'The Kingdom of God' as a 'common ground'?

[Rick H.]

Dear All,

In an historic Eastern Orthodox understanding, is "the Kingdom of God" recognized as a Common Ground? If so, assuming the Kingdom of God is not perceived to be an E.O. Kingdom exclusively--what part do Hebraic expressions play in the defining and habitation (or better yet the tenability) of this Common Ground?

I think I can see that the majority here would proclaim that the E.O. Church does not provide a Common Ground for all who would look to Christ as their Lord and savior; but this is *not the question* here. There is another thread for those interested in considering the boundaries and limits of the New Testament Eastern Orthodox Church, just as there is another for those interested in considering the mindset behind such things (as well as the mind set on such things).

Since I have been with this community, I have seen movement on the periphery as it relates to the Kerygma of Christ which is "the Kingdom of God." And, I don't think any would try to say there is anything in the way of a consensus that the Church of the seven councils is the Kingdom of God (or try to define/limit the boundaries of the Kingdom of God to the E.O. Church).

However, in all discussions, especially as it relates to the eucharist and the boundaries of the church(es) there is no movement to the heart of the matter as it relates to the kerygma of Christ.

In all discussions here, at monachos, for that matter, as it relates to the proclamation of the Proclaimer, from my reading there is 0/zero discussion of His proclamation--the Kingdom of God.

Why is this?

I have asked before in another thread who the Hebrew scholars are in Orthodoxy. And, there has been no answer. Possibly this is a factor. As of this point, I am forced to think that there are no Hebrew studies scholars to be found within Eastern Orthodoxy.

But, I must confess that it appears to me after reading some very recent posts (as well as in the archives), that in Eastern Orthodoxy it is believed that the Kerygma of Christ *is* the Church!/?

Is this possible that this is the majority view in Eastern Orthodoxy?

Is it possible that there has been a substitution of the New Testament 'Ekklesia' for the 'Basileia tou Theou?'

Again, in this, there seems to be a turning from the Hebraic aspects of both the Hebrew Messiah and the proclamation of His Kingdom. And, I have to wonder if this is a conscious and willful thing, or a subconscious and ignorant thing.


In Christ,
Rick

[M.C. Steenberg]

Dear Rick, you wrote:


In an historic Eastern Orthodox understanding, is "the Kingdom of God" recognized as a Common Ground?

I am not certain I understand what you mean by 'common ground'. Common ground of / for what?

As an aside, in traditional Orthodox liturgical theology, the Kingdom of God is the salvific reign of Christ perfected in the transfigured image of God (i.e. man). Hence the thief's request that Christ remember him when he comes in his Kingdom; and hence, too, the upset good Orthodox liturgical translators feel when that refrain, used with the beatitudes as the third 'antiphon' of the Divine Liturgy, is translated 'when Thou comest into Thy Kingdom'.

INXC, Matthew

[Paul Cowan]

Dear Rick,


'Ekklesia' for the 'Basileia tou Theou?'

Please translate for those of us who are unable to. Even though those of us who are unable to probably have no business contributing to nor the theological background to offer support to the topic.It does help us attempt at least to keep up with the discussion. Thanks.

Paul

[Rick H.]

Dear Matthew:

When you write:




I am not certain I understand what you mean by 'common ground'. Common ground of / for what?

As an aside, in traditional Orthodox liturgical theology, the Kingdom of God is the salvific reign of Christ perfected in the transfigured image of God (i.e. man). Hence the thief's request that Christ remember him when he comes in his Kingdom; and hence, too, the upset good Orthodox liturgical translators feel when that refrain, used with the beatitudes as the third 'antiphon' of the Divine Liturgy, is translated 'when Thou comest into Thy Kingdom'.

INXC, Matthew




I think it is possible to find an answer of sorts in the following quote by you again, today, from the Church: Limits and Boundaries thread when you said:




But this eucharist is the mystical relation of man and God in this body of belief and practice - not simply a general confession of common ground with all those who look to Christ.




however; possibly as you have used the term 'common ground' as a negation somewhat . . . I would be more inclined to use it as an affirmation. I would view the Kingdom of God as a common ground for *all* those who have been--and will be--brought into a mystical relation with God through the divine intervention of God, via. the domain/rule of His Spirit, the Spirit of Life. And, I appreciate what you have shared about traditional liturgical theology because, yes, at the "heart" of the kerygma of Christ, which is the Kingdom of God, a 'common ground' begins to come into view and *is* based on the reality of God's saving action.

In Christ,
Rick

PS Dear Paul--I just noticed your post (good to hear from you by the way), possibly most simply "Church" and "Kingdom/Domain/Rule of God."

[Marie-Duquette]

Dear Rick, you wrote:



I am not certain I understand what you mean by 'common ground'. Common ground of / for what?

As an aside, in traditional Orthodox liturgical theology, the Kingdom of God is the salvific reign of Christ perfected in the transfigured image of God (i.e. man). Hence the thief's request that Christ remember him when he comes in his Kingdom; and hence, too, the upset good Orthodox liturgical translators feel when that refrain, used with the beatitudes as the third 'antiphon' of the Divine Liturgy, is translated 'when Thou comest into Thy Kingdom'.

INXC, Matthew

Dear Matthew,

Peace of Christ! This new thread is very appealing to me! Perhaps a better and deeper understanding of the "Kingdom of God" as a Common Ground for all of Creation will come about! who knows?

You refer to the "thief" as pleading to Christ Jesus from his cross "Remember me when you come into your Kingdom"

At the beginning of the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom the Priest intones "Blessed is the Kingdom of the Father, of the Son of the Holy Spirit! the reign of God-Trinity is PRESENT in each "iota" of the movement of the Divine Liturgy being celebrated, from beginning to end!

I am always amazed at how the WORD Kindgom is used in the Divine Liturgy, expressing itself through other related, meaningful words ... perhaps as each person becomes more attentive during the various movements of the DL more Light will radiate from the Throne of God: "Blessed are you on the throne of glory of your kingdom, seated upon the cherubim, at all times, now and always and for ever and ever. Amen"

"at the Epiclesis ... "Changing them by your Holy Spirit. so that, to those who partake of them, they may be for the cleansing of the soul, for the remision of sins, for the fellowship of your Holy Spirit, for the fullness of the kingdom of heaven, ...

at the Our Father ... "thy Kingdom come for Thine is the Kingdom, the power and the glory of the Father, and the Son and the Holy Spirit, now and always and for ever and ever."

"Lord Jesus Christ our God, give heed from your holy dwelling place and from the throne of glory of your kingdom come to make us Holy.

At Communion time "Receive me now, O Son of God, as a participant in your mystical supper ..... remember me, Lord, in your kingdom.


At the Divine Liturgy it seems to me that the Kingdom of God in its fullness, as Ecclesia and is made manifest, as a whole and in particular for each participant of these Sacred Mysteries; little by little in a perpetual movement, from infancy, throughout our entire life span each person, and the whole Ecclesia is immersed into the Kingdom of the Father, of the Son of the Holy Spirit; and become Kingdom of God here and now!

It is a Holy Mystery which can not be fully understood by the human mind and heart; but must be lived each day in the Spirit of Faith, Hope and Love as expressed in the following:

"Amen. Let our mouth be filled with your praise, O Lord, for you have counted us worthy to share your Holy, immortal and spotless mysteries; keep us in your holiness that we may sing your glory, meditating on your holiness all the day. Alleluia!"

"We thank you Master who love mankind, Benefactor of our souls, for having today made us worthy of your heavenly and immortal mysteries. Make straight our paths, establish us in your fear, guard our life, steady our footsteps;, through the prayers and supplications of the Mother of God and all your Saints. For You are our sanctification, and we send up glory to You, to the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, now and always and for ever and ever. Amen."

"Christ Our God you are the fullfillment of the law and the prophets, fullfilling the whole providential plan of the Father, ... "

Through attentively participating in the Holy, Divine Liturgy the Fullness of the Kingdom is Present! and, little by little each person learns to express this reality in his/her life, day by day. In a way of understanding "It is all God's doing" with my humble loving participation.

I may not understand the Divine Liturgy academically,or be able to explain It in a scholarly manner, but as I participate in and live this mystery in my personal life, being led by the indwelling Trinity, my life becomes transformed, or deified from Glory to Glory, to the Glory of God! I believe that as this happens in the individual it becomes more and more manifest in the Ecclesia; while the Ecclesia is in herself already the fullness, the fullness is not fully manifest exteriorly in this world. ... it is up to you and me as we learn to "Follow Christ Jesus" each day, listening to the WORD of God, allowing IT to change me, as I surrender to ITS guidance.

Lord have mercy!

marie_duquette

p.s. Perhaps I have not touched the meaning of "Common Ground" but, at the "ground of my being" something is being seeded, planted, cultivated by the Grace of the Holy Spirit. This I believe!

[Adrian Matthews]

Just a couple of thoughts which occur here.

As I understand it, the basileia tou theou...the Kingdom of God..can also be understood to mean the Rule of God the Blessed and Most Holy Trinity within the hearts and lives of those who are united to God in Christ.

In the Lords Prayer we hear Our Lord teaching us to pray "Thy Kingdom come." linked in to "Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven."

There is, I believe, an unstated imperative for us that as we pray in this way...we should mean inwardly for the Kingdom of God and His will...to arrive... or more properly be formed... within us...and that we should be surrendering to the Kingship of Christ within if we are to pray this prayer with any authentic meaning into the world which He made.

It begins in us...in our hearts...as we experience and continually surrender to the mutual indwelling of the Holy Trinity within.

Our Lord said also that the Kingdom of God is within us...and amongst us.

Within and amongst...an individual encounter lived out in community.

I am not qualified to comment on the nature of that community...I understand that the view of that community of faith, grace, Love and the Spirit...the Koinonia...is perceived differently by people of differing theological viewpoints...especially when we are thinking of what it means to be a Eucharistic Community of grace, love, prayer, worship and mission...

For myself...I see people who are deeply committed to Christ...to the extent of sacrificial discipleship...in churches that are not of the Orthodox fold as well as within.

And for me the common ground which has drawn me ever closer to Orthodoxy...is the clear and mutual perception of continual metanoya (repentance) and inner surrender to God in a life of inward prayer...as being the key which brings about the gradual transformation and growth in grace of true discipleship. Inner surrender to His gentle and Kingly Rule... the Rule of the Kingdom within us and the formation of Christ within us (Us being conformed by the Holy Spirit to His Divine Image)...expressed in and through the Community of Grace which faces outward...with His Love... as the house of healing for a sin sick world.

Blessings,

Fr Adrian (Anglican).

[M.C. Steenberg]

Dear all,

With thanks to many for the recent posts, in what might well pan out to be an interesting thread. But I will confess to, at this stage, still feeling the underlying question has yet to find any solid clarity. Statements such as:


"understanding of the "Kingdom of God" as a Common Ground for all of Creation"and


"I would view the Kingdom of God as a common ground for *all* those who have been--and will be--brought into a mystical relation with God"...seem to me to be struggling to articulate something concrete, without having yet found it. 'A common ground for all of creation' is a statement that doesn't really mean anything. Are we speaking of a common ground of eschatological hope for all creation? A common ground of interpretive understanding for all creation? Without some focus to this 'common ground', it doesn't seem (to me) to delineate anything in particular. Similarly a 'common ground for all those who will be brought into mystical relation with God'. Again, a common ground of/for what? A common ground of expectation for those who will be in relation? A common ground of experience for those in such relation?

I'm curious to know the actual substance of the curiosity. :)

INXC, Matthew

[M.C. Steenberg]

Dear all,

Whilst I am still far from certain as to what 'a common ground' is meant to indicate in the previous posts, I thought the following on the Kingdom of God in its own right might be of interest -- from Fr Thomas Hopko's volume, The Orthodox Faith:


... And of his kingdom there will be no end ...

Jesus is the royal Son of David, of whom it was prophesied by the angel at his birth:
He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord will give to him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever; and of his kingdom there will be no end (Lk 1:32-33).Through his sufferings as the Christ, Jesus achieved everlasting kingship and lordship over all creation. He has become "King of kings and Lord of lords," sharing this title with God the Father Himself (Deut 10:17; Dan 2:47; Rev 19:16). As a man, Jesus Christ is King of the Kingdom of God.

Christ came for no other reason than to bring God's kingdom to men. His very first public words are exactly those of his forerunner, John the Baptist: "Repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand" (Mt 3:2, 4:17).

All through his life Jesus spoke of the kingdom. In the sermons such as the Sermon on the Mount and the many parables, he told of the everlasting kingdom.
Blessed are the poor in spirit for theirs is the kingdom of heaven ...

Blessed are they who are persecuted for righteousness sake for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

He who does these commandments and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

But seek ye first the kingdom of heaven and its righteousness, and all things will be yours as well.

Not everyone who says to me, "Lord, Lord," shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven (Mt 5-7).The mustard seed, the leaven, the pearl of great price, the lost coin, the treasure in the field, the fishing net, the wedding feast, the banquet, the house of the Father, the vineyard ... all are signs of the kingdom which Jesus has come to bring. And on the night of His last supper with the disciples He tells the apostles openly:
You are those who have continued with me in my trials; as my Father appointed a kingdom for me, so do I appoint for you that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel (Lk 22: 28-30; Reading of the Vigil of Holy Thursday).Christ's kingdom is "not of this world" (Jn 18:31). He says this to Pontius Pilate when being mocked as king, revealing in this humiliation His genuine divine kingship. The Kingdom of God, which Christ will rule, will come with power at the end of time when the Lord will fill all creation and will be truly "all, and in all" (Col 3:11). The Church, which in popular Orthodox doctrine is called the Kingdom of God on earth, has already mysteriously been given this experience. In the Church, Christ is already acknowledged, glorified, and served, as the only king and lord; and His Holy Spirit, whom the saints of the Church have identified with the Kingdom of God, is already given to the world in the Church with full graciousness and power.

The Kingdom of God, therefore, is a Divine Reality. It is the reality of God's presence among men through Christ and the Holy Spirit. "For the Kingdom of God ... means ... peace and joy and righteousness in the Holy Spirit" (Rom 14:17). The Kingdom of God as a spiritual, divine reality is given to men by Christ in the Church. It is celebrated and participated in the sacramental mysteries of the faith. It is witnessed to in the scriptures, the councils, the canons, and the saints. It will become the universal, final cosmic reality for the whole of creation at the end of the ages when Christ comes in glory to fill all things with Himself by the Holy Spirit, that God might be "all and in all" (1 Cor 15:28).

[M.C. Steenberg]

A few other resources might be of interest to people. Firstly, from the on-line 'questions and answers' at the Orthodox Church in America's site, by Fr John Matusiak:


QUESTION:

You talk about the Kingdom of God continually. What is this Kingdom of God?

ANSWER:

The Kingdom of God is what Christ has brought to the world. The Gospel is full of Christ's insistence that the Kingdom of God is given to men by His coming. It is a Kingdom not of this world, but of God, a Kingdom of everlasting life in union with God, the Trinity.

Thus, we define the Kingdom of God as life in and with God. The Orthodox believe that this life is communicated to men in the Church through Christ and the Holy Spirit. It is a life where men worship and obey God and do His will by the presence and power of His spirit.

One saint has even defined the Kingdom of God as life in the Holy Spirit, which is the same definition given by Orthodox to the Christian Church itself.

What we know in the Church, in the Holy Spirit, of communion with God the Father through Jesus Christ, remains still a mystery. The Kingdom is really here, but in symbol and sacrament. At the end of the ages this Kingdom will come with observation, with power and glory, when Christ will be revealed and God will be "all in all."

Thus because we Orthodox believe that the Kingdom is already given to those who believe, and that the righteous dead have even a greater access to this Kingdom than we have on earth because of our mixture with the evil of this age, we insist that "heaven" is not a locatable place within the space of our created universe, but a spiritual, divine, condition of existence which will fill the universe at the end of time. It is "eternal life" already revealed to the saints in death and to the holy people of God within the sacramental life of the Christian Church.A seminal text of interest would be St Innocent of Alaska's The Way Into the Kingdom of Heaven (http://www.monachos.net/library/Innocent_of_Alaska%2C_The_Way_Into_the_Kingdom_of_ Heaven), found here in the Monachos Library.

There is also an interesting article on liturgical theology of the Kingdom at Liturgica.com (http://www.liturgica.com/html/litEChLitHW.jsp?hostname=).

[Rick H.]

I'm curious to know the actual substance of the curiosity. :)

INXC, Matthew


Dear Matthew,

It will be my personal joy for you to "know" the actual substance! http://cdn-cf.aol.com/se/smi/0201d201a5/01 And, it is my prayer that as you have blessed us here in this community, you will be blessed.

But, for now, there is a holiday beginning here in the US, that I must attend to, and that will pass unmentioned for my new friends in the UK. http://cdn-cf.aol.com/se/smi/0201d201a5/02

In Christ,
Rick

[Rick H.]

On Independence Day

Dear All,

Thank you very much for bringing us to this place where we are at today. I think we have come a long way in a short time. But, the reason I am writing today is to share a few thoughts with you.

As some of you know this is the first on-line discussion group that I have attempted to participate in. And, this has been a true learning experience for me in many ways. But, to the point, someone has mentioned to me lately about the difference between an 'urging things along' and 'allowing for periods of silence.' In a classroom where there is anywhere from a 45 minute period to a 3 hour class session it is necessary to attempt to create a certain dynamic in the learning community. In this case periods of silence are the opposite of what is desired. In this case, silence is a lose-lose, all loose (eventually even the teacher--his job!).

But, after considering the words of someone whom I respect about the difference between a classroom and an on-line chat room, I have come to a new conclusion which takes into account, and allows more room for thought on the 'type' and 'quality' of replies to a given thread. Especially, in one such as we find ourselves participating in here at the present, I think we all would rather not have to deal with reactionary replies. However, when it comes right down to it, what is really the difference, at times, between a reactionary reply and an impulsive reply. And, this is a very subtle difference that is being indicated here, but even more to the point, I think we can all agree that what is desired here is a constructive contribution--one that produces growth and development of a thread (as opposed to a retarding/hindering of the process).

So, possibly because of my high level of interest in the topic of this thread, and my desire for the Real Thing here, I would just like to share the fact that I will not be driving this 'conversation' along like I have some of the others that I have initiated. In my mind this one will be Spirit-driven, or not at all. And, with this in mind, we can see, as my friend shared with me that often times, periods of quiet are healthy and good in "genuine" discussions on-line.

However, this is not a 100% rule here is it? Because, in the AO and the HOS thread for example, there are perfect illustrations of a Common Ground to be found there . . . even though these significations, themselves, demonstrate that a Common Ground consists of unwritten and unspoken precepts much more than it does a written and spoken language. So whether written or unwritten, whether formative or impulsive, whether Mary or Martha, Luke or Paul, etc., the point I am trying to make here is:

For the here and now, I am going to adopt a different method in this thread that is a more 'hands-off' method, one that does not actively solicit responses, whereby a person may be more inclined to reply when they have something constructive to say rather than on impulse. There is no race to the finish line on this one. This one is too important.

Look at what we have here so far, the beautiful Spirit of Marie putting on display a picture perfect view of a Common Ground in her post; Fr. Adrian following suit; and Matthew and Paul setting the bar for an honest, sincere, and open/friendly conversation.

So possibly, all things considered, it is more than obvious why I feel compelled to downshift here as we continue to consider the Kingdom of God, the Kingdom of Heaven, and a Common Ground.

There is suffering; but may Love abide.

Your fellow 'learner' In Christ,
Rick

[John Charmley]

Dear Rick,

Not another holiday! What's this one about I wonder?:)

Perhaps Independence Day is a good day to ask the question what is it we wish to independent from? It is certainly a good time to provide the message you have given us in the last posting.

There is much common ground - depending, as Matthew hints, on the meaning one attaches to the 'the Kingdom of God'. As Christians we all have the hope that we will be part of that; but we also know that only the Triune God will make that decision.

The common ground provided here at Monachos is a good place to explore our understanding of Orthodoxy and the Fathers. We tend to forget how difficult it was, in the early Church and even more recently, for Christians to have access to the Fathers, and to a knowledge of the patristic heritage. Whatever the evils of our age, we are blessed in having such easy access to such a wide range of patristic sources.

In Christ,

John

[Tim Grass]

..... so apparently neither Rick or John is going to answer the question of what "a common ground" is supposed to mean?...........

--tim

[John]

Hello everyone,

Matthew S. wrote:
But I will confess to, at this stage, still feeling the underlying question has yet to find any solid clarity.

'A common ground for all of creation' is a statement that doesn't really mean anything.

I have to agree with this! I've been looking interestedly at all your posts, but I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say!

Yours,
John

[Rick H.]

..... so apparently neither Rick or John is going to answer the question of what "a common ground" is supposed to mean?...........

--tim


Dear Tim, Dear John W.,

Tim--I am sorry that we are not moving quickly enough here for you in this thread. Although, with great speed your 'conrtibution' clearly illustrates a problematic methodology that we do face from time to time, it is not as easy of a task to consider the Kingdom of Heaven via a positive and constructive approach. Possibly, with your continued input/writing we can consider not only what a common ground is, but what a common ground is not. But, then again, this thread, like others, may not be for everyone.

John--I hear the sincerity in your post. And, I know for a fact, based on PM's that I receive from other community members, that there are others here who could help us more than I ever could. These folks almost never contribute to the threads, but God willing, a suitable climate will present itself for some of these dear brothers and sisters of whom I speak to bless us with even just a taste of their first hand knowledge of the Kingdom of Heaven. But, as I said above, I will not attempt to solicit (or provoke) a response here in this thread.

In Christ,
Rick

[John Charmley]

Dear Tim,

You write:

..... so apparently neither Rick or John is going to answer the question of what "a common ground" is supposed to mean?...........

--tim
hey, steady, Tiger! I had rather thought Matthew's postings deserving of pondering, so hesitated to respond in what might have seemed an untimely fashion. He certainly helps us along our way here, as do your own questions.

If we examine Our Lord's teachings on this (never a bad place to start) we read:

Mat 13:24-30 Another parable He put forth to them, saying: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field; {25} ”but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way. {26} “But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared. {27} ”So the servants of the owner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’ {28} “He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ The servants said to him, ‘Do you want us then to go and gather them up?’ {29} ”But he said, ‘No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them. {30} ‘Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.”

Mat 13:47-50 “Again , the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet that was cast into the sea and gathered some of every kind, {48} ”which , when it was full, they drew to shore; and they sat down and gathered the good into vessels, but threw the bad away. {49} “So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just, {50} ”and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth."

What 'common ground' is there here, one might ask?

Christ's kingship is His rule over His people; it is established in their hearts and minds; its spiritual end is the salvation of sinners and life eternal; it is administered spiritually and sacramentally, and exercised in the gathering and governance of the Church. We can read it as meaning that only those believers who are members of the invisible Church are subjects of that kingdom, but it has been used more loosely to include all those who strive to lead a life of repentance and purity, under the proclamation of the gospel; in short all who have a place in the 'visible Church'.

It is perhaps this looser and broader use which raises the question of a 'common ground'?

Just a thought.

In Christ.

John

[M.C. Steenberg]

Dear all,

To my mind, the question of what is meant by 'the Kingdom of God' cannot really be discussed fruitfully in this context until some clarity is given to the amorphous phrase 'a common ground'. Having read back over this thread this afternoon, including some of its most recent posts, I still confess to not really having any idea at all what is meant by it in this conversation. My thoughts are still summed up in my earlier set of questions (http://www.monachos.net/forum/showpost.php?p=47354&postcount=7):
'A common ground for all of creation' is a statement that doesn't really mean anything. Are we speaking of a common ground of eschatological hope for all creation? A common ground of interpretive understanding for all creation? Without some focus to this 'common ground', it doesn't seem (to me) to delineate anything in particular. Similarly a 'common ground for all those who will be brought into mystical relation with God'. Again, a common ground of/for what? A common ground of expectation for those who will be in relation? A common ground of experience for those in such relation?
Without some sense of clarity as to what individuals mean when they put forward this phrase in this context, it's not really possible to assess whether or not 'The Kingdom of God' holds potential as 'a common ground'. Are you asking about the potential of finding a common ground for ecumenical dialogue? A common ground of Christian expectation? A common ground of practice in some sense? Alone, it isn't a concept that has independent meaning so far as I can see.

So, to those initiating this thread, my question - in all earnestness - remains: a 'common ground' for what?

INXC, Matthew

[John Charmley]

Dear Matthew,

I hope my previous post may have been of some utility in helping clarify one possible meaning.

I am much in your debt for the Innocent of Alaska reference; most illuminating and edifying.

In Christ,

John

[Celinda Grace]

we should mean inwardly for the Kingdom of God and His will...to arrive... or more properly be formed... within us...

the Kingdom of God is the salvific reign of Christ perfected in the transfigured image of God.

Rick and John,

I wonder if you are not going about this whole common ground thing backwards. Let me give an analogy.

In Peru (I think) there are very large pictures dug into the ground and the only way one can see what these are is to look at them from an airplane or from the top of a distant hill. If one is standing on the picture itself all you see are a bunch of lines.

Now consider. Each of us is standing on a different part of the picture trying to figure out how our part corresponds with someone else's by walking around on the ground. The solution to finding a common view is not to stay on the ground but to climb a nearby hill. If we would truly see the whole picture of the common ground of our faith we must go further up and further in. We cannot figure it out from where we are.

Since we stand in different places of knowing, I do not think we can come to a common ground of knowledge until the reign of Christ is perfected. However, in my reading of Church history, despite differences in practice and knowledge, I have found a common ground in the disposition of the heart.


"Blessed is he who knows in truth that we are but tools in God's hands; that it is God who effects within us all ascetic practice and contemplation, virtue and spiritual knowledge, victory and wisdom, goodness and truth; and that to all this we contribute nothing at all except a disposition that desires what is good."

It is the common ground of the struggle to climb higher. We can find a common ground in our wholehearted pursuit of Truth and Love. We can find a common ground in cooperating with God as He strives to bring in His Kingdom within us. Let the Church guard the manifestation of Truth. Let each of us guard a disposition that will stop at nothing less then a wholehearted pursuit of that Truth. Let us guard a disposition that crucifies the word 'my' -my rights, my time, my energy, my money, my practice, my knowledge and replaces it with 'His'.

When the Kingdom is made alive in us, then we will see the common ground from which we came.

[Rick H.]

Dear Celinda, Dear Matthew, Dear All,

Celinda--Thanks so much for this gift that you have provided to all of us. After reading your post, I think that I must allow much room for your suggestion that I have been putting the cart before the horse in many ways here. And, I want to work with this the best I can at the present, but first I have some old business to clear up.

Matthew--When you wrote:




So, to those initiating this thread, my question - in all earnestness - remains: a 'common ground' for what?



I read this and thought that this is more than fair, especially after reading your six most helpful questions that I have distilled from your recent posts. As I perceive the Kingdom of God to be a common ground, and an Inner Kingdom, in the already (and the not yet), I'm not sure I can tackle the question 'for what?' but, I will try to answer your other questions in the following as directly as possible:

1.) Are we speaking of a common ground of eschatological hope for all creation?

No, this is not necessary, but I do subscribe to a theology of hope.

2.) A common ground of interpretive understanding for all creation?

Here again no, unless you take out the word "all," then the answer would be yes I think.

3.) A common ground of expectation for those who will be in relation?

No, as in #1.

4.) A common ground of experience for those in such relation?

Yes, this is most definitely involved I think (especially as Celinda has used the word disposition).

5.) Are you asking about the potential of finding a common ground for ecumenical dialogue?

No, definitely not--thanks but no thanks. A genuine unity/union, but no ecumenism in terms of a comparative ecclesiology.

6.) A common ground of practice in some sense?

Yes, as with question #4

But, back to your initial comment in the above quote "for what?" and in other posts where you try to see what the potential for such a thing would be, whereby the practicality of the Inner Kingdom which brings one onto this plane is as varied in its individual applications as are the individual circumstances one finds oneself living in, more importantly a narrow fissure lies in the use of the word "potential" I think. Because for those who find themselves on this ground, the word potential has little meaning for those who have realized/recognized where it is they stand.

And, this is getting too long here, as usual, but when Celinda says:




When the Kingdom is made alive in us, then we will see the common ground from which we came.



and, as I read of her characteristically "Big Picture" way of knowing as she speaks of moving from where each individual stands to a higher place . . . I smile. I just sit there with a big dumb smile on my face, not unlike when reading some of "Learner's" rock solid contributions . . . because here we have both a demonstration and a description of a common ground (not unlike some above in this thread, and some in the AO and HOS threads as previously mentioned).

So, maybe in the end, somehow the phrase "a common ground" is causing some people to freak out like the word "buddhism" did for some others a while back? If that is the case the phrase " a common ground" can be dropped like a hot potato with no problem (especially if it is causing a stumbling block). Yes, Celinda, possibly exactly backwards here in the original question.

For that matter we can call a common ground, "bagel" from now on and we can first set about defining the word "bagel" and then after we may have some sort of grip on the word "bagel" we can ask the question in a new way that was asked initially. Or, that would be kind of silly wouldn't it? :)

Okay, seriously, how about if we drop the phrase "a common ground" and continue by trying to learn *what* the Church, from a historic Orthodox approach says the Kingdom of God *is.*

How about if we, (and especially with your expert help on this matter Matthew) all consider beginning with the above essays provided here, what the Kingdom of God *is* (according to those within the boundaries and limits of the Eastern Orthodox Church--the church fathers, the saints, etc.).

And, again for that matter, we can change the title of this thread, if that would be helpful to a new title: What is the Kingdom of God? What is the Kingdom of Heaven? As long as there are no sadducees around, we should be good to go. :) The pharisees are are actually a bunch of whimps, but those sadducees can be a real handful sometimes ;)

Okay, time to shut off the espresso maker for another day.

Celinda, thank you. Yes a disposition.

In Christ,
Rick

PS An after thought . . . what is a proof of the existence of a "bagel?"--possibly those of us from diverse backgrounds who are willing to be turned into babblers in order to point to such a place. But, a "bagel" is no longer the question is it?

[Basil Smith]

Just a short follow up 0n the "common ground" and the Kingdom of Heaven-I always heard that the Church (Orthodox thank you) is like a hospital for our souls.Christ is the great physician-we can't do it on our own.I have heard that the parable of the good samaritan is a kind of symbol for the Church(the Inn being the Church).That is why most Orthodox churches don't have steeples(reaching up to God) but are domed-because the Kingdom of God is there-at least a foreshadowing or foretaste of the Kingdom.Hope I contributed to this discussion.

[Marie-Duquette]

Dear All,

What is IT? "The Kingdom of God as Common Ground for all of creation"

[Marie-Duquette]

Dear All,

What is IT? "The Kingdom of God as Common Ground for all of creation"

When I first read(heard with my heart) these terms my heart lept for joy somehow. It all sounded mysterious yet so REAL for me.

Speaking of analogies, as Celinda did so eloquently up above in post #19, an analogy came to my mind's eye:

... a town in Maine called UNITY which each year hold a "COMMON GROUND FAIR" a quite mundane, down to earth, rural event that gathers people of the area in their personal diversity, all looking forward to contributing to the GREAT EVENT in so many varied ways for its success by showing to the fair-goers the possibility of working together for a unique Common Goal, which seems to be the building-up of a "spirit", a "common understanding", by expounding and expanding upon the Traditional ways of Rural Life, while being attuned to newness of TODAY!

So to expound upon these simple, down-to-earth thoughts I just simply go back to the beginning, seeing the big picture even unto a glimps of the End:

"In the beginning was the WORD(Logos), ............"Jn 1: .....

( one could read - pray the whole of John 1 here ))

"In the beginning God created heaven and earth ( the Kingdom of Heaven and the Common Ground of all created beings - Earth, - through the WORD "Let there be! .......... Gen 1: et al

( one could pray - read Genesis 1 - 2 - 3 here)

"Let us make man in OUR image and likeness .......) Gen 1;26-27

And marvels of marvels, God said, that all of that was good and very good. God walked in the Garden in the cool of the evening with His "New Creation" God-Trinity is Present where I stand on this Common Ground that came from His Heart of Love through His Word, and His Holy Spirit.!

So Matthew asks: A Common Ground for what?

God has initiated this Immense Movement by His Creative Word and invites me, you, the Orthodox Christian, trully all Peoples to respond to His Divine Work, by our work, the LITURGY (work of the people; and in unity of life-in-Christ to participate in building up the Kingdom of God, which is already here, and not yet fully manifest; to build not on sand but upon solid rock/ground provided by God Himself, the Ecclesia.


At present I am trying to re-read the most magnificent book:

HYMN OF ENTRY Liturgy and Life in the Orthodox Church by Archimandrite VASILEIOS

Bishop Kalistos Ware states in his Forward:

Hymn of Entry offers nothing less than a fresh vision of theology, the Church and the world -- a vision that is both original and yet genuinely traditional. The quality that characterizes this remarkable book is above all a sense of wholeness. The unity of heaven and earth in the Divine Liturgy, the unity between theology and spirituality, between theology and life -- such are the author's master-themes."

Just a few thought from the heart of a simple one,

marie_duquette

p.s. every thing done a step at a time upon this Common Ground of the Kingdom of God, both visible and invisible! "Indeed from His fulness we have all received , grace upon grace, since though the Law was given by Moses, grace and truth have come through Jesus Christ. Jn 1:17.

[John Charmley]

Dear Marie,

We are in your debt for a most moving post.

The phrase 'common ground' appears to be giving a few definitional problems. Matthew asked, inter alia

Are you asking about the potential of finding a common ground for ecumenical dialogue?
Just as that question was being asked I essayed one possible definition which might have been taken to allude to ecumenism when I wrote

We can read it as meaning that only those believers who are members of the invisible Church are subjects of that kingdom, but it has been used more loosely to include all those who strive to lead a life of repentance and purity, under the proclamation of the gospel; in short all who have a place in the 'visible Church'
But that would really depend on what one took ecumenism to be. We've explored this enough on this forum and few, if any here, subscribe to the idea of a unity which fudges edges and boundaries. I don't see 'the kingdom of God' as defined above as a 'common ground for ecumenical dialogue' - there are more than enough of those.

It is more the sort of thing that the great Syrian theologian and polymath, Mar Greogius Yujanon Abu 'l-Farag Bar Ebroyo (Barhebraeus, to most of us) was getting at when he wrote in chapter 4 of the the Book of the Dove

When I had given much thought and pondered on the matter, I became convinced that these quarrels of Christians among themselves are not a matter of factual substance, but rather one of words and terms. For they all confess Christ Our Lord to be perfect God and perfect human, without any commingling, mixing, or confusion of the natures. This bipinnate 'likeness' ( Phil. 2:6-7) is termed by one party a 'nature', by another 'a hypostasis' and by yet another a 'person'. Thus I saw all the Christian communities, with their different Christological positions, as possessing a single common ground that is without any difference. Accordingly I totally eradicated any hatred from the depths of my heart, and I completely renounced disputing with anyone over confessional matters.

In Christ,

John

[Lourens]

Thus I saw all the Christian communities, with their different Christological positions, as possessing a single common ground that is without any difference. Accordingly I totally eradicated any hatred from the depths of my heart, and I completely renounced disputing with anyone over confessional matters.

Yahooooooo! Mountain dew!!!!

Thank you, John Charmley. Sir, I am blessed!


Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity!

It is like the precious ointment upon the head, that ran down upon the beard, even Aaron's beard: that went down to the skirts of his garments;

As the dew of Hermon, and as the dew that descended upon the mountains of Zion: for there the LORD commanded the blessing, even life forevermore. Psa 133:1-3

Where the LORD commands the blessing----the common ground?


"Accordingly I totally eradicated any hatred from the depths of my heart, and I completely renounced disputing with anyone over confessional matters."


LORD, my heart is not haughty, nor mine eyes lofty: neither do I exercise myself in great matters, or in things too high for me.

Surely I have behaved and quieted myself, as a child that is weaned of his mother: my soul is even as a weaned child. Psa 131:1-2

Spiritual direction
came my way
today

I pray
Bless!
that I may
find this, my way, true
and reach that common land
holy and pure
with all of you!


Respectfully,

Learner

[John Charmley]

Dear Learner,

I am glad that you found, as others here have, a healing balm in the quotation.

It seemed to me that Barhebraeus wrote in the spirit of Mark 10:15
15 Assuredly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a little child will by no means enter it.

It is a spirit to be commended to us all.

In Christ,

John