom and experience gets applied to our lives. However, as Spiritual brothers and sisters we should not presume to try to apply our own experience to others but only show forth our own experience, in this we can help each other grow indirectly.

As spiritual brothers and sisters we should not judge whether or not some experience or practice is helpful or harmful to another. Also as spiritual brothers and sisters we should not automatically think that because something has not worked for someone else it will not work for us or that if something has worked for another it will work for us.

In my own life I often find when I hear about how God has worked in other people's lives that God helps me to sift through and find the gem that is relevant to my own situation. Maybe we can just have the attitude that we are throwing gems and let those who will catch them.

[Rick H.]

Dear Antonios,

What a beautiful spirit you model here as a blessing to all! Thank you. Yes, brother, "70 X 7." And, I hope you will *forgive me* for 'popping-off,' and not developing my assertion well enough to be comprehensible. And, with my continued apologies to any cavemen who are still around (as evidenced in the Geico Insurance commercials), sometimes it takes someone like me to grunt and point to something, so that another such as Effie can come in in a more polished/intelligible way.

Possibly, today, in a more productive and 'a better way' (viz. by means of Effie's top shelf work), we can look at what was said a little closer. Yes, and possibly, today, God willing, in a more intelligible way, I can develop my statement, "I am chilled to the bone as I think about the one who would ... blindly trust their spiritual life to anyone . . ."

Thank you again.

Your brother In Christ,
Rick

PS Speaking of 'a more polished/intelligible way,' I see now with the addition of Celinda into this conversation [above & below] we are well on our way.

[Celinda Grace]

From the Ascetic of Love

"It is not what we say but what we live, it is not what we do but what we are."

"Love shatters evil"

I was talking with a friend yesterday who was saying to me that the power of the Apostles went into the scriptures and is passed to us through them. Although I knew this was an incomplete answer and that tradition is also a vehicle for the power of Christ to be passed to us, at the time I did not discern how.

This morning as I was reflecting on what I have been learning I realized how central spiritual community and spiritual council are to the OC and it struck me that in many ways this is also part of the answer.

As I look back on my own life and ask, How has love shattered evil? I realized that only in being loved are we enabled to love.

And God cannot do this by his Spirit. Love must be passed to us through living hands. If I look at my own life it is those who loved me when I had nothing to offer that have had the most impact. This is what made Mother Gavrilia so great. She passed the power of God's love on to so many.

This is why a spiritual teacher of passionate character is such a corruption. But I think that even a spiritual father who may lack some discernment but who has a sincere love for God and love for us can help us if we will allow them by being obedient. None of us is perfect. In any relationship we have to allow God to make up the slack. If we are looking for the 'perfect' spiritual father we probably don't deserve them and it is unlikely we are in a spiritual position to be helped by them. We must have faith that what God has provided is what we need.

Just reading what Rick said above I decided to edit this quick. Do we 'blindly trust' our spiritual life to someone? Or are we trusting that God can work through our relationships?

[Rick H.]

". . . be very careful . . ."

Dear All,

Earlier, Effie contributed the following:





The big question is as you said " who determines who is a proper and acceptable spiritual father".

I remember reading one of the Orthodox Fathers on this subject (and forgive me but I can't remember exactly who) and he advised us to be very careful about selecting a spiritual father because many aspire to be but are not worthy.



May we remember the words of our Lord who has told us to "Beware!" of psuedo prophetese--aka wolves in sheeps clothing--who model/bring forth fruits which amount to "the bane of the religious life."

Not betach/trust or a deep feeling of security; but, "Beware."

In Christ,
Rick

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Celinda wrote:


And God cannot do this by his Spirit. Love must be passed to us through living hands. If I look at my own life it is those who loved me when I had nothing to offer that have had the most impact. This is what made Mother Gavrilia so great. She passed the power of God's love on to so many.

We would say that the Holy Spirit acts on us through these living hands. In most cases this is how it is. That is to teach us that love and obedience are necessary to the presence of the Holy Spirit.

For example read St Seraphim of Sarov's Conversation with Nicholas Motovilov. The Holy Spirit's transfiguring grace was revealed to Motovilov in a most tangible way during the conversation through St Seraphim. But Motovilov's love and obedience were very important. Without the latter, the former possibly would not have been made so tangible.


This is why a spiritual teacher of passionate character is such a corruption. But I think that even a spiritual father who may lack some discernment but who has a sincere love for God and love for us can help us if we will allow them by being obedient. None of us is perfect. In any relationship we have to allow God to make up the slack. If we are looking for the 'perfect' spiritual father we probably don't deserve them and it is unlikely we are in a spiritual position to be helped by them. We must have faith that what God has provided is what we need.

This again is why the general has to be applied in a personal way. Along with the above we are also taught to have faith in our relationship with our spiritual father. There are just as many instructive accounts of those saved by enduring challenging or in some cases even abusive spiritual fathers.

How to combine these two? Both really are important in the relationship we have with our spiritual father. There is a degree of discernment which is important in regards to a spiritual father. But yet faith, love and patience from our side are also crucial in gathering spiritual fruit.

The general instructions we gain from oral tradition and the lives of the saints are the lights to guide us in our life in Christ. But the how of this is always personal and according to how God is guiding us at a particular time.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Rick H.]

". . . lest you learn a diabolic life."



On "Blind" Guides of the "Blind"






Again, in the eleventh century St. Symeon the New Theologian wrote: "If you wish to renounce the world and learn the life of the Gospel, do not surrender (entrust) yourself to an inexperienced or passionate master, lest instead of the life of the Gospel you learn a diabolic life.


For the teaching of good teachers is good, while the teaching of bad teachers is bad. Bad seeds invariably produce bad fruits...


Every blind man who undertakes to guide others is a deceiver or quack, and those who follow him are cast into the pit of destruction, according to the word of the Lord, 'If a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into a hole' (Mat 15:14)


(Practical and Theological Texts, 32, 34, in The Philokalia, vol. 3)."





Dear All,

Once again we are blessed by Father Raphael's pen in the above, and again, also, we all benefit from Effie's research--in this case coming from the eleventh century. But, this is a very important place we are at today. So, I would like to continue driving this point home.

Please look at what is said above. I would think these things go without saying! "Bad seeds 'invariably' produce bad fruits." Lest 'instead' . . . you learn a diabolic life." 'Those who follow the deceiver or quack are those who are cast into the pit of destruction."

So there is a time to surrender and entrust/betach, just as there is a time to flee. For a balanced view on the 'how' of this, please reread Father Raphael's most recent post.

In Christ,
Rick

[Effie Ganatsios]

Each time I read Father Raphael's posts, I say : "Yes, that's what I wanted to say!" And Celinda's post was wonderful.

Rick, something that comes to my mind frequently is that we are told to be innocent as a dove but wise as a serpent. So we trust but we also keep our eyes open when dealing with people. However, we completely trust God -because we know that everything that happens to us is with his consent.

Remember that Jesus also told his disciples to beware - he was sending them as sheep amongst wolves.

The above are my own somewhat confused thoughts, please correct me if I'm wrong.

Effie

[Father David Moser]

...something that comes to my mind frequently is that we are told to be innocent as a dove but wise as a serpent. So we trust but we also keep our eyes open when dealing with people. However, we completely trust God -because we know that everything that happens to us is with his consent.

Remember that Jesus also told his disciples to beware - he was sending them as sheep amongst wolves.


These comments kind of link to what I have been trying to say about spiritual fathers. Jesus sent his disciples out as apostles, as messengers, as ambassadors, as teachers and as spiritual fathers. Our Lord sent a pack of ignorant fishermen out as his ambassadors to the world. The Holy Apostles are the pinnacle of spiritual fatherhood - and yet they were not "qualified" or "trained" - their only qualification was that they sat at the feet of their Master and learned from Him and they carried the grace of the Holy Spirit with them. They were the first ordained of all those who followed them as bishops priests and deacons. A priest is not just some guy off the street, nor is he a new convert. In most places a convert must be Orthodox for a few years before he is ordained and even then the candidate for ordination has to meet with the standards and approval of his bishop. His own spiritual father has to agree that this man is fit to be a priest. In this way, like the Holy Apostles, the parish priest has first sat at the feet of the Master, learning from Him (under the guidance of his own spiritual father who came before him in the same path) and like the Apostles he is then granted the grace of Ordination by which he is empowered to fulfill his task. I do not think that the apostles, by some of the standards we impose today, would "qualify" for ordination - and yet they knew that they were not the ones who spoke, but Christ spoke through them; they knew that is was not their life, but Christ's that they lived.

Now, having said all that, the reader might begin to ask - so then are all spiritual father's created equal? Is there any value in seminary and religious training? Should experience count for anything? The answers are of course, no, yes, yes. The quality of spiritual guidance that one might receive from different fathers does indeed vary. The grace of the Holy Spirit doesn't change, but the skill of the father in allowing that grace to act and getting out of the way does. Seminary, religious training, experience - all these things have value and to a greater or lesser degree affect the ability of a particular spiritual father to care for his flock. Any spiritual father worth his "salt" knows this, and knows that there are others more able than himself. Any spiritual father worth his "salt" will recognize that at times it is necessary for his spiritual children to receive direction and guidance from someone other than himself. Most every priest is overjoyed when one of his spiritual children is able to receive help from someone wiser or more spiritually mature and experienced than himself. However, in the end the parish priest is the "father" of his parish, he is the shepherd of his little flock and he is responsible before God for the spiritual welfare of those who have been entrusted to him by God.

I've got to say that there are occasionally other clergy with whom I have a great problem when it comes to pastoral "style". I would never do the things they do or say the things they say - but - God has given them their flock (just as He has given to the people their pastor) and that synergy, even though it is not my style, is given to them by God as the best thing for their mutual salvation. I have to trust that the Holy Spirit is active in every situation, with every priest and every parish - otherwise what hope is there. I trust not the wisdom of men, but the providence of God (even when I can't understand it).

Hopefully these comments will give a little more context and perspective on my previous remarks about spiritual fathers.

Fr David Moser

[John Charmley]

Dear Fr. David,

Yes, it was very helpful indeed; thank you for taking so much time and trouble.

In a sense the whole question of 'authority' rests beneath some of the posts in this discussion: 'by whose authority?' By the Grace conferred at Ordination, which operates, as you have described. Pastoral advice comes through the priest, and, as you have said, it will vary - and indeed must do so. Wisdom is often a cumulative phenomenon, and as a priest grows in his ministry and in the Spirit, he will be blessed, and what he might be able to advise at the start of his ministry might be as Spirit-filled as advice he gives later - but it will also be tempered and enriched by his own growth and experiences.

I am uncertain whether it is always the case that spiritual fathers have to be ordained, but perhaps those who know can advise us?

In Christ,

John

[Rick H.]

Purely and Simply Charismatic




I am uncertain whether it is always the case that spiritual fathers have to be ordained, but perhaps those who know can advise us?

In Christ,

John






Dear John,

Yes . . . "the question of authority," once again :( . . .

According to my studies/conversations, it seems plain to me, as another, who has said about the genuine spiritual father: 'there is nothing hierarchical about his function. And, that it is purely and simply charismatic. That it is sanctioned by the father's own personal holiness.'

This same one said that this is the way it has always been from the Beginning to today, from the time of the 'first religious' on the Egyptian and Syrian desserts, it seems to be thought some of the greatest spiritual fathers and "abbots" were "generally not priests."

In Christ.
Rick

[Celinda Grace]

And God cannot do this by his Spirit.

I should have said, "And God cannot do this by His Spirit alone." Thanks for catching my error Fr. Raphael.

In a previous post I mentioned that I saw three things going on at the cross: cleansing from the symptoms of sin, being redeemed from sin and death and being resurrected into the divine life. I think that the degree to which each person in the relationship is open to this life giving power is going to determine what is reaped from it.

In the formation of our own character -the learning of humility, dispassion, perseverence, faith etc. God uses all sorts of tough circumstances to teach us. An abusive spiritual father can be one of these, and maybe this is what Fr. Raphael is getting at when he mentions people being saved by this. I imagine that those who humble themselves and obey in such circumstances reap a reward of virtue because of God at work in their own soul. In this case the door is open between the child and God and the spiritual father is part of God's 'scenery' in their life, helping to cleanse them from the passions.

I think though there is another level to be looked at.

From one of Moather Gavrilia's spiritual children (The Ascetic of Love)

Her logos was always from the Holy Scriptures. Direct tangible, redemptive....We would ask her to explain where and why we had fallen or were hurting and she would reveal the reasons...In every one of our falls, she ws there to help us stand up again. And then she would explain why we stumbled with that delicate wisdom which made us believe that in spite of our defeat everything would turn out well next time. For it was the Lord Who was both healing and binding our wounds. In spite of our battered egos, our bruised hearts filled with courage once again, glorified God....She annulled your own will with such simplicity that, curiously enough instead of resenting it, you felt quite happy! Anyway she never preached obedience as an end in itself. She never demanded it. I remember her saying: "What is the good of obeying, if you do not love? What is the use of being a lifeless robot."

I would imagine that in such a relationship, once one has been pulled out of temptation and set back on one's feet a few times a tremendous amount of trust and love would grow. Not because of anything intrinsic in the guide but because one finds God there. In this trust the fear that so often keeps us from God is disarmed and in being loved we learn to love.

In a case like this the spiritual guide is involved not just in developing virtue but opening the door of another's heart to God. It is not a matter of the spiritual guide just being a vehicle for cleansing of the passions, now the guide is helping redeem the child from sin and death. In this the child is brought to the place of being able to live in the life of the trinity to a greater degree.


"I am chilled to the bone as I think about the one who would ... blindly trust their spiritual life to anyone . . ."

Rick talks about trust. I do not think that trust develops blindly. In my own life I have noticed that though I can choose to obey, I cannot choose to trust. Trust only comes when I have met with that which has proven itself trustworthy.

I can have faith that a chair will hold me up and thus make the move to sit down. I will not trust the chair until after I have sat in it and experienced its support.

Trust grows out of true knoweldge and true knowledge out of a willing faith. Trust is faith fully formed in the heart.

What can develop blindly is an emotional or intellectual dependency on the spiritual guide where the child is depending on the spiritual guide as a security blanket against the inevitable struggles inherant in the spiritual life. I remember from Elder Sophrony's book, On Prayer that he talked about having to pray over whether to give psychological comfort or a true word of God to those he was caring for. It depended on his discernment of their strength.

Maybe what is chilling when we consider 'blindly trusting' our spiritual life to another is that we are afraid that God will not be in the relationship and that therefore we will develop a dependeny on the person that will kill our spiritual growth. Anyone who is truly seeking God will sense the tendency within themselves to get trapped in accepting easy answers and protection from pain. The problem then is not with the spiritual guide but with our own fear of ourselves.

[Father David Moser]

I am uncertain whether it is always the case that spiritual fathers have to be ordained, but perhaps those who know can advise us?


This reminds me of another point that perhaps will clarify the issue more.

That is the meaning of the term "spiritual father". In monastic life "spiritual father" has a particular meaning as regards the monastic community. To be a spiritual father is specific obedience given to certain persons within the community. I don't really know if it is always necessarily the same as "confessor" (perhaps some more monastically sophisticated and/or experienced can answer that point).

In the world we have a "spiritual father" who is our priest and regular confessor. However there are also those (often, but not always monstics) who are recognized as very experienced elders (and eldresses) in the spiritual life. They may or may not be confessors or even ordained to clerical rank but they provide spiritual guidance. These are very special (and uncommon) persons within the life of the Church. Sometimes their spiritual gifts are well known and they are recognized as "living saints" but not always (sometimes they remain "hidden" to all but their closest spiritual children). These persons are often referred to as spiritual fathers/mothers - but this is not in the same sense as the parish priest/confessor. It is to this "class" of spiritual father/mother that the above statements and warnings about the care in choosing a spiritual father are made. It is not "required" that all Orthodox Christians have such a spiritual father or mother - but often those who are at a certain point in their spiritual lives seek out such a person. This relationship is entirely voluntary on both sides in that the spiritual father accepts a person as their spiritual child and the person accepts this elder as their spiritual father. This is different than the normal parish situation where the parish priest/confessor is given to the people as their father and the flock is given to the priest as his spiritual children.

I have known many people who claim to be "elders" and some who really are. My experience as a parish priest is that those who are truly elders (not by my judgment, but by the evidence of their lives and the results of their spiritual action) rarely, if ever conflict with the direction of the parish priest and it is a joy to have parishioners visit these spiritual giants for direction or advice. OTOH, there are many "wannabe" elders out there who wish they were spiritual elders and even "advertise" themselves as such. Very often, in my experience, there will be almost immediate friction between the parish priest and the elder with the latter demanding some kind of declaration of loyalty, placing obedience to himself over that of the parish priest. One of the "qualifications" of these genuine elders, I think, is that of harmony and peace. Their direction should never (imo) create chaos and confusion, but will always be in complete accord with the traditional life of the Church. There are parish priests as well who demand strict obedience and loyalty to themselves over all others. This too is not good and brings chaos and confusion into the Church. The parish priest should be as a loving compassionate father - not lenient, but neither should he be too strict, rather finding the middle road on the path of salvation.

Well, for all you budding psychiatrists out there, I have probably revealed a lot about myself, my past experiences and the forces that drive me in the above discourse. Let me wrap it up here by saying that the apparent disconnect between Rick's position and my own seems to me to be one wherein I am using the term "spiritual father" in the more ordinary and organic sense of the "father of the parish family and pastor of the flock" whereas Rick and others seem to be using the term in the sense of the "spiritual elder/eldress" the "spiritual giants" who are the uncommon and valuable gems of the Church. If we were to continue with this dual meaning in mind, I have no doubt that we would find absolutely no disageement. Alas, however, I am out of time for now.

Fr David Moser

[Rick H.]

Dear Father David, Celinda, Effie, and All:

Thank you for the above post Fr. David, I think you have drawn a very helpful distinction for us all. Possibly, one day in the near future, we can continue this present discussion in the An American Monasticism? thread? Unless, it keeps going here that is :) . . . possibly some have noticed this thread, like it's predecessor (A.O.) seems to have a life of its own . . . and, at times, as some who have tried to steer it have found, it is not unlike trying to steer an inner-tube while going down a steep snow covered hill. So we will see, for many, there is such a huge link between a personal spiritual practice and a spiritual father that it may not be possible to just move to the former. I don't know.

Actually, I would like to continue with some of the issues that have been raised here, not the least of which is the 'abusive spiritual father' (I had a pastor friend who was in the ministry at one time, he liked to say, speaking of Balaam's beast, "If God can use a jackass then I guess he can use me too--possibly this enters into it), but, as well in the other thread, possibly we could take a closer look at just exactly what God is saying, in the Old Testament, when he repeats, over and over, the call to trust/betach in Yahweh.

And, it also occurs to me that we are approaching page twenty in this thread like a runaway freight train. For any who don't know, a thread gets locked up when it reaches the length of twenty pages. So what I'm getting at here is unless I am outvoted by the gang, I would like to take another crack at having a discussion about a personal spiritual practice before we say good-bye to this one.

Any, who have thoughts about some of the most recent posts here, please feel free to keep going with those (I guess we can start another thread when this one wraps up). But, possibly, I can retrieve one of Celinda's earlier posts from today and give it another play. I love these threads when they really get rocking, but unfortunately, at times some really good and helpful posts get buried and forgotten in the stampede . . . like this one:





I woke up this morning with a number of thoughts running through my head and find that they mirror some of the topics being discussed here.

It was noted that gerneralitites do not help us when it comes to our own particular situation, yet it was equally noted that the unique council we recieve, and our unique spiritual lessons and practice cannot be made into a generality for all.
What then is the point of discussion and how might we approach it here?

It seems to me the best we can do is show how general principles have been put into practice in our own lives and try to discern whether in our own situation God has used this to help us grow spiritually and how. In talking about the saints we say that they make the eternal plan of God visible in a real and living way. We may not be saints in any full sense of the word, but we have each had God touch our lives. In sharing how He has helped us to grow maybe we can be Spiritual brothers and sisters, making God visible to each other.

It is the gift of the Spiritual Father to be a vehicle through which growth occurs directly as his own wisdom and experience gets applied to our lives. However, as Spiritual brothers and sisters we should not presume to try to apply our own experience to others but only show forth our own experience, in this we can help each other grow indirectly.

As spiritual brothers and sisters we should not judge whether or not some experience or practice is helpful or harmful to another. Also as spiritual brothers and sisters we should not automatically think that because something has not worked for someone else it will not work for us or that if something has worked for another it will work for us.

In my own life I often find when I hear about how God has worked in other people's lives that God helps me to sift through and find the gem that is relevant to my own situation. Maybe we can just have the attitude that we are throwing gems and let those who will catch them.



Thanks very much for this Celinda! And, this one is too long for anything else, but I think Effie was kind enough to throw us some gems, as she has shared some information about her personal spiritual practice in a recent post, which is very beautiful.

A personal spiritual practice anyone? I have my "sifter" ready.

In Christ,
Rick

PS What's up with these meditation tapes?

[Karena Hryniuk]

"I am chilled to the bone as I think about the one who would ... blindly trust their spiritual life to anyone . . ."

Adding to your vast array of above posts Rick.

It is important to be very careful and conscious in choosing a Spiritual Father. Rightly so, there may be some element of compatible personalities, spiritual attraction (in the most decent of ways) or even common sense involved that guides us in choosing a Spiritual Father or any Christian kinship we have during the course of our lives.

If a person is on a correct path where both sides of humanity and spirituality are working in conjunction with Christ as the centerpiece the 'correct' people will be presented unto us by the grace of the Holy Spirit. Before some are found there can often be times of confusion that can lead us into inappropriate relationships, and there never really is any kind of human logic or decision made that creates a harmonious relationship of perfection. But through the stages up the ladder of faith that hold contentment, peace, freedom and finally deliverance we do gain wisdom and (hopefully) get better at making these choices.

Being blind is not a good idea however we should never underestimate the flow of Gods grace or the Truthful essence of the Holy Spirit helping us in these decisions.

Forgive me if I have gotten somewhat off topic here but hopefully I hit our common ground of understanding on this one----

[Rick H.]

"Where the Rubber Meets the Road"

Dear Father David,

You have been most generous with your time here in this thread, for which I, and I'm sure others, are most grateful. Especially, as it relates to the subject of spiritual direction you are bringing in much light at a high rate of speed! In your last post, you helped those, like me, who are limping through this learning process (as it relates to an historic Orthodox Christian approach), to understand a distinction between the parish priest, and another "class" of spiritual director as you say.

And, I think, what you have shared, is clear to most in this conversation concerning the following:

************************************************** **********

I.) We have a spiritual father who is our priest and regular confessor.

II.) And, there are also spiritual fathers who are elders in the spiritual life-- these may or may not be our confessors or even ordained to clerical rank.

************************************************** **********

However, what is not clear is what you have said about the spiritual father who is not a local parish priest. When, in your last post, you say:

It is to this "class" of spiritual father/mother that the above statements and warnings about the care in choosing a spiritual father are made.This seems to indicate that the warnings given above do not apply to a local parish priest, and that all priests are beyond reproach/question, and are exempt from the above statements and warnings given to us by the saints, and our Lord Jesus Christ. Is this what you mean to say?

Also, as you have shared speaking of the 'second group':

It is not "required" that all Orthodox Christians have such a spiritual father or motherI have been under the impression that we should all have a spiritual father or a spiritual mother of this sort. A spiritual director who has time to invest in our lives in a very close and personal way. Possibly, I am immersed in the minority view here once again?

And, as a follow up to this, when I read:

These are very special (and uncommon) persons within the life of the Church.which, I think you also referred to as "spiritual giants," this has really confused me about the concept of spiritual direction. As I read of the great Orthodox Christian Tradition in this area, I think I am seeing the opposite of what is being said here.

If we are saying this second group is "uncommon" as it relates to the "more ordinary sense," and right now there is about one priest for each three counties (or more) in every state in the US, then what are we saying about the availability and the state of being of spiritual direction? Yes, "where the rubber meets the road" . . . I am used to seeing my priest with very red eyes at times, as he zooms in off the road, to meet with me at a local coffee shop, and then when he gets a call on his phone, I watch him get into his car and "zoom away."

So, possibly you see why I hope what you are saying is not true.

Because, if what you have said is true, then what are we really saying about the model?

. . . and there is more, but this is enough for now, and a good stopping point right here I think, for now.



If what you have said is true, then what are we really saying as it relates to both spiritual direction and a personal spiritual practice?

In Christ,
Rick

[Celinda Grace]

I have been under the impression that we should all have a spiritual father or a spiritual mother of this sort. A spiritual director who has time to invest in our lives in a very close and personal way. Possibly, I am immersed in the minority view here once again?

Rick,

I don't have time right now to reread through the whole spiritual fatherhood thread but I remember reading there exactly what Fr. David said so I would assume then that you are in the minority view.

I think there are many things in our life that we long for and close relationships of this sort are one of them. However, I also think that often with the things we long for, we have to ask if we are ready for them.

I remember praying and asking God to give me more love for people -certainly a good request. As I thought about it though I realized that if I had more love, I would need the wisdom to apply it. In order to have the wisdom to apply it I would need the restraint inherant in wisdom. Etc, etc. I ended up having to humbly confess that I was not a fit vessel for more of God's love.

As Fr. Raphael noted and I was trying to explore and expand, it takes a certain amount of openness to God and readiness on the part of the spiritual child in order for this type of relationship to be beneficial.

One of the truths that I have seen over and over in my life is that we have to live with an open hand. That is what faith is about. We cannot demand things of God. He has to teach us not to be desperate, grasping children that steal for ourselves the things that are His, trying to use them our way and according to our need. The greater the gift, the greater the temptation to grab and steal it. We must be learn to be content with what we have before we can be given more. God does not want to spoil us and make us into self-centered brats, He wants to grow us so that we can stand in faith and freedom. (not the freedom to do as we will, but the freedom of obedience to Christ)

In the case of spiritual fathers, it makes sense to me that until one is content and happy with whatever priest one has it would be dangerous for God to give one a spiritual father/mother of the other sort. I think we have to assume that God is in control in His church and that there is enough guidance available for those who are ready and/or who need it, and where it may seem to fall short, He is making up the difference and teaching faith to those who feel they lack.

[Rick H.]

"Well, I've been taught . . ."





I don't have time right now to reread through the whole spiritual fatherhood thread but I remember reading there exactly what Fr. David said so I would assume then that you are in the minority view.



Dear Celinda,

Thanks very much for your last post whereby you make many excellent comments for us to consider. As it relates to your confirmation of my suspicion that I am in the minority view, I wonder what the understanding of some others is on this.

Maybe, while we wait for Father David to respond to the other two possibly more heavyweight points, and without repeating the other thread that you mention. I wonder if any of our crack researchers here have any quotes from patristic theology or monastic study that speak to this question?

From where I stand, this is not a hill that I am willing to die on by any means. Regarding my present position on this matter, which is one of being in the sand more than not, I would like to see something more concrete. I have been taught to think (there's that expression again!) that we are all to have a spiritual father/mother, depending on our sex--men mentoring men, and women mentoring women.

This is the impression that I seem to be under; however, I do not seem to be backing it up with anything other than wind at the present. So, I wonder if there are any out there who can help us in this area based on say something from the saints or church fathers that speaks to this question? Or possibly even the Scriptures may speak to this subject. I wonder if we have any students of the Bible out there who can dig out some helpful info that speaks 'directly' to this subject. In fact, if some can provide a biblical position on this matter, then I can show this to my friends who try to tell me that Orthodox Bible study is like motorcycle doors, and then they won't have a leg to stand on with their assertion.

In Christ,
Rick

[Father David Moser]

This seems to indicate that the warnings given above do not apply to a local parish priest, and that all priests are beyond reproach/question, and are exempt from the above statements and warnings given to us by the saints, and our Lord Jesus Christ. Is this what you mean to say?

Not really. Certainly parish priests can be criticized - we are after fallible people with our own weaknesses, deficits, sins, failures (and worse these things not only affect us personally - but they affect our whole flock). All I'm saying is that the great care and caution expressed in selecting a spiritual father is more applicable to establishing the voluntary relationship with an elder as opposed to your relationship with your parish priest. It is said that you can pick your friends, but you can't pick your family. Your parish priest is "family"whereas the elder is more in the "friend" (or wise uncle) category.


I have been under the impression that we should all have a spiritual father or a spiritual mother of this sort. A spiritual director who has time to invest in our lives in a very close and personal way. Possibly, I am immersed in the minority view here once again?

I don't know that this is either possible or practical. For some people, such a spiritual guide is necessary - and to those, God will provide. For many, simply to pray, give alms, attend the Divine Services, & receive the sacraments is more than sufficient for their spiritual life. Remember that much of what is written about the necessity of a spiritual elder is written by monastics for monastics. Monastics live a life of greater spiritual intensity - withdrawing from the world and almost purposefully and aggressively combating the demons. For such a life, a spiritual guide is indeed almost a necessity. Those of us in the world do not live such an intense and focused spiritual life - because we have not only our spiritual responsibilities, but also the responsibilities of our daily lives. It is therefore less often necessary to have the additional spiritual guidance that an elder would provide. Again, this is all only my opinion and the result of my observation of Orthodox life from the pov of a parish priest



If we are saying this second group is "uncommon" as it relates to the "more ordinary sense," and right now there is about one priest for each three counties (or more) in every state in the US, then what are we saying about the availability and the state of being of spiritual direction?

St Ignatius Brianchaninov said that in his day there were no longer such spirit bearing elders given to the Church as in the early days of monasticism. He tells us that neither the life of solitude nor the life of obedience to an elder are given to us in these latter days as we are too weak, our faith and zeal too faded. If that was the case in his day - during the mid 19th century when among his own contemporaries we find the likes of St Seraphim of Sarov and the elders of Optina - how much more is this true today. Such spirit bearing elders must be rare indeed.

I would strongly suggest on this topic to read the 10th, 12th and 13th Chapters of the Arena. 10 is about reading the fathers, 12 and 13 deal with living in obedience to an elder. St Igantii certainly gives the indication that even in his day among monastics, such a life was desirable but rare. And we live more than a century later, non-monastics in the world. What indeed does that say about the availability of such spirit bearing guides?

Fr David Moser

[Effie Ganatsios]

Re priests and spiritual fathers

I’m going to relate my own experience and hope it will be of interest to others.

My spiritual father, the person I go to is a priest, a family friend, a married man and a father.

He loves life, he drinks wine (as everyone does here), he has fun. I remember when I first met him at a get together at the home of my brother-in-law (my b-i-l’s daughter is married to his son). His gaiety and easy manner made an impression on me. I’m quite shy (that probably doesn’t come through in these posts…..) and at one point he turned to me and said that he hoped I wouldn’t misunderstand his behavior. I replied that on the contrary I liked and appreciated it. Happy, family fun.

Now that the children have married and we, as a family, have spent so much time together I trust him completely. I have witnessed his honest piety- hypocrisy is something unknown to him, his pain when someone suffers (he was actually having physical health problems because of his reaction to people’s suffering when he was the priest at the Aghios Georgios (St. George) church which is part of our cemetery. I have seen the way he is always on call whenever anyone needs him, I have seen the respect and love he has for the Orthodox faith.

How can I not respect such a person, how can I not entrust him with my problems, how can I not rely on him to guide me and to explain to me in what way I can improve. I think I’ve mentioned the fact that a couple of years ago my son nearly died. He and his wife were with us every day. This priest is not an elder of the church, he is a simple priest.

A few years ago a friend (the one I mentioned in a previous post who was a student of Father Paisios) advised me to go to the Bishop of Siatista who was truly a holy man, good, simple and full of God, in order for him to be my spiritual father. I didn’t go for one reason or another (mainly a feeling of unworthiness) and I have to admit that I regret it. He died last year and is deeply mourned because of the great love that everyone had for him. Men like this are very rare though.

One thing, that is not part of our discussion, but that I just remembered about Father Paisios and this bishop, is something that I want to share. I know of course that those who are close to God have unusual gifts – gifts that they don’t like to talk about. I remember my friend telling me of going to see Father Paisios in his little hut on the Holy Mountain and being given a message to his friend the Bishop by him. To his surprise though when he returned and visited the old bishop to give the message he found that somehow and in some way the Bishop already knew all about it. Father Paisios had this same gift. As I said, rare men and great in the faith.

Effie

[John Charmley]

Dear Effie,


As I said, rare men and great in the faith.

If I may make so bold, your priest sounds another such rare man great in the faith, and I, for one, am in your debt for hearing about him.

Being touched by such individuals is an important part of one's journey. My wife, who is neither Orthodox nor a Christian, has commented many times on the Orthodox people she has met through my involvement with the British Orthodox Church: 'they are not', she will often say, 'the kind of Christians I am used to, there is something about them.' Indeed, there is, and in just being who he is, my own bishop bears a great and powerful witness to the Risen Lord; it is not possible to be in his company without being struck by that 'something'. Your words, 'honest piety' sum it up wonderfully. Being in the presence of such people makes one feel somehow better for the experience.

As it bears upon the wider theme of which this is part, and on Rick's search for personal spiritual practice, this, from Irenaeus Against Heresies Book 3, chapter 27 seemed relevant:

A sound mind, and one which does not expose its possessor to danger, and is devoted to piety and the love of truth, will eagerly meditate upon those things which God has placed within the power of mankind, and has subjected to our knowledge, and will make advancement in [acquaintance with] them, rendering the knowledge of them easy to him by means of daily study.

Sound advice, I hope. Again, with thanks for a beautiful and edifying post.

In Christ,

John

[John Charmley]

Dear Rick,

I have been taught to think (there's that expression again!) that we are all to have a spiritual father/mother, depending on our sex--men mentoring men, and women mentoring women.


On that subject, this thread http://www.monachos.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1354
has some useful comments, which may save us from reinventing parts of wheel, and, at the same time, help us focus on the issues you and Fr. David were so helpfully discussing earlier.

I am glad you liked the Irenaeus, it jumped out at me as I was reading; it is certainly worth pondering.

In Christ,

John

[Photios]

Hi, as you know I am quite new here. I have only been an Anglican for a year now, and recently embraced the more catholic/orthodox teachings of the church. In doing so I wanted to be faithful and seek a more ascetic lifestyle. So tonight, I asked a very faithful and devout priest if he would be my spiritual director, and he has agreed that he will but that we should pray and fast this week for guidance and grace to be obedient. And we will meet about it soon. I was quite excited, and when I came home tonight and began to pray a very strong amount of fear came over me, and I experienced some images and sounds in my thoughts that were not much better. I was a protestant prior to this, and so I really have no understanding of how to deal with these things. Please pray for me, and if you have any advice I'd greatly appreciate it.

a sinner,

Levi

[Father David Moser]

tonight, I asked a very faithful and devout priest if he would be my spiritual director, and he has agreed that he will but that we should pray and fast this week for guidance and grace to be obedient. And we will meet about it soon. I was quite excited, and when I came home tonight and began to pray a very strong amount of fear came over me, and I experienced some images and sounds in my thoughts that were not much better. I was a protestant prior to this, and so I really have no understanding of how to deal with these things. Please pray for me, and if you have any advice I'd greatly appreciate it.

You have chosen a spiritual director and are under his guidance. This question that you ask is exactly the kind of thing that he will help you with. Because this is a pastoral practice, it would be imprudent for anyone else to suggest how to handle your spiritual life.

That being said, what you experience is nothing unique - nearly everyone goes through similar experiences. The fathers tell us that when such thoughts and temptations occur, we should reject them out of hand. The life of St Anthony the Great provides an extreme example of these kinds of temptations and describes how he dealt with them. At the risk of being imprudent, I will suggest to you that your only true recourse in such a situation is prayer.

Fr David Moser

[John Charmley]

Dear Levi,

Hi, as you know I am quite new here. I have only been an Anglican for a year now, and recently embraced the more catholic/orthodox teachings of the church. In doing so I wanted to be faithful and seek a more ascetic lifestyle. So tonight, I asked a very faithful and devout priest if he would be my spiritual director, and he has agreed that he will but that we should pray and fast this week for guidance and grace to be obedient. And we will meet about it soon. I was quite excited, and when I came home tonight and began to pray a very strong amount of fear came over me, and I experienced some images and sounds in my thoughts that were not much better. I was a protestant prior to this, and so I really have no understanding of how to deal with these things. Please pray for me, and if you have any advice I'd greatly appreciate it.

a sinner,

Levi

As a former Anglican I can appreciate where you are coming from, and hope that you will be able to find within Anglicanism what you seek; I say this with some feeling, never quite having found it within the Anglican communion.

Quiet your mind and do as he has advised; pray, fast, and open yourself to the Spirit; more than that few of us manage most of the time, I suspect.

In Christ,

John

[Andreas Moran]

[QUOTE=Father David Moser;46954]


St Ignatius Brianchaninov said that in his day there were no longer such spirit bearing elders given to the Church as in the early days of monasticism. He tells us that neither the life of solitude nor the life of obedience to an elder are given to us in these latter days as we are too weak, our faith and zeal too faded. If that was the case in his day - during the mid 19th century when among his own contemporaries we find the likes of St Seraphim of Sarov and the elders of Optina - how much more is this true today. Such spirit bearing elders must be rare indeed.

I would strongly suggest on this topic to read the 10th, 12th and 13th Chapters of the Arena. 10 is about reading the fathers, 12 and 13 deal with living in obedience to an elder. St Igantii certainly gives the indication that even in his day among monastics, such a life was desirable but rare. And we live more than a century later, non-monastics in the world. What indeed does that say about the availability of such spirit bearing guides?

..............

This quote from Fr David's post prompts me to share something said recently by one of the Fathers at Holy Trinity St Sergius Lavra. He said that Staretz Kyrill is very seriously ill and lies paralysed, rarely seeing anyone. My wife asked who would take his place. This Father replied that there was no one in Russia to take his place, no staretz as we all understand the term. I find this deeply disturbing. When in its Christian history did Russia not have elders and eldresses? If the Father is right (and as one close to Staretz Kyrill, he ought to know), what does this portend for Russia and the world?

[Mary]

This quote from Fr David's post prompts me to share something said recently by one of the Fathers at Holy Trinity St Sergius Lavra. He said that Staretz Kyrill is very seriously ill and lies paralysed, rarely seeing anyone. My wife asked who would take his place. This Father replied that there was no one in Russia to take his place, no staretz as we all understand the term. I find this deeply disturbing. When in its Christian history did Russia not have elders and eldresses? If the Father is right (and as one close to Staretz Kyrill, he ought to know), what does this portend for Russia and the world?

Wow. My heart's cry exactly. After watching the movie Ostrov, which, I don't know if it's fictional or not and it doesn't matter, the only question hammering in my heart was: Who would take his place? All those hundreds of people who came to him for help, even if it was just a few words, they still received help. Now they had no one to go to. Why is there no one to take their places? Don't we still need such people? Makes me feel like a lost sheep... and I don't like that feeling.

Mary

[Andreas Moran]

There are, obviously, spiritual fathers, but an elder is someone else. We saw a number of elders of late such as Sophrony, Paisios, Joseph, and Porphyrios, and they help by their prayers, but is anyone of their like around now?

[Nina]

There are, obviously, spiritual fathers, but an elder is someone else. We saw a number of elders of late such as Sophrony, Paisios, Joseph, and Porphyrios, and they help by their prayers, but is anyone of their like around now?

Please do not worry! From the book of Schemanun Macaria, we read that Panagia said that God will not take her until someone else would take her place - because Schemanun Macaria suffered daily so much she yearned to be with God and expressed this fervent wish to Panagia always when She came to visit. From this we see the Providence of God and His infinite love for the world. Also when Elder Paisios was asked if there were holy people around in our times, he said that we should not pay attention to this question because it is a temptation. And he proclaimed that there were several of them in the area where the eye could see, not to mention the number in the entire world.

[Father David Moser]

... He said that Staretz Kyrill is very seriously ill and lies paralysed, rarely seeing anyone. My wife asked who would take his place. This Father replied that there was no one in Russia to take his place, no staretz as we all understand the term. I find this deeply disturbing. When in its Christian history did Russia not have elders and eldresses?


Wow. My heart's cry exactly. ... Why is there no one to take their places? Don't we still need such people? Makes me feel like a lost sheep... and I don't like that feeling.


There are, obviously, spiritual fathers, but an elder is someone else. We saw a number of elders of late such as Sophrony, Paisios, Joseph, and Porphyrios, and they help by their prayers, but is anyone of their like around now?

Our Lord has promised that He will never leave us nor forsake us. He will not leave us bereft of His providence. Yes, the enemy may become strong and may even appear to have overcome the Church - but even in the greatest of our trials, God is with us. Never forget this - God is with us. Whenever there is a need for someone to guide and direct the Church, God will raise him us and reveal him to us. Even if we do not know of or see another elder or spiritual father, that does not mean that we are impoverished - how could we be for we possess the grace of God. It could be that such elders who will come and replace these ones are still hidden from us for their time is not yet come. It could be that they are still struggling in the deep desert (whether that be the actual desert or simply in seclusion in a monastery. Remember the words of the Lord to Elijah. The Prophet, having fled the wrath of Jezebel stood in prayer saying to God, "I alone am left, and the seek my life to take it away" - and the Lord God answered him saying "there are yet 7000 men in Israel who have not bowed the knee to Baal..." God alone knows the secrets of all men and when there is need of such an elder in a particular place and a particular time - God will reveal such a one to His children.

Do not be afraid - our Lord will not abandon us but will provide all that we need.

Fr David Moser

[Mary]

Do not be afraid - our Lord will not abandon us but will provide all that we need.

Fr David Moser

Thank you, Fr David.

I suppose it's my lack of trust that causes my fear(s). I know in my head that He will never abandon us. Why is it so hard to remember that in my heart?

I've never gone hungry and I've never been in want. He has protected me from danger and illnesses to such an extent that I find myself feeling guilty for all my good fortune. But there's one thing I've always lacked - a person to talk to. Every once in a while I've found someone who is willing to listen. And in my excitement, I 'strangle' them, and destroy the relationship.

And I feel guilty for wanting someone who is always available, because, my friend has no one. Not even as many as I do - I can still get online and talk to total strangers and sometimes find help that way. And I'm sure there are countless others in the world who have no one, and have even given up hope of ever having anyone care and listen to them. I don't want to have more good things than my friend does. She has suffered much her entire life, and she continues to suffer - and I don't mean financially, etc. Relationships. It's always relationships that mean the most and that destroy you the most.

Sometimes I think I'd rather be sick or homeless rather than lonely. But I know I'm a pathetic coward, and if I were sick and homeless, I'd die very fast. How was it that so many saints were able to live all alone in deserts and forests, etc? Did they not need people? Or is it that God met their need for people? If He did (which He probably did) - then what must I do so He'll meet my needs too?

forgive me for my meandering thoughts.

Mary

[Effie Ganatsios]

God will never abandon us.

There are people living today that no-one knows about who live quiet, godly lives. There are people who truly put God's will first in their lives, which means that they put the interests of others ahead of their own.

I don't despair because I know that God's angels are working for us.

Watching TV news reports (something I no longer do) gives us the impression that the world is filled only with evil or silly people who have no values in their lives. Disaster and tragedy and sensation are what raise the TV ratings.

Why can't there be a TV station that airs only positive news - people who spend their whole lives helping others, people who put their lives on the line everytime they rescue someone from some crisis or another.

I download quite a lot of old books from Gutenberg and one thing that has made an impression on me is the fact that a lot of these books emphasize the good in people. Today we emphasize the bad.

We were given the Holy Spirit so that we would never be alone and without help.