An 'authentic' spiritual guide?

[Rick H.]

Dear All,

In another thread today, I read the following:




Perhaps it is worth bearing in mind that Elder Sophrony said that the Jesus Prayer was not for everyone, and the first part of preparation would be to have the blessing of an experienced and authentic spiritual guide to say it at all.



and the adjective/modifier 'authentic' really caught my attention. I found myself wondering what is really being said here--what is an 'authentic' spiritual guide?

What makes a person an authentic spiritual guide?

And, we have writings from the saints about how to spot the false guide, and what to do when no spiritual guide is available, so I am not so much interested in the first part of the above quote with this question. But, I wonder if we can bring some definition to what we are saying? I wonder if we can give some meaning to this, otherwise we are not really saying anything of use here.

In Christ,
Rick

[James Blackstock]

I too wonder about this issue. The parish priest seems to claim this position regardless of how one feels about it. Sometimes I do not respect the spiritual guidance of the local priest. They are very busy with issues in the parish and don't always know the people very well. Seldom does the priest seem to have the time to get to know the people as he should. More often than not, I receive guidance from books and patristic writings. I my case, our priest resigned as the pastor, for personal reasons, and had to be talked out of leaving the priesthood as well. Our parish is now lead by a part time priest with a full time job of his own. What is one to do?

[Father David Moser]

I too wonder about this issue. The parish priest seems to claim this position regardless of how one feels about it. Sometimes I do not respect the spiritual guidance of the local priest.

Since I have taken a position similar to the above in the past, please allow me to comment. The parish priest is the "default" spiritual father and confessor of the parish - but that does not automatically make him "an authentic spiritual guide". The parish priest is a "generalist" in that he has in his flock those who barely come to services at all on one hand and on the other he has those who seem to want to be athonite ascetics while living in the world - and everything in between. Most parish priests, when approached by a parishioner who is looking for a more in depth spiritual life will provide what guidance he can, usually with the help of books and other patristic writings, but if the person's desire is beyond his ability - like any good physician - he will refer to a specialist.

So perhaps in answer to the question, an "authentic spiritual guide" in this context is a person who has deep experience in the ascetic and prayerful life (almost always found in monastic life in the modern world) who is himself under obedience to a church authority in union with one's own bishop and who has a blessing from his superiors to act in that capacity. You would go to this person with the blessing/consent of your parish priest (who has to deal with you on a day to day basis, unless of course you are moving into the monastery where your spiritual guide lives - but that is a different situation then.)

Fr David Moser

[Andreas Moran]

Father David, your blessing,

Thank you for making clear what I meant by 'authentic spiritual guide'. In using the expression, I had in mind Bishop Eirenaios's comment from quite some time ago that Greece was plagued with people (usually hieromonks) who held themselves out as spiritual fathers but who had no qualification or blessing to be such but were self-appointed. He mentioned to me one or two disasters that had resulted from this, the hapless souls who had suffered coming to him to be straightened out. Elder Sophrony, like many another Holy Father (such as St Seraphim of Sarov), makes clear what true spiritual fatherhood is. And even a true spiritual father can get it wrong if he speaks of his own without that deep prayer through which the Holy Spirit inspires him.

The 'authenticity' commonly flows from spiritual guides forming links in a chain, At the beginning of the chain may be a great elder (universally recognised as such in his time) such as St Sergius of Radonezh (founder of the Lavra in the 14th century) who nevertheless will have been formed from Holy Tradition. This charisma is then passed from one generation to another; thus the links can be seen from St Sergius down to our own times in the person of Staretz Kyrill.

That Elder Sophrony said the Jesus Prayer was not for everyone was told to me by Fr Zacharias. He said that when he was much younger, he was giving instruction in the Prayer to a sister in the monastery. Elder Sophrony said to Fr Zacharias, 'What are you doing? Can't you see? - this is not for her.' 'How, then will be she saved?' asked Fr Zacharias. 'She will be saved by humbly doing her work', Elder Sophrony replied.

So much is said and written about the Jesus Prayer that people may think they are 'missing out' or that their spiritual life must be lacking if they are not practising it. Yet, for example, Lydia has been under the direction of her spiritual father at the Holy Trinity St Serguis Lavra for many years and she has not (yet) been given a blessing to practise this prayer and so she does not do so.

[Matthew Panchisin]

What makes a person an authentic spiritual guide?

There never is one nor can there ever be one without authentic spiritual children. From what I have been told the 'usual' Parish Priest is sometimes seen in a much different way then.

In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin

[Rick H.]

What is an 'Authentic' Spiritual Guide?

Dear All,

Initially, the statement is made that the blessing of an experienced and 'authentic' spiritual guide is required.

Next, the question is asked, what is an 'authentic' spiritual guide? To which Father David begins to lay a foundation and provides some helpful input, But, then, with our question, we find ourselves slipping back into the kind of reasoning, which is akin to running in circles, and yields a state of stupor more than not viz:




There never is one nor can there ever be one without authentic spiritual children.



Like elsewhere, when the question is asked: Who is the one that subscribes to the true apostolic witness? And then it is answered:




Well, this is the one who has been taught by those who teach the teachings of the true apostolic witness!



Here too I wonder why we can't we articulate our Faith any better than this? Most of us would frown on the web-of-belief that the 'post-modern' uses as his/her M.O., because there is no basis for what is being said. The thinking and knowing of the 'post-modern' is based on the mini-narrative of their own personal experience--what they think--and this amounts to something akin to a blowing around in the wind like a snowflake on a windy day. There can be no foundation or "foundationalism" involved with the 'post-modern' or his 'system,' his whole house of cards will come crashing down.

One can bring no definition to what he is saying or it will threaten his whole way of being. But what is worse than this . . . he himself[!] can bring no definition to what he himself is saying or he will provide his own fatal flaw and wreck his house himself.

So, it is obvious why the one who has bought into the post-modern myth cannot articulate his way of knowing and living, it is very clear why he must zig and zag and bob and weave and run in circles when one would attempt to bring definition to what he is saying . . . but, why can we Orthodox not seem to do any better most of the time?

I appreciate the sentiment very much that when the student is ready the teacher appears! There is much wisdom to be found in this expression.

But, again, what is an "authentic" spiritual guide?

In Christ,
Rick

[Father David Moser]

[B][I]
Next, the question is asked, what is an 'authentic' spiritual guide? To which Father David begins to lay a foundation and provides some helpful input, but ....

But, again, what is an "authentic" spiritual guide?


Perhaps, Rick, you could help by suggesting what kind of an answer you are seeking. It seems that when a concrete answer is given you often reply "yes, but" as if the answer that is there doesn't quite meet your expectations - however, I'm not sure then what your expectations for an answer are.

So in response to your question, I guess I would have to ask the question: What are you asking for? What would satisfy your desire to know? (at least in this topic - we know from experience your desire for knowledge seems unquenchable)

Fr David Moser

[Rick H.]

Perhaps, Rick, you could help by suggesting what kind of an answer you are seeking. It seems that when a concrete answer is given you often reply "yes, but" as if the answer that is there doesn't quite meet your expectations - however, I'm not sure then what your expectations for an answer are.

So in response to your question, I guess I would have to ask the question: What are you asking for? What would satisfy your desire to know? (at least in this topic - we know from experience your desire for knowledge seems unquenchable)

Fr David Moser


Dear Father David,

I am starting to think you were a salesman at one time in your life--as a salesman always answers a question with a question :)

But, I think this question could be addressed on several levels. I, personally, would appreciate a consideration of the 'cry of the heart' that we hear in James post above. What is James really saying in his post? He is saying what are we supposed to do!/?

I wonder who can hear the real question there? It does not take a great deal of pastoral care training or experience to hear what is being said by James. I think he is not alone in this expression on these boards.

To this so far we have:




. . . an "authentic spiritual guide" in this context is a person who has deep experience in the ascetic and prayerful life (almost always found in monastic life in the modern world) who is himself under obedience to a church authority in union with one's own bishop and who has a blessing from his superiors to act in that capacity.



If we are to approach it on this level, we might as well have replied to James:




. . . bagel, chicken, gas can, bagel trash can zoom--zoom . . . bagel.



Possibly, we can approach this from a practical level to begin with? In another thread you wrote about the present state of spiritual direction indicating, I think, that there are fewer spiritual directors/'elders' than there are priests in the US. If there are not enough priests to handle the job, as it would seem, then what are we saying to James about his or anyone else's opportunity for 'authentic' spiritual direction? If we start crunching the numbers, then possibly we will find that this is a moot point, but then what does this say to the cry of the heart of James and others?

So possibly we can begin here as it relates to 'authentic' spiritual direction in the real world.

In Christ,
Rick

[Father David Moser]

Possibly, we can approach this from a practical level to begin with? In another thread you wrote about the present state of spiritual direction indicating, I think, that there are fewer spiritual directors/'elders' than there are priests in the US. If there are not enough priests to handle the job, as it would seem, then what are we saying to James about his or anyone else's opportunity for 'authentic' spiritual direction? If we start crunching the numbers, then possibly we will find that this is a moot point, but then what does this say to the cry of the heart of James and others?

I'm not sure what you mean about "cry of the heart" but let's assume that we are on the same page with this in that the question is not about objective criteria, but it is about finding such a person for one's own spiritual guidance. Am I closer?

I agree that there are fewer authentic spiritual guides/elders than there are priests in the US. I would say far fewer as a matter of fact. I would also say that many people do not find themselves in need of such a person in their daily lives and that the parish priest as pastor is sufficient for them where they are. For those who do need such a guide (or at least who think they do) then the very first thing to do is to pray and ask God to direct you to such a person. Then begin making visits to places where such elders are reported to be. This may mean making an extended pilgrimage to a monastery, to Russia, to Athos, or to wherever such a person might be located. God gives us what we need and therefore if we are seeking a more intense spiritual life, He will certainly provide for us that which we need. Let us look at the example of St Barsanuphios of Optina. Though a career military colonel, he sought such a life and traveled to Optina where he met with the elder Ambrose. He was sent back into the world to finish his duties as a military man and when the time came to retire he moved into the Optina skete and there learned from his elder. Or along the same lines the spiritual writer Sergei Nilus who moved himself and his wife into a house near Optina monastery so that he could draw from the well of the spiritual elders there. Or Nicholas Motovilov who sought out St Seraphim and who became his closest disciple, doing the Saint's work in the world. These people sought out the elders and then gave up the rest of their lives to live in that influence - not only monastics, but laymen living in the world as well. It is a radical move.

I am acquainted with an American woman, a convert to Orthodoxy, who heard of an elder in Russia. She was going through some difficult times and needed guidance and so decided to make the journey to Russia to ask this elder. She came to the monastery where he resided but for weeks was unable to get to see the elder. Finally on the day of a feast when the elder would most certainly be in the Church, she was there waiting for him, to catch him as he departed. She did in fact see the elder as he departed the Church and catching a glimpse of him, was touched and understood the great price that goes with following such a luminary. She knew that having asked the elder her question, believing as she did that he would speak according to the will of God, she would would then have no choice but to follow his direction (despite her own leanings or desires) She realized in that moment the great podvig of self denial that would await her in the words of the elder and at the same moment she realized her own inability to undertake the struggle. Without speaking to the elder at all, she returned home and continued working out her salvation according to her own strength under the guidance and direction of her pastor. I tell this story to emphasize that it is no light matter to go in search of a spiritual father and to place oneself under his direction. The journey to get to him itself may be difficult (like traveling to another country and then patiently enduring weeks of nothing - but this is a small struggle) and once having made the journey, the direction that you receive from your spiritual guide may then be beyond your strength to endure and falling upon the Rock you will be broken to pieces.

I am not convinced that even a small fraction of those who seek such a spiritual guide for themselves have even he smallest idea of what a great cost there will be in their own lives or whether or not they will even be able to endure that struggle. Better (IMO) to grow where one is planted than to seek out the spiritual heights.

I know that I have rambled on and on about this, but I guess I am hoping to give you all a little window into this part of my soul so that you understand where I am coming from in these discussions.

As I write I recall another very personal experience that I wish to share with you (if you are all sick of rambling, then now is the time just to skip over this and go on to the next post). I too, for many years sought for a spiritual father - especially as a priest, I thought that it was important for me to have some consistent spiritual direction. I did, in fact, find someone that I considered to be more spiritual than I (maybe not a spirit bearing elder - but still someone who could give me direction). I began confessing to this priest regularly and received from him the kind of understanding and instruction for which I had hoped. However, after a few years, all of sudden, he abandoned me leaving where he was and taking a whole new course in his life (I could not follow for many reasons, not least among them the fact that I was rector of a mission parish). I was hurt, abandoned, even "orphaned" and yet I had to continue. Throughout the next few years I sought out various confessors, but no one could really help in the same way. Then all of a sudden my old spiritual father returned - seemingly repentant for his actions - and I thought to resume our relationship (for I thought that he still had a depth of spiritual experience that would help me). During these next few years, my spiritual father went through many changes in his life and he remained faithful to our relationship. Then one day, when I called the monastery where he lived, to make my regular confession, he was not there. I called back and called back and still he was not available. Finally I spoke to the superior of the monastery who sadly told me that my spiritual father had again abandoned not only me but the monastery. Without so much as even hinting that anything was amiss or without even telling me that he could no longer be my spiritual father, he just left - and to this day, while I know others who have spoken to him, I have not had even so much as word directly. I bear no ill will and I do forgive him for being less than perfect - but still it was something from which I struggled mightily to recover. I sought out a spiritual father, someone that I thought could give me guidance in my spiritual life. I put a lot of faith and trust in him - and not once but twice that faith and trust was trampled underfoot. Yes, I still desire the guidance of a spiritual father, but now I am content to ask God to give me what I need and then to accept what He brings to me. Thus I am very very cautious about encouraging anyone to seek out a spiritual father and I guess this also speaks to my reservations that I express on this topic in this forum.

Fr David Moser

[Rick H.]

Dear Father David,

Thank you very much for this generous reply, you are possibly more familiar with 'the cry of the heart' as being a 'cri de coeur,' or "a deeply-felt, passionate request or complaint."

Thank you also for keeping this on a practical level, I think it is possible that this conversation is speaking volumes to others, as well as myself.

And, with that in mind, let's just finish up with this and grind it out all the way now where the rubber meets the road please.

Based on my experience in my neck of the woods, and based on my internet experience, and reading of current materials, I have a strong sense that there are many Orthodox who *are* taking a spritual path and are participating in some of the practices that we read about in the writing of the saints. I do not sense that this is so that these can be "special;" but, I sense a genuine longing, desire, and in many cases a strong compulsion to follow this path. I sense this as being a very genuine endeavor. And, it also appears that these people would agree with you! These people are telling me and putting into writing that there are not enough competent spiritual directors available. But, they are going ahead and participating in the Jesus Prayer, as well as other spiritual practices *without* the permission of a spiritual director.

And, things seem to be going very well, especially as an appeal is made by some of these to the writings of the saints who tell us how to proceed when there is not a spiritual director available.

But, now I want to try to get away from all this "he said she said" type of thing which is very ambiguous in itself. And, speak to what we see even here on this monachos site very frankly. While, I think we are all in agreement about the present state of spritual direction in the US, What are we to do with those who are in this above catagorey? Do we reject them as Orthodox Christians or consider them to be in error or deluded/derranged or in prelest (whatever that is)? And, I know it's not up to us (whoever that is) to do anything about 'them' . . . but I am using this a vehicle to move us along . . .

. . . these people are basically saying, I'm not going to fly to Russia or to Greece and ask someone if I can say the Jesus Prayer. They clearly are not 'rejecting' this sort of thing, but there is a clear 'turning from it.'

And, I see folks even on this site, the ones who dare to share some of their pracitices (many I have been informed would not do this); but, when some of these share from thier practice, there seems to always be another who will move in in the next post and say something like "but, of course without the permission of a 'genuine' spiritual director you cannot do that (either). In fact, it seems like this chorus of don't do this or don't do that, or you must not do this or you must not do that is sung each time one dares to share or even dares to discuss some things in their lives that the saints write about with such great beauty.

And, it's getting to be late in the day, and I realize that I am starting to ramble now (you must be contagious :) . . . so I will try to look for a place to land know.

But, hopefully you can draw something from my rambling to keep us moving forward. This really is a very important thing to many of 'us.' We are not participating in this conversation becuase we have nothing to do, or becuase we like to argue about spiritual/religous theroy. No far from it. We are attempting to follow the leading of the Holy Spirit in our personal lives. And, it seems like instead of finding helps/aids and direction from the church, we are finding barriers/hinderances and most of all mixed signals.

And, this seems to yeild the only other alternative as one of a radical individualism or as MCS has said last week a radical personalism as the means for true community (Dont tell MCS but I'm gonna steal that 'radical personalism' from him). And, maybe I am just foolin' myself when I think that there is any other way than *that.* Especially, in light of the different schools of thought that we have on this subject.

So I will end it here, again, with James 'cri de coeur,' when with all of the above in mind, he says very sincerely, No--Really, what are we supposed to do?

And, you have answered very well and most graciously above, so please don't think I am saying 'yeah,but' here--because I'm not. I appreciate and value your genourous post (yes 'A Generous Orthodoxy!') very much. I am just hoping to take this to the next level, if possible, and grind this out all the way. We are so close to being "on it" I don't want to pull up now, especially since we are being so plain spoken.

In Christ,

Rick

[Lourens]

Dear Mr Henry,

As usual, I jump in here where I should rather just lurk and learn, but I feel compelled to offer some thoughts for your consideration.

I have heard this wise yet simple answer given by a contemporary spiritual teacher, when asked, "How does one recognize a true spiritual teacher?":

"When what he tells you to do, works, he is a true teacher."

Also, today, I came across the following in the Book Deuteronomy, and it seemed right to point to it here, as a foundation for authenticity:


Deu 18:18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

Deu 18:19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

Deu 18:20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.

Deu 18:21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken?

Deu 18:22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

Quite clearly, then, an authentic spiritual guide is:

1. Someone "raised up" by the Lord, and therefore perfectly equipped to effect the Divine Purpose;

2. Someone who has God's words "in his mouth," because the word of the Lord dwells in him richly; and because the love of God has been poured forth in his heart, his mouth will overflow with its abundance.

3. Someone who clearly hears what God is saying, and, in obedience, hesitates not to express what God reveals. Hy shies not away from counsel that sits not well, nor does he sugar-coat God's word to make its reception more comfortable. God's word is pure, and is the Divine Love and Truth expressed.

4. Someone who speaks in the Name of the Lord, in full confidence that the Word of the Lord will not return void. Our Lord is a God Who vindicates Himself by vindicating His servants, showing them to be true.

Of course, there is the notion, "By their fruits you shall know them," but all too often, we look in the wrong place for fruit, as is often revealed in these threads about spiritual fathers: unfortunate parish priest are found to fall short of (romanticized ) expectations when their personalities are evaluated and they are found to be mere men, and not (spiritual) giants.

The place to look for fruit is with those they teach and guide. If what they counseled works, their guidance was true, and they are authentic, not because of their own strength, but because Divine Love and Wisdom resides in them.

It is my hope, sir, that my word has been firm enough to gain consideration, yet soft enough to turn away any wrath, should I have wasted anyone's time, not having contributed anything of substance to your search for a proper definition of an authentic spiritual guide.

Respectfully,

Learner

[James Blackstock]

I must pray about this. Actually, the truth for me at this point is that I am left with ambivelence....

[Maria Mahoney]

"As physical life is imparted from generation to generation in the same way too is spiritual life imparted. The Gerondas, being the possessor and bearer of this tradition, imparts it to his spiritual child and gives birth to him in Christ. The Gerondas imparts the tradition to him who wants to obtain it. The meaning of obedience concerning salvation rests on this point. I am obedient, not so that I will disappear, but in order to mortify my bad self and get rid of my own will and accept tradition; in order that Christ be formed within me. I am obedient so that I may be born. Obedience is also necessary because the danger of error lurks. That is why Abba Dorotheos writes: 'No one is more wretched, no one is more vulnerable than he who walks the path of God without anyone to guide him'. The same Father, interpreting the passage from the Proverbs: 'where there is no guidance, a people falls like leaves'(Prov. 11 . 14), says that the leaf is in the beginning green and fresh but then it fades and falls. It is despised and stepped upon. The same happens to the man who does not have a spiritual father. He soon withers and succumbs to his enemy. 'In the beginning he is full of fervour concerning fasting, vigil, practising hesychia, obedience, and other virtues; then his fervour fades away and, because he does not have a spiritual father who sustains, increases and excites this fervour, he withers away and falls and is subject to his enemies, who do whatever they want to him'. "

http://www.vic.com/~tscon/pelagia/htm/b01.en.a_night_in_the_desert_of_the_holy_mountain. 05.htm#er



A tree is known by its' fruit


42Either how canst thou say to thy brother, Brother, let me pull out the mote that is in thine eye, when thou thyself beholdest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou see clearly to pull out the mote that is in thy brother's eye.

43For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

44For every tree is known by his own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes.

Luke 6:42-44 (King James Version)




This is a very important point in finding an authentic spiritual father. The testing of his fruit (his life, the effect of his life on others) has to be rigorous and there can be no leniency due to our desire to have someone be our guide or due to denial. What makes an authentic spiritual father is that he is a Spirit-bearer... that is the criteria that must be met.

If we ignore the red flags, we will just end up following a self-proclaimed guru and end up being hurt.


13For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.

14And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

15Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

2 Corinthians 11:13-15 (King James Version)


In Christ,
Maria

[Christina]

I'm not sure what you mean about "cry of the heart" but let's assume that we are on the same page with this in that the question is not about objective criteria, but it is about finding such a person for one's own spiritual guidance. Am I closer?

I agree that there are fewer authentic spiritual guides/elders than there are priests in the US. I would say far fewer as a matter of fact. I would also say that many people do not find themselves in need of such a person in their daily lives and that the parish priest as pastor is sufficient for them where they are. For those who do need such a guide (or at least who think they do) then the very first thing to do is to pray and ask God to direct you to such a person. Then begin making visits to places where such elders are reported to be. This may mean making an extended pilgrimage to a monastery, to Russia, to Athos, or to wherever such a person might be located. God gives us what we need and therefore if we are seeking a more intense spiritual life, He will certainly provide for us that which we need. Let us look at the example of St Barsanuphios of Optina. Though a career military colonel, he sought such a life and traveled to Optina where he met with the elder Ambrose. He was sent back into the world to finish his duties as a military man and when the time came to retire he moved into the Optina skete and there learned from his elder. Or along the same lines the spiritual writer Sergei Nilus who moved himself and his wife into a house near Optina monastery so that he could draw from the well of the spiritual elders there. Or Nicholas Motovilov who sought out St Seraphim and who became his closest disciple, doing the Saint's work in the world. These people sought out the elders and then gave up the rest of their lives to live in that influence - not only monastics, but laymen living in the world as well. It is a radical move.

I am acquainted with an American woman, a convert to Orthodoxy, who heard of an elder in Russia. She was going through some difficult times and needed guidance and so decided to make the journey to Russia to ask this elder. She came to the monastery where he resided but for weeks was unable to get to see the elder. Finally on the day of a feast when the elder would most certainly be in the Church, she was there waiting for him, to catch him as he departed. She did in fact see the elder as he departed the Church and catching a glimpse of him, was touched and understood the great price that goes with following such a luminary. She knew that having asked the elder her question, believing as she did that he would speak according to the will of God, she would would then have no choice but to follow his direction (despite her own leanings or desires) She realized in that moment the great podvig of self denial that would await her in the words of the elder and at the same moment she realized her own inability to undertake the struggle. Without speaking to the elder at all, she returned home and continued working out her salvation according to her own strength under the guidance and direction of her pastor. I tell this story to emphasize that it is no light matter to go in search of a spiritual father and to place oneself under his direction. The journey to get to him itself may be difficult (like traveling to another country and then patiently enduring weeks of nothing - but this is a small struggle) and once having made the journey, the direction that you receive from your spiritual guide may then be beyond your strength to endure and falling upon the Rock you will be broken to pieces.

I am not convinced that even a small fraction of those who seek such a spiritual guide for themselves have even he smallest idea of what a great cost there will be in their own lives or whether or not they will even be able to endure that struggle. Better (IMO) to grow where one is planted than to seek out the spiritual heights.

I know that I have rambled on and on about this, but I guess I am hoping to give you all a little window into this part of my soul so that you understand where I am coming from in these discussions.

As I write I recall another very personal experience that I wish to share with you (if you are all sick of rambling, then now is the time just to skip over this and go on to the next post). I too, for many years sought for a spiritual father - especially as a priest, I thought that it was important for me to have some consistent spiritual direction. I did, in fact, find someone that I considered to be more spiritual than I (maybe not a spirit bearing elder - but still someone who could give me direction). I began confessing to this priest regularly and received from him the kind of understanding and instruction for which I had hoped. However, after a few years, all of sudden, he abandoned me leaving where he was and taking a whole new course in his life (I could not follow for many reasons, not least among them the fact that I was rector of a mission parish). I was hurt, abandoned, even "orphaned" and yet I had to continue. Throughout the next few years I sought out various confessors, but no one could really help in the same way. Then all of a sudden my old spiritual father returned - seemingly repentant for his actions - and I thought to resume our relationship (for I thought that he still had a depth of spiritual experience that would help me). During these next few years, my spiritual father went through many changes in his life and he remained faithful to our relationship. Then one day, when I called the monastery where he lived, to make my regular confession, he was not there. I called back and called back and still he was not available. Finally I spoke to the superior of the monastery who sadly told me that my spiritual father had again abandoned not only me but the monastery. Without so much as even hinting that anything was amiss or without even telling me that he could no longer be my spiritual father, he just left - and to this day, while I know others who have spoken to him, I have not had even so much as word directly. I bear no ill will and I do forgive him for being less than perfect - but still it was something from which I struggled mightily to recover. I sought out a spiritual father, someone that I thought could give me guidance in my spiritual life. I put a lot of faith and trust in him - and not once but twice that faith and trust was trampled underfoot. Yes, I still desire the guidance of a spiritual father, but now I am content to ask God to give me what I need and then to accept what He brings to me. Thus I am very very cautious about encouraging anyone to seek out a spiritual father and I guess this also speaks to my reservations that I express on this topic in this forum.

Fr David Moser

Fr. Moser,

Your words have truly blessed me!

A question . . . my sf is a monk and is the one in which I was "planted" with. The issue I am having right now is trust and peace, which do not exist in my relationship at the moment. I very much feel I need spiritual guidance, but do not trust he can guide me. I do not know whether it is my own ego, my own sins that have caused this rift. Because he is a monk, does that qualify him to guide me truthfully?

[Michael Stickles]

This is Mike's wife not Mike and I take full responsibility for any controversial content. The opinions represented here do not necessarily represent the opinions of the owner of this account. :)

In Christ, Anna


but now I am content to ask God to give me what I need and then to accept what He brings to me.
This seems to me the essence of the whole debate -for God to get us to this point. After all what is our life in Christ if not a life of faith.



While, I think we are all in agreement about the present state of spritual direction in the US, What are we to do with those who are in this above catagorey?


Well, isn't God a Father to the fatherless? When I read the monastic literature and see the emphasis on spiritual guidance I have often wondered about how transferable this is to those of us living in the world (but hopefully not of the world), and if it is quite so needful. If we look at things in context, the first thing I note about a monastery is that it is in a sense an artificial atmosphere. One needs someone to cut off one's will to in a monastery, but in the world one is constantly confronted with the need to cut off one's will just by living -there is the needs of family, the boss, the varied circumstances that afflict one from day to day that constantly give one the oppertunity of responding in a selfless and Christ like manner. These circumstances and people are constantly confronting us with the need and the oppertunity to 'become the slave of all'

Also, the parent dealing with their child, the employee dealing with their boss or fellow employees is not likely to be deluded about whether or not they have reached some spiritual state of passionless since they are constantly finding themselves in situations to test them. People living in the world have their own reactions as a real indicator to tell them the truth about themselves. For the monk who is dealing primarily with the inner life only, it is easier to enter into delusion about one's state. They need more guidance and more of a check on themselves.

So maybe it is right to realize that for those living in the world God Himself, through our circumstances and the people He puts into our lives is constantly acting as a Father to us. He has much more oppertunity to act upon us directly without the need of acting through a spiritual father. When the need arises for more then this no doubt He will provide then also. I had a friend from the Parish say to me the other day - "After you have been here awhile, you stop asking so many questions and just learn to lean into the Church" and In regards to this issue, what is a spiritual father except one small aspect of God's manifest providence in the bigger life of the Church?

Also, what the charismatic Fathers do, they do for all whether we are under their direct guidance or not, at least that is what seems to me in the teaching of St. Silouan on prayer for the world. I have often wondered who is up there on Mt. Athos praying for us today.

From Enlargment of the Heart Arch. Zacharias
"Consequently, as he accomplishes his service, the spiritual father breaks the closed circle of his own individualism; his being is expanded, and he bears within himself the life of the whole human race..."
As in our consideration of monasticism, and more particularly in the ascetic effort of obedience, the monk learns gradually to bear within himself the life of all the brotherhood, and eventually the life of the whole world and so we are, if we could only have the faith to see it, under the guidance of the spiritual fathers of the Church. It is just that their prayer for us may be answered by hands or mouths other then their own.

[Christina]

It is just that their prayer for us may be answered by hands or mouths other then their own.

. . . or keyboard :)

hugs to you, Anna!

[Christopher]

Prayer to Find a True Living [Spirit-filled] Spiritual Father by Saint Symeon the New Theologian:

"O Lord, who desirest not the death of a sinner but that he should turn and live, Thou who didst come down to earth in order to restore life to those lying dead through sin and in order to make them worthy of seeing Thee the true Light as far as that is possible to man, send me a man who knows Thee, so that in serving him and subjecting myself to him with all my strength, as to Thee, and in doing Thy will in his, I may please Thee the only true God, and so that even I, a sinner, may be worthy of Thy Reign and Rule of Glory. AMEN."

[Maria Mahoney]

Someone may have already posted this link... but just in case it hasn't been posted yet:

Obedience and the Layman - by Hieromonk Ambrose (Young)
(http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/layobedience.aspx)

[Owen Jones]

Yes, I still desire the guidance of a spiritual father, but now I am content to ask God to give me what I need and then to accept what He brings to me. Thus I am very very cautious about encouraging anyone to seek out a spiritual father and I guess this also speaks to my reservations that I express on this topic in this forum.


Thank you, Father, for some very wise direction. I would only add that even someone who is disturbed can offer me good spiritual direction. I do think that there is far too much anxiety these days about having a spiritual father. Be attentive at all times and listen, and God will work through people to give us the spiritual direction we all need.

[Ken McRae]

Well, isn't God a Father to the fatherless? When I read the monastic literature and see the emphasis on spiritual guidance I have often wondered about how transferable this is to those of us living in the world (but hopefully not of the world), and if it is quite so needful.

This is a difficult subject, admitedly, and so I approach it with some trepidation, understandably. Where to begin, though? It is true, of course, as you say, that God is a Father to the fatherless; but we ought not to interpret this as meaning that we have no need of spiritual fathers in Christ to navigate or guide us through the rocky waters of life. The Heavenly Father has appointed a divine hierarchy for our salvation, and ordered things such that lesser lights are to be illuminated by greater lights. His light descends to us through that divine hierarchy of lights. It is of no avail to us to try and bypass that divine order, as though we had no need of it. Yes, he is our Father and in His light we shall see the light, but only if we assume our proper place within that divine hierarchy and order.

With regard to our being "not of this world," I believe it is the mind of the fathers that few actually ever attain to that state on their own, without spiritual direction from the wise in Christ. We remain "of this world" so long as we are enslaved by the passions: "For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world (1 Jn 2:16)." Does "the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life" still reign in us? If it does, then we are still "of this world," according to the Theologian. Blind men and women, unable to guide ourselves, let alone others, out of the world.

Jer. 17:9-10 "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings."

1 Cor. 2:9-16 "As it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ."

What do the above scripture passages teach us? 1) That the fallen heart of man is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked. That is to say, it is enslaved to all the passions. 2) That none can search it out and know it thoroughly, but the Lord himself and all those of his servants who have acquired His mind and Spirit. 3) That it is necessary for us to turn to those who have acquired "the mind of Christ" for spiritual instruction and direction in the true gnosis, or hidden things of God, and especially that which pertains to our own spiritual case and condition.


If we look at things in context, the first thing I note about a monastery is that it is in a sense an artificial atmosphere.

This is true, of course. Others have likened the monastery to a greenhouse. Greenhouses have their disadvantages, as well as their advantages. According to the wisdom of the fathers, though, the advantages far outweigh the disadvantages. If the Church is a hospital, then these spiritual greenhouses can be likened, in a way, unto its intensive care units.

Let us not be deceived, however, into thinking that the world does not exist within those spiritual greenhouses; for the spirit of the world exists in the heart(s) of all sinful men and women; whether living in spiritual greenhouses or not. It is an easy thing to forget the world, or to root it out of the heart. In the vast majority of cases, it cannot be done without intensive care.


One needs someone to cut off one's will to in a monastery, but in the world one is constantly confronted with the need to cut off one's will just by living -there is the needs of family, the boss, the varied circumstances that afflict one from day to day that constantly give one the oppertunity of responding in a selfless and Christ like manner. These circumstances and people are constantly confronting us with the need and the oppertunity to 'become the slave of all'

Forgive me, please, but I would like to quote St. Ignatius Brianchaninov at length here, as it appears to address several of your concerns. The following is quoted from his treatise entitled The Arena:

" ... a Spirit-bearing guide" (is one) "who by the will of the Spirit can mortify the fallen will of the person subject to him in the Lord, and can mortify all the passions as well. Man's fall and corrupt will implies a tendency to all the passions. It is obvious that the mortification of a fallen will which is effected so sublimely and victoriously by the will of the Spirit of God cannot be accomplished by a director's fallen will when the director himself is still enslaved to the passions.

" 'If you wish to renounce the world and learn the life of the Gospel,' said St. Symeon the New Theologian to the monks of his time, 'do not surrender (entrust) yourself to an inexperienced or passionate master, lest instead of the life of the Gospel you learn a diabolic life. For the teaching of good teachers is good, while the teaching of bad teachers is bad. Bad seeds invariably produce bad fruits. Every blind man who undertakes to guide others is a deceiver or quack, and those who follow him are cast into the pit of distruction according to the word of the Lord, 'If a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into the whole (Mt. 15:14).'

"Those elders who take upon themselves the role - we use this unpleasant word which properly belongs to the language of the world in order to explain more exactly a matter which is essentially nothing less than soul-destroying acting and the most deplorable comedy! - elders who take upon themselves the role of the ancient holy Elders without having their spiritual gifts should know that their very intention, their very thoughts and ideas concerning the great monastic activity of obedience, are false; let them know that their very outlook or way of thinking, their reason or understanding, and their knowledge are self-deception and diabolic delusion which cannot fail to give birth to a corresponding fruit in the person guided by them. Their wrong and defective attitude can only for a time remain unnoticed by the inexperienced beginner under their direction, if this beginner has but a little understanding and occupies himself with holy reading with the pure intention of finding salvation. In due time it is bound to be discovered, and this unpleasant discovery will lead to a most unpleasant seperation, and to the spiritual derangement and confusion of both.

"It is a terrible business, out of self-opinion and on one's own authority, to take upon oneself duties which can be carried out only by order of the Holy Spirit and by action of the Spirit. It is a terrible thing to pretend to be a vessel of the Holy Spirit when all the while relations with satan have not been broken and the vessel is still being defiled by the action of satan! It is disastrous both for oneself and one's neighbour; it is criminal in God's sight, blasphemous." [End of Quote] ( The Arena, p. 43-45)

Several points of observation arise from the above, but I merely wish to highlight a few: 1) That to be enslaved to the passions is, in some real sense, to be spiritually blind. 2) That the blind are not able to guide themselves, let alone others; but need a seeing guide, or one that is not blind like themselves. 3) That it is a terrible business, leading to a disastrous end, for us to attempt to guide ourselves.


Also, the parent dealing with their child, the employee dealing with their boss or fellow employees is not likely to be deluded about whether or not they have reached some spiritual state of passionless since they are constantly finding themselves in situations to test them. People living in the world have their own reactions as a real indicator to tell them the truth about themselves. For the monk who is dealing primarily with the inner life only, it is easier to enter into delusion about one's state. They need more guidance and more of a check on themselves.

To assume it is easier for monks to fall into prelest, than it is for us who live in the world, does not appear quite correct to me. It does not take into sufficient account, I feel, the deceitfulness and desperate wickedness of the fallen heart, according to the word of the Prophet: "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings." (Jer. 17:9-10)


So maybe it is right to realize that for those living in the world God Himself, through our circumstances and the people He puts into our lives is constantly acting as a Father to us. He has much more oppertunity to act upon us directly without the need of acting through a spiritual father. When the need arises for more then this no doubt He will provide then also. I had a friend from the Parish say to me the other day - "After you have been here awhile, you stop asking so many questions and just learn to lean into the Church" and In regards to this issue, what is a spiritual father except one small aspect of God's manifest providence in the bigger life of the Church?

In one of his letters, St. Symeon the New Theologian speaks of the providence of God in relation to the "institution" of spiritual fatherhood. He tells us that spiritual fatherhood, in the beginning, was the proper domain of the bishops of the Church alone. St. Paul attests to this reality in the following passage:

"I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved sons I warn you. For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel. Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me. For this cause have I sent unto you Timotheus, who is my beloved son, and faithful in the Lord, who shall bring you into remembrance of my ways which be in Christ, as I teach every where in every church. (1 Cor. 4:14-17)

However, in time this duty or responsibility was delegated to the local priests; and still later, to the monks, again out of practical necessity. The point I wish us to observe, though, is that the "institution" of spiritual fatherhood has always existed within the Church. So, you see, it is not good enough for us to say that God is our spiritual father, and that we need none other but Him alone. That is the spirit of Protestantism, and contrary to the clearly revealed will of God, in both Scripture and Tradition. However, how each man and woman works this out in our times is ultimately between God and them. And while I personally find it difficult (at present) to accept the view of St. Ignatius Brianchaninov, in its fullness, regarding the "institution" of Spirit-bearing elders in our own times, there is no doubt of his correctness in regard to the need to adapt to our own times.


... that is what seems to me in the teaching of St. Silouan on prayer ...


From St. Silouan the Athonite:

Prayer preserves a man from sin, for the prayerful mind is intent on God and in humbleness of spirit stands before the face of the Lord, Who knoweth the soul of him who prays.

But the novice naturally needs a guide, for until the advent of the grace of the Holy Spirit the soul is involved in fierce struggle with her foes and is unable to disentangle herself if the enemy offer her his delights. Only the man with experience of the grace of the Holy Spirit can understand this. He who has tasted of the Holy Spirit recognizes the taste of grace.

The man who sets out without guidance to engage in prayer (imagining in his arrogance that he can learn to pray from books), and will not go to a spiritual director is already half beguiled. But the Lord succours the man who is humble, and if there be no experienced guide, and he turns to the confessor he finds, the Lord will watch over him for his humility. ( Wisdom from Mt. Athos, p. 79)

Note especially these words of St. Silouan: "Imagining in his arrogance that he can learn to pray from books." What does he mean by "books?" That is the question I wish to ask at this point. For me, the term is inclusive, applying to all books; including the Book of Nature, the Book of Holy Scripture, the Book of Divine Providence, and the Book of Conscience itself.

[Mary]

Because he is a monk, does that qualify him to guide me truthfully?

A person isn't qualified or disqualified because he's a monk. It depends, I think, on what kind of monk. I have depended a great deal on my friend, who is a monk, and he's been quite capable of guiding me.

Mary.

[Ken McRae]

Others have likened the monastery to a greenhouse. Greenhouses have their disadvantages, as well as their advantages. According to the wisdom of the fathers, though, the advantages far outweigh the disadvantages. If the Church is a hospital, then these spiritual greenhouses can be likened, in a way, unto its intensive care units.

Let us not be deceived, however, into thinking that the world does not exist within those spiritual greenhouses; for the spirit of the world exists in the heart(s) of all sinful men and women; whether living in spiritual greenhouses or not. It is an easy thing to forget the world, or to root it out of the heart. In the vast majority of cases, it cannot be done without intensive care.

Forgive me, but I jost noticed a grievous omission in the above. In the second last sentence, of the second paragraph quoted immediately above, should read like this: "It is not an easy thing to forget the world, or to root it out of the heart. In the vast majority of cases, it cannot be done without intensive care."

[Marie C.]

God gave me a personal teaching on this subject. So I thought to contribute to this thread.

God uses all people as authentic spiritual guides for us. We can only see this if we see Christ in people. At times we must consider, especially when we believe that a person is wrong, that this is actually God's way of teaching us in an apophatic manner.

For me, it is key to understand that whatever and whomever God has placed before me is that which I truly need. We must take the good with the bad, else we will not understand the difference and will likely not get the teaching which God is leading us to.

In the end we will find ourselves confessing, that the truth is that God gave us what we "needed" not what we "wanted'. And what we need is more important than what we want. As God meets our every need and knows that better than we do.

I suppose my question would be, how would we really know, an "authentic" spiritual guide, from anyone else.
Ultimately we must accept that which God gives us in obedience. God will move us further only then. For even our suffering is for His glory.

Rom 8:18 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Rom&chapter=8&verse=18&version=kjv#18)¶For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time [are] not worthy [to be compared] with the glory which shall be revealed in us.


Father David you made some excellent points from the perspective of a parish priest and the difficult tasks that involves.

[Mary]

In the end we will find ourselves confessing, that the truth is that God gave us what we "needed" not what we "wanted'. And what we need is more important than what we want. As God meets our every need and knows that better than we do.

I suppose my question would be, how would we really know, an "authentic" spiritual guide, from anyone else.
Ultimately we must accept that which God gives us in obedience. God will move us further only then. For even our suffering is for His glory.


Marie,

That's sort of how I worked out the courage to become orthodox. Looking back on my life, seeing how God had continued to guide me even during the times when seeking His will was not my priority... it just wouldn't be consistent with what I knew to be true about Him, if He left me on my own at a time when I was actually serious about seeking Him.

I also keep repeating to myself, that I have everything I need for the salvation of my soul. After all, He's the one doing the healing, and He knows what I need. I don't even know myself, how can I know what needs to be done in order for me to be healed?

Sort of like going to a doctor, and once you get the diagnosis, you walk out saying: Thanks doc. Now I'll go do the research and heal myself.

Doesn't work that way with our physical bodies that we can see and feel. How much less do we know about our souls! So, whatever parish we're attending, whether by choice or no choice, God is capable of meeting our needs through that parish, and through that priest, however imperfect they may be. I know, easy for me to say, because I have a good priest, and a good parish. But looking at it through protestant eyes, it was the wrong parish to have chosen to attend.

God sees things differently. I'm glad He does. =)

In Christ,
Mary.

[Marie C.]

Marie,

That's sort of how I worked out the courage to become orthodox. Looking back on my life, seeing how God had continued to guide me even during the times when seeking His will was not my priority... it just wouldn't be consistent with what I knew to be true about Him, if He left me on my own at a time when I was actually serious about seeking Him.

I also keep repeating to myself, that I have everything I need for the salvation of my soul. After all, He's the one doing the healing, and He knows what I need. I don't even know myself, how can I know what needs to be done in order for me to be healed?

Sort of like going to a doctor, and once you get the diagnosis, you walk out saying: Thanks doc. Now I'll go do the research and heal myself.

Doesn't work that way with our physical bodies that we can see and feel. How much less do we know about our souls! So, whatever parish we're attending, whether by choice or no choice, God is capable of meeting our needs through that parish, and through that priest, however imperfect they may be. I know, easy for me to say, because I have a good priest, and a good parish. But looking at it through protestant eyes, it was the wrong parish to have chosen to attend.

God sees things differently. I'm glad He does. =)

In Christ,
Mary.

Mary, I can relate to your post very well. God led me for a long time in the "desert" so to speak, feeling for Him.

All my human passions were sure I was on the right path. But alas, my heart said otherwise. I continually cried out to Him for help.

I am finally in His Church. But there was much deception before that happened. The evangelicals caught my eye first, as they are everywhere. Then I found a church that looked Orthodox and even held the name, but it too was deception of the eyes. God did use them however, in that the more I questioned them and they had me read books, the more God showed me the truth. What they thought upheld their path actually defied it.

God overcomes all if one looks only to Him.