New ROCOR monastery?

[Robin Elizabeth]

Hi all.

I've heard that ROCOR has started a new English speaking monastery for women in America. Is that true? Does anyone have info about it?

Thanks

[Rebecca Gabl]

Hi all.

I've heard that ROCOR has started a new English speaking monastery for women in America. Is that true? Does anyone have info about it?

Thanks

As far as I know, there aren't any immediate plans, but it is in the works. If something has actually started, well, that would be awesome.

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

I've also been told that the western rite ROCOR monastery that was in the eastern States is moving to Hamilton, Ontario in Canada. Interesting.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Nina]

I've also been told that the western rite ROCOR monastery that was in the eastern States is moving to Hamilton, Ontario in Canada. Interesting.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

Dear Father,

Your blessings.

Please explain for me what is a 'western rite ROCOR monastery'?

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear Father,

Your blessings.

Please explain for me what is a 'western rite ROCOR monastery'?

The 'western rite' is a form of the services as they existed in the west before the Great Schism. This 'western rite' however isn't just one pre-Schism rite but rather a number of different ones. In some cases these rites have been adjusted where they do not meet contemporary Orthodox standards.

There are several parishes & monasteries within different Orthodox jurisdictions which have a blessing to follow these rites.

Here is a link to some interesting info on the western rite (http://www.allmercifulsavior.com/Liturgy/Liturgics.html) within Orthodoxy.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Michael Astley]

This is true, Father. It is Christminster (http://www.christminster.org/). The announcement is here (http://www.christminster.org/announcement.htm).

They have laboured under difficult space restrictions for some time so this is truly a blessing. It is a double-blessing in that a priestless mission (http://www.westernorthodox.ca/) of the Antiochian Archdiocese will now have a monastery on its doorstep served by two hieromonks. Time will tell what the efforts, love, and prayer behind all of this will effect, through God's grace. I, for one, am delighted, and continue to pray for them.

Pax,
Michael

[Shawn Lazar]

Hi all. I thought I'd mention that I attend the ROCOR Western Rite monastery in Rhode Island, under Fr. James Deschenes. I can testify that it has been a great blessing to me to be under his ministry. The congregation is quite small (no more than 6 of us at a time) and we meet in Fr. James' living room which has been turned into a sanctuary. Unfortunately for me, as was mentioned, Fr. James and Fr. Joseph will be moving to Hamilton, ON in the coming year. So if you're in that area, I highly suggest looking them up!

Blessings,
Shawn

[Andreas Moran]

There are several parishes & monasteries within different Orthodox jurisdictions which have a blessing to follow these rites.

A blessing from whom? I thought the canon of services was fixed. Are these Western Rite liturgies canonical? Are they authorised for use in the Patriarchates of Constantinople and Moscow, for instance?

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

A blessing from whom? I thought the canon of services was fixed. Are these Western Rite liturgies canonical? Are they authorised for use in the Patriarchates of Constantinople and Moscow, for instance?

Even within each local church services are in constant flux. For example see the Bogosluzhebnie Nakazaniya from Russia which often has interesting comments on the different ways of doing the services. At times one can tell they actually are urging a return to on older standard which has been largely lost in present times (eg the Lenten order during the lesser fasts). Or else they give little pointers which could slightly alter a service if one didn't know about this oneself (eg their pointing out that it is a common tradition- but not from the Typikon- to leave the Royal Doors open during the readings at Great Vespers if these are from the Epistles).

In any case from the east we have received the Typikon of St Sava (St Sabba). This was developed only very gradually from monastic influences from St Sava's Monastery in Jerusalem and then from the Studion Monastery in Constantinople. The Russians adopted this Typikon themselves later on. In recent times the Greeks revised this Typikon for the festal Matins.

Each local church and even locality however always had variations of the services. The printing press and blessed service books must have gone a long way to creating uniform services within local churches. But even then as can easily be seen now, the more is printed the more the process of absolute uniformity tends to reverse itself to some extent.

Apart from the Typikon of St Sava for our eastern services there is also use of a western rite among a number of jurisditions (Antiochene, MP in the west, ROCOR). In fact this rite is not one rite but rather a number of different western rites which are all pre-schism in origin.

I have not seen any of these western rite services myself so cannot give any assessment. One hears points both for and at times against. But it would seem that western rite is part of the Orthodox scene even if only a very small part at present.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Andreas Moran]

My point was that if these western rite liturgies are authorised for use - albeit in limited places - by EP and MP, that is one thing. If they are not - I mean, if a priest in, say, Russia or Rhodes, is not allowed to use these liturgies, then there is a problem. I don't see how in the One Church, some things can be canonical for one local Church and not for another.

Generally, why can't people just become mainstream Orthodox and have done with it? This 'liturgical archaeology' seems to contrived to me.

[Michael Astley]

My point was that if these western rite liturgies are authorised for use - albeit in limited places - by EP and MP, that is one thing. If they are not - I mean, if a priest in, say, Russia or Rhodes, is not allowed to use these liturgies, then there is a problem. I don't see how in the One Church, some things can be canonical for one local Church and not for another.

Generally, why can't people just become mainstream Orthodox and have done with it? This 'liturgical archaeology' seems to contrived to me.

I can assure you, Andreas, that those who belong to the Western rites do not see themselves as liturgical archaeologists. They are just trying to work out their salvation, along with the rest of us. Some do better than others, and by God's grace make more spiritual progress than others. Some have more baggage to shed than others, just like Orthodox Christians of any rite. They have the blessing of their bishops to belong to rites that were never at any point abolished in Orthodoxy and to which many Saints belonged and which existed side by side for centuries by people who shared the same Faith and were in one communion of the Church. I can see how there are legitimate concerns that people may have about the particular circumstances under which the Western Rite is restored in some cases. However, this in itself is no reason for a blanket dismissal of something that has formed so many Saints in the Orthodox Faith.

You give your location as Britain and so you must know of the wealth of Saints of these islands and must have made pilgrimage to their holy places and, where they survive, venerated their relics. I speak to my American and Australian friends who are often gobsmacked when I tell them about my visits to churches that are over 1000 years old and were originally Orthodox, or when I tell them about the various holy places here in the northwest alone to which we Othodox people regularly make pilgrimage, and I realise just how blessed we are in Britain to have this rich Orthodox heritage. The Church of Russia (MP & ROCOR) has blessed use of the Western Rite in different times and places, as have Serbia, Antioch, and Romania, and possibly others about which I don't know - and people have come to Orthodoxy. Blessed be God!

Nobody is forcing anybody else to belong to a particular rite and both Byzantine and Western Rites are legitimately Orthodox and those who belong to either are in one communion of faith and love with the rest.


Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be Eastern. The West was fully Orthodox for a thousand years, and her venerable Liturgy is far older than any of her heresies. - St John the Wonderworker

Pax,
Michael

[Kris]

They have the blessing of their bishops to belong to rites that were never at any point abolished in Orthodoxy and to which many Saints belonged and which existed side by side for centuries by people who shared the same Faith and were in one communion of the Church.

Considering the most commonly used Western Rite liturgy in the USA is a revised form of the Anglican Book of Common Prayer, they belong to a rite that never existed in Orthodoxy at all.

[Andreas Moran]

Being English, of course I am aware of the many centuries the Church existed here before 1054, and I have a great love of some of the saints from those times, especially some of the 7th-8th centuries. But I don't feel I have to rummage around in early liturgical texts to feel a connection with them. I suspect as pure nostalgia any attempt to reconstruct liturgies from Celtic and Anglo-Saxon times. The Orthodox Church is not an antiquarian society. The adaptation of Episcopalian and Anglican services to Orthodox use strikes me as eccentric. I am aware of the so-called Liturgy of St Tikhon, and that does not persuade me. The Liturgies of the Orthodox Church - of St John Chrysostom, St Basil, and the Presanctified Liturgy - have developed to express the fulness of Orthodox theology and worship. We need no others.

Is there an answer to my question, which is: is it permissible for any priest anywhere of MP, of EP, or the Church of Greece, to use the Sarum Mass or the Liturgy of St Tikhon? If the answer is, 'no', then these things are divisive.

[Michael Astley]

I, too, have my reservations about the manner of implementation of the Western Rite in some places and circumstances but don't see these as reasons for its wholesale abandonment. Fortunately, I am not a bishop and it doesn't fall on my shoulders to ascertain what is good, for whom, and where. I just plod along, by God's grace, which is all any of us can do, I suppose.

Pax,
Michael

[Andreas Moran]

The Holy Tradition of the Orthodox Church is living. An intellectual desire to revive ancient forms of liturgy, or to invent new forms, is contrary to Holy Tradition. The three Liturgies we know and use are not 'Eastern'; they were inspired by the Holy Spirit, Who is the soul of Holy Tradition, to become the liturgies of the One, Holy, CATHOLIC, and Apostolic Church. They are the forms of worship of the Universal Church in all places and at all times. With these liturgies, we are in communion not only with the early saints of Britain and Gaul, but with all saints of all centuries in all places: with St Cuthbert, with St Seraphim of Sarov, with St Nektarios, with the New Martyrs of Russia, with St Nikolai Velimirovich, and with the whole of the Church Triumphant. We can be sensitive to and learn more about the early saints of Britain or, say, Armorica, but we cannot revive the worship of those times. For the same reasons, you cannot bring innovations into Holy Tradition. The Divine Liturgy of St John Chrysostom can be served in Welsh, Breton, Irish, Terek, native North American languages - any language you like. Then you are swimming in the stream of Holy Tradition. To seek out and revive early forms of liturgy from any particular locality - England or anywhere else - smacks to me of the very kind of ethnicity we know about and must avoid. I was very impressed by an article in a journal called, 'The Road to Emmaus' (Vol. IV, No 4) by a Breton Orthodox priest called Fr Maxime. He is successfully evangelising Brittany for Orthodoxy and is reviving interest in the Church in that land in the early centuries. He celebrates sometimes in the ancient Breton language but uses the Liturgy of St John Chrysostom and is against any idea of trying to revive the ancient Gallic liturgy. I have based my comments in this post to some extent on what he writes. He says we must worship in the One Tradition which has never been cut.

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Knowing how the Church works I think it safe to assume that wherever such rites are used a blessing somewhere along the line has been given.

It is another question though of the place of such rites in the life of the Church. As I've already said I've had no experience of such rites so I can't really speak as to the motivation behind them. In some cases one hears of situations which seem like an effort to retain questionable baggage from one's past. But in others there seems a genuine effort to recover that experience of the Orthodox ecumene which was very much present a number of centuries ago.

For example not long ago in our church (rocor) St Mark's Liturgy was served by episcopal blessing. St James' Liturgy has also been served both in the Russian and the Greek churches for at least a century. So there is the serving of other liturgies beyond the 'normal' three even though this is occasional.

In my own mind the most valid point in the use of other rites is the possible recovery of an Orthodox world which was very much present at one time in the Church. Not knowing hard and fast boundaries these different rites influenced each other and also led to an important sense of what the unity of the Church is.

This last I think is the most important point here for as I mentioned previously, in fact, within the one way of doing services (ie that which follows the Typikon of St Sava) one sees an incredible amount of variety. In other words even though a basic unity is desirable this is for the sake of preventing self-will and unwarranted personal creativity running amok & not to impose an identical way of serving or doing the services within the whole Church. If we do the latter, precisely we cut off the ability to do those services in Breton or English we wish. For in reality as one can see within actual parish life the way in which the services is done does become different even if only in ethos, singing and reading style, etc etc.

The delicate challenge I would say is that with balance and discernment one must allow for this variety even while encouraging it to manifest itself as part of a greater unity.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Father David Moser]

For example not long ago in our church (rocor) St Mark's Liturgy was served by episcopal blessing. St James' Liturgy has also been served both in the Russian and the Greek churches for at least a century. So there is the serving of other liturgies beyond the 'normal' three even though this is occasional.

There has also been translated and approved for use a presanctified liturgy of St James now. I don't know that it has been used of yet, however, the translator - Fr John Shaw of Holy Trinity in Milwaukee - informed me of its existence recently.

Fr David Moser

[Andreas Moran]

Perfectly canonical is the Missal of Ardpeevish. This 7th century work survives in a 9th century copy which suggests that this liturgical text was the work of St Claggan of Eileann-an-Bualdhdasch. The copy was made by St Colcannon (Ir. Cal Ceannann), an Irish monk who journeyed to western Scotland to collect liturgical texts. According to a marginal note by St Colcannon, St Claggan travelled on pilgrimage as far as Constantinople, memorised the Liturgy used in the Great Church there, and miraculously sailed in a boat made of fig leaves and eucalyptus twigs through the river systems of Russia, out into the Baltic, across the North Sea, round the top of Scotland and so to home. He landed at Muck Hiersay on 25 October 678 (2 February 643 according to the Arrghrubhisch calendar in use on Eileann-an-Bualdhdasch). St Claggan wrote what he could remember of the liturgy, using the language of his native island. To commemorate his safe return, this liturgy was celebrated once a year on 25 October in the church of the village of Tossmacaber, the nearest settlement to Muck Hiersay. So far as I know, the text has not been translated into English but there are two very elderly haggis skin makers living in Tossmacaber who still speak the language St Claggan used.

[Father David Moser]

Perfectly canonical is the Missal of Ardpeevish....

Love it!

Fr David Moser

[Shawn Lazar]

I don't want to say too much here, because I am largely ignorant of the development of the liturgical traditions in the east and west, but as I understand it, Christmister (the Western Rite ROCOR monastery in Rhode Island) celebrates the liturgy (or 'mass') according to the Rule of St. Benedict. And the Orthodox venerate him, right?

Also, someone asked whether we were under the MP or EP. Does that refer to the Moscow or Ecumenical Patriarchate? If so, then yes, Christminster is under the Moscow Patriarchate. Thus we remember Patriach Alexi, Metropolitan Laurus, and (if I remember correctly) Bishop Gregory during the mass.

Someone also asked why we insist on these Western rites, rather than join the Byzantine tradition and just be done with it? I would suggest three reasons.

First, because it is true and beautiful. (That's a legitimate Orthodox argument, isn't it?)

Second, because having western rites is a symbol of the true catholicity of Orthodoxy. The OC is not just a marginal "eastern" thing practiced among a shrinking minority of people in former-communist eastern european countries (which I grew up believing). It truly is the one church that existed before the great schism, and the provenance of its liturgies confirms this.

But thirdly, I would suggest that Western rite liturgies make a whole lot more sense to Westerners. At least that has been my experience. The Byzantine liturgies I've attended are... well... pretty wordy and repetitive, and inhabit a totally different cultural sensibility than what I have known. Which, I'm sure, helps to communicate its message well in those other cultures, or among people familiar with those cultures. But coming from a strictly non-liturgical Baptist background, I find I can better understand and identify with the content of our rather simple, clear, and straight-forward western-rite liturgy far more easily than I can the Byzantine.

Cheers,
Shawn


St. John Maximovitch: “Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern. The West was Orthodox for a thousand years, and her venerable liturgy is far older than any of her heresies.”

[Herman Blaydoe]

The Holy Tradition of the Orthodox Church is living. An intellectual desire to revive ancient forms of liturgy, or to invent new forms, is contrary to Holy Tradition.

Please forgive, but I find this to be a rather surprising and totally unsupported position. I believe that history, in fact, proves otherwise. There exists right now more than one "approved" Divine Liturgy. St. John Chrysostom took liberties with the liturgical practice of his day to give us the Divine Liturgy that goes by his name. So how is changing liturgical practice contrary to Holy Tradition? If that were so, there would be no Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom! The fact that there are ancient forms of liturgy shows that a diverse liturgical practices once flourished in the undivided Church.

The Byzantine tradition is ubiquitous to the Byzantine Church. But can't there be a Church that is not Byzantine? I say that as one who loves the Liturgy of St. John as much as anyone. I don't see where a justifiable case has been made that it represents the end-all and be-all of corporate worship for all.

[Rick H.]

Herman wrote:




The fact that there are ancient forms of liturgy shows that a diverse liturgical practice once flourished in the undivided Church.



I must say that I'm with you on this one Herman. As well, my day was started on a very good note earlier when I read the following in this thread by Father Raphael:





The delicate challenge I would say is that with balance and discernment one must allow for this variety even while encouraging it to manifest itself as part of a greater unity.

In Christ- Fr Raphael



In Christ,
Rick

[Andreas Moran]

Perfectly canonical is the Missal of Ardpeevish. This 7th century work survives in a 9th century copy which suggests that this liturgical text was the work of St Claggan of Eileann-an-Bualdhdasch. The copy was made by St Colcannon (Ir. Cal Ceannann), an Irish monk who journeyed to western Scotland to collect liturgical texts. According to a marginal note by St Colcannon, St Claggan travelled on pilgrimage as far as Constantinople, memorised the Liturgy used in the Great Church there, and miraculously sailed in a boat made of fig leaves and eucalyptus twigs through the river systems of Russia, out into the Baltic, across the North Sea, round the top of Scotland and so to home. He landed at Muck Hiersay on 25 October 678 (2 February 643 according to the Arrghrubhisch calendar in use on Eileann-an-Bualdhdasch). St Claggan wrote what he could remember of the liturgy, using the language of his native island. To commemorate his safe return, this liturgy was celebrated once a year on 25 October in the church of the village of Tossmacaber, the nearest settlement to Muck Hiersay. So far as I know, the text has not been translated into English but there are two very elderly haggis skin makers living in Tossmacaber who still speak the language St Claggan used.

Oh, dear! Well, either this was way too subtle for you all or it just wasn't funny. But just to be clear - it's a spoof! I mean - peevish; Bualdhdasch - balderdash; Hiersay - hearsay; Arrghrubhisch - arrgh! Rubbish; toss my caber ??? And Claggan and Colcannon are types of Scottish food . . . I had thought that years of dreaming up silly scenarios for law students to discuss in class hadn't been wasted, but . . .

[Rick H.]

Oh, dear! Well, either this was way too subtle for you all or it just wasn't funny. But just to be clear - it's a spoof! I mean - peevish; Bualdhdasch - balderdash; Hiersay - hearsay; Arrghrubhisch - arrgh! Rubbish; toss my caber ??? And Claggan and Colcannon are types of Scottish food . . . I had thought that years of dreaming up silly scenarios for law students to discuss in class hadn't been wasted, but . . .

Andreas,

I must admit that I quit reading this post that you refer to after the second line . . . but, now that you bring me up to speed on such things as claggan and colcannon, I think this is very funny and I seem to be in the mood for a claggan sandwich now!

In Christ,
Rick

[Father David Moser]

Oh, dear! Well, either this was way too subtle for you all or it just wasn't funny.

I personally think it was subtle - and beautifully so. Not being too familiar with Scottish and Celtic language, I tend to skip over proper names and such if they are beyond pronunciation (I used to do the same thing with Russian names when I read Dostoevsky in High School). It wasn't until "Tossmacaber" that I actually began to suspect the true nature of the post and then when I finally "got" it and went back and read it I was roaring with laughter and chuckling at the remembrance of it for the rest of the day. Thank you again for this bright little gem.

Fr David Moser

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Father David wrote:


It wasn't until "Tossmacaber" that I actually began to suspect the true nature of the post and then when I finally "got" it and went back and read it I was roaring with laughter and chuckling at the remembrance of it for the rest of the day. Thank you again for this bright little gem.


Maybe the name of the village "Tossmacaber" comes from the time the Irish monk spent in Russia so that the "c" is read like an "s".

Thus the correct pronunciation has to be: Toss-ma-saber which in Medieval times became the war cry of the Irish against the King of England.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Andreas Moran]

A penetrating insight, Father Raphael!

Colcannon is good fasting food - it's a mash of potato, cabbage and onion. No, really!

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Andreas Moran wrote:



A penetrating insight, Father Raphael!

Yes, sitting on a snow bank for 8 months of the year at -40 degrees seems to really sharpen the senses.

[Michael Astley]

Andreas Moran wrote:



Yes, sitting on a snow bank for 8 months of the year at -40 degrees seems to really sharpen the senses.

Chairs really are much more comfortable, Father. :-)

[Andreas Moran]

Nah! Chairs are for whimps! The only symptom Father has suffered is a split infinitive.

[M.C. Steenberg]

The only symptom Father has suffered is a split infinitive.

Bravo! Bravo! This whole thread has brought me intense glee.

INXC, Dcn Matthew

[Shawn Lazar]

Oops, I mistakenly said that we were under Bishop Gregory, but I should have said Bishop Gabriel! Sorry!