The concept of personal spiritual/prayer practices

[Rick H.]

A Personal Spiritual Practice! : A Way of Being


Dear Athanasia, Andreas, Herman, and' Learner' [and All],

I am going to be so late . . . But, I would like to share with you that it occurs to me, the previous thread, An American Orthodoxy? seemed to focus more than not on the communal aspect(s) of "our common salvation," whereas this thread, The Heart of Salvation! seems to have more of a personal application being presented so far.

And, as said earlier, I am more than a little excited about this development. Possibly, where the previous thread was more theoretical (and big picture oriented), so far this thread is a little more practical. But, as was said in the conclusion of the previous thread, "compartmentalization is not the friend of Orthodoxy." So hopefully, this very pleasing turn of events will continue as it relates to our discussion and a continued coming together of an Orthodoxy in theory and an Orthodoxy in practice which is and always has been the "True Orthodox Way of Being"--regardless of the individual labels that have been applied to IT. So, God willing, let us forge ahead!

Specifically, I am excited about our current discussion as it relates to the clear and concise method of Athanasia in dealing with some of the things/dynamics that Andreas and I have been considering from our points of view. I asked quite a few questions in the previous thread that went unanswered, let alone having someone come in and make "mincemeat" out of them as Athanasia has with some. So this is a very welcome change. And, in addition to what has just been mentioned, as "Herman the 'simply' indispensable" exercises his unique gifts for the benefit of all, I think we are ready and we may, God willing, move into the Question of questions that 'Learner' has just raise as it relates to a personal spiritual practice.

But, I wonder if it is obvious to all that we are poised now, at this time, for a meaningful and somewhat deep discussion about a personal spiritual practice. As a possible starting place we may consider some questions like the following:

1.) Regarding a personal spiritual practice what 'methods/practices' are clearly blessed by the Church (all people in all places) based on a consideration of the History of the Church and the History of Christian Thought? And, can these approved practices/methods be listed plainly?

2.) In the same train of thought as the above question, what methods/practices are clearly forbidden by the Church (all people in all places)?

3.) And, finally, also in the same way of thinking, what methods/practices may fall into an area that would be considered as falling into a "grey" area--possibly acceptable in some cultures/places within the Church but not others?

As we consider such things as theosis and union for God, or the cry of the heart or a yearning for union with with God (as Athanasia put it so well), or such as the other "aspects of the soul" that have been presented here . . . there are many gates that we can enter this discussion of a personal spiritual practice. So please, if another seems better to you then go for it.

But, with all rank legalism and mere formalism aside, in regard to a personal spiritual practice:

4.) Does one size fit all?

5.) Or, is it a matter of choosing methods and practices each as is appropriate for oneself?

And, finally, 'knowing' a personal spiritual practice is nothing more than a means/'vehicle' and a method(s) designed to help us acquire union with God (and in this sense they are not an End in themselves but they are only a means to an End):

6.) Can there be any room allowed for a borrowing and a lending of spiritual practices between Orthodox and non-Orthodox faiths?

. . . and in this sense as another has said, "Thus Orthodoxy is no longer (mis)understood as the opposite of heresy but rather is understood as a term that signals 'a way of being' in the world . . ."


In Christ,
Rick

"For in Him we live and move and have our being"

[Lourens]

....with all rank legalism and mere formalism aside, in regard to a personal spiritual practice:.....is it a matter of choosing methods and practices each as is appropriate for oneself?

Sir,

I used to walk and pray
a lot
as some men work and play.

Nowaday
I mostly sit
and
read and write
and
laugh and cry...

Surely,
I say,
Is that not enough
for Him
to work with,
yet room
to play?

Nowaday,
I simply sit,
and read,
and write,
with knowledge sweet
and deep
I know:
I smile,
and weep,
at my Lord's feet.

Sincerely,

Learner

[Marie-Duquette]

Wether it is the "heart of the matter!" or, "the Path of the Heart!" or the "Heart of the Path!" each of us is called to be at the "Heart" of the situation in which we find ourselves, today! ... Perhaps the fewer words, the better, as one enters deeper into the Heart of Being. Especially in the antichamber of "Great Lent"

Thank you "Learner" for your simple approach to being with the Lord, as you are, today!

Marie_duquette

[Rick H.]

"The Heart of the Situation"



Wether it is the "heart of the matter!" or, "the Path of the Heart!" or the "Heart of the Path!" each of us is called to be at the "Heart" of the situation in which we find ourselves, today! ... Perhaps the fewer words, the better, as one enters deeper into the Heart of Being. Especially in the antichamber of "Great Lent"

Thank you "Learner" for your simple approach to being with the Lord, as you are, today!

Marie_duquette


Dear Marie, 'Learner,' and All:

Yes, Marie. There is a time for everything. Very good as usual--"The 'Heart' of the situation in which we find ourselves." This is IT. And, also, IT is very much as you say so well, " . . . "the fewer words, the better as one enters into the Heart of Being." This is the Holy Silence that all true theology points to with its response to the Word of God as we see in the poetic contribution from 'Learner' so well. And, this is the true irony of our situation as we follow in Paul's footsteps as we consider his remarkable expression of "logike latereia." Because among other services rendered in the Church, theology is specifically committed to the offering of "reasonable service" to God. Whether through a poetic or imaginative hermeneutic, or through a literal grammatical/historical approach the eros/agape principle comes into play--in order to avoid thinking that is empty, meaningless, and futile. In this sense, all theology, whether it is comprehended by all or not, is at best a human ana-logy. And, sometimes we do a better job than others when we attempt to point to the Way and the Vehicles. But, this is the true irony because all we have at times such as these are words to point to the Word and the Holy Silence to be found within the "Heart of Being"--in which we find a genuine unity and a "Being as Communion" as has also been said.

So possibly it is not the quantity of words but it is truly the Quality as seen in 'Learner's' approach which is to be compared with Love as Agape (and not Anti-Agape or Anti-Philosophy). As Peter said, sometimes Paul's letters are hard to understand aren't they? And, as we see in the Words and parables of our Lord Jesus Christ, there was not always a high degree of comprehension and understanding in his audience; however, there was a clear demonstration of Agape. Without agape, theological work is a miserable polemics and a waste of words. And, directly related to this, as has been said:

"The most serious prayer, the most thorough and extensive study, or the most zealous service could not alter this result. Theological work can only be undertaken, continued, and concluded by the reception and activation of the gift of love."

There is a time for poetry and a time for prose. There is a time to tear apart and a time to sew together. There is a time to be silent and a time to speak. But, this is not the time to be silent. We are no where near a place of Holy Silence in this thread at this time--in this situation in which we find ourselves. We have taken a most excellent turn of late and our direction is pointing to One of perfection. But, we still are only flying towards the glow of the flame of Orthodoxy which we can see on the horizon.

As 'Leaner' has provided a superb ana-logy of a true personal spiritual practice, I will now provide a poetic demonstration of the opposite, and by means of eros in which I was consumed by this mood when I wrote the following a few years back:


The Plague in The Polis:
"On the Location and Instrumentality of Anti-Philosophy"

Gluttonous gathers and guardians in the republic,
the ultimate suspension of truth.

Judgementalism reviling and resisting judgement,
the non-systematic mocker abounds.

Chaos diligently demanding conformity,
socratic students unaware.

Obtuse implements suspended by arrogant stupor,
the plague in the polis beware!

Who can see the madness in my approach, and in my life, at this time a few years ago. Who can see the dark night of insanity viz. fighting eros by means of eros? Hopefully, by means of contrasting 'Learner's' beautiful demonstration of a personal spiritual practice [which is a comparison & contrast on its own] with this full-blown pathic demonstration of writing, by means of the inspiration of Dame Folly, one can make the necessary distinction for transcending all forms of eros which can only be vehicles for the life or eros which some would consider to be the life of the Church. And, from this place of emptiness . . . find fulfillment in an approach characterized by agape which is the real thing, or the authentic Life of the Church--and the true Vehicle for entering the Agape of God which is the Person of Jesus Christ.

But, now we return back to the question of a True Personal Spiritual Practice . . .

In His Agape to All,
Rick

Ecc 3:1-8

[Rick H.]

"A Personal Spiritual Practice"


***Note to my personal friends and colleagues: (And, yes I do have a friend Trudy ;) I know I just sent you a link for this thread and mentioned to you that I was focusing on this "H.O.S." thread; but you might want to continue to monitor the previous "An American Orthodoxy?" thread. "Audrey" has picked this up and is doing some very high caliber work with an Orthodox Psychologism construct.


Dear All:

Regarding the previous very well written posting that concluded with the following:



"But, now we return back to the question of a True Personal Spiritual Practice . . ."


I would like to continue to ask some of the same questions that are going unanswered here regarding a personal spiritual practice including:




4.) Does one size fit all?

5.) Or, is it a matter of choosing methods and practices each as is appropriate for oneself?



These really are pretty simple questions. I think sometimes, especially when typing late at night, I am guilty of using terms and concepts that make it hard to see the big picture for some. Whereby, if one cannot understand the issues then either misunderstanding and resentment occur, or one is severely handicapped and cannot participate in the conversation very well. So I apologize for when this happens. But, these above two questions are fair questions I think.

And, to hopefully provide a springboard for this I would like to submit a piece dealing with the subject of 'Christian Perfection' from Fr. Jack Sparks from a work of his. This is from the first chapter of his book, Victory in the Unseen Warfare:

"Here is the truth we must absorb: The greatest and most perfect thing a human being can ever desire to achieve is to come near to God and dwell in union with Him.

Some people--those who judge by appearances--say the perfect Christian life consists in carrying out fasts, vigils, prostrations, sleeping on bare earth, and similar severities of the body. Others will say it consists in saying many prayers at home and attending long services in church. Still others think perfection consists entirely of mental prayer, solitude, isolation, and silence.

The majority, however, will say perfection comes only by strictly observing all the rules and practices of the tradition, neither going overboard nor being deficient, but keeping to a sort of 'golden moderation.'

So we see that, by and large, people judge perfection by the external standard of observance of certain practices. But all the virtues mentioned above do not, in and of themselves, constitute the Christian perfection we are seeking. They are only means and methods designed to help us acquire it--and they may or may not do so.

There is, of course, no doubt these things do help some people to attain perfection in the Christian life. There are virtuous people who practice those virtues as they should, to acquire strength and power against their own sinful tendencies. Through these practices, they gain courage to withstand the temptations and seductions of our three main enemies: the world, the flesh, and the devil. by using these means properly, and at the right time, they gain the spiritual support so necessary to all servants of God, and especially to beginners.

These virtuous people practice piety, each as is appropriate for himself."

Earlier today on the "Meditation" thread I read an interesting contribution from Owen that has some overlap here. Also, hopefully we haven't lost 'Learner' because we are all over practical theology and psychology right now. And, come to think of it, 'Learner' would be a huge asset to Audrey's An American Orthodoxy? thread . . . Yes, maybe that is a perfect name in the sense that the Good Doctor used in relation to the BBC radio program link that he provided a while back.

But, anyway, the topic at hand now, here, is "A Personal Spiritual Practice." I wonder if anyone would like to comment on this as it relates to the above questions in this post. Or, the questions that remain unaddressed in the recent previous posts. Or, if anyone would like to address the subject by sharing from their own personal experience/practice in terms of means and methods?

Maybe this is a foreign concept to most of this community? I honestly don't know.

However, the following is a reprint from a posting of mine on 1/9/07 from the A.O. thread. It "got the crickets" then and it will probably "get the crickets" now :) but, I will give it another shot here:




So, in an effort to begin to move this conversation forward, in a hopefully more accessible way, I would like to offer the following concepts as possible conclusions for exploration and discussion here:

I. A Theology of Love: "On the ground of a radical/'radix' individualism
as the means for true Community"


II. Awakening to Our Singular Potential within the Eucharistic Community via the Spirit of Life: "Realizing Personal Spiritual Practice as Both a Means to and an Expression of Sanctifying Grace"




Yes, this is kind of like fishing :)

In Christ,
Rick

Matthew 4:19

[Lourens]

Rick Henry wrote, concerning personal spiritual practices:

"These really are pretty simple questions.

Does one size fit all?

Or, is it a matter of choosing methods and practices each as is appropriate for oneself?"

Simple questions are perhaps best answered by simple answers. They often hold their simple solutions in themselves, revealed best by silence. They have their own reward.

However, let us consider shoes.

Many may subscribe to a similar style (especially when fashionable), but the same size does not fit all.

And even when shoes look exactly alike when new, except for size, any pair will take on a unique shape and expression due to the wearer's use of them. Their owner imparts "character"---thus, one can "feel" one's own, and "feel at home" in them.

As I understand it, spiritual direction (in a set tradition with set practices) seeks not to enforce a contrived uniformity, but guides the practitioner to find his/her own unique fulfillment or transformation through those exercises.

And, of course, to keep those shoes clean.

Respectfully,

Learner

[John Charmley]

Dear Rick,

It would seem unlikely that one size could fit all; if that were so, Orthodoxy would be an organised religion!

Indeed, sometimes it seems to me that the reason there are so many Christian denominations lies along this line; those who feel that their spiritual needs are not being met within their Church often try to find another place to go; as one who is doing that at the moment, I understand the motivation quite personally; that my journeying is bringing me to Orthodoxy does not blind me to the fact that I have taken a decision to cease being part of the Anglican communion. I have much love and deep respect for my old Church, which contains many wonderful Christian people who are much better people than I am. But for me, in the end, it became a spiritual wilderness. So, I guess I have to be on the side that says we all have to find a practice appropriate to ourselves.

Even within Orthodoxy there are marked variations of style and practice; all of which are Orthodox (and some of which are not considered so by other Orthodox, but let us not go to that place, please). To me, still outside, it seems as though this is a very great strength, since Orthodoxy keeps to the Faith once delivered, but like any good mother, deals with each of her children as an individual. The spiritual danger for us is that we cannot resist commenting on those external signs you mention, and when we do, it is seldom with humility. How often are we like those whom Our Lord rebuked in Matthew 23:23

23 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone.

Because we see externals, it is too easy to judge by them.

We may too easily fall under the head of those Our Lord was talking about later in the same passage, at Matthew 23:27

27 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which indeed appear beautiful outwardly, but inside are full of dead men's bones and all uncleanness.
We fast, we keep the commandments, we tithe, but we could still end up like those Pharisees in John 9:16 who asked, self righteously:

16 ... This Man is not from God, because He does not keep the Sabbath. Others said, How can a man who is a sinner do such signs? And there was a division among them.

As befits our Creator, He knew us so well, and he knew the tendency to asceticism and to spirituality carried with it these temptations; and of these does He warn us - to our profit if we will but hearken unto Him.

I know I am a sinner, and would think it pride to say I am the chief of sinners. I try, I fail, I fall, I get up and try and repeat the cycle. With His help, and that of His Church, I sometimes walk a few steps. If I read my Bible; if I pray; if I read Christian literature; if I attend Church; if I try to walk in His way; if I am mindful of Him; and if I partake of the sacraments and obey the commandments; why then, that is often as much as I can manage. I am mindful of the canons I neglect, the fasting I don't complete, and all the rest of the things where I fall short. But I take heart from Our Lord's injunction in Mark 12:30-31

30 `And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.' This is the first commandment.
31 And the second, like it, is this: `You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these.

If I keep on trying to do these things, then, with God's help and that of His Church, I shall stay on my feet and move forward - in hope and prayer.

In Christ,

John

[Rick H.]

Dear John,

The other thread where you shared your most excellent news about becoming Orthodox is somewhat obscure for people of my limited computer navigation skills. I can't even find it to double check my post to it :) So with your permission, I would like to continue the celebration here as well. That looks so good to see the word Orthodox next to your name at the top of your postings. I am very happy for you!!! May God bless you!

Dear Brother in Christ John,

I am so happy for you! What a special day, what a good day!! May you continue from an Orthodox framework as "the Good Doctor" to be a peacemaker, and as a true apostle of Love for Christ. I am speechless, but my friend Thomas Merton in the following is not:


The one who has attained final integration is no longer
limited by the culture in which he has grown up. "He has
embraced all of life." He passes beyond all these limiting
forms, while retaining all that is best and most universal
in them, finally giving birth to a fully comprehensive
self. He accepts not only his own community, his own
society, his own friends, his own culture, but all humanity.
He does not remain bound to one limited set of values in
such a way that he opposes them aggressively or defensively
to others. He is fully "Catholic" in the best sense of he
word. He has a unified vision and experience of the one
truth shining out in all its various manifestations, some
clearer than others, some more definite and more certain
than others. He does not set these partial views up in
opposition to each other, but unifies them in a dialectic
or an insight of complementarity. With this view of life he
is able to bring perspective, liberty and spontaneity into
the lives of others. The finally integrated person is a
peacemaker, and that is why there is such a desperate need
for our leaders to become such persons of insight.

Blessed are the peacemakers John.

In Christ's Love,
Rick

[Marie-Duquette]

Rick,

Thank God for the fluidity of your intellect! It is certainly a "Gift" of the Holy Spirit, leading your hearers and readers to a deeper understanding.

We,as Orthodox Christians, and others as well, so often wonder where our GIFT resides at the Heart of our Life: ... preaching, teaching, healing, prayer, evangelization, or just simply the Faith, Hope and Love - the Greatest of the Gifts according to St. Paul in 1Cor.13.

My prayer is that you, and and of us who access this web-site, as well as all Orthodox Christians continue to search-out, acknowledge and cultivate the Gifts daily in our personal Spiritual Practice.

I read your posts with interest and thanks, Rick. Your certainly seem to be "a-flame" with Zeal!

Let us pray for one-another during this coming Lenten Season, at the Heart of the very Prayer of Christ Jesus.

macie-duquette

[Mary]

"Thanks, but No Thanks"
Is there anyone out there that sees the value of a personal spiritual practice and would like to try to help me understand the shape and dimension of an Eastern Orthodox approach?

A personal spiritual practice anyone?

There is suffering; but, may Love abide

In Christ,
Rick

Yeah, sure, if you're serious - I've only gotten as far as step 1 so far. Here it is:

Drop everything you've ever known and practiced, and come to Christ empty-handed and He will fill it.

Protestant approaches, Buddhist approaches, Murton's approach (who on earth is that anyway?).... they are of no use in understanding Christ's approach - for they are of the flesh.

That's what the apostle Paul did - Phillipians 3:2-11:


Watch out for those dogs, those men who do evil, those mutilators of the flesh. For it is we who are the circumcision, we who worship by the Spirit of God, who glory in Christ Jesus, and who put no confidence in the flesh— though I myself have reasons for such confidence.
If anyone else thinks he has reasons to put confidence in the flesh, I have more: circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; in regard to the law, a Pharisee; as for zeal, persecuting the church; as for legalistic righteousness, faultless.
But whatever was to my profit I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith. I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead.


There you have it. An Eastern Orthodox Approach to personal spiritual practice. If you want to know how to apply that in practical terms, only the Holy Spirit and the Church can teach you that... all else is rubbish.

In Christ,

Mary.

[Nina]

Yeah, sure, if you're serious - I've only gotten as far as step 1 so far. Here it is:

Drop everything you've ever known and practiced, and come to Christ empty-handed and He will fill it.

Protestant approaches, Buddhist approaches, Murton's approach (who on earth is that anyway?).... they are of no use in understanding Christ's approach - for they are of the flesh.

That's what the apostle Paul did - Phillipians 3:2-11:



There you have it. An Eastern Orthodox Approach to personal spiritual practice. If you want to know how to apply that in practical terms, only the Holy Spirit and the Church can teach you that... all else is rubbish.

In Christ,

Mary.

Wow Mary! I will refrain from praising you, but I have to say that your approach stemming from your personal experience is not only very helpful, but also authoritative if not only for the simple fact that you have been in contact with those religions you mentioned.

[Mary]

Wow Mary! I will refrain from praising you, but I have to say that your approach stemming from your personal experience is not only very helpful, but also authoritative if not only for the simple fact that you have been in contact with those religions you mentioned.

Yes, you really should refrain from praising me or else I'll have to leave monachos, if I wish to emulate the Saints whom we honor. ;) Unless, of course, you're testing me, to see how serious I really am about fleeing praise!

You win. I fail.

Mary

[Rick H.]

Protestant approaches, Buddhist approaches, Murton's approach (who on earth is that anyway?).... they are of no use in understanding Christ's approach - for they are of the flesh.




Oh, Dearest Mary,

I don't know what to say, other than please say it's not so . . . just take a breath here, please . . . and look at the so called 'Orthodox epistemology' that you are modeling--as it relates to the heart of the matter. Your propostion is very broad here as it relates especially to Protestantism, and you do not even know who Thomas Merton is, but you lump him in and boldly assert that he is of no use in understanding the Way of Christ either. How can you do these things?

Mary, this is what I spoke of in my first post here on Monachos, in the "An American Orthodoxy?" thread. In post #1 there, I pointed to a consideration of the state of being of the Church (knowing that one's ontology models one's epistemology), and in this sense, conversations like this one here too, in the HOS thread, are not passe; but, matter very much! Dear Mary, please be sober and vigilant here, I don't know what else to say.

In Christ,
Rick

PS Hopefully, 'Learner's' question(s) will not get lost in the shuffle here.

[Father David Moser]

Yeah, sure, if you're serious - I've only gotten as far as step 1 so far. Here it is:

Drop everything you've ever known and practiced, and come to Christ empty-handed and He will fill it.

I agree wholeheartedly with Mary. This is the first thing that I tell new catechumens, "Forget everything that you think you know and start from the beginning" Orthodoxy is about knowing Christ - not about spiritual exercises and so on. So start from the beginning and learn to know Jesus Christ, everything else is at best unimportant, but more likely a distraction.

Fr David Moser

[Rick H.]

Orthodoxy is about knowing Christ - not about spiritual exercises and so on. So start from the beginning and learn to know Jesus Christ, everything else is at best unimportant, but more likely a distraction.

Fr David Moser

Dear Father David,

I wonder if we could flesh this out a bit? It almost sounds like there is a one size fits all way of thinking here that would stand in opposition to a way of knowing that may be best described as "each as is appropriate for oneself?"

Especially, as it relates to Spiritual Direction, I wouldn't think this is what you are implying. But, expressions like "learn to know Jesus Christ" are somewhat vague in a stand alone presentation.

In Christ,
Rick

PS Remember the "Learner!" :)

[Herman Blaydoe]

While Thomas Merton is greatly admired in many circles, he is a controversial person within Orthodoxy. He was not Orthodox, and there are many who certainly would say that he was not "orthodox" in any sense. In the later part of his tragically short life he was dallying with "eastern" (non Christian) "spirituality", specifically Buddhism, and seemed to question his own calling as a Catholic monastic. Unfortunately we don't know how it all might have come out since he died under tragic and questionable circumstances. While he was a very talented and prolific writer, I suspect the spiritually immature Orthodox would do well not to read Merton until after being well-grounded in the Orthodox Fathers. I look forward to correction if I have seriously misspoken.

[Mary]

Oh, Dearest Mary,

I don't know what to say, other than please say it's not so . . . just take a breath here, please . . . and look at the so called 'Orthodox epistemology' that you are modeling--as it relates to the heart of the matter. Your propostion is very broad here as it relates especially to Protestantism, and you do not even know who Thomas Merton is, but you lump him in and boldly assert that he is of no use in understanding the Way of Christ either. How can you do these things?

Mary, this is what I spoke of in my first post here on Monachos, in the "An American Orthodoxy?" thread. In post #1 there, I pointed to a consideration of the state of being of the Church (knowing that one's ontology models one's epistemology), and in this sense, conversations like this one here too, in the HOS thread, are not passe; but, matter very much! Dear Mary, please be sober and vigilant here, I don't know what else to say.

In Christ,
Rick

PS Hopefully, 'Learner's' question(s) will not get lost in the shuffle here.

Dear Rick,

I wasn't speaking against protestants or bhuddists or Merton. My mind is simple and I tend to see things as black and white and when I get into the grey areas I panic.

The choices of who I want to follow as a protestant were endless. I chose Max Lucado, Chuck Swindoll and very few others. I bought every book they ever wrote. Do you know how many boxes of books I got rid of? It was like losing weight - such a refreshing feeling!

Is this to say these excellent teachers have nothing to teach me anymore? Not at all. It only means I have found the Masters. Why should I learn from a first grader, even if he's an A student, when the Greatest Teachers of all are willing to teach me? What does the first grader have to offer me, that the Masters can't?


"A student is not above his teacher, nor a servant above his master. It is enough for the student to be like his teacher, and the servant like his master. If the head of the house has been called Beelzebub,[c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=10&version=31#fen-NIV-23443c)] how much more the members of his household! Matt 10:24-25

So, for one such as me, with a simple mind, I need to be extremely careful whom I chose as my teachers. I have nothing much to contribute to your discussion, most of it is beyond me, because I do not know who you speak of or what you speak of. My comments were merely for others simple minds who may stumble upon these pages.

In Christ,

Mary.

[Rick H.]

'A Gift,' 'Amazing,' 'Great Value' . . .

Dear Herman,

Here is another post about Thomas Merton from one who finds a "gift" in his novel, and especially in his journals finds them "amazing," and thinks, as I do , "Seeds of Contemplation" has "great value. Don't let that last one get past you Herman . . . Seeds of Contemplation has great value! This person even has an autographed picture. Does this correct anything in your post, I don't know, what do you think?

In this also we see that Merton, "Dared to write what was in his 'heart'" . . . may we not ever be intimidated to write what is in our hearts!!!




Thomas Merton is, of course, multi-faceted, and he himself struggled with the legacy of "Seven Story Mountain" for it had been heavily edited by the Monastery and is rather bland compared to what he later had published when he 'broke' his self-accepted shackles. This is not to diminish the gift that one finds in this book.

His Journals, are an amazing read. Even in his 'I am towing the line (because the authorities forewarned me)' phase, "; "Seeds of Contemplation" has great value.

His poetry, for me, except the one about his brother, is so-so.

I have somewhere, probably in England, a gift, of what was truly one of his most amazing mediums of expression - photography. A pilgrim who taught me how to weave baskets, when I lived as a hermit in Shropshire, England, gave a gift given to him, an actual first-take photo of Mertons', also signed by him.

He corresponded with Father Sophrony. Fr. Sophrony, himself, showed me the letters. He loved Athos, though never managed a visit, and he had deep love for Orthodoxy.

When he was allowed to live as a hermit what strikes one is not only his faithful adherence to the Rule of Prayer, but the freedom, given by Gethesame Monastery, to express himself finally in all facets, good and bad.

This is, for me, the especial value of his 'Journals'. They are a wonderful, fascinating insight of a monk who through his art, expressed the Merton that he knew himself to be.

In India I met one of the three Abbots who were at the Bangkok Conference when he reposed, and who signed the "Death Certification" - what struck me about all this, was that within the Roman Catholic Church, verified by this Cistercian Abbot, was present a strong opinion, 'he got what what he deserved, his unusual death is testimony to his wandering soul and betrayal of the Roman Catholic Church'.

This is unfair and unfortunate. Rather he dared to write of that which moved his heart. In this, I personally find no fault.



In Christ,
Rick

[Herman Blaydoe]

This story aside, though, I am still left with the question of what would constitute a serious compromise of one's faith, and whether external cultural stuff could really undermine the salvation that is inherent in being a new creation.

Certainly. The free gift of Salvation can be rejected at any time. Behold the Bridegroom comes in the middle of the night, and blessed is that man whom He shall find watching. And again I say, cursed is he whom He shall find sleeping. The stories of the Saints are replete with how even the saints can be deceived for a time and it is only repentence and returning to Truth in humility that saves them. One need only look at the icon "The Divine Ladder", seeing monks being pulled off by demonic deceipt.

Yes, we can freely give up the Gift of salvation by chasing after other pretty packages.


The love of Christ---that would allow an apostle to "become all things to all men;" that would render all things pure to the pure in heart; that would allow everything eaten to be sanctified by thanksgiving; and that teaches us that it is not possible to be defiled from what enters the body by the mouth---will surely keep any one who dwells in obedience?

Pure in heart. Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God. How do you define purity of heart?

Obedience. What does it mean to be obedient? Obedience to who? or to what?

Rhetorical questions perhaps, but well worth considering I think.

[Herman Blaydoe]

Don't let that last one get past you Herman . . . Seeds of Contemplation has great value! This person even has an autographed picture. Does this correct anything in your post, I don't know, what do you think?

Not so much, I think. Great value perhaps but not necessarily to everyone in equal measure. I freely acknowledge there are those who find his writings of value, I just thought it worthwhile mentioning that not everyone agrees.

[Father David Moser]

Dear Father David,

I wonder if we could flesh this out a bit?

Uh, not really. That's as complicated as it gets. Know Christ - all else is in vain. It really is that simple.

If you need help in knowing Christ, perhaps some of the things in yesterday's homily (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/propoved/message/255) may be of help. Particularly this particular segment which is the core around which the whole homily is structured:


How then ... do we pursue the love of God.
First, my confessor told me, it is necessary to ask God to give you that
love for Himself. In prayer always be sure to ask of God that He would
kindle in your heart that flame of love for Him. Whenever you then sense
even the slightest warmth in your soul towards God, then immediately
focus on that spark of love and nurture it into flame. Fr Porphyrios
also tells us how to pursue the love of God. He says that we must “study
the words of the Fathers, through memorization of the psalms and of
portions of Scripture, through the singing of hymns and the through the
repetition of the Jesus Prayer.” And again he says that one should
“occupy yourself with hymns of praise, with the poetic canons, with the
worship of God … All the holy books of our Church – the Book of the
Eight Tones (the Octoechos), the Book of the Hours (Horologian), the
Psalter, the books with the Offices for the feasts and saint day
commemorations (Menaion) – contain holy, loving words addressed to
Christ. Read them with joy and love and exaltation. When you devote
yourself to this effort with intense desire, your soul will be
sanctified in a gentle and mystical way.” Finally he says, “(Reading)
the lives of the saints … the saints are friends of God. All day long
one can meditate on and take delight in their achievements and imitate
their way of life. … By reading these books you will gradually acquire
meekness, humility and love and your soul will be made good.”



Fr David

[Rick H.]

Dear Mary,

Thank you very much for bringing me up to speed here! Now, the sun is back out and the skies are blue, and when you say so well:




So, for one such as me, with a simple mind, I need to be extremely careful whom I chose as my teachers.



I say me too! I think you have expressed something that is very critical for all of us here to really grasp :)

Thank you Mary.

Yes, a beautiful day it is (did that sound a little like Yoda?)

In Christ,
Rick

[Rick H.]

Not so much, I think. Great value perhaps but not necessarily to everyone in equal measure. I freely acknowledge there are those who find his writings of value, I just thought it worthwhile mentioning that not everyone agrees.


I agree with you Herman, when you say, "not so much" . . . you did your usual most excellent job providing a very well balanced review. Please know that now you are our official 'go-to-guy' when we need an even handed report!

Herman, good job again you did (there goes that Yoda thing again ;)

Thanks.

In Christ,
Rick

[Rick H.]

Uh, not really. That's as complicated as it gets. Know Christ - all else is in vain. It really is that simple.

If you need help in knowing Christ, perhaps some of the things in yesterday's homily (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/propoved/message/255) may be of help. Particularly this particular segment which is the core around which the whole homily is structured:

Fr David




Dear Father David,

Thanks very much for the response. I guess that was kind of a loaded question wasn't it? ;) :) And, yes, obviously, I do need some major help . . . so I am looking forward to reading the material that you have provided tonight when I can devote a proper effort. I think you have sent this to me/us for a specific reason, so I am considering this a gift and am looking forward to hopefully hearing the message found within this corpus this evening.

Yes, this evening it is. (I think that's all Yoda does, end his sentences in a verb isn't it? ;)

In Christ,
Rick

PS Remember the "Learner."

[Celinda Grace]

Rick,

I would have to agree with Herman about being very careful who I recommended Merton to. I have read a number of his books and enjoyed them, but he focuses on his experiences in contemplation rather then Christ. It is experience without being properly grounded in theology. I find little mention of Christ in Merton's books. Compare Merton's book Contemplative Prayer sometime with Elder Sophrony's book On Prayer. The two are similar in that they recount the author's personal experiences of prayer, but Elder Sophrony talks a great deal about Christ and there is quite a bit of theology in it while Merton's book is about experience and practice almost exclusively.

Since you were asking for bits on personal spiritual practice and Mother Gavrilia was brought up I will put a few quotes here from my reading today, (The Ascetic of Love)


"We ourselves cannot get rid of any of our faults. he takes them away from us, one by one."

We should ask God everyday to break our will amd make it His so that we may become as He wants us to be

We must not surrender to His Will. This is what soldiers do. We, who are His children, must offer Him our own will along with all our being-in whatever pitiful state we may be -and tell him. "Lord, take all my faults and imperfections and set them right."

You must not talk about people who are absent.

Experience has taught me that no one can help anyone, no matter how strong his wish and love may be. Help comes only in the Hour of God, from the One.

We have need of three things: First, faith. Second, Faith. Third, Faith.

We need endurance against the arrows of the Evil on, perseverancein the shattering of our Ego and submission to the Will of God. It is only in this way that we can progress.

Unless we stumble, we cannot advance. Let us say Thank God that we do not break an arm or a leg in doing so.

[Kornelius]

I don't know what to say, other than please say it's not so . . . just take a breath here, please . . . and look at the so called 'Orthodox epistemology' that you are modeling--as it relates to the heart of the matter. Your propostion is very broad here as it relates especially to Protestantism, and you do not even know who Thomas Merton is, but you lump him in and boldly assert that he is of no use in understanding the Way of Christ either. How can you do these things?

It seems strange to me that you are disappointed with Mary, your fellow orthodox - provided that our chosen religious affiliation in Monachos indeed matches our real life's religious affiliation - because of her indifference toward Thomas Merton, someone who is not even orthodox! What is even more strange is the resistance you put toward other orthodox members who say repeatedly to you, know Christ through the Orthodox way - all else is vain, and yet you continuously try to incorporate spirituality from somewhere else as if what Orthodoxy has is never sufficient.

I am very perplexed. If you have indeed converted recently to orthodoxy, I would recommend that you examine yourself seriously - and I mean this in the most humble and loving way - for you do not seem happy or convinced with your decision. It is as if in your eyes orthodoxy is incomplete in itself and you are trying to fill in the void. The thought of such thing being the truth brings to mind the words of St. Peter, "For if, flying from the pollutions of the world, through the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they be again entangled in them and overcome, their latter state is become unto them worse than the former. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of justice, than after they had known it, to turn back from that holy commandment which was delivered to them." (II Peter 2:19-21)

Thomas Merton - the one you want us to appreciate more - or others like minded such as Aldous Huxley, Christopher Isherwood, Somerset Maugham and Teilhard de Chardin, are for us orthodox in general and for those converted to orthodoxy in particular what St. Peter describes as the polluted past and a threat to orthodoxy. His book, on the Zen Masters, is entirely based on the treacherous assumption that all the so-called "mystical experiences" in every religion are true. He represents par excellence the above quotation from St. Peter - a sincere convert to Roman Catholicism and monasticism who ended his days proclaiming the equality of Christian religious experiences and the experience of Zen Budhism and other pagan religions, an apostate who eroded whatever was spiritually sound in Protestantism, Roman Catholicism and Catholic monasticism.

Let us not allow his spirit influence and attack our precious Orthodox Church!

[Lourens]

Dear Orthodox friends,

I must admit that I have been surprised by the tone of some of the responses here that apparently seek to put our dear brother, Mr. Rick Henry, in his place. They have been straight to the point, however, in stating that Christ is It, and nobody who wishes to participate here can deny such truth.

In this sense, the various sober contributions have humbled me and put me in my place.

Perhaps my inquiry into what constitutes a "compromise" in one's faith has more to do with my own personal struggles and growth.

A modern rendering of God's words to Abraham, that he should walk before Him and be perfect, is:

"Live in My Presence with integrity."

I have adopted this as a "motto." The whole idea of "compromise" would point to a breach in the integrity with which one lives in the Presence (abides in Christ). And if one lives in the Divine Presence with such apparent abandon as the Greek lady in the story posted earlier by Anthony, the question does arise: What exactly would constitute such a disruption in one's inner truth so as to be deemed a compromise?

Now, I must confess: More than once in my life, I have, in a renewed consecration/dedication/commitment/surrender to Christ thrown out or burned books that were not considered kosher (from a fundamentalist, closed-minded, dim view) and determined to know nothing but Christ.

The simple conviction that Christ is our Wisdom rendered a seeking elsewhere mere stupidity. I became convinced that the moment I sought some insight from somewhere else, I would be placing an idol next to Christ, and giving honour (worship) to it by considering it a worthy source to complement the (insufficient) wisdom that is available in Christ.

Guilty!

Yet, dear Monachos friends, I have repeatedly drifted away from this "resolve" and found myself studying as widely as possible in my quest to gain knowledge, insight, and wisdom. And I cannot seem to abandon this eternal search for "more."

And if this is my true nature, is my integrity not rather compromised if I abandon all effort to draw from sources beyond the Scriptures? Why can it not be the Spirit's leading, also?

For example, Kornelius referred to "spirit influence" in his last post. I would really like to understand the dynamics of "spheres of influence" of individuals and groups, the energy fields that surround us and touch one another, and how truth and love and healing is transmitted in them. How can I truly understand the Lord's utterance, "The words I speak are spirit and life" if I do not strive, ask, seek, and knock? If I do not measure my observations with the findings of others, and obtain definition, how will I be able to teach others?

Now, I gather that Mr. Henry is an academic teacher, with a great intellectual capacity. What constitutes him "living in God's presence with integrity" surely would demand that he be himself, which he seems to have done quite admirably here. He has given himself relentlessly, and "played his part."
The result is that this thread is on page sixteen, due to his efforts and rather "provocative" style---hard work, indeed. Such resilience, sprinkled with a unique sense of humour!

Thank you, Rick Henry, for what you have drawn out of me, and so many others, and the way you always find something to build on in what we say.
I appreciate you.

Be brilliant in His Light.

Respectfully,

Learner

[Celinda Grace]

I must admit that I have been surprised by the tone of some of the responses here that apparently seek to put our dear brother, Mr. Rick Henry, in his place.

LOL Put Rick in his place? This irrepressable brother? I don't think any of us are cabable of such a thing. Every time we attempt to pull him back around he sits down with another cup of coffee, and off we go again. Maybe you should give up the coffee, heh Rick?

Of course who am I to talk? I am just as bad at attacking the Orthodox Church. I guess something that has been around for 2000 years is not going to collapse under the criticism of the likes of us, it is more likely that eventually we will run out of steam and give in.

I don't know Rick, do you think our spirit influence is more powerful or the Church's? :)

[M.C. Steenberg]

This thread is not about Rick, or anyone else. Please keep it to its focus.

INXC, Matthew

[Mary]

Dear Learner:


"Everything is permissible for me"—but not everything is beneficial. (1 Corinthians 6:12)

So, one can spread oneself thin and try to understand what every one has to say. Or one can put the blinds on and become 'narrow-minded' and dig deeper in one spot. Some, like the apostle Paul, were able to do both, because he says he became all things to all men to save as many as possible. (1 Cor 9:19-23). I am not anywhere near the apostle Paul's class of intellectual abilities, but there are many here who are. I hope, that I'm free to express my opinions amongst more worthy opinions, so that the greater minds among us won't forget that there are lesser minds for which such wide ranged discussions are not beneficial. (Of course, I'm fully aware that I'm free to leave any discussion that I do not find to be beneficial to me, so I'm taking full responsibilty for any damages I may incur.)


For example, Kornelius referred to "spirit influence" in his last post. I would really like to understand the dynamics of "spheres of influence" of individuals and groups, the energy fields that surround us and touch one another, and how truth and love and healing is transmitted in them. How can I truly understand the Lord's utterance, "The words I speak are spirit and life" if I do not strive, ask, seek, and knock? If I do not measure my observations with the findings of others, and obtain definition, how will I be able to teach others?

In my not so humble opinion, very few are called to teach others. So, my goal is to learn, to see myself as I truly am, in order to change myself, not in order to be able to teach others what I've learned.

And, as Celinda said, who can put Rick in his place? =) As long as he's armed with his coffee, he's invincible!

I don't know Rick, do you think our spirit influence is more powerful or the Church's? :)

Ours is. On ourselves, that is. I'm always the last person to recognize my own weaknesses, because I'm so good at deluding myself into believing that that I can't possibly be that way. So, I am very much under the power of my own influence. =) There should be some kind of warning for those who write while under their own influence - like the warnings against driving while drunk - it could be quite hazardous to life - the life of others even more than one's own....

Ok - time to stop writing - I just filled up with myself.

In Christ,

Mary.

[Owen Jones]

Will Herberg wrote a seminal book in the 1950's called "Protestant, Catholic and Jew." When asked why he had not included Orthodoxy in his book he said, "The Orthodox don't stand a chance in this culture."

So my advice is to forget totally about the ambient "culture," which is a non-culture, and begin being Orthodox. That would include, it seems to me, fostering a sensibility in the Church in which parents would be delighted if their sons and daughters became monastics.

[Effie Ganatsios]

Nina, wrote :

"we, the Orthodox, are very much behind "in evangelizing our culture" with Orthodoxy.................On the other hand one turns on the TV and there are always preachers and teachers from all non-Orthodox religions.

What are we Orthodox to do, since we do not and can not have the same means and media?"


(Nina, I answer this more directly at the end of this post).


Nina, we have the Orthodox Church of Greece's radio station and it's satellite TV channel. Don't you have something similar?

Their radio station is immensely popular because, apart from the 3 government stations here (which are very good), there seem to be hundreds of others that for the most part are just rubbish - as are the countless TV stations.

This radio station has very interesting discussions about a wide variety of subjects, not only religion. Every day it seems I am continuously making notes about books to buy, films to see, things to do, etc.

I listen to the liturgy early in the morning and immediately following this is a synopsis of the life of one of the saints that we celebrate that particular day. I find this very interesting - these people went through so much for their faith.

You mentioned Mother Gabriela. This is the list of books she recommends that each Orthodox read.

First, the Holy Gospel. Every day, one chapter in the morning and one in the evening.
- The Prophets. The Psalter
- The Epistle of St. James the Lord's Brother. Every day.
-The Way of the pilgrim
-The Cloud of Unknowing
-The Ladder of Divine Ascent by St. John Climacus
- St. Isaac the Syrian
- St. Maximus the Confessor
- St. Nilus
- St. Symeon the New Theologian
- The Imitation of Christ by Thomas Kempis

I haven't been able to find anything by St. Nilus.

You will notice that there are two non-orthodox books included in this list.

Concerning the eastern religions : One book that I like very much and have read several times is by a Vietnamese monk. It's called Living Christ Living Buddha I think - couldn't find it just now to write down the exact title.....

Surely we don't confine ourselves only to Orthodox reading. We have brains and are able to analyze what we read.

I have just returned from the city after returning a copy of Plato’s The Republic to the public library. Could anyone advise me not to read the classical Greek authors? So many things that we hear today – apparently original sayings from contemporaries – are just a repetition of what was written thousands of years ago.

This is from
HELLENIC PAIDEIA (MEANS EDUCATION)
AND CHURCH FATHERS - EDUCATIONAL PRINCIPLES AND CULTURAL HERITAGE

http://www.goarch.org/en/ourfaith/articles/article8143.asp


It was in the light of these and several moral precepts and ethical standards of the ancient Greeks that early Christian Fathers saw in ancient Greek thought elements or germs of divine revelation. The Cappadocian fathers in particular and the Alexandrian and several Antiochian theologians formulated the attitude of Orthodox Christianity toward the ancient Greek heritage. Basil the Great, Gregory of Nyssa, Gregory the theologian and John Chrysostom were contemporaries who lived between 329 and 407 of our era. They became successful men of letters, great theologians and church leaders. They had studied in Athens, Constantinople, and Antioch – the Athens of the East – and became effective social reformers, defenders of Orthodox Christianity, and supporters of Greek learning. ………………………..

The Three Hierarchs asked young people to probe and search for higher principles, because an educated person knows that there are values in human life which go beyond the physical and the temporary. They reminded their flock of what the Holy Scriptures write: that it is belief which determines conduct. As a man thinks in his mind, so is he. They taught the young that the supreme lesson of human life is that “man is more than what he eats and drinks” and that “one’s life does not consist of the things that one owns.”

The teachings of the Three Hierarchs derived from the Bible and the Greek classics, because the object of both is the formation of the perfect human person, indeed the salvation, the theosis, of the human being. “



I'm the classic bookworm - have been ever since I learnt to read. Books were always a top priority for me and I loved and respected them. Over the last few years though I have started to do something that was unthinkable a few years ago. I have started to throw away books ........books that I now realize have been used as vehicles for various reasons, books that have nothing to offer me (or anyone else) or rather they have something negative to offer. We should be very careful about what we choose to read but in no way should we close our eyes and ears and become narrow minded and insular.

Effie

[Effie Ganatsios]

This is a response to some of the posts concerning prayer :

I believe that our spiritual practices should be private. The advice I am usually given is “pray, pray, pray and God will show you the way”. And by prayer I mean the Orthodox morning and evening prayers and additional prayers during the day usually the Lord’s prayer and the Jesus prayer, quietly breathing in with the first part of the prayer and breathing out with the second. I also use my prayer rope (one I have made myself with amethyst beads) – this calms my mind. I do not fantasize or create images in my mind while praying – I concentrate on the words. I sometimes feel a loving, warm presence near me, especially when I am deeply troubled about something, but that might just be my imagination. We are told by the Fathers to beware of such things.

Holy Theofan the Recluse says :

“Pray without haste discerning every word and taking it close to your heart. … If your volatile thought should get distracted by other things during your prayer, exert yourself to focus your attention keeping your mind concentrated on the subject of your prayer. Bring your mind back to it every time it wanders away.
If some word in the prayer touches your soul in a special way, do not proceed with the prayer, but focus on that word or phrase, nourishing your soul with the attention, feeling and thoughts evoked by the word, stick to that state of mind until it fades away. This is a sign of the prayerful spirit beginning to enter you. That state of mind and soul is the most reliable way to cherish and strengthen the prayerful spirit in a person. “

Herman Baydoe’s Tolstoy story was full of wisdom. Only God can know the heart of man, only He knows how holy someone is or isn’t. One person might be capable of great intellectual feats, another might not be capable of putting two sentences together – this proves nothing. God’s message is true and simple and clear. Faith and love. Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us. Above all, Love. Not a sweet simpering love that is gushy and soft, but a love that says :I respect you, you are a unique person as we all are, I will never intentionally harm you and I will help you if I can.

We all read so many books…… I’m guilty of this too. We endlessly download articles etc from the Orthodox sites (and others) and, to be perfectly honest, I don’t even read them all. In doing all this we lessen the time spent alone with our God.

A lot of the Orthodox writers have helped me so much but I have realized that the Bible itself and prayer are what are important. You can’t force faith, you can’t force love, you can’t force forgiveness. No matter how diligently you apply reason to these there will come a point beyond which reason will not help you. First and foremost surrender yourself to God’s will, allow him access to your soul, and let Him do the work. The Fathers tell us of various methods that can help us – good, we can try them – but their experiences will not help us if we rely only on them.

Mother Gabriela says “ Put your hand in God’s hand and you will go wherever He leads you.

This is in reponse to Nina's comment (the one I mentioned in my previous post) Sorry, as usual I'm so organized!


We Orthodox do not try to persuade others to become Orthodox. If they ask us, we reply.

As an example of our beliefs we have only ourselves and our lives to offer, no words can be a substitute for this. If interest continues, we ask our priest for permission to give them his telephone number and he will instruct them and advise them as to which books might prove helpful to them.


Effie

[Rick H.]

***NOTE TO READER: After composing this post, and now, just before I hit the send button, I see Effie has just made two outstanding 'contributions' to this thread, and has us 'sitting on ready' in a most helpful way. And, in some ways, Effie's posts make the one that I have just written seem somewhat out of order--but, I spent all of this time typing it, so I want to post it :) . . . possibly, we can all pretend that I made this post first, and then Effie read it and responded to it ;) But, seriously, Effie, thank you very much for what you have shared in the above, there is so much good in these two posts! I am looking forward, very much, to grinding some quality beans and spending my coffee time savoring/reading what you have shared with us today.



A Failure to Communicate?






This is the first thing that I tell new catechumens, "Forget everything that you think you know and start from the beginning" Orthodoxy is about knowing Christ - not about spiritual exercises and so on. .







So my advice is to forget totally about the ambient "culture," which is a non-culture, and begin being Orthodox.



Dear Father David, Dear Owen, Dear fellow learners,

Father David, I woke up this morning and found myself thinking about your post from two days ago, quoted above. And, then I found myself wondering if what we have here, in this thread, the "Heart of Salvation!" *is* a failure to communicate (on a few different levels).

Please look at Owen's post too for a moment. How many, do you think, when they read or hear something like this wonder just what in the world does it mean to "begin being Orthodox"--just as they may wonder the same thing about what it means to ". . . start from the beginning . . . Orthodoxy is about knowing Christ." You see, based on my past (and present) experience, when you tell someone something like, "what you need to *do* is to just get Jesus into your heart" or something like "what you need is to know Christ--be Orthodox," the usual response is along the lines of "Umm . . . okay, thanks a lot pastor--see ya." In American Fundamentalism and in many areas of Evangelicalism, cliches are a huge part of the vocabulary and this is usually what the seekers of the Truth receive for their trouble when they enter this realm. And, this is the last thing that sincere seekers with deep yearnings want as they travel along on their journeys. Especially, the "Hitch-Hikers." True seekers become agitated when this is all that is offered. Such offerings as these are perceived as miserable vague statements with little or no meaning, that only add to their struggling and scuffling with the views they have been presented with, and in the end which only serve to bind them further. Such men and women who find themselves in a jungle of views, a wilderness of views, and would seek liberation, are in fact as another has said, "fettered by the fetters of their views!"

And, as we work our way to this place of understanding, we can all easily see the tremendous value and heavenly wisdom in what you have said above Father, "This is the first thing that I tell new catechumens, "Forget everything that you think you know and start from the beginning." And, the same is true of what Owen has said, "So my advice is to forget totally about the ambient "culture," which is a non-culture . . ." (even though I do enjoy ambient music somewhat, which some others also consider to be non-music :)

Yes, in light of the above state of being of many true seekers, a clean slate is most often exactly what is needed, and these statements are right on target.

But, then we need to be able to articulate[!] what it is one will begin to write on this now freshly cleaned slate, as it relates to their new way of knowing.

However, and again the second part of each of these two statements is the opposite of helpful--for the ones it is intended to help. In their search for enlightenment, we might as well say "blah-blah-blah" as to say "know Christ--be Orthodox." In fact we might actually serve the true seekers and learners much better to say "blah-blah-blah" in terms of not adding to their level of frustration. So as we try to communicate what it is we are trying to communicate, I think it is wise to consider who we are trying to communicate to, 'if' in fact we sincerely desire what is best for the other . . . and 'if' we genuinely would hope to be heard, as opposed to just a rank proving of our correctness/rightness and Ortho-doxy!

One would think this goes without saying.

But, back to my original point, about a possible failure to communicate, it occurred to me this morning that possibly the expression "A Personal Spiritual Practice" is providing a barrier of sorts. Because, it seems it is hard to get a discussion going about this in a practical way, in which we can articulate what we mean in a coherent fashion. Possibly, some may think this expression is something other than prayer, reading, meditation, fasting, or other personal means--each as is appropriate for oneself?

Could this possibly be that case?

In Christ,
Rick

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Effie wrote:



It was in the light of these and several moral precepts and ethical standards of the ancient Greeks that early Christian Fathers saw in ancient Greek thought elements or germs of divine revelation. The Cappadocian fathers in particular and the Alexandrian and several Antiochian theologians formulated the attitude of Orthodox Christianity toward the ancient Greek heritage. Basil the Great, Gregory of Nyssa, Gregory the theologian and John Chrysostom were contemporaries who lived between 329 and 407 of our era. They became successful men of letters, great theologians and church leaders. They had studied in Athens, Constantinople, and Antioch – the Athens of the East – and became effective social reformers, defenders of Orthodox Christianity, and supporters of Greek learning. ………………………..

You might want to read St Justin Martyr. His two Apologies and his Dialogue with Trypho are widely available in English and I would very much think also in Greek (that's the language of the original after all!).

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Father David Moser]

Father David, I woke up this morning and found myself thinking about your post from two days ago, quoted above. And, then I found myself wondering if what we have here, in this thread, the "Heart of Salvation!" *is* a failure to communicate (on a few different levels).

Having read the remainder of your comments, I would agree - we do seem to have a failure to communicate because you seem to have missed the point of what I was trying to say.

When I say "forget all that you think you know.." what I mean is that when one begins to come to the Orthodox Church one must leave behind all their old baggage, whether that be protestant baggage, R/C baggage, buddhist baggage, etc. Don't assume you know anything. Then start to pick up your Orthodox baggage afresh. As you sort through your Orthodox baggage (as you learn about the Orthodox faith) you will find that some of the things you had been carrying around were truly valuable and you still have them - but now in a new context and with a new understanding. Just because "item A" stays with you and is useful in Orthodoxy, don't assume that "items B, C, D ..." will also be useful. One needs to begin "as a little child" without presuppositions or the idea that one actually knows anything and willing to be taught and instructed by the Orthodox Church and especially by one's spiritual father. But having made such a beginning, one should also then learn about Orthodox, again, as a child - learning and absorbing, not teaching.

Then you attached my completely separate statement that Orthodoxy is about knowing Jesus Christ. Here I do not speak about "knowing about" but rather about becoming acquainted with, becoming friendly with, coming to know as a friend and companion. This is only partially and very incompletely accomplished by study "about" someone but is instead accomplished by spending time with them. For the Orthodox Christian that means primarily prayer. And not just any prayer - or even the prayers that you used in your previous life - but rather prayer as you are taught to pray by the Church (not by those outside the Church - and if you go back to the context of my statements, it was indeed in response to those who have this idea that we can learn about prayer from those outside the Church). Again, one must become as a little child, not knowing anything and willing to be taught even how to pray by the Orthodox Church.

By my statements, I was expressing only the above. Now if this is how you understood them, then fine, we are on the same page and are communicating. If not, then we are not communicating because I am not expressing myself well enough (or perhaps you are reading more into what I am saying than is there). So I guess any perceived disagreement does come down to "a failure to communicate"


But, back to my original point, about a possible failure to communicate, it occurred to me this morning that possibly the expression "A Personal Spiritual Practice" is providing a barrier of sorts. Because, it seems it is hard to get a discussion going about this in a practical way, in which we can articulate what we mean in a coherent fashion. Possibly, some may think this expression is something other than prayer, reading, meditation, fasting, or other personal means--each as is appropriate for oneself?

Could this possibly be that case?


I think that I can agree with your idea of "Personal Spiritual Practice" but with one very important amendment: "prayer, reading, meditation, fasting, or other personal means--each as is appropriate for oneself" as taught by the Orthodox Church and as given to you by your spiritual father.


Fr David Moser

[Rick H.]

Dear Effie, Dear Mary,

Effie, the Vietnamese monk that you couldn't remember is Thich Nat Hahn. At the risk of starting world war three here, I will share with you that I found this book that you mention enlightening too (as well as 'Peace is Every Step'). Actually, if I could afford it, I would own all of his books--and then I wouldn't have to read them just at Borders Bookstore :)

Thanks again for the many blessings in your posts today. I hope that you will not be a stranger from now on.

Mary . . .




Rick, believe it or not, I understand your frustration! But there is a reason for the extreme degree of subjectivity... Truth is a Person. So, the 'knowing' we're after, is a relationship, not a knowledge. Is there anyone who can give you precise instructions on how to get to know another person?

Simple-y confused Mary.



. . . 'Simple-y confused' huh? :) . . . yes, I think if we were honest most of us would say the same thing most of the time! But, thank you very much for you post, I appreciated it. And, just for the record you are preaching to the choir in the above sister. I will pull some numbers out of thin air now and say that my own personal relationship with Jesus Christ is about 99.9% subjective and .1% or less objective. So I am not frustrated with an extremely high degree of subjectivity as it relates to union with God and a personal relationship with God (knowing Him experientially and finding our very being in Him)--because this is what it's all about! This is the real thing!

What I am frustrated about is the one who will present his/her 'system' as being one that is very objective, when in fact it is very subjective. I dunno . . . does this make any sense?

There are two schools of thought here in this conversation, which can be represented by my exchange with Father David today in some ways. One example of this would be the way in which he is chilled about the thought of someone who he considers is not filled with the Grace of God and competent to share with another about the Spiritual Path, but on the other hand, I am chilled to the bone as I think about the one who would follow the system laid out in Father David's post, and blindly trust their spiritual life to anyone who has the title parish priest or monk, or whatever--this assumes way too much for me! But, enough of this for today Mary.

I really just wanted to say thanks to you for your email. It is helpful to me in various ways, not the least of which is that I can see that at least there is one person who can hear me, when I am speaking from my heart--and that is comforting in and of itself.

Peace to you Mary.

In Christ,
Rick

[Mary]

What I am frustrated about is the one who will present his/her 'system' as being one that is very objective, when in fact it is very subjective. I dunno . . . does this make any sense?


Rick, we're not yet at the place where we understand each other's words completely. What you just said in what I quoted above, makes TOTALLY no sense to me whatsoever! =)

As for the rest of what I wanted to say, Antonios pretty much said it word for word, so I won't repeat it.


I really just wanted to say thanks to you for your email. It is helpful to me in various ways, not the least of which is that I can see that at least there is one person who can hear me, when I am speaking from my heart--and that is comforting in and of itself.

Peace to you Mary.

In Christ,
Rick

You're most welcome. I believe most of us here do speak from our hearts, so it's only right to consider everyone's words ever so carefully and listen deeply.

For instance - I understood what Effie said, and even agreed with her, although she seemed to contradict with Nina. Of course I could add to the confusion by confessing the kind of stuff that I read and listen to (music wise) and think to myself: "Hey! That's so orthodox!" But I wouldn't recommend my entertainment list as good sources of spiritual enlightenment!

Peace to you, too =)

Mary.

[Rick H.]

I should stop now before I say something for which I will have to confess and repent.

Fr David Moser



Dear Father David,

Gotcha. Yes! It does sound like a time out is in order here. If you are up to it tomorrow, we can pick this back up then.

In Christ,
Rick

PS Dear Mary, Thanks for your smiley faces =) . . . I will have to catch up with you and Antonios another day, now it is time for tea in the garden with a good book :)

[Antonios]

Dear Rick,

You obviously will never become a monk, nor a priest.

Dear Rick,

I'm sorry for making such a statement. It was unneccessary and judgmental. Please forgive me.

Antonios

[Celinda Grace]

Ok, one last post before I close down for the morning.

Artist - Card, Michael
Album - The Final Word

There is a joy in the journey
There's a light we can love on the way
There is a wonder and wildness to life
And freedom for those who obey

And all those who seek it shall find it
A pardon for all who believe
Hope for the hopeless and sight for the blind

To all who've been born in the Spirit
And who share incarnation with Him
Who belong to eternity stranded in time
And weary of struggling with sin

Forget not the hope that's before you
And never stop counting the cost
Remember the hopelessness when you were lost

There is a joy in the journey
There's a light we can love on the way
There is a wonder and wildness to life
And freedom for those who obey
And freedom for those who obey...

[Mary]

Totally LOVE Michael Card! He has such a wonderful way with words. Joy in the Journey is one of my favorites. But the absolute best one is: The Final Word.

Mary

[John Charmley]

Dear Rick,

First, thank you for keeping the thread going so productively. If I can change the analogy, you have enabled us to clear away a great deal of undergrowth, and overgrowth, as well as to plough the field; let us hope we can plant some good seed.

You ask for examples of spiritual practice. I would hardly commend myself as an example of anything except the sinner falling perpetually short of what he knows he should do; but in the spirit outlined earlier by Celinda, I shall share what I try to do.

I have an electronic Katamarous, without which my spiritual practice would be even less regular than it is. It allows me to take the readings set by my Church for each day, and to access the Synaxarium and to spent time thinking about the Saints. So many of the latter I knew nothing of. Take today for example:

On this day also, Sts. Apakir, John, Ptolemy and Philip, were martyred. St. Apakir was born in the city of Damanhur, and had a rich brother called Philip. They had agreed with two priests, one called John and the other called Ptolemy, to receive the crown of martyrdom.

I try always to start the day with a prayer; usually one from the Coptic Book of Hours. On my way to work (I have about an hour's drive) I say the Prayer of the Heart and listen to something that will help me pray.

I always mean to do one of the other hours during the day, but seldom succeed. At best I try to take some time to pray the Prayer of the Heart. I have an old Rosary from my Anglican days, and use that from time to time. The e-katamarous is a great help during the day, as it allows me to take in another of the readings for the day. It usually reminds me that I have not managed to keep one of the many fast days which the Coptic Church has.

On the way home I try to pray again; I am trying to learn some of the prayers of the Agbia, but the conflict between that and the need not to crash can be interesting.

The evening usually allows time for the reading of something edifying - at the moment St, Cyril's scholia. Then, of course, there is a hour on good old Monachos - reading, and posting - but trying to do more of the former and less of the latter. Then, prayer before bedtime.

Some days I even manage to do all of this - they are the good ones. Most days I fall short.

In Christ,

John

[Rick H.]

A Common Ground (of understanding)!




Forgive me if I have gotten somewhat off topic here but hopefully I hit our common ground of understanding on this one----



Dear Karena,

Thank you very much for this addition! I am starting to think there is something very good in the water up there in Winnipeg! Possibly, if you could send me some in bottles, then I could write in a more balanced way as you have here, and as you fellow Winnipegian has here and elsewhere.

And, after reading your post which does hit a bulls-eye in "our common ground of understanding" . . . I think, now, it was a mistake to try to limit the conversation as I have suggested in my last post. I see now that we are on page nineteen here, so if we get a conversation on a personal spiritual practice beginning with John's most gracious and generous last post, then fine; otherwise, let's just finish this one out like we did the A.O. thread when it was in its final days. Let's just keep going until the plug is pulled just as we have been.

And, I say this after reading your statement in the following:




If a person is on a 'correct path' where both sides of humanity and spirituality are working in conjunction with Christ as the centerpiece the 'correct people' will be presented unto us by the grace of the Holy Spirit.

This speaks volumes to me! Yes, "a correct path and the correct people." Especially, as it relates to 'both sides' of humanity and spirituality, as you say, and on a Christocentric Ground! Talk about "A Common Ground." Yes, Karena, I think you have definitely hit the center of the target here. And, I have been wondering what the title of a new thread could be in this, "Tradition. Scripture, Intellect, and Experience" area, but I think I can clearly see after the events of today, and after reading your post here, that the next thread will be titled "A Common Ground."

And, as you share the following:




Before some are found there can often be times of confusion that can lead us into inappropriate relationships, and there never really is any kind of human logic or decision made that creates a harmonious relationship of perfection. But through the stages up the ladder of faith that hold contentment, peace, freedom and finally deliverance we do gain wisdom and (hopefully) get better at making these choices.

Being blind is not a good idea however we should never underestimate the flow of Gods grace or the Truthful essence of the Holy Spirit helping us in these decisions.



I can appreciate what is said about the stages up the ladder of faith and never underestimating the flow of God's grace, and I can share with you that this brings a peace to my heart just reading these words as they are written.

So, saving the next 'rung' for tomorrow, where I will attempt to gain a further clarification of the "dual meaning" that Father David spoke of this evening, please allow me to say thanks again Karena for stopping by to serve up this ace tonight, as well as point the way to our next thread. Your additions are most welcome here.

In Christ,
Rick

PS Father David, did I just here you say UGH! over there in Idaho? :)

[Effie Ganatsios]

Celinda in message 346 quoted the Ascetic of Love " "It is not what we say but what we live, it is not what we do but what we are."


This is what I quite ineptly tried to say in a previous post. Our lives and who we are should be what attracts non-orthodox people to our faith. It doesn't matter what we say because "words are cheap" and we all know people who talk a lot but don't do what they say -e.g. our architect/engineer,but I won't go into that....................


Most of us are full of theories - first and foremost myself - but I find that I can only try and try and try again to live according to the rules Jesus gave us. In primary school we were told the story of Robert Bruce the Scot and the little spider. That's us - little spiders trying to climb our thread (nothing to do with "thread" as in forum) but slipping down to the floor each time. Our greatest achievement is picking ourselves up and trying again.

I think that Monachos net is invaluable. People here start a thread and then others contribute. Each post gives us something new to think about. We think, look up references, sometimes the discussion goes off in another direction, sometimes a particular sentence or thought jumps off the page and we connect with it or, someone's post makes so much sense and you say to yourself - that's it, that's what was inside my head but I couldn't find the words to say it! As I said this forum is invaluable and we can only thank God that it exists.

[Effie Ganatsios]

John wrote :

“I try always to start the day with a prayer; usually one from the Coptic Book of Hours. On my way to work (I have about an hour's drive) I say the Prayer of the Heart and listen to something that will help me pray.”

The above reminded me of a story I read a few years ago written by an orthodox doctor in which he outlines his views and his belief that his faith was part of being a good doctor.



He used to get up in the morning, and while driving to work, turn on the radio and listen to the news. He found that what he heard was affecting him negatively. I can’t remember why but something made him decide to buy tapes of the orthodox liturgy and he said that listening to the liturgy every morning while driving to work proved to be a blessing – one he didn’t expect – and that the positive effect lasted all day at work, allowing him to help his patients more.

John you also say : “Some days I even manage to do all of this - they are the good ones. Most days I fall short.” Exactly my own situation.

My husband’s routine is so simple and so pious. He gets up in the morning, has a shower (a form of respect towards God – this is the way he was taught by his mother), and then stands in front of our icon corner, crosses himself and silently prays. At night, before he goes to bed he does exactly the same thing. He has been doing this all his life. He does however listen to the news over coffee every morning!!!

Effie

[John Charmley]

Dear Effie,

You ask
John, is that the same as the electronic Menologion I have on my computer?
Yes, I think it must be. Mine is, of course, a Coptic version, but it sounds like the same thing. Mine comes from St. Mark's Coptic Church, Troy, Michigan; I find it an invaluable aid; and I can go away afterwards to the Orthodox Study Bible and follow up anything which I need to.

Your husband's routine sounds a little like mine; that radio over breakfast is something I ought to do without! It is now sandwiched between morning prayer and prayer in the car - but I don't feel it helps me.

I was struck, writing down what I try to do, by how little it is; and yet I am seldom not conscious of Him. When I was received into the British Orthodox Church I decided to do two things: to have some icons in my office at work; and to have a crucifix lapel-pin on my jacket. Oddly enough those have turned out to be two of the most difficult things to have done, but also some of the most worthwhile.

Difficult because I work at a UK University which is so secular it does not even have a Christian Students Union! It has never been easy being a declared Conservative in such an environment, and my Anglicanism was always looked on as another sign that I was more than a trifle odd (one of my younger colleagues, now a friend, was warned on arrival that he'd come to a place where the Head of Department not only thought Mrs. Thatcher was a good thing, but he also went to Church - said in tones, I am told, of muted horror that such a phenomenon could exist in the modern world). The arrival of the icons and the pin raised a few more eyebrows. At one point it looked as though someone might complain (the 'Lenin' posters in another colleague's room being, of course, fine and dandy), but, thus far, no one has. But for me it has been important to make some public sign of my Faith - not ostentatiously (the pin is in my button hole and the icons in the corner), but to have some sign of Him about me always. I find myself praying silently at moments.

The falling short always grieves me, but when one is learning to walk, one falls over; what matters is getting up - and not giving up. The reading is a joy - but incorporating it seamlessly into praxis is the daily challenge - and with His help, all things are possible.

I hope that Rick will find here, and in what you write so movingly, examples of spiritual practice to illustrate the main theme here. Oddly, or not, it no longer seems like a spiritual practice - or at least not something I do apart from the rest of my life; it is my life, and everything else is material practice, if that makes any kind of sense to anyone out there.

In Christ,

John

[Lourens]

John Charmley wrote:

Oddly, or not, it no longer seems like a spiritual practice - or at least not something I do apart from the rest of my life; it is my life, and everything else is material practice, if that makes any kind of sense to anyone out there.

Rick Henry pointed out:

PS Speaking of 'a particular sentence that just seems to jump off the page,' I wonder how many folks noticed what John said in his closing paragraph, in his last post?

(*insert big smiley*)

Well, Rick, I did, and it spoke to me. It confirmed to me that a contribution I hesitantly intended, in regards to a personal practice, might not be so out of place after all. Goodbye, hesitancy!

When I first took an interest in the contemplative/monastic life, I came across the idea of a Rule, of course. Given my disposition and previous spiritual formation, I resisted the idea of (yet another) "set of rules." But I remember when the lights came on, and I understood what a Rule of Life was.

It was what ruled one's life; what governed it; what ordered it.

Everyone's life is either ordered by rules, or governed by chaos, or mostly, perhaps, a good mix between some fixed habits, and loose, laissez faire disorder.

So, I must confess: I failed miserably to maintain the highly ordered, strict daily routine I set up for myself. I then realized that I should keep things real simple.

I started to observe my Rule, and for a while things went according to plan---until I gained Internet access from home: soon my entire day revolved around forum participation, and oh boy, was that enjoyable! But it is highly addictive, which means that it rules one's life before you know it.

I am happy to report, though, that I am making progress in reading and writing in a much more disciplined way, and have firmly resolved to go back to my Rule, which means tearing myself away from the computer screen at least twice a day: early morning and late afternoon.

The Rule is simply this:

Observe sunrise.

Observe sunset.


Today I did.

Thank God.

Respectfully,

Learner.

[Rick H.]

Thank You!

Dear Effie, Dear John, Dear 'Learner,'

Effie, firstly, about the Menologion programme from :

http://saintjohnwonderworker.org/menologion.htm


I downloaded this yesterday and this is great, thank you very much for sharing this with us. What a blessing it is for me and probably some others as well who have read this (and will in the future!). What a great example of how simply sharing something from one's own personal spiritual practice can benefit others who would like to see a growing/ripening in their own. Yes, "spiritual brothers and sisters!"

And, again, today Effie, we see evidence of your statement, from yesterday, that monachos.net is 'invaluable,' as John has shared a wonderful gem from Irenaeus:




A sound mind, and one which does not expose its possessor to danger, and is devoted to piety and the love of truth, will eagerly meditate upon those things which God has placed within the power of mankind, and has subjected to our knowledge, and will make advancement in [acquaintance with] them, rendering the knowledge of them easy to him by means of daily study.



Thanks so much for this John. Who can hear what is said here? "Eagerly meditate!"

It appears that I need to pull Irenaeus from the shelf sometime this weekend and hear more. Look at the "beautiful heavenly balance" that is presented here. Karena, do you think it is possible Irenaeus was in Canada at one point drinking the water? But, sadly, for some, this may be incomprehensible and appear to be fluff; however, what substance and what content for those who have ears (and in this case eyes as well). Thank you for this feast John.

And, Mr. 'Learner' . . . after reading you last post, I have no words for you at the present (until such a time as I can give a proper response to the beautiful pearls that you have cast). Yes, there is a "solicited rapture" but there is also an "unsolicited rapture." Hmmm . . . And, for now, I can share with you as well, that the four words that you placed in bold faced type *are* the very four words that appeared to me as being in bold face type when I read them (even thought they weren't when John penned them). Yes, as Effie has said, sometimes they just jump out at us when we read them. So, possibly, this means that it is time for either you or I to start worrying :) . . . but, seriously, for now, thank you for what you have shared, for this blessing which points the way to A Common Ground.

But, most of all, we thank the One who gives us the sunrise and the sunset.

In Christ,
Rick

PS Thanks again John for these four words, "it is my life."

[Rick H.]

A Personal Spiritual Practice


Dear Matthew, Dear All,

Ahhhhhhhhhh! . . . breathing room! This is very nice. http://cdn-cf.aol.com/se/smi/0201d201a5/01 Inhale (slowly-deeply) . . . exhale (slowly-deeply) . . . inhale . . . exhale . . . inhale . . . exhale . . . now, return to normal breathing, yes, very nice.

Thanks again Matthew for the grounding and the centering that you have provided for us. I must say that your analytical mind and systematic approach to the threads/discussions (and not least the Orthodox Way!) is most helpful, and much appreciated.

Yes, in the post above, for those who wish to discuss 'spiritual fatherhood' or a 'rule of prayer,' there are now links to two excellent threads--primed and ready to go. I, myself, am interested in the "practice" of a rule of prayer as well as the "nature and role" of spiritual fatherhood.

And, there are other topics that I am interested in as well. I have been considering one in particular which has not been brought up in the past, as far as I know; but, I have been in "hot pursuit" of this topic during the past year. And, while I have no intention of bringing it up here, I say all of this to share some advice that a friend has given me in the past as it relates to all such hot pursuits. This person listened to my 'monkey mind' at work as I demonstrated my struggling/wrestling to understand, and when I was done, I was given some twofold advice. The first part of the advice was contained in the following:





"Shhhhhhhhhh . . ."



And, the second part was (and I paraphrase):





'Sometimes to merely exist as we are patiently, and "BE," is all we have to do in order for the answers to come to us.'




And, now something comes to mind that one of our Monachos members said yesterday. Yesterday, Maria said:




Wherever we are...whatever life we are given, we need to be content and seek to know what it is we are to do in the place and time of now.




But, as for the present, hopefully we can pick up where we left off, as it relates to developing a personal spiritual practice, (each as is appropriate for oneself).

Possibly, I can begin working my way back towards what Learner has shared, in his last post by sharing from a conversation I had with a person last night at (you guessed it) a place that sells coffee :) My friend shared with me that she was leaving for the Bahamas this Friday early, and she hopes to have her feet in the sand by 2:00 PM. She shared with me that she is going to participate in a two day retreat of yoga and meditation.

I know many Christians, in my local parish and elsewhere, who find the postures and breathing techniques of yoga, and meditation to be a most helpful 'vehicle' in their personal spiritual practice. These same friends and associates of mine are quite diverse. But, in spite of their labels, or lack of labels, 'all' seem to be what one might consider a kind of 'pilgrim' or a kind of 'hitchhiker.' But, and here's the thing that I really appreciate about these folks who appreciate some breathing room in their personal spiritual practice, this varied group of folks (in terms of culture & 'customs') seems to have all journeyed separately to a place that can be described as "a common ground." Or, as many of them prefer to think of IT as being the Kingdom of God. But, not just any common ground--this is a common ground with Christ at the center--a christocentric common ground. Whereby, about Him all individuals and all groups seem to be gathered in a true community, with what appears to me to be a true koinonia of the Spirit of Life, the Holy Spirit of God.

And, this is not limited to the ones who practice the asanas and breathing of yoga, and meditation as a part of their personal spiritual practice, but I see this elsewhere as well. I see it here in some cases! It is quite obvious that there is a turning from both a rank particularism, and a mere individualism, by some here who opt for a true community/common ground which is Christ centered and grounded in Him. The historic Orthodox way, as it relates to a true catholicity, has nothing to do with a freedom suppressing legalism or an empty formalism in Her worship or practice, does She?

Regardless of one's tribe or herd, labels are meaningless in the Kingdom of God. And, as it relates to a personal spiritual practice, or 'custom' of life, the same occurs to me now. And, there is so much more to this, but this one is long enough for today.

I have learned yesterday, in the study bible thread, that Fr. Jack Sparks is recognized as a leading authority in Orthodoxy today. Especially, in light of Learners last post, possibly to bring up some of Fr. Sparks work here, in this thread, may be in order?

Shalom-Shalom.

In Christ,
Rick

[Effie Ganatsios]

Rick wrote :


" My friend shared with me that she was leaving for the Bahamas this Friday early, and she hopes to have her feet in the sand by 2:00 PM. She shared with me that she is going to participate in a two day retreat of yoga and meditation.

I know many Christians, in my local parish and elsewhere, who find the postures and breathing techniques of yoga, and meditation to be a most helpful 'vehicle' in their personal spiritual practice. These same friends and associates of mine are quite diverse. But, in spite of their labels, or lack of labels, 'all' seem to be what one might consider a kind of 'pilgrim' or a kind of 'hitchhiker.' But, and here's the thing that I really appreciate about these folks who appreciate some breathing room in their personal spiritual practice, this varied group of folks (in terms of culture & 'customs') seems to have all journeyed separately to a place that can be described as "a common ground." Or, as many of them prefer to think of IT as being the Kingdom of God. But, not just any common ground--this is a common ground with Christ at the center--a christocentric common ground. Whereby, about Him all individuals and all groups seem to be gathered in a true community, with what appears to me to be a true koinonia of the Spirit of Life, the Holy Spirit of God.

Rick[/QUOTE]

Rick, I believe that we have to be very careful concerning yoga. There are severa; yoga disciplines. I practiced hatha yoga – which is the physical exercise yoga – for years. But only as a form of exercise. I didn’t want or need to delve into its philosophical areas because of my Orthodox faith.

It’s so very easy to “progress” from the purely physical routines into the philosophy realm of yoga, that’s why we need to be extremely careful. I feel that’s why adherents of eastern religions, when trying to attract followers, concentrate on the physical benefits of Yoga – they practically ignore the spiritual side of Yoga at first.

We Orthodox have our own methods of meditation and these are very different from those of Yoga. Repeating a mantra or a special word endlessly has no place in our religion. Christ said :

“Be not ye therefore
like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of,
before ye ask him. After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which
art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name…”(Matt.6:7-9).

Another quote :

“The same striving for "holy and divine feelings," the same openness and willingness to be "seized" by a spirit, the same seeking not for God but for "spiritual consolations," the same self-intoxication which is mistaken for a "state of grace," the same incredible ease with which one becomes "contemplative" or "mystical," the same "mystical revelations" and pseudospiritual states. These are the common characteristics of all who are in this particular state of spiritual deception.”

Deep breathing has been used successfully to calm our nerves, to lower our blood pressure, etc. But we need to draw the line here. Mystical experiences in the orthodox faith are given to those whose souls are given fully to God. If we all had mystical experiences because we “cleansed our minds of thoughts” and breathed deeply for 10 mins a day, then we would all be saints. I should mention here that scientific tests carried out on nuns while they were praying showed changes in their brain patterns – I wrote this from memory so if any other posters know more please help here. Pray is a powerful tool – not only for others but for ourselves.

Another quote concerning Yoga and various eastern practices :

“These movements have no foundation in Christian tradition or practice, but are purely the product of Eastern pagan religions or of modern spiritism, more or less diluted and often presented as "non-religious." They not only teach wrongly, not in accordance with Christian doctrine, about spiritual life; they also lead one, whether through pagan religious experiences or psychic experiments, into a wrong spiritual path whose end is spiritual and psychic disaster, and ultimately the loss of one's soul eternally.”

Remember LSD and the drugs of the 60’s. Another “path” to mystical experiences that proved disastrous- but not until a lot of people destroyed millions of cells in their brains.

If you are truly interested in the Orthodox faith then read the lives of the Holy Fathers and observe the paths they chose to find God. Again, as I said in another post, it’s a matter of choice. God has given us free will. We are lucky in that so many others before us have fought our battles for us leaving us an inheritance of spirituality that we can rely on.

Fasting, praying, humility, living simply, etc. are our tools to help us. We have Christ before us, as our example, as our path. He is the Truth, He is the Way.

And Rick, you are right when you say “Shhhh”. Remember : “Be still and know that I am God”.

Dear Rick, just one more quote :

"Hebrews 13:8-9

Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever. Do not be led away by diverse and strange teachings, for it is good for the heart to be strengthened by grace, not by foods, which have not benefited those devoted to them."

[Rick H.]

Dear Effie,

Thanks very much for your latest post. I appreciate your open, direct, and fair style of thinking/writing. I try to present what is on both sides of the isle as well, at times, when beginning a new exploration, or a new direction, in a conversation.

I would like to bring in some quotes from the church fathers and saints on this, and refer back to some comments that Father Raphael has made about this aspect of our lives in the very near future.

However, for now, I think I will sit back to see if we have any other 'takers' at this stage of things.

In Christ,
Rick

PS Yes, again, Effie, as you quoted above, "“Be still and know that I am God”.

[Fr. David C.]

Little mention of Christ in Thomas Merton's books? You must be kidding,or,you are totally unacquainted with them.Start with The Seven Storey Mountain,a fascinating autobiography of a man who had much tragedy in his young life and then finally came to the realization that Christ was not just the only way, but that life was truly fulfilled when he dedicated himself totally to Him.