The indwelling Logos and union with God

[Rick H.]

A Casting of Pearls: The Logos of God or A Neurotic Mysticism?

Dear All,

Here is the second part from yesterday's lengthy post. Yesterday, I wrote about Mourad's question about virtue. Today I am writing about a spiritual life, in the hope of evoking a response that speaks directly to what has been said in this thread very recently by some. It seems at times that people make very dogmatic statements (seemingly supported by Patristic Theology and Monastic study) here on monachos, about the Orthodox Way, but then when it is time to support what has been said, these same people are no where to be found!

And, the reader needs to understand, as I think most of us already know, some things can be best be communicated in an academic or systematic way. Other things cannot. So, this post is "wordy" and very descriptive (and somewhat 'chatty') intentionally. And, knowing this may still qualify for 'the old heave ho,' and also knowing sometimes we do a better job than at other times . . . it is what it is, so we will see.

(Illustration written yesterday)

I, just returned home about an hour ago from fishing with my two daughters at Ceasars Creek Lake in Waynesville, Ohio. As the sun was coming up on the horizon of the water, we found ourselves in a secluded cove surrounded by trees--a thick forest. The birds (large and small) were doing what they do best, the forest critters were rustling through the floor of the woods, and the fish were jumping and landing with a splash every so often in the water, During our time on the water, I found myself in a type of meditative/comtemplative state whereby the orange morning sun was reflecting off of the water, and the trees seemed to take on a different hue, sometimes a darker green, sometimes a lighter green, and in a spontaneous and non-contrived way, I found myself in a state of being that I think some would consider to be a spiritual state.

In the past, I have never questioned this before. I have always felt like this was a Divine gift of communion with the Creator God by means of His Creation. The first time this ever happened to me, I was coming out of a building in Cincinnati, Ohio about eight years ago, I was actually rushing out of the door, because I was late to be somewhere . . . when, I was overwhelmed by the field and woods behind this building. I was stopped dead in my tracks by this feeling and sight. I was overwhelmed with the feeling of a spiritual presence in my being, unlike anything before. I had never experienced anything like this before, I felt very calm and very loved, I felt saturated in Love like never before. The plants and trees were more 3-D, and a brighter hue than normal. I went to school in this building for 3 years and was very familiar with the normal appearance of things. It was as if I was "high" on a drug. But, I was not afraid, it was a very peaceful, very good thing. I remember just standing there being very happy, and almost as if to just to listen to myself, I heard myself asking the question, "Is this You Jesus?"

And, I heard no answer, and even had no sense of an answer, but I smiled as I somehow just knew as if I had always known, that yes this is You Jesus.

I was upstairs in the library of the school, that day, preparing a sermon for the following Sunday. And the following Sunday I spoke of this experience as one of the greatest blessings of my life. That Sunday I confessed to having felt like I had had an intimate relationship with God the Father in the past, and I confessed to having felt like I have had an intimate relationship with God the Holy Spirit in the past; however, I also confessed to not having felt like I have had the same close personal relationship with the Son, Jesus the Christ.

This was always a thing that grieved me in the past when I would consider it. I had prayed for a more full knowledge of Christ. And, here I am not speaking of an intellectual knowledge or facts or such things as would fit into one's christology. But, the same experiential knowledge of Jesus the Logos of God, just as I have experienced with the Holy Spirit of God, and with God the Father Himself. And, I explained to my congregation that day, after making the initial confession, that I feel that God had answered my prayer, just a few days before. And, since that day, when I feel that Jesus comes to me in this way, as He chooses, and when He chooses, I have never questioned the correctness of this Gift. And, possibly, it was Owen Jones in another thread yesterday who said something like "Orthodox worship is very sensual;" but even as it relates to this train of thought, I have, in the past, as well as due to what has been said in this thread in the past few days, considered the possibility of delusion and such teaching as the old deluder coming as an Angel of Light. But, after pondering this, when I do, I repent, each time for doubting or questioning the beautiful Gift that I have received and still receive to this day from which I am fully persuaded is a type of sacrament through nature, or is a type of cosmic liturgy in this sense whereby there is a true participation with the Logos of God when and as He best sees fit.

And, I could tell you about a contorted hazelnut tree in my back yard that I planted about five years ago. It is positioned dead center off of my back patio. Sometimes I sit on my back patio and there is a similar story to be told about this tree. But, possibly between the above three examples there may be some fodder here for another to use as a springboard to bring about an increased sense of awareness for myself, and maybe some others--which would be most welcome.

And, hopefully, as I have cast my pearls today in a very open and transparent way, there will not be a trampling into the ground of these. My Lord says, that I am not to cast my pearls before swine. But, I do not see any swine here. At the present, I see only a "place of blessing."

But, either way, may God protect this "place of blessing" so that more may feel free to cast their pearls for the benefit of all as we further consider The Heart of Salvation!

In Christ,
Rick

[Rick H.]

Peace/Shanti

Dear Celinda, Dear Jetavan, and All,

Firstly, please allow me to say thank you both for the very high caliber contributions here today. As I take what you both have contributed today, and compare it to what Father Raphael has presented in his comparison and contrast of the one on the Christian path and the good man outside of the Church (which Fr. R. spoke of as being the Zen Buddhist), this helps me to understand with great speed the distinction which is being made. And, this helps to me to understand in more depth my own Tradition in the Holy Orthodox Church. This will be an excellent resource for the archives.

And, in particular, this helps me to understand also in a fuller way my original question about a personal spiritual practice--in terms of some of the similarities that I see in the Philokalia (in terms of 'practice' or methods and techniques), as I consider the Orthodox Way.

So, this today, in addition to the other discussion in the past two days, is really pure gold from my point of view. Especially, as we bring virtues into the mix and consider the 'End' result(s) of what is being said (as you worded it so well Celinda!) . . . and this even brings me to consider actually becoming a paid subscriber to Monachos.Net! Because, you cannot get this kind of thing anywhere else that I know of.

Where else can this degree of 'learning' about the Orthodox Way take place for average folks like you and I? Nowhere that I now of. Just try to get a conversation on this level going in your usual coffee spots and places of fellowship. I have personally learned so much here in the past week or so that I am very grateful to everyone for their willingness to participate.

And, it is my wish that this very dynamic continues! This is what I've always hoped for in this thread. And, you knew it was coming . . . but :) . . . I am becoming just a little concerned that we are moving towards the out of bounds marker here, and are possibly in danger of getting "flagged." And, I really don't want this to get shut down. So, I hope we can keep going as we are, but possibly keep in mind the purpose of monachos as it relates to Eastern Orthodoxy. As I think everyone here knows, I am very open to discussing the Orthodox Way and learning about my Tradition via many means. Sometimes showing non-"A," can be very helpful to the understanding of some, like me, as it relates to "A."

But, for what it may be worth, I would just like to offer this thought, and possibly suggest very gently that we bring it back to the "middle way" a little more, all things considered.

In the past (when I do not exceed my one espresso per day limit :), we have tended to self-moderate ourselves pretty well here in this thread, for the most part. So, please stay[!] and continue, this really is pure gold here on both of your parts. And, please forgive me if it seems I have overstepped my bounds here, because I bow to both of you.

Your servant In Christ,
Rick

PS If you two go off line with this, where there are no holds barred (in terms of depth and focus), please let me know becuase I would like to join a discussion of that nature as well.

[Rick H.]

Experience/Encounter - 2
Neurotic Mysticism ---- 0

Dear All,

On another front, from my post this morning which asked the question: "The Logos of God or a Neurotic Mysticism?" . . . so far I have received two PM's from two individuals, whom I respect very much, indicating that there is no neurosis involved in what was shared, but just the opposite in terms of a true Truth.

So, this means that so far in our unofficial poll there are two votes for experience/encounter and no votes for a neurotic mysticism.

In Christ,
Rick

[John Charmley]

Dear Rick,

Make that 3 for Experience/Encounter.

The following from Abba Matta el-Meskin (Matthew the Poor) seems relevant at this point:

The road to union with God is not a one way street ending solely with God: on the return journey it leads back to one's neighbour, the stranger, one's enemy, and towards all creation ...
Today unity is a subject sought in every field to prepare for the union of all with God. This is nothing but an illusion: unity cannot be temporarily 'separated' from God so as to be a means of access to God ...
Unity without the divine presence is nothing more than an idea, a matter for discussion, or a vain longing. But in the presence of God unity becomes real and visible, overflowing and life-giving, and many live it. When Christ is present in the midst of a community in conflict, controversy cannot keep from ceasing. Every member must begin to fill his eyes and his heart with true unity, and prepare his whole being to receive unity and to give it. The Communion of Love (1984)

In the end, the beginning, and in both, Him,

John

[Celinda Grace]

Rick,

Thanks for keeping us on track. Your post on Casting Pearls brought to mind some thoughts I had written a while ago on how God meets our deepest desires for recognition and love.

Maybe you will enjoy it.

What are the deepest, most universal longings of the human heart? What do we most desire? Would you agree that we want to be intimately known and perfectly loved and also that we want to be valued for who we are, we want to feel important? Love and glory – this is what we were made for, and this is what we are inheriting in Jesus Christ.

When Jesus first called his disciples he said, “Come follow me.” Just before he left his disciples he gave them a new command –“Abide in me.” (Jn 15:4) The disciples lived for three years being awed by Jesus and being taught Him. Now the call was to come live in Him. In Him they would become like Him.

He said to them “I go to prepare a place for you. If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.” Jn 14:3 He was not preparing some place ‘out there’ for us to dwell, He was preparing Himself so that we might live in Him, and through Him in the Father.

What do we find in this house that Jesus has prepared.

“The glory which You have given me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as we are one; I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them even as You have loved Me.”

First we have been given Christ’s glory. In the beginning God gazed on his creation and rejoiced in it saying it was very good. In Christ, he again looks at us and rejoices over what he sees. We shine with beauty, goodness, strength- the reflected glory of Christ. And not only do we receive glory, but we have the awesome privilege of being able to bring glory to God. (Jn 15:8) Through our life and our works other men are enabled to see and rejoice in the glory of God. We are like the moon that reflects the light of the sun even in the dark of night when the sun itself cannot be seen.


II Cor 3:18And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit. (see also Rom 8:18, 9:23)
The second thing we gain in Christ is love; a passionate, all consuming love that loves us from the very depths of our soul to the least hair on our head. He loves us totally because He knows us fully. His love is so intimate that He whispers his Song of Songs in the deepest, most secret places of our hearts. It is so strong that he will not stop until He has won us for Himself and perfected us to the point that we can return His love. In Christ we are caught up into the Love that the Father and Son have for each other and this love and oneness become ours also.

Our plight at the current time is that we have not realized this glory or love. We are blinded by a love of this earth and a striving after a glory of our own, apart from Christ. We have a promise, but do not see it lived out in our own experience so we resign ourselves to a hope of better things in heaven. However, God has promised, not just that we shall receive these things after we are resurrected, but that the kingdom of God is at hand, it is within us. We can know the joy of God’s love and the satisfaction of His glory Now. John appeared in the wilderness preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. But we are not left in the wilderness, separated from God and man. We do not receive only forgiveness. Jesus baptizes with the Holy Spirit and his message is, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand, repent and believe the good news!” (Mark 1)

[Rick H.]

A Grand Illusion?




The road to union with God is not a one way street ending solely with God: on the return journey it leads back to one's neighbor, the stranger, one's enemy, and towards all creation ...


Today unity is a subject sought in every field to prepare for the union of all with God. This is nothing but an illusion: unity cannot be temporarily 'separated' from God so as to be a means of access to God ...


Unity without the divine presence is nothing more than an idea, a matter for discussion, or a vain longing. But in the presence of God unity becomes real and visible, overflowing and life-giving, and many live it. When Christ is present in the midst of a community in conflict, controversy cannot keep from ceasing. Every member must begin to fill his eyes and his heart with true unity, and prepare his whole being to receive unity and to give it.

The Communion of Love (1984)



Dear John, and All:

I appreciated what you said in your post to Peter on Monday. And, even more, so in your post from yesterday where you shared the words [above] of Abba Matta el-Meskin (Matthew the Poor) from The Communion of Love. It is so easy for us to read right over things at times, and miss pearls of great price in something like this. Luckily we have a good doctor in the house who does not read right over such things, but embraces and shares what he has found for the good of us all. What a blessing, again, the procession of gifts continues here in this place.

Yes, "the return Journey"--'the Beginning.' Especially as it relates to this 'retrieval effort,' . . . how profound! How very profound! But, I am willing to bet that at least 99 out of 100 people have never stopped once in their life to consider what is being said here.

And, yes, "Union with God, and Unity." In relation to the "hard furrow to plow" that you also mentioned to Peter, How can there not be a unity of this nature, lest it is "nothing but an illusion" as said above! A Grand Illusion. And, it is hard sometimes to talk about such things as this without making a distinction between the individual and the community. But, just as is implied in the above, it is only in the presence of God that there is not distinction. No separation. But only a 'Common Ground' is found within The Communion of Love. So here again we see that when entering the soil of experience/encounter it is mystical; but, it is also a very down to earth. And, what seems complex initially, when only considered intellectually and afar, becomes very simple and very beautiful when we allow ourselves to simply think differently, at times, just as Matthew has said elsewhere:




But perception of truth in Christ is a reality that requires a conversion of our understanding, of our approach to understanding; that demands a spinning about on the heels of our normal way of approaching 'complex issues', starting from different walks altogether, and realizing that what is being encountered is not in fact complex, but simple, if the mind is properly converted to it. And that conversion comes often through dramatic change in ways of thinking.



But, once again, today, we find ourselves awkwardly pointing with words, the best that we can, to the Holy Silence of God that is beyond description. And, once again, this morning, I sit here mentioning such things as individualism and community (and particularism), which are both helpful to consider and a hindrance as it relates to a dramatic change in ways of thinking. And, we find ourselves considering once more whether we have put our faith in a system or a Person for OUR salvation?

As Abba Matta el-Meskin speaks of the 'community-in-conflict,' where is the koinonia of the Holy Spirit in this? For any group/herd/tribe, virtual or local visible, there can be no "genuine" assembly or "authentic" church-without-community can there? What is a church-without-koinonia? But, now I am heading back to "The Church: It's limits and boundaries" with this. So I will stop. That for another time.

But, for now, I am thinking of the first concert that I ever attended. As a 15 year old boy, at a brand new, very fancy outdoor park, located in a wooded country area in Michigan, I saw STYX perform there song, "The Grand Illusion.' They sang of materialism that day, but the final two lyrics apply here somewhat as well. Possibly, I even had my Bic lighter shining away up in the air that night as they sang, 'Someday soon we'll stop to ponder what on Earth's this spell we're under--we made the grade and still we wonder who the hell we are." Yes, Celinda, even here--identity! And, from a communal standpoint, "Who is the Church?"

But, again, for here in this thread[!], and today, may God help us all to understand (and not forget), the words of the Abba above. Regardless of one's system (or the lack of it), all aspirations for Union with God, and Unity, void of the divine presence: "This is nothing but an illusion."

In Christ,
Rick

Experience/Encounter - 3
Neurotic Mysticism ----- 0

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

If we assume that the Light of Christ exists in all men, then the problem of the differing manifestations of that Light in the Dharmic cultures poses an interesting riddle. Socrates was given honorary 'Christian' status by Justin Martyr, I believe. Could such an action be done for the Buddha? (Well, we all know the story of Barlaam and Johasaphat.) And if so, how does one Christianly reinterpret Buddhist cosmology and soteriology? What such a project be worth the time and energy? What would be the benefit?

The Apologist Fathers, of which St Justin Martyr is one, gave a lot of thought to this question. They came up with a theological position and historical theory when it came to the culture they were part of.

First off I don't think St Justin would have said that the Light of Christ exists in all men. Rather He would have said that the logos as a seed of wisdom dwells in all men. This seed of the logos corresponds to Christ and leads men in potential towards Him. We must activate this seed in a very conscious way through the Church in order for this seed to bear life.

Basically what we see here is the first written evidence of how the Church was correlating its own theology to the unique cosmology of Hellenic-Roman philosophy. For all of the different ways in which it stated this the chief revelation of this cosmology was that the cosmos was composed of distinct members each with its distinct nature. The nature of each is defined by its distinct potential and fulfillment within the whole. The Apologists saw this understanding as a kind of revelation akin to that of God to Moses (keep in mind that God's revelation to Moses formed a people) for they understood the unique profundity of this vision in comparison to other cultures.

There is in this theory both a general statement about man and a specific statement about culture. All men by nature have this seed of the Logos planted in them. But as already stated this must be consciously cultivated within the Church in order for it to find its true fulfillment.

But secondly in a more specific way those Apologists like St Justin dealt very consciously with the question of how the culture they were part of related to the Church. Looking especially to the philosophical part of Roman-Hellenic culture the Apologists believed that there was a specific sense in which philosophy had been looking for Christ.

This wasn't a general statement about philosophy- it was a statement in regards to the Hellenic and Roman philosophy which marked the world the Apologists were part of. In other words if India had a philosophy (the Apologists were certainly aware of Indian schools of philosophy) then the question for the Apologists would have been: 'why then is India not Christian while the Hellenic-Roman world was rapidly becoming Christian?' For the Apologists there are no historical accidents but rather God's providence as working through real people.

Thus the Apologists believed that the world they were part of accepted the Church because it was specifically hungering for Christ. They set out to demonstrate how this was historically true & in their works the evidence can be read to this day.

In any case when it comes to the question: 'what about Buddhism?' etc the Fathers were very practical. If, as it turned out, some Indians did turn to the Church, this was because something within Indian culture actively sought fulfillment within the Church. The difference from the culture they were part of however (and the mystery is still there I think) and which they tried to engage in was why Hellenic-Roman culture turned to the Church in such an overwhelming way. Thus for the Apologists it was obvious that there was something very specific to the culture they were part of which drew it towards the Church.

Although this is now usually only thought about as an interesting question that relates to the past history of the Church I think there a real lesson is for all of us in terms of how culture relates to the Church.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Nina]

Dear Father Raphael,

Your Blessings.

Thank you for the beautiful post and all the insights!

May I add a thought to what you write also, please?

The Apologist Fathers wrote at a time when Christianity was still in its first steps; they did so to announce, explain and defend the new (true) faith that appeared with the Coming of Christ. Also, they explained through phenomena (pagan philosophy etc.) which had happened in the world before the coming of Christ.

Today, we live centuries after the Christ's First Coming. The Light was shown to the world and "he who has eyes, let him see".

[Nina]

Actually these precious words should have come before my previous post here:

"In Christianity truth is not a philosophical concept nor is it a theory, a teaching, or a system, but rather, it is the living theanthropic hypostasis - the historical Jesus Christ (John 14:6 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=John+14%3A6&x=16&y=11&NIV_version=yes&language=english)).

Before Christ men could only conjecture about the Truth since they did not possess it. With Christ as the incarnate divine Logos the eternally complete divine Truth enters into the world. For this reason the Gospel says: "Truth came by Jesus Christ" (John 1:17 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NIV&passage=John+1%3A7))."

St. Justin Popovich

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

The Apologist Fathers wrote at a time when Christianity was still in its first steps; they did so to announce, explain and defend the new (true) faith that appeared with the Coming of Christ. Also, they explained through phenomena (pagan philosophy etc.) which had happened in the world before the coming of Christ.

Today, we live centuries after the Christ's First Coming. The Light was shown to the world and "he who has eyes, let him see".


St Augustine- City of God
Book X Chapter 3.—That the Platonists, Though Knowing Something of the Creator of the Universe, Have Misunderstood the True Worship of God, by Giving Divine Honor to Angels, Good or Bad.

… if the Platonists, or those who think with them, knowing God, glorified Him as God and gave thanks, if they did not become vain in their own thoughts, if they did not originate or yield to the popular errors, they would certainly acknowledge that neither could the blessed immortals retain, nor we miserable mortals reach, a happy condition without worshipping the one God of gods, who is both theirs and ours. To Him we owe the service which is called in Greek λατρεία, whether we render it outwardly or inwardly; for we are all His temple, each of us severally and all of us together, because He condescends to inhabit each individually and the whole harmonious body, being no greater in all than in each, since He is neither expanded nor divided. Our heart when it rises to Him is His altar; the priest who intercedes for us is His Only-begotten; we sacrifice to Him bleeding victims when we contend for His truth even unto blood; to Him we offer the sweetest incense when we come before Him burning with holy and pious love; to Him we devote and surrender ourselves and His gifts in us; to Him, by solemn feasts and on appointed days, we consecrate the memory of His benefits, lest through the lapse of time ungrateful oblivion should steal upon us; to Him we offer on the altar of our heart the sacrifice of humility and praise, kindled by the fire of burning love. It is that we may see Him, so far as He can be seen; it is that we may cleave to Him, that we are cleansed from all stain of sins and evil passions, and are consecrated in His name. For He is the fountain of our happiness, He the end of all our desires. Being attached to Him, or rather let me say, re-attached,—for we had detached ourselves and lost hold of Him,—being, I say, re-attached to Him, we tend towards Him by love, that we may rest in Him, and find our blessedness by attaining that end. For our good, about which philosophers have so keenly contended, is nothing else than to be united to God. It is, if I may say so, by spiritually embracing Him that the intellectual soul is filled and impregnated with true virtues. We are enjoined to love this good with all our heart, with all our soul, with all our strength. To this good we ought to be led by those who love us, and to lead those we love. Thus are fulfilled those two commandments on which hang all the law and the prophets: “Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy mind, and with all thy soul;” and “Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.” For, that man might be intelligent in his self-love, there was appointed for him an end to which he might refer all his actions, that he might be blessed. For he who loves himself wishes nothing else than this. And the end set before him is “to draw near to God.” And so, when one who has this intelligent self-love is commanded to love his neighbor as himself, what else is enjoined than that he shall do all in his power to commend to him the love of God? This is the worship of God, this is true religion, this right piety, this the service due to God only.

[Rick H.]

"Universal Longings"


Dear Celinda,

Thanks very much for sharing your thoughts on "Deepest Longings"--yes I did enjoy it."

To a very high degree, I appreciate what you have shared about 'how' (In Christ) God meets our deepest desires that He has placed firmly in position--within us all--yes, a universal longing as you say.

Yes, In Christ!

And, there can be no substitute, can there?

And, as you write of:

Following Christ
Abiding in Christ
A Genuine Unity
Union with God

which is followed by your quoting of the Priestly Prayer, as you point to the House of the Lord as 'prepared' by the Lord Jesus Christ Himself!:



“The glory which You have given me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as we are one; I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them even as You have loved Me.”


We see the True vine and branch 'theory' written of by the Apostle of Love in John 15-17. Actually, this passage also speaks of something Fr. David wrote about once before, when he linked the words 'Love' and 'Commandment' (not unlike some would link Trust and Obey). But, I bring this up because when I read Fr. D's post that day, which was very good BTW, as he spoke of Love and The Church . . . I remember thinking that there was one word that was missing from my point of view. And, that was the word "Abide."

As, Christ has said, "Abide in Me."

And, I can feel a sermon coming on here, so I will try to cut this short now other than to point to the Book of John . . . starting actually in chap. 13 forward through the above referenced passage (chaps.15-17). More than a few years ago, while reading through this passage, I took notice of the way these three words were used repeatedly. But, even more so, the way they were held up to the light and turned around in different ways, so to say.

Abide--Commandments--Love

That day after seeing this in the Scriptures, I took out a pink, yellow, and blue hilighter. And, I ran back through these chapters. Every time I saw the word abide/abode, it became yellow. Each time I saw the word Command(s), it became blue, and Love was colored pink. And, this was very helpful to me. Possibly it would be for some others as well.

Thank you very much Celinda for sharing your thoughts here, especially:




"His love is so intimate that He whispers his Song of Songs in the deepest, most secret places of our hearts."



As it relates to some recent conversation here by me, I can only say thank you [again] for this present. How beautiful, His Song of Songs in the deepest most secret places of our hearts. Yes, the heart of salvation--the heart of the matter.

And, right here, you remind me that sometimes, just as people do not understand that the one who likes to fish or find sport in nature is often times the same one who loves nature very deeply, and wishes to abide in nature as often as possible . . . it is also often misunderstood that the one who utilizes an intellectual/academic theological approach is often the same one who loves mystical poetry very deeply, and to be more specific as our friend Oswald Chambers wrote in the last entry of his poetry journal, we too would prefer to abide in and 'live poetry rather than to write poetry.'

Thank you.

In Christ,
Rick

PS Thanks also Celinda for this: "Jesus baptizes with the Holy Spirit and his message is, 'The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand, repent and believe the good news!'” What is the Good News? What is the Kerygma of Christ! Yes, the Kingdom of God . . .

[Rick H.]

Kyriakos C. Markides, author of Mountain of Silence, interviewed on Ancientfaith Radio, "The Illumined Heart" podcasts of 3 and 10 June, 2007 (http://www.ancientfaithradio.com/podcasts/illuminedheart/).

Dear All,

I just listened to part I and part II of this interview with Markides and found that what is said here (mostly in the last 5 minutes of part I and most of part II) is not without relevance to our discussion here of the past two weeks, and the past two days [viz. Fr. R. and Jetavan].

As Markides speaks of "paths" and the "summit" as well as "the cosmic Christ living in the heart of every human being," which he terms "the light of Christ," he enters this conversation here in The Heart of Salvation!. However, without blindly bringing in quotes from this interview on Ancient Faith Radio, first, I have never heard of Markides and I am wondering if there are any here who could help me to know how he is viewed within Orthodoxy? I know from past experience that whether one agrees or disagrees with an Orthodox author will determine the label that one gives to him/her in terms of fringe/mainstream, or genius/wacko . . . But, I am wondering if someone could provide some feedback here on him please. Some of his answers that he gave were reminiscent of Bishop Ware's writing (possibly a little less ambiguous), but any help here would be appreciated.

In Christ,
Rick

[Herman Blaydoe]

Having read a couple of his books, I can certainly appreciate his insight at times, but I personally view him as somewhat "problematic". I find him more Unitarian than Orthodox. He seems more of a "spiritualist" than theologian, with some decidedly unOrthodox views. While I like what he quotes "Father Maximos" as saying in these books, I am not as sure about Dr. Markides interpretations and extrapolations of what has been said. His former dabbling in Transcendental Meditation and the drug-inspired writings of Carlos Castaneda sometimes show through.

In his no doubt sincere desire to return to his Orthodox roots, I think he still has a way to go, but that might just be me. I can certainly understand why Fr. Maximos might have been exasperated with him at times and I find his patience very commendable. As a vehicle for the wisdom of Fr. Maximos, Dr. Markides books are well worth the read, just be sure to pay more attention to the good father than to the author.

Nonetheless, there are many in the Orthodox Church who have a much higher regard for his views than I do. YMMV.

[Rick H.]

A Balanced Approach: (Augustine and Pelagius?)

Dear Herman, and All:

Thanks very much for the 'well-balanced' and helpful info on the author (good job!). I sense that you have provided a reliable snapshot here, one that is both informed and representative of the majority view.

And, with that said (as well as knowing the Orthodox Cyber Police [OCP] seem to be a little 'trigger happy' lately), I think I will hold off on bringing in Dr. Markides many varied and controversial comments at the present--that is unless Father Raphael and Dr. Jetavan still have an appetite for continuing with their most enlightening dialogue (which I hope that they do!).

Honestly, in light of the interview with Markides that was broadcast on AncientFaithRadio.com, as it relates directly to the conversation of Father Raphael and Jetavan, I would like to understand more about the suggestion that was offered here, and there, whereby " . . . the light of Christ exists in all men." ,

Especially as Father Raphael moves our attention to "seeds" in the following:




First off I don't think St Justin would have said that the Light of Christ exists in all men. Rather He would have said that the logos as a seed of wisdom dwells in all men. This seed of the logos corresponds to Christ and leads men in potential towards Him. We must activate this seed in a very conscious way through the Church in order for this seed to bear life.



but; even more so as Fr. R. points to the activation/germination of the seed.

I wonder how many people read right over the last line in the above quote? Speaking of Augustine (and Pelagius), and Who or who is the causality of the germination of this "seed," which "corresponds to Christ," I am not sure it is entirely clear what is being said about the logos in seed (or seminal?) form. Possibly, as a stand alone sentence, this last sentence, "We must activate this seed . . ." assumes a greater understanding on the part of the reader?

But, from here, my attention turns to a, long held position as it relates to light and darkness, which can be represented by my 'aversion' to the Taoist Yin/Yang doctrine. In the past, while I can see the logic and the reason of much of a Yin/Yang type of thinking, as well as a degree of truth, I have, in the end, always been forced to reject it outright, for a couple of reasons. As I do today. Because, for one 'as I have been taught,' based on an historic Orthodox Christian approach, there can be no mixing of light and darkness in this way--as it relates to the Spirit of Wisdom or the the Spirit of the Logos, regardless of 'form' (regardless of whether a seed is dormant or has been geminated).

And, I think it is assumed by most, that all seed, that is sown by the Spirit of Wisdom, is 'viable' (as we see in the parables of our Lord), so that is not the question. However, and in an attempt to wrap this one up, let me try to get back to the point here . . . If we say that there is a viable "seed of the logos which corresponds to Christ" in all men, then are we saying there is a little light to be found within the otherwise darkness of fallen man?

And, keeping in mind we are speaking about the Light of Life here, and we are speaking of seed that is viable and full of life, why would it be incorrect to say as has been said by Markides and others that the Light of Life, or the Light of Christ is contained in all men?

If we would say the seed is "bad seed," that it is "not viable," then although we have really said nothing[!] (that is not said by the hyper-Augustinian), then, here in this case, we could say the Light of Christ does *not* exist in all (or any) men.

But, that is not what we are saying here.

Here, I think, we are all saying that the seed *is* "good seed," that it *is* "viable" and it *does* contain Life.

And, I think, we are all saying that this same seed *is* in all men. Aren't we?

In Christ,
Rick

[Kornelius]

For those of you who are trying to find Christ after His Glorious Incarnation, Death, and Resurrection - outside Christianity - I would like to remind you of St. John Chrysostom Paschal Homily, that the bird [Christ] already flew away from the nest. Therefore there is no need to stare at the nest, for Christ is no more there. This nest is allegorical to Judaism, however, it is allegorical also of all previous religions and philosophies. Christ's Resurrection brings an end to them all. But how do we interpret the wisdom of Greek philosophers?

All creation belongs to Christ both after and prior to the event of Incarnation. Therefore, Christ Who sustains the universe, out of His divine generosity would graciously bestow upon His creation the scattered seeds of Truth, what we call Logos spermatikos even prior to His arrival. This is what the greek philosophers had in them and what was praised by the saints. However, after the Incarnation we received the fullness of Truth, we received Christ the One Who is Truth. In our era it would be an oxymoron to search for Christ in the scattered seeds of truth when one may find Christ, the fullness of His revelation and His manifestation of Truth within the Orthodox Church.

For those of you who still prefer to focus upon Logos spermatikos, I would like to emphasize that the Eastern religions are essentially incompatible with Orthodoxy and we must stay away from them. Most of them have no theological basis. Instead they are purely pragmatic, based on experience. If one would summarize the essence of Zen and Hinduism in one dictum, it would be: "If it works then it must be good." This is the entire philosophical system of Eastern religions, a system that does not require faith, neither mysteries, but simply the guru telling the disciple to try a mantra. If it works, and it feels good, fine. If it doesn't then try another one. It's a pragmatic fallacy and since our current world is fostered primarily by pragmatic impulses, these philosophies become very desirable.

The other aspect why these religions are extremely dangerous to our faith has to do with their "spiritual experiences" that do not require the presence or existence of God. In fact one becomes "god" without God. This cultivates upon the practicioner arrogance and hubris which are characteristics of demons. For the Hindu in general, and the Advaitan or Vedantan in particular, the only "sin" is not to believe in yourself and in Humanity as God Himself. This is nothing but Luciferian Pride. If you are still not convinced let me quote the words of Swami Vivekananda, the modern advocate of Vedanta: "You do not yet understand India! We Indians are Man-worshipers after all. Our God is Man."

These religions are not equal to Christianity. It is a war on christian dogma. For them All is One and everything is relative. I have said before and I am repeating it once again. Relativism, - the idea that truth is partially found everywhere - is a predecessor of pan-theism, which is a predecessor of atheism.

Therefore, spare us, from the "illumination" of Eastern religions!

[Rick H.]

Dear All,

While we wait to hear from possibly Fr. R, or Jetavan, or another in our present discussion. I would like to submit a piece from Peter Farrington here. This is a contribution of his from the American Orthodoxy thread.




In all times and places and circumstances, love casts out fear.

There is no fear in love. Love of God, love of one another and love of those outside the church. If we have love we will act aright.

Love preserves and transmits and enculturates the Tradition without corruption.

Where there is fear Tradition is diminished.



In Christ,
Rick

[Nina]

Dear Kornelius,

Thank you for your post which is very much aligned with the one from Father Raphael and the teachings of the Orthodox Saints and Fathers.

I can not believe the knowledge you are sharing here with us and I very much appreciate it.

Thank you for sharing what you know about Truth because with (at the moment) 1,274 members (not to mention unsubscribed guests) here in an Orthodox forum, we need to learn more about Orthodoxy. There is always space for comparative theology, which you are doing successfully and in an admirable academic way in your last post and give honor to your name and your faith, Orthodox Christian.

I encountered monachos while googling about matters related to my faith, Orthodoxy. Monachos came as a suggestion and a first choice in google 100% of the time during my searches. Knowing this impact, we who take the eternal spiritual risk, or blessing to post here must be careful not to mislead those who seek Orthodoxy. Others who may seek different theories and gatherings, are free to explore pertaining sites.

Please keep posting here for all of us that need to know more. Do not take away this right of ours.

[Rick H.]

Anxiety as a Teacher?

Dear Learner,

Thank you very much for the question(s) that you have asked today in your posts. I too am left with the same question that you are. Hopefully, we will receive some light on this today in a way that addresses the question. And, then possibly from there to a personal spiritual practice ;) :)

Thank you for your questions Learner. As John has said in the past, sometimes the question is more important than the answer. Sometimes even the most simple of questions can make us more 'learned' and wiser than we were before, and in this case as I have read recently, even the dreaded "anxiety" can become our teacher as we even attempt to answer them at times for ourselves. Yes, possibly Romans 8:28 once again! Or, possibly even St. Basil?





. . . when a wise man asks questions, he makes even a fool wise. And this, thank God, is my case, as often as I receive a letter from your industrious self. For we become more learned and wiser than we were before, merely by asking questions, because we are taught many things which we did not know; and our anxiety to answer them acts as a teacher to us. Assuredly at the present time, though I have never before paid attention to the points you raise, I have been forced to make accurate enquiry . . .

--St. Basil



In Christ,
Rick