Faith, Spirit, and the question of 'mystical experiences'

[Effie Ganatsios]

Rick, yesterday my latest batch of books arrived via courier and last night I started reading one of the books I had ordered - Elder Paisios – Prophesies and Teachings. I think I mentioned in an old message that I don’t believe in coincidences and so I wasn’t surprised that the first thing I read had a connection with what we were discussing yesterday.

Stellios Papathemelis, a former Minister of the Interior, wrote the foreword and I found the following so interesting that I translated it this morning – before my coffee………………I’m drinking it now……………….


“ Man carries 2 gigantic powers within him. The power of reason and the power of faith.

With the first he draws near to “the created”. With the second he draws near to the Creator.

Down through the ages man has sought God. Either because an inner need compelled him to “seek that which is mightier than thee”, or because his reason (logiki) compelled him to explore “ the first need/cause/occasion”(aiteia) – (my translation here is a bit wobbly but Papathemelis is obviously using an ancient Greek reasoning and wording and means, I think, the reason behind our existence – he then continues….)

“or, mainly, because his faith allows him to experience a relationship with God….”

Papathemelis concluded his foreword with an anecdote by Kazantsakis and I included it here because of the reference a while back in this thread to God and nature.

“Two of Greece’s foremost modern authors- two children of the world - Kazantsakis and Sikelianos - arrived at The Garden of the Panayeia (that is what Mt. Athos, Holy Mountain is called by the Orthodox. The Garden of the Theotokos. ) They strived for 40 days – their own words – to find “the miracle” and God. As they were leaving the courtyard of a humble cell at Dafnis (Laurel or Bay), Sikelianos found himself in front of an almond tree in blossom.

Full of wonder he quoted to his fellow-pilgrim : I asked the almond tree “Brother, tell me of God. And the almond tree blossomed.”…”

Sikelianos was quoting St. Francis of Assisi I believe.

The words in parentheses in the above text are my own words of explanation.

Effie

Nothing to do with what we’re talking about but today the weather is finally cooler and as I closed the shutters and French doors on my front terrace because the sun has come up,I noticed that the flowering Constantinople acacia I have in my front garden has spread it’s delicate aroma through my front rooms. It’s such a beautiful, beautiful day, Glory to God……………………….

[Peter Farrington]

It's raining here in the UK still. Bad floods in many places.

But Glory to God also. Rain always makes me think of the Holy Spirit and my sins being washed away.

Do you know if the Elder Paisios book you are quoting from available in English?

Peter

[Effie Ganatsios]

Peter, I don't think so. It has just been published for the first time by a Greek publishing house. I saw it being advertised on a TV programme and I ordered it together with some others that interested me.

I've only just started it - I read the foreword and part of chapter 1 last night and am looking forward to the rest. I'm in the middle of reading something else and want to finish that first but I couldn't resist starting it. I thought it would be interesting for me to read as I've got a lot of books about him - some written by him and some that others have written. There are quite a few books about him in English and if I remember correctly, a little has been written about his prophesies.

He was a very humble man and didn't allow videos and tape recordings to be made of him. It's sad that today so many people are taking advantage of someone who was so devoted to God.

A couple of months ago, in a religious book store I found 4 tape recordings of what the cover said were "the sayings of Elder Paisios". They were quite expensive and when I played them at home I found that each cassette had about 5 mins of a very badly recorded discussion the Elder was having with someone. Obviously someone secretly taped a brief conversation, split it up into 4 parts and put it on cassettes. The sad part is that each casette has only these few minutes of the Elder and the rest consists of an ieromonk speaking and bits and pieces of church music. Isn't this ieromonk aware of what he is doing?

In one of his books, Elder Paisios wrote that what was happening on the Islands of Tinos and Aegina is wrong. He said that these holy places were being commercialized. The same thing appears to be happening to him now that he has departed.

Effie

The weather has indeed gone crazy. Heatwave here (nice today though) and floods in north Europe. We always have very heavy snow falls in winter but this year we had two light falls - hardly covered the ground and soon melted.

This is unheard of here - it has never happened before in recorded history.

[Celinda Grace]

“The same striving for "holy and divine feelings," the same openness and willingness to be "seized" by a spirit, the same seeking not for God but for "spiritual consolations," the same self-intoxication which is mistaken for a "state of grace," the same incredible ease with which one becomes "contemplative" or "mystical," the same "mystical revelations" and pseudospiritual states. These are the common characteristics of all who are in this particular state of spiritual deception.”


Which is to say that the practices of other non-western cultures may contain real insights about the reality of the human being as a psycho-somatic creature. But central to Orthodoxy is how we relate to this temple of the Holy Spirit.

Effie, et al.



Mystical experiences in the orthodox faith are given to those whose souls are given fully to God. If we all had mystical experiences because we “cleansed our minds of thoughts” and breathed deeply for 10 mins a day, then we would all be saints


I think that you have misunderstood the two quotes at the top of this post. Mystical experiences are not only given to those whose souls are fully given to God . Many non-saints have mystical experiences. (BTW where did you get the first quote? I would be very interested to know. Very insightful)

As far as mystical experiences go I believe some people tend to be naturally more sensitive to the spiritual realm then others (just as some are more sensitive to sublte shadings of colors or smells etc.) , and also that certain practices, as Fr. Raphael said, can open people up to becoming more aware of their own intrinsic spiritual nature. This has nothing to do with the Holy Spirit, these people are not saints, it has everything to do with people getting in touch with a natural spiritual part of themselves.

It can be extremely difficult to tell the source of any spiritual or mystical experience -whether from the Holy Spirit, Satanic influence or natural spiritual abilities. The first quote though gives the key I think.

"the same seeking not for God but for "spiritual consolations,"

Especially in a day and age where real occult and mystical experiences are growing more and more common both inside and outside the church it is wise of those in the church to be able to judge rightly. (And just because a Christian is having mystical experiences doesn't automatically make them a saint)

1) we must judge by the motive of those involved not any experience they may have had
2) we must judge by the fruit: godly character in their lives, a Christ centered mind and heart etc., a full perception of the truth, a life lived sacrifically first for God and as a result of that for others, etc.
3) we must not judge that the person having the experiences is automatically either a saint or a demon worshipper -mostly they are simply people like us who have a greater sensitivity to spiritual things and should be accepted like any other Christian or non-Christain according to their desire for God and their knowledge --not what they have experienced.
4) A true saint is going to be one who is pursuing a path of ascetism. That means a willingness to give up not only earthly pursuits of pleasure but also the willingness to give up the pursuit of spiritual consolation.

Whether in riches or poverty, pleasure of pain, spiritual light or darkness, we should be content in all things and not look at any state as being better then any other. As Christians we must stay focused on one thing only -- To seek to do God's will however that may manifest itself in our lives.


“Every pleasure that presents itself to the senses (whether physical or spiritual senses), if it be not purely for the honor and glory of God, must be renounced and completely rejected for the love of Jesus Christ, Who in this life had no other pleasure, neither desired any, other than to do the will of His Father, which He called His meat and food.” St. John of the Cross, Ascent of Mt Carmel chapt 13(4)
Italics my addition

Just one last note on #3 above. When I was in college I had a number of friends in the new age/occult movement. One of the things preventing them from having any interest in Christianity was the total rejection of their experiences as satanic. People's experiences are part of themselves and someone suffering from spiritual delusion is no more satanic then someone pursuing a life of worldly pleasure. In fact often those who have some amount of spiritual sensitivity are far more senstive to lack of love and true respect shown toward them then those caught up in worldly pursuits. The idea is to introduce people to God not to try to judge or change people.

[Rick H.]

A Suppression of the Truth?

Dear Effie,

You are drinking coffee and telling me that your "latest" batch of books has just arrived, man, your stock just continues to rise! :) About 6.5 hours have passed since you have made your post to me, but I have just poured my first cup of regular coffee today. So, it's kind of funny how this works, in some ways it is like we are having a chat over coffee (not unlike the fellowship hall in my church). And, speaking of the local assembly that we have attended, we have a new priest now who has replaced my former priest who was transferred to Buffalo, NY. I will meet him this Sunday for the first time, God willing. I wonder if he likes coffee too? ;)

Thanks very much[!] for translating the writing of Stellios Papathemelis, of which I will quote the first part in the following:




Man carries 2 gigantic powers within him. The power of reason and the power of faith.

With the first he draws near to “the created”. With the second he draws near to the Creator.




And, then right with this I would like to join the quote your provided by Sikelianos (who it does sound like was quoting St. Francis of Assisi:




I asked the almond tree “Brother, tell me of God. And the almond tree blossomed.



And, here once again Effie, as I perceive it, you are masterfully showing that along with the concept of Logos/logoi in the Tradition of the Church . . . we see that faith has its reasons. And, I would like to travel down the latter path a bit.

Whether we are considering an 'integrative approach to defending Christianity' or whether we are 'in search of a true Orthodox spirituality ourselves' we see through your post that first ignorance and then separation are found by any who would attempt to draw an unhelpful distinction between reason and faith. It doesn't matter, does it? Regardless of whether one is attempting to evangelize or do Christian apologetics, or whether one is attempting to walk the path leading to theosis himself/herself by means of an integralist approach, or teach the Orthodox Way to another, the intellect is not the enemy of faith, when such things as the following are grasped in even a superficial way:




The wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth (Rom 1:18)



And, of these men who suppress the truth, Paul continues on to say:




Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts (Rom 1:24)

For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions (Rom 1:26)



But, Effie, for what reason did God give them over to a depraved mind? Why did these men experience the wrath of God and not the Love of God?

Why?

Because they did more than just suppress the truth, didn't they? They exchanged the truth for something else [!] . . .




They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshipped and served the creature rather than the Creator (Rom 1:25)



The righteous will live by faith, this could not possibly be more clear for any who have read the Scriptures! But, just as emphatically, we see in the Scriptures that there are reasons for our faith. One absolutely has to be completely deaf, dumb, and blind to not understand this even with our fallen nature. Or in other words one must "choose" as you say Effie . . . yes, definitely as you say "A matter of choice" . . . one must chose to be willfully ignorant of this very *simple* fact that is made evident to us and is innate--in us.

Aside from this innate aspect of a type of knowing God (in seed form or whatever metaphor one wants to use) If one can read and if one has an IQ over 30 points, then one knows faith has its reasons.

What an epistemology to think otherwise! But, it is clear to me that many Orthodox 'think' in order to "aquire an Orthodox Mindset" a dichotomy needs to be drawn between faith and reason--those who think this had better stay far away from the Scriptures.

I'm sorry, but this completely blows 'my mind.' Paul gets fired up quite often in his letter writing, and I can share both his very apparent passion and frustration that is more than apparent as he is writing in this passage of the letter to the saints in Rome. And, he makes it clear that the above suppressors and exchangers of the truth are without excuse--they are without defense. He makes it more than clear that God's power and nature CAN be clearly seen and understood through the creation--he says this is evident because God has made it evident to us,

So again there are reasons for our faith and it does NOT require a special initiation or any special state of grace to *understand* what is clearly seen. One has to willfully choose to be ignorant of this very simple precept. And, as it relates to a full-blown unbelief this does matter very very much, becuase as Paul indicates most clearly in this passage, just as faith has its reasons, unbelief has its consequenses.

But, its time for a second cup of joe here Effie, and since I seem to be sharing Paul's sentiments possibly a little too much here, I will just switch over to his words which will do a better job than I ever will be able to as it relates to reason and faith and the Orthodox Way (and 'aquiring an Orthodox Mindset'):




Rom 1:18-22



In Christ,
Rick

[Effie Ganatsios]

Hello Celinda.

You wrote : "I think that you have misunderstood the two quotes at the top of this post. Mystical experiences are not only given to those whose souls are fully given to God . Many non-saints have mystical experiences. (BTW where did you get the first quote? I would be very interested to know. Very insightful)

........This has nothing to do with the Holy Spirit, these people are not saints, it has everything to do with people getting in touch with a natural spiritual part of themselves.

.......It can be extremely difficult to tell the source of any spiritual or mystical experience -whether from the Holy Spirit, Satanic influence or natural spiritual abilities. The first quote though gives the key I think. "


I don’t think we disagree at all, but there are a couple of points that I would like to discuss.

I, perhaps did not express myself clearly. There are many kinds of spiritual or mystical experiences. I wanted to define the Orthodox or Christian if you will. I did not say that you had to be a saint to have a spiritual experience. I used the term “souls fully given to God” ,by which I meant those who strive to have a close relationship to God, who, as you say, are Christ-centred, who make many mistakes but try, each day, to come just a little closer to God. Those whose first priority in this life is God. I certainly didn't mean saints, especially since those who are truly saints never think of themselves as such and are the most humble of persons.

Celinda, what is the difference between "a natural spiritual part of themselves" as you said and the Holy Spirit?

Is it possible to have this natural spiritual part of ourselves without the presence of the Holy Spirit? Where do these so-called mystical experiences come from if not from the Holy Spirit? That's why I believe that only a person who is close to God can have a true spiritual experience. St. Paul had a spiritual experience sent to him by God/Holy Spirit before he became a Christian - God knew Paul's heart and how he loved God and used this method to draw him near.

You also say : “Mystical experiences are not only given to those whose souls are fully given to God.”

Given by whom if not by God and the Holy Spirit?

That’s why I said, as you did, and as quite a few of the Fathers have told us, we need to be extremely careful. Even the most saintly of the Orthodox have not trusted spiritual, or mystical experiences. That’s why those that actually experience the presence of Christ, or the Theotokos, or one of the saints consider themselves blessed and don’t like to even talk about it.

You write : “Especially in a day and age where real occult and mystical experiences are growing more and more common both inside and outside the church it is wise of those in the church to be able to judge rightly. (And just because a Christian is having mystical experiences doesn't automatically make them a saint)”

Yes, I totally agree and that is what I tried to say. The comment in parentheses shows me that I didn’t make myself clear concerning this.

I will try and find the Orthodox site I got the quote you wanted from. If I'm not mistaken I posted the address on one of my messages. Let me find it and I'll post it.

Effie

[Effie Ganatsios]

Rick, you wrote :

"But, Effie, for what reason did God give them over to a depraved mind? Why did these men experience the wrath of God and not the Love of God?"

Rick, I have to tell you that here I am in deep over my head!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I leave things like this to the theologians. I have trouble enough just trying to understand the simpler things.

I believe in a loving God, a God who is everything that is good and pure.

In the Lord's prayer there is the line : Lead us not into temptation. This line troubles me so much. I have read so many explanations of what this line means and I still can't understand it.

Now back to your message that I didn't finish reading. At my age if I don't immediately follow up on my thoughts they have a nasty habit of disappearing........... (a laughing smiley here please).

Effie

[Effie Ganatsios]

Yes! A really good post, Rick. You answered the question I wasn’t able to, which was really only a rhetorical question..... perhaps I should let some of my thoughts disappear sometimes....................and read the whole message before replying!

You wrote : “What an epistemology to think otherwise! But, it is clear to me that many Orthodox 'think' in order to "aquire an Orthodox Mindset" a dichotomy needs to be drawn between faith and reason--those who think this had better stay far away from the Scriptures.”

In the scriptures we truly see the type of men who fought for their beliefs, fighters and warriors! They weren’t afraid to call a spade a spade.


“Unbelief has its consequences” That’s true. It might not seem to because people who don’t believe in a higher Power take good care of themselves and live lives that seem idyllic to others. But there comes a point in every person’s life where he or she comes up against something dramatic – something they can’t do anything about. And this forces them to think deeply about themselves. And then all the possessions they have acquired, all the pleasures they have enjoyed become as nothing. Christ’s words are packed with wisdom and I have found that the older I get the more sense they make to me and the more I realize that only true words ever came out of his mouth. Rust and moths destroy all the wonderful (and expensive) things we fill our lives with. Those that don’t believe, think they will live forever, and the rich usually go to extraordinary lengths to extend their lives a few years or even a few days more. I feel such pity for these people - what are their last days like? Do they think of the people they have possibly harmed, do they think of the way their money could have been used to lessen the burden of their fellow men. Do they ever think of the thousands of children who starve every day. Unbelief has tragic consequences.


Effie

[Celinda Grace]

Celinda, what is the difference between "a natural spiritual part of themselves" as you said and the Holy Spirit?

If you read some of the non-Christian mystics or even Merton, it seems clear to me that we have some contact with spiritual reality as a result of being made in the image of God. It is this image that I am talking about as the natural spiritual part of ourselves. Sorry my terminology can get confusing at times.


That's why I believe that only a person who is close to God can have a true spiritual experience.

I am fine sticking with psuedospiritual experience for those that do not come from God. I did not make the terminology clear in my last post.

I do tend to differentiate in my own mind the fact that a Buddhist or other non-Christain monk can participate in becoming conscious of and healing to some degree their own God bearing image producing a type of virtue. (although not apart from Christ's finished work)

Let me try this analogy. Our image exists like a broken mirror. Now we can make the mirror whole so that the image is not distorted -ie someone can reflect to a greater degree God's character --love, kindness, humility, etc.

However, for the image to truly be an image it must move with the One being reflected in the mirror. This state of being a living image is not available apart from the indwelling Holy Spirit. No one can truely do God's will apart from the Holy Spirit within them. Also it is possible to be a broken living image. (Which is where I would say the majority of the Church is at.)

I tend to view 'mystical expereinces' as happening when one becomes conscious of this deeper level of our own being.

I probably should have left well enough alone, I am certainly no expert and am talking above my head. :(

Let's see how did Herman's disclaimer go??? I am not responsible for the content of this post....

PS The whole issue of how many in the OC view the saints is still problematic for me, but I don't want to get off on this issue again. It is not a problem with the saints themselves. It is a problem with people's attitudes toward the saints. Somehow this seems missed.

I Cor 12:21-24

21The eye cannot say to the hand, "I don't need you!" And the head cannot say to the feet, "I don't need you!" 22On the contrary, those parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, 23and the parts that we think are less honorable we treat with special honor. And the parts that are unpresentable are treated with special modesty, 24while our presentable parts need no special treatment. But God has combined the members of the body and has given greater honor to the parts that lacked it,

Seems to me many are giving greater honor to those who don't need it.

[Mary]

PS The whole issue of how many in the OC view the saints is still problematic for me, but I don't want to get off on this issue again. It is not a problem with the saints themselves. It is a problem with people's attitudes toward the saints. Somehow this seems missed.

I Cor 12:21-24

21The eye cannot say to the hand, "I don't need you!" And the head cannot say to the feet, "I don't need you!" 22On the contrary, those parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, 23and the parts that we think are less honorable we treat with special honor. And the parts that are unpresentable are treated with special modesty, 24while our presentable parts need no special treatment. But God has combined the members of the body and has given greater honor to the parts that lacked it,

Seems to me many are giving greater honor to those who don't need it.

Just trying to understand what you're saying... You say the people's attitude is a problem. I agree. People are always a problem. If it weren't for people, I'd be perfect. ;) But if we judged the message of the Church by the life of the messengers, no one would become a christian. Are we not responsible to act upon that which God has revealed to us, regardless of what others are doing or saying? In other words, if every Christian on earth is a total hypocrite would that cause Christ to become a Lie instead of the Truth?

And I dont' understand at all what your last statement has to do with the verses you quoted. It sounds like you're saying, since the saints are stronger, more honorable, more presentable, etc... they shouldn't be honored? But rather, those of us who are an embarrassment to the Church, should be honored?

In Christ,

Mary.

[Effie Ganatsios]

Thanks Celinda for making it clearer for me. I know that people from all religions have had spiritual experiences but it seems to me that they needed to reach a certain level of what? holiness, perhaps? to have a genuine experience.

I'll stop here because I'll be off-line for a couple of weeks
and I know that I'll be thinking about this. This is a very interesting subject and it's one that I have to confess I don't know a lot about.

Effie