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John Wilson
25-07-2007, 03:14 AM
I came across this article in the The Guardian and while it does not specifically pertain to Orthodoxy (its about Islam), I thought there might be some people who would appreciate it.
VIrgins? What virgins? (http://www.guardian.co.uk/saturday_review/story/0,3605,631332,00.html)

Scholars have long pointed out that these images are clearly drawn pictures and must have been inspired by the art of painting. Muhammad, or whoever is responsible for the descriptions, may well have seen Christian miniatures or mosaics representing the gardens of paradise and has interpreted the figures of angels rather literally as those of young men and young women. A further textual influence on the imagery found in the Koran is the work of Ephrem the Syrian [306-373 CE], Hymns on Paradise, written in Syriac, an Aramaic dialect and the language of Eastern Christianity, and a Semitic language closely related to Hebrew and Arabic.

This naturally leads to the most fascinating book ever written on the language of the Koran, and if proved to be correct in its main thesis, probably the most important book ever written on the Koran. Christoph Luxenberg's book, Die Syro-Aramaische Lesart des Koran, available only in German, came out just over a year ago, but has already had an enthusiastic reception, particularly among those scholars with a knowledge of several Semitic languages at Princeton, Yale, Berlin, Potsdam, Erlangen, Aix-en-Provence, and the Oriental Institute in Beirut.

Luxenberg tries to show that many obscurities of the Koran disappear if we read certain words as being Syriac and not Arabic. We cannot go into the technical details of his methodology but it allows Luxenberg, to the probable horror of all Muslim males dreaming of sexual bliss in the Muslim hereafter, to conjure away the wide-eyed houris promised to the faithful in suras XLIV.54; LII.20, LV.72, and LVI.22. Luxenberg 's new analysis, leaning on the Hymns of Ephrem the Syrian, yields "white raisins" of "crystal clarity" rather than doe-eyed, and ever willing virgins - the houris. Luxenberg claims that the context makes it clear that it is food and drink that is being offerred, and not unsullied maidens or houris.

In Syriac, the word hur is a feminine plural adjective meaning white, with the word "raisin" understood implicitly. Similarly, the immortal, pearl-like ephebes or youths of suras such as LXXVI.19 are really a misreading of a Syriac expression meaning chilled raisins (or drinks) that the just will have the pleasure of tasting in contrast to the boiling drinks promised the unfaithful and damned.

It had always intrigued me how Islam, which has its roots in Judaism and Christianity, could end up with a view of paradise so diametrically opposed to that of the Church, completely carnal instead of spiritual.

The thesis of this book presents a very interesting possibility indeed.

John

Effie Ganatsios
25-07-2007, 08:38 AM
Hello John, good to "see" you again.

Some things I found :

"Q. - Let´s come to the misunderstandings. One of the most glaring errors you cite is that of the virgins promised, in the Islamic paradise, to the suicide bombers.

A. - "We begin from the term ´huri,´ for which the Arabic commentators could not find any meaning other than those heavenly virgins. But if one keeps in mind the derivations from Syro-Aramaic, that expression indicated ´white grapes,´ which is one of the symbolic elements of the Christian paradise, recalled in the Last Supper of Jesus. There´s another Koranic expression, falsely interpreted as ´the children´ or ´the youths´ of paradise: in Aramaic: it designates the fruit of the vine, which in the Koran is compared to pearls. As for the symbols of paradise, these interpretive errors are probably connected to the male monopoly in Koranic commentary and interpretation."

The above is from :http://chiesa.espresso.repubblica.it/dettaglio.jsp?id=7025&eng=y

See also : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Syro-Aramaic_Reading_Of_The_Qur'an



Reliable translations are essential because we sometimes base our opinion on something that might not be correct in the first place.




Effie

Effie Ganatsios
25-07-2007, 08:44 AM
Something that made an impression on me was why the Islamic "heaven" should be all about pleasures that are earthly. We know that life was hard in the desert and pleasures such as lovely, cool drinks, and iced fruit etc. would indeed have been what the people then would relish. Was the heaven promised them custom made for desert people?

Mourad Mankarios
26-07-2007, 01:52 PM
Wow, those suicide bombers sure are gonna be upset when they end up with 72 white raisins...

Paul Cowan
31-07-2007, 04:03 AM
Wow, those suicide bombers sure are gonna be upset when they end up with 72 white raisins...


LOL!!! That made my night.

Andreas Moran
31-07-2007, 04:34 PM
A Greek friend of mine said, 'what if you don't fancy them? ' (The virgins, not the raisins!)

Andreas Moran
31-07-2007, 04:53 PM
I had to look up 'LOL'. Internet slang for 'laugh[ed] out loud'. Re the KJV thread, imagine the Bible written in internetese. 'And Sarah LOL . . . ' (Genesis 18:12). (yes, OK, she laughed in herself not out loud)

Paul Cowan
01-08-2007, 05:55 AM
Sorry Andreas,

I suppose if I expect people to translate say, Latin, for me on the forum, I should have the courtesy to translate Internetese.

BTW= By the way
LOL= Laughing out loud
ROFL= rolling on the floor laughing
LMAO= laughing my a** off
BRB= Be right back

Of course with any dictionary, it can be endless.

in XC (Christ)
Paul

John Charmley
02-08-2007, 01:39 PM
The mindset that equates Paradise with 72 virgins seems more than a little curious; the white raisins on the other hands ... .



INXC,

John

Andreas Moran
02-08-2007, 04:00 PM
Indeed, John. I mean - 72 (of either) isn't many for eternity, is it?