Orthodoxy and hypnosis

[Maria Mahoney]

Well, I'm almost afraid to ask... but enquiring minds want to know... I could not find much on the internet concerning the matter. I am glad to have this opportunity to address this subject on this forum to Priests, psychiatrists, psychologists, scholars, and the spiritually minded....

How exactly should an Orthodox Christian approach the subject of hypnosis?

From what I understand, the medical community acknowledges it as a useful, valuable, and valid theraputic tool.

Well, I leave it open to the forum.

In Christ,
Maria

[Angie]

Dear Maria,

I know for a fact it goes against our Orthodox faith to be under hypnosis. Even for medical reasons etc it is forbidden to allow someone to hypnotise you. I hope this helps.

In Christ
Angela+++

[Rick H.]

Dear Maria,

I do not think I have any input on this at the present time as it relates to hypnosis as meditation; however, I will share the following article as food for thought:



..:: Hypnosis & Faith (http://www.hypnosisandfaith.com/faith.php)


This article begins with the following (photo is of author):




http://www.hypnosisandfaith.com/images/Father-Nicolas.jpg

When I first encountered hypnosis, I wondered if this would come into conflict with my faith as an ordained minister within the Eastern Orthodox Church. I found out that hypnosis is neither anti-religious nor pro-religious. It can be used for good or bad depending on the hypnotist and his subject: most religious groups accept the proper ethical use of hypnosis for helping people.


In Christ,
Rick

[Father David Moser]

I know for a fact it goes against our Orthodox faith to be under hypnosis. Even for medical reasons etc it is forbidden to allow someone to hypnotise you. I hope this helps.

I would be interested in hearing how it is you know this "for a fact". Were you told by someone? did you read it somewhere? is this from your own experience with hypnosis?

From my past experience with hypnosis (I received training in hypnosis and hypnotherapy as a part of my graduate school program in Psychology) combined with my experience and reading as an Orthodox priest I have come to the conclusion that hypnosis is nothing more than simply a related state of highly focused attention. I would venture to guess that nearly every adult who has driven an automobile on a long trip or who has sat for more than an hour at a time in front of a television has probably experienced a form of a hypnotic state.

How does this all relate to Orthodoxy? Think of the heart as a "house" where the "nous" resides. This house has doors and windows (eg. the senses) which we must guard to keep the nous pure. In the hypnotic state, all the attention is focused on a single door or window and the others are left unattended. This extreme focus of attention enables the person to pour all of their conscious resources on a single problem - which is good - but it also leaves the soul open to all kind of random (or not so random) suggestions to be implanted - which is not so good.

It is true that hypnosis in and of itself is nothing evil or diabolic -but it is a state in which it is impossible to be vigilant and watchful, which is something that is essential to the guarding of the soul. Hypnosis is, therefore, in my experience, one of those things which may be useful at times for certain things - but it is generally not profitable for the spiritual welfare of an Orthodox Christian.

Fr David Moser

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Fr David wrote:


From my past experience with hypnosis (I received training in hypnosis and hypnotherapy as a part of my graduate school program in Psychology) combined with my experience and reading as an Orthodox priest I have come to the conclusion that hypnosis is nothing more than simply a related state of highly focused attention. I would venture to guess that nearly every adult who has driven an automobile on a long trip or who has sat for more than an hour at a time in front of a television has probably experienced a form of a hypnotic state.

Thanks for this information Father. As someone who knows very little about this however could you explain whether the hypnosis which is used as a type of entertainment as part of a show is the same as the method of hypnosis you describe above? Perhaps the explanation is already given in what you write but I have never understood what really goes on in these sessions.

The situations seem genuine enough. But what accounts for people having no memory of what they did?

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Father David Moser]

could you explain whether the hypnosis which is used as a type of entertainment as part of a show is the same as the method of hypnosis you describe above? ... But what accounts for people having no memory of what they did?

2nd question first. Memory is a function of attention. If we are not "attending" to something, then we do not remember it. This translates into the lack of memory in hypnosis very easily. All of the attention is focused on the action going on in the hypnotic state and none of the attention is "tasked" to memory, thus the memory is not stored in an easily retrievable manner and appears to be absent.

1st question. Hypnosis as "entertainment" may well be genuine "hypnosis" but is in fact more of a "social contract" in which the "hypnostist" is given by the subject all the social responsibility for his actions. Thus the subject can act the fool and not have to bear the social consequences for what he has said or done. My instructor did not consider this to be "real" hypnosis (whatever that is) but rather simply a mechanism by which the "subject" can do and say whatever he wants in public without risk.

Let me also mention here that during the entire time of a "hypnotic state" the subject is indeed in full control of their will and is not under any external coercion. Thus while their inhibitions or sense of responsibility or resistance to suggestion may be lowered - in the end the subject chooses to go along with the suggestion of the hypnotist.

Another interesting note - any qualified hypnotherapist will tell you that all hypnotism is self-hypnotism. It is a state that we enter of our own accord and by our own mental effort. The hypnotist is there only as a facilitator to this natural process and while "under" the hypnotist acts simply as a source of suggestion. A subject can "awaken" from his hypnotic state anytime he wants/chooses

But again, for the Orthodox Christian, we always are responsible before God for all our actions and all our words. There is no time when we can say "The devil made me do it" or "The hypnotist made me do it" or "Someone else made me do it" - because we have free will and that cannot be taken from us. If we surrender our will to anyone, it should be into the hands of a spiritual elder (see also the thread on "authentic spiritual guides (http://www.monachos.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3977)") of great experience and unquestionable Orthodoxy - and then even that remains a willing and aware submission for the purpose of the salvation of the soul (not for the amusement of the crowd).

Fr David Moser

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Very interesting. Thanks.

[Maria Mahoney]

Dear Fr. David, Fr. Raphael, Angela, & Rick,

Thank you for your most helpful and encouraging posts! I hope others will contribute more to this thread as well in the future.

In my struggle against my passions ... and especially my most difficult and persistent passion, I do use self-hypnosis combined with the Jesus Prayer. I find that using the relaxation methods employed in self-hypnosis helps me to readjust my focus, calm down, and move into another state of consciousness; Then I will begin the Prayer.

I found one night I was dreaming one of those dreams where I was not sure if I was awake or asleep, but I was being overcome by my passion, but even in my dreams I was able to combat my passion using this method. I mean I began the process even in my dream.

In Christ,
Maria

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

There is a very interesting question here about passion and struggle. To what degree do we subvert God's purpose for us if we do not go through the struggle which our passions normally entail? To what extent do we substitute the tangible solution for the intangible?

I have no clear answer- we normally advise our people to go to doctors etc. With the increasing availability of what seem like medical cures for the passions though we must focus on the way in which God leads us providentially towards salvation and of how much faith and uncertainty come into play in this.

We have been positively affected by the concept of curing as the aim of our life in the Church and no one would deny this. But I think we have to keep in mind like all descriptions this too is only an image or analogy of what God does with us. Modern medicine after all seeks for a kind of human certainty in method and effect which must be different from how we think of our life in Christ.

As medicine becomes more 'purpose driven' to what extent do we risk losing track of what is purposefully intangible in God's purposes for us?

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Owen Jones]

Hypnosis involves manipulation of the psyche by another and I think should be avoided by Orthodox people.

[Angie]

Dear Father Moser,

According to the Holy Scriptures the works of the Church Fathers of St John Krostandt we know how Hypnosis is dangerous and terrible. Elder Nectarius says "Hynosis is a terrible thing. Once people were afraid of this act, they were avoiding it, but now are carried away. The trouble is, that this knowledge enters our life under the cover of allegedly great benefit for mankind."

From the Optina Hermitage and it's time. Holy Trinity Monastery, Jordanville 1970 P562-63.

So my answer is still, it is wrong to meddle in such things.

In Christ
Angela+++

[Michael Stickles]

Angela,


According to the Holy Scriptures the works of the Church Fathers of St John Krostandt we know how Hypnosis is dangerous and terrible.

Not to put you on the spot, but where in the Scriptures or the Church Fathers is it said or implied that "Hypnosis is dangerous and terrible"?

I did some extensive online searching, but I can't find anyone prominent in Orthodoxy outside the Optina Elders who has made such a pronouncement. Most of the few things I was able to find are along the lines of what Father David has said. The references to the statements of the Optina Elders seem to equate all forms of hypnosis with psychic phenomena and magic, an equivalence I'm not sure is tenable.

That's not to say that the Optina Elders are wrong, but neither would I say that Father David is wrong; both, I'm sure, know far more than I do about hypnosis. However, based on what I've found so far it seems difficult to claim that there is as yet anything like an official "Orthodox position" on hypnosis. (I'll defer to the actual Orthodox members of the forum as to whether that's accurate)

[Father David Moser]

The references to the statements of the Optina Elders seem to equate all forms of hypnosis with psychic phenomena and magic, an equivalence I'm not sure is tenable.

As with all things, it is important not only to know what the fathers said, but also the context in which they spoke. During the time of the Optina elders, in Russia, as well as all through Europe, spiritism was all the rage. Seances were a popular social activity and hypnosis, newly popularized, was part of this spiritualistic phenomenon. Of course the Optina elders brought all of this together and condemned it - because it was all linked in the minds of the people of the time. Context is very important. At that time the 'context' of hypnosis was spiritualism - but that is no longer the case and thus we must now deal with both hypnosis and the "spiritualism" of our age (which is now called by such innocuous terms as "new age" etc) in the context of our time.

Fr David Moser

[Maria Mahoney]

To what degree do we subvert God's purpose for us if we do not go through the struggle which our passions normally entail? To what extent do we substitute the tangible solution for the intangible?


I see self-hypnosis more as one more tool to assist in my struggle... like fasting, giving alms, etc.. If I used it expecting some kind of magical cure all, I am sure I would be as disappointed as I would be if I thought fasting alone would be the answer to all my passions.


In Christ,
Maria

[Angie]

I am satisfied with what I have said. I would never feel good (spiritual wise of course) using Hypnosis. I will pray and as God wills.

In Christ
Angela+++

[Mourad Mankarios]

Dear Fr. David, Fr. Raphael, Angela, & Rick,

Thank you for your most helpful and encouraging posts! I hope others will contribute more to this thread as well in the future.

In my struggle against my passions ... and especially my most difficult and persistent passion, I do use self-hypnosis combined with the Jesus Prayer. I find that using the relaxation methods employed in self-hypnosis helps me to readjust my focus, calm down, and move into another state of consciousness; Then I will begin the Prayer.

I found one night I was dreaming one of those dreams where I was not sure if I was awake or asleep, but I was being overcome by my passion, but even in my dreams I was able to combat my passion using this method. I mean I began the process even in my dream.

In Christ,
Maria


Sounds like some kind of autogenic training. Perhaps you can tell us more precisely how you practice this as it may be of benefit to others here as well...

[Rick H.]

Dear All,





However, based on what I've found so far it seems difficult to claim that there is as yet anything like an official "Orthodox position" on hypnosis.




Mike, once again we are in your debt, this time for your research. With no evidence to the contrary, it appears your thesis stands as it relates to an official "Orthodox position."

However, I fully appreciate what you have expressed in your last post, Angela:




I am satisfied with what I have said. I would never feel good (spiritual wise of course) using Hypnosis. I will pray and as God wills.




As Father Jack Sparks has developed the concept "Each as is appropriate for oneself," as it relates to vehicles, sacraments, and tools (or anything spoken in the instrumental case) what is just right for one may be very wrong for another. And, as it relates to what Fr. Sparks is saying, either we believe this or we don't.

And, Maria, may I thank you for this balanced contribution:




If I used it expecting some kind of magical cure all, I am sure I would be as disappointed as I would be if I thought fasting alone would be the answer to all my passions.



you seem to have a way of bringing us back to the ground when we loose our center at times.

But, as I was sitting here just now reading through this thread for a second time it dawned on me that we are throwing the word hypnosis around without defining it. This word means different things to different people.

I will bet that there is not a high degree of real communication here . . . in fact, I am willing to bet my neighbors farm that many of the people here, who are reading this, may think of a man who looks like Snidely Whiplash (the villain from Dudley Do-Right) who dangles his pocket watch back and forth . . . back and forth . . . back and forth . . . and says slowly, you are getting very sleepy now (send Rick Henry $100.00) . . . very sleepy . . .(make checks and money orders payable to R.R. Henry) . . .

But, I don't think this has anything to do with what Maria is talking about here.

So, I am wondering now if anyone would have an example of the kind of self-hypnosis that a Christian may use as a tool/method to post as an example to clearly show what we are talking about?

At least I don't think we are talking about someone in a turban with Marty Feldman eyes putting us into a trance, and taking us on a magic carpet ride while making suggestions to us?

Yes, possibly an example of the type of self-hypnosis that we are talking about here, from a Christian perspective may help to bring so clarity for some, and to kick this discussion up a notch, so to say.

In Christ,
Rick

[Maria Mahoney]

The American Society of Clinical Hypnosis defines hypnosis this way:


"Definition of Hypnosis

Hypnosis is a state of inner absorption, concentration and focused attention. It is like using a magnifying glass to focus the rays of the sun and make them more powerful. Similarly, when our minds are concentrated and focused, we are able to use our minds more powerfully. Because hypnosis allows people to use more of their potential, learning self-hypnosis is the ultimate act of self-control."

The full text is at:

http://www.asch.net/genpubinfo.htm




A Definition Of Hypnosis
By Terry Watts

“Hypnosis is a state wherein the subconscious and conscious parts of the mind begin to work on the same concept at the same time without conflict.”

http://www.diviniti.demon.co.uk/definition.doc


In Christ,
Maria

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Any thoughts though as to what positive things and what warnings we should convey to our people should the question of hypnosis come up?

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Michael Stickles]

My own sense is that Father David's statement early in this thread is a good starting point for what could be conveyed:


It is true that hypnosis in and of itself is nothing evil or diabolic -but it is a state in which it is impossible to be vigilant and watchful, which is something that is essential to the guarding of the soul. Hypnosis is, therefore, in my experience, one of those things which may be useful at times for certain things - but it is generally not profitable for the spiritual welfare of an Orthodox Christian.

It seems from what I've read so far that we could loosely identify four broad types of hypnosis (obviously, they can overlap), each of which needs a slightly different response:

Psychic/Mediumistic: This would be the exception to Father David's statement, as this one would be evil and diabolic. Not that the person wielding this ability is necessarily consciously evil, but the two people I've known who had this ability tended to influence others to their harm. I would advise people to avoid them when possible, and resist their influence through prayer otherwise.

Entertainment: I have no personal experience with this type, but second-hand accounts I've heard corroborate Father David's mention that "their inhibitions or sense of responsibility or resistance to suggestion may be lowered"; some accounts mentioned people who would have violated their normal moral standards (for example, by allowing clothing to fall off, exposing themselves) had the hypnotist not stopped them. If I were to give someone advice regarding this type, it would be to avoid participating, and to pray for protection for those who do participate.

Clinical: Including both hypnotherapy, and law enforcement use. Again, no personal experience, but if I felt it necessary to undergo this type I would want to have someone I trusted present to uphold me in prayer during the whole time of the session, and would would want to uphold in prayer anyone I knew who was undergoing it.

Self-Hypnosis: I tried this way back in the past and failed at getting any benefit out of it, so I probably didn't understand the process well enough. But I would think that if you are going to be giving yourself suggestions in a self-hypnotized state, you'd want to have someone more mature (say, your spiritual father) review the suggestions beforehand to make sure you're not suggesting something with unintentioned harmful effects (this goes double for self-hypnosis tapes). And again, if you feel it necessary to use this, I'd advise having someone you trust uphold you in prayer while you're engaging in it; and if you know someone who uses this, I'd advise upholding them in prayer.

This pretty much summarizes my current personal attitude towards hypnotism, based on my reading and (limited) experience. I'm not at all claiming that this should be considered a "proper Orthodox understanding" of hypnotism, but I'm posting it in the hope that those with more maturity and experience than I might find something profitable in all this that could be useful for others.

In Christ,
Mike

[Maria Mahoney]

Perhaps you can tell us more precisely how you practice this as it may be of benefit to others here as well...

I have made a tape recording, which I listen to through headphones. The recording follows this general outline:

I. Introduction
II. Connecting mind/heart/breath
III. Progressive relaxation
IV. Going deeper
V. Inner Energy
VI. Prayers for: world/healing relationships
VII. Spiritual seed
VIII. Transition
IX. Inner Temple
In this part of the hypnosis I focus on the homily given to the nuns in
Kindling the Divine Spark by St. Theophan the Recluse:


"build your temple to the Lord so as to always have Him in you..clear a spot in your heart for the erection of the spiritual temple...this clearing is accomplished through repentance: uprooting and realizing ones own sins....On the cleared spot, dig and lay a foundation comprised of faith and a resolve to live according to faith...having laid such a foundation, raise the building, place stone upon stone, and bind them with the necessary elements, and direct everything according to the proposed plan and dimensions...the stones are various virtues which are practiced when and where opportunities present themselves...meekness, continence, patience, obedience, mercy, love of labor...these virtues, one added to another, are conducive to the growth of the structure of the inward temple...the binding cement is, on the one hand, energy coming from the sacraments of grace, without which everything of ours remains dry, unbinding, unstable; and on the other hand...love...the roof will consist of deep humility...what remains is to crown the building and raise a cross upon it...these two tasks will be accomplished by one action: devotion to the will of God, which is like a dome of good deeds, of self-denial and cross-bearing where upon our egotism is finally crucified....and thus you have a temple....but you are still outside this inward temple...you must enter within it...adorn it...sanctify and cense it...in order to worthily perform there holy sacraments...to offer oblations pleasing to God...For the Lord wants not only to be in you, but also to abide with you... enter in...now adorn the inward temple of the heart with good thoughts composed of deep conviction in the truths of faith and by related thoughts and dispositions...with thoughts about the Tri-Hypostatic God, His boundless perfection, creation, and providence, about the mystery of redemption and the whole economy of our salvation; about the future harmony of all...the sanctification of this temple is caused by the unwavering, constant beholding of God the Omnipotent.....these movements towards Him, the most sweet one, are the incense of the prayer of the heart, which rises like the morning mist or aromatic smoke to God....in such a way, within the fragrant temple of the heart there will also be performed spiritual sacrifice pleasing to God...This consists of offering to Him an awareness of your self-determination and freedom, expressed through painful falling before Him with a contrite and humble heart"

X. Affirmations
XI. Elevation to Divine Eros
XII. Jesus Prayer

Mourad, I won't post the whole thing here (it is about 45 minutes long), but I will message it to you.

In Christ,
Maria

[Owen Jones]

One of my concerns about hypnosis, which follows some of the definitions of this thread, is that it really is about self-absorption. The whole modern theory of the unconscious, which is what modern psychology and psychiatry are based on, predicates the psyche as a self-contained entity. In this self-contained entity, the unconscious rules and is the cause of neuroses. The unconscious is the locus of childhood trauma that has been repressed. The reason why the subconscious rules is due to the theory of repression. The conscious mind has repressed disturbing things from the past as a defense mechanism. But through repression, the result is obsessions and neuroses. The purpose of therapy is to bring the subconscious to the level of consciousness, the theory being that if you know why you are doing the things you are doing that are destructive, you won't do them anymore. If you stop repressing the subconscious mind, it will not longer govern your thoughts and behavior. And so hypnosis is seen as a tool in uncovering the unconscious mind.

Orthodoxy of course looks at obsessions and neuroses quite differently. This is, in fact, not something that was discovered by modern psychologists at all. If you look at John Cassian, and some of the recent quotes by Cassian on this site, you will see that the desert fathers knew all about obsessions and neuroses. But in their conception, they are caused by demonic influence. There may be traumatic experiences in the past, indeed, everyone has them going back to early childhood, but it is the demons that exploit them. So proper combat against the demons is the true path to psychological health, not an analytical understanding of why we do what we do. It is exhorcism of the demons and using the spiritual tools provided to us by the Church to defend against demonic temptation. Self-analysis is just another form of self-centeredness.

[Owen Jones]

Just to add one more point, modern psychiatry is not a scientific theory, it's an ideology. The best definition of an ideology I have seen is that you have a human controller. Wherever you have the idea of a human controller, you have an ideology. The foundational critique of psychiatry is found in "The Mind of the Moralist" by Philip Reiff. Unfortunately, Reiff was not a religious man and so once he has decimated psychiatry, he doesn't know what to do next. But after reading his book, it's hard to take psychiatry seriously.

[Maria Mahoney]

Dear Fr. David, Fr. Raphael, Owen, Angela, Rick, Mike, & Mourad,

Thank you for contributing to this thread... it is good to see that this topic is being addressed in such a thorough manner. It will be helpful for many people, as this is something people are confronted with in this day and age, and it is good to have this information. I hope there will be many more contributions forthcoming.

Thank you!

In Christ,
Maria

[Rick H.]

Dear Owen, Dear All,

Just like it does not take a great teacher to design a test that no one can pass, men like Reiff who seek to destroy the thinking (and in turn the value) of an entire field, and then leave nothing but a void in the wake are sometimes less than helpful at the end of the day.




It is exorcism of the demons and using the spiritual tools provided to us by the Church to defend against demonic temptation. Self-analysis is just another form of self-centeredness.



While I think the latter is very shortsighted, Cassian (the other Good Doctor) is a good reference here. I appreciate the way he prescribes very specific remedies for very specific afflictions. We have both a good precedent, and a good example of what you are saying in his work, On the Eight Vices.

And, once again as we consider 'tools provided to us by the Church' we are reminded of the concept developed by Father Jack Sparks, "Each as is appropriate for oneself." He did not initiate this, but he develops it in a helpful way.

In Christ,
Rick

[Maria Mahoney]

Dear Owen,

It seems what you are really talking about is psychoanalysis.


As a technique of psychotherapy, psychoanalysis seeks to discover connections among the unconscious components of patients' mental processes. The analyst's goal is to help liberate the patient from unexamined or unconscious barriers of transference and resistance, that is, past patterns of relating that are no longer serviceable or that inhibit freedom. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychoanalysis

Psychoanalysis would definitely be a form of self-absorption from what you describe. Perhaps it is my fault for heading my post "analysis", but, what I meant by "analysis", was actually an analysis, a break down of what I do in self-hypnosis. From what I see posted here about hypnosis, it does not seem to be much more than relaxing into another focus... which is helpful when someone is stuck in a passionate attack... at least, it has proven to be helpful to me (I really can't speak for anyone else). And then to begin to pray the Jesus Prayer which is a synergistic mode of combatting the demons. So that self-hypnosis becomes a tool in defending against the demonic temptation.



In Christ,
Maria

[Mourad Mankarios]

One of my concerns about hypnosis, which follows some of the definitions of this thread, is that it really is about self-absorption. The whole modern theory of the unconscious, which is what modern psychology and psychiatry are based on, predicates the psyche as a self-contained entity. In this self-contained entity, the unconscious rules and is the cause of neuroses. The unconscious is the locus of childhood trauma that has been repressed. The reason why the subconscious rules is due to the theory of repression. The conscious mind has repressed disturbing things from the past as a defense mechanism. But through repression, the result is obsessions and neuroses. The purpose of therapy is to bring the subconscious to the level of consciousness, the theory being that if you know why you are doing the things you are doing that are destructive, you won't do them anymore. If you stop repressing the subconscious mind, it will not longer govern your thoughts and behavior. And so hypnosis is seen as a tool in uncovering the unconscious mind.

Orthodoxy of course looks at obsessions and neuroses quite differently. This is, in fact, not something that was discovered by modern psychologists at all. If you look at John Cassian, and some of the recent quotes by Cassian on this site, you will see that the desert fathers knew all about obsessions and neuroses. But in their conception, they are caused by demonic influence. There may be traumatic experiences in the past, indeed, everyone has them going back to early childhood, but it is the demons that exploit them. So proper combat against the demons is the true path to psychological health, not an analytical understanding of why we do what we do. It is exhorcism of the demons and using the spiritual tools provided to us by the Church to defend against demonic temptation. Self-analysis is just another form of self-centeredness.

Dear Owen,

I don't think I'd refer to such tools as a form of self-absorption but rather as a kind of self-awareness. I think it is important to note that ultimately the purpose of such tools is to become aware of the hindrances and difficulties in one's life and the root of these and so to eliminate these. As such I would think that such a practice would be in line with Orthodox thought which encourages the individual to reflect on their own sin, to remember the loving Lord who died to redeem them from the such and to weep over these. We know that Abba Arsanius wept constantly over his sins until even his eye-lashes had fallen out. Such a practice of self-awareness is also rooted within the mysteries of the church in such sacraments as repentance and spiritual guidance. One is also to be aware of their passions and weaknesses and to know the root of these through which the demons attack us as you have said and thus eliminate them. This is also in the Biblical tradition where David says that his sin is ever before him.

Therefore, one of the spiritual tools the church itself provides us with is self-awareness, and I believe that the entire field of counselling, hypnosis and psychiatry is the modern manifestation of really an ancient practice of the church.

Furthermore, I really cannot understand how you can so easily dismiss an entire field which has helped so many people overcome difficulties in their lives, be able to reach for opportunities, facilitate mediation and cooperation, lead healthier lives and be happier individuals, families and communities.

[Rick H.]

As such I would think that such a practice would be in line with Orthodox thought which encourages the individual to reflect on their own sin . . .




Yes, Paul says dokimaso! Examine yourselves!




Examine yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves!

Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you-- unless indeed you fail the test?

2 Cor 13:5


In Christ,
Rick

[Kusanagi]

I believe Fr Seraphim Rose in his book the soul after death mentions hypnosy is bad as the person is subjected to outside influence by the hypnotiser.

[David M.]

I had tried to post a more detailed response but wasn't logged in properly or something and it all disappeared, and I don't have the wherewithal to replicate it so...I will just sum up : )

If hypnosis (either by self or by a spiritual father, priest, or other well trusted spiritual mentor) can actually aid us in the healing of our passions without doing any harm (either by allowing demonic influence or supplanting God's design for our healing) then I think that it should be embraced.

So here is the challenge, can we show that hypnosis as prescribed above:
A) does in fact aid us in the healing of our passions, and
B) does NOT cause us harm by allowing demonic influence or supplanting God's design for our healing

[Nina]

Yes, Paul says dokimaso! Examine yourselves!


In Christ,
Rick

Dokimasete!

[Paul Cowan]

So here is the challenge, can we show that hypnosis as prescribed above:
A) does in fact aid us in the healing of our passions, and
B) does NOT cause us harm by allowing demonic influence or supplanting God's design for our healing

Maybe I just have a problem with hypnosis being/sounding too new age. I am sure it is mellinia old, but you know what I mean. I think hypnosis is dangerous and potentially harmful. I don't know any spiritual father/mentor/elder that would condone or perform hypnosis. Father David please correct me. You are our expert here on this.

Instead of going to those outside the church for healing our passions or introducing potential demonic influence, why not do what works? The Jesus Prayer DOES work. Simply calling on the name of Jesus causes evil to flee. I see no need for innovation. We as humans always try to make things too hard on ourselves. The easy Way is right in front of us.

Paul

[David M.]

Maybe I just have a problem with hypnosis being/sounding too new age. I am sure it is mellinia old, but you know what I mean. I think hypnosis is dangerous and potentially harmful. I don't know any spiritual father/mentor/elder that would condone or perform hypnosis. Father David please correct me. You are our expert here on this.

Instead of going to those outside the church for healing our passions or introducing potential demonic influence, why not do what works? The Jesus Prayer DOES work. Simply calling on the name of Jesus causes evil to flee. I see no need for innovation. We as humans always try to make things too hard on ourselves. The easy Way is right in front of us.

Paul


When it comes to hypnotization by another, you may have point. But I am not so sure that self-hypnotization can be called innovation. I wonder if it isn't something that many saints have done, but just not called it such. The new age and other spiritualist movements have indeed used these techniques as well, but we have to remember that the enemy doesn't come up with anything new but just twists that which is good...the best lie is the one that is closest to the truth.

I am not saying that I am positive that any of this hypnotization is good...I am actually quite prone to be wary of it. But I do not want to dismiss it too hastily just because I know it's potential for being used in an evil manner.

[Father David Moser]

... hypnosis is dangerous and potentially harmful. I don't know any spiritual father/mentor/elder that would condone or perform hypnosis. Father David please correct me. ...

Instead of going to those outside the church for healing our passions or introducing potential demonic influence, why not do what works? The Jesus Prayer DOES work....

I will not correct you, but rather confirm what you say. As a priest, I do not believe that any Orthodox Christian who is serious about their spiritual life and well being should submit to hypnosis (whether self hypnosis or with the facilitation of a hypnotist; whether for medical, therapeutic or entertainment reasons).

It is not to be found in any Orthodox practice of which I am aware (even if one assumes that it is not called "hypnosis" there is no description of "hypnotic" practices or states or techniques or anything else) In fact one of the things that hypnosis does use quite heavily is that of mental imagery. This, in and of itself, is warned against by the fathers and thus should be avoided whether in the context of hypnosis, "relaxation" or however it may be found.

Fr David Moser

[David M.]

"The practice may involve specific body postures and be accompanied by very deliberate breathing patterns." ... "Hesychastic practice involves acquiring an inner stillness and ignoring the physical senses." ... "The Hesychast interprets Christ's injunction in the Gospel of Matthew (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Matthew) to "go into your closet to pray" to mean that one should ignore the senses and withdraw inward"..."In solitude and retirement the Hesychast repeats the Jesus Prayer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_Prayer), "Lord Jesus Christ, son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner."..."The Hesychast is to bring his mind (Gr. nous) into his heart so as to practise both the Jesus Prayer and sobriety with his mind in his heart. The descent of the mind into the heart is taken quite literally by the practitioners of Hesychasm and is not at all considered to be a metaphorical expression. Some of the psychophysical techniques described in the texts are to assist the descent of the mind into the heart at those times that only with difficulty it descends on its own."

I cannot help but think that one who practices this WILL be undergoing some form of self-hypnosis whether by intent or not. So many of these descriptions could come right out of a guide for self-hypnosis. I will grant that the use of mental imagery is forbidden in this practice, but that is just one of many techniques which is not an end to itself, but a possible way of achieving the end goal which is (to quote from above) "acquiring an inner stillness and ignoring the physical senses"...All ducks don't have to be identical to still be ducks...and if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck.......

Mr. Cowan and Fr. Moser, be assured, I am not suggesting going outside of the church to practice hypnosis. Nor am I wanting to bring secular hypnosis into the church. Instead, I am looking at whether or not some of the practices of the saints of the church might contain elements of hypnosis already. Once again, not looking for something new, but coming to a better understanding of that which is tried and true. I think there is a lot of knee-jerk reaction here because of all the conotations of the word "hypnosis" and those who practice it. However, we do all kinds of things that, physiologically speaking, do in fact "hypnotize" us. Some of these things have been mentioned earlier in this thread. And I think that alot of the things we do in worship and in our private prayer lives as Orthodox Christians do in fact have some hypnotic qualities (focusing on an icon, verbal repetition, physical repetition, etc.) I just want to take a step back and try to look at this issue without all the baggage. Whenever you look at a religion of the enemy's it is filled with practices that are very similar to our own. That is because the enemy is not the author of any real thing, but the distorter of all that truly is. If in our prayer life we come into some type of hypnotic state as we focus on God and let all the cares of this world leave us, then why wouldn't the enemy want to take this and twist it by leading people to do the same thing BUT remove God from the equation...AND to allow mental images into their mind to aid the process so that, as Fr Moser alluded to, the enemy might then be able to manipulate those images to deceive the person.

Perhaps I have gone on too long, but I just want us to not be so "either, or" in our thinking on this matter. There may just be another option but it will only be found if we can humbly approach it without rushing to grab our torches and pitchforks.

[Matthew]

How exactly should an Orthodox Christian approach the subject of hypnosis?

Perhaps my personal experience will help.

First, to Maria's original question, an Orthodox Christian should approach the subject of hypnosis by asking his or her spiritual father for advice. It depends on the individual, and also what specific passion the hypnosis is intended to address.

I used hypnosis to quit smoking tobacco, which, glory to God, was successful.

My spiritual father knew it was a problem, and knew how severe it was. I asked him if seeking hypnosis was acceptable in my case. He said it was, but to tell the hypnotist that I was an Orthodox Christian, and to instruct him not to do anything that would interfere with my faith.

I should add that before my experience, I had always considered hypnotism as "new age" and artificial. However, hypnotism helped me overcome an addiction that I couldn't overcome by myself, no matter what I had tried. It did so in a way that made me believe that it came from God himself, a blessed cure for the relief of a deeply ingrained passion. And I continue to thank Him for the fact that I no longer need to smoke.

[Anthony Stokes]

Dear All,
So, I am wondering now if anyone would have an example of the kind of self-hypnosis that a Christian may use as a tool/method to post as an example to clearly show what we are talking about?

My only experience with any kind of hypnosis is with Hypnobirthing. When we were expecting our first child, a friend of ours had a baby using Hypnobirthing. My wife had wanted to have a natural birth (drug free) already, and this method sounded like a good way to try. Our priest knew about it as we went through the classes.

Hypnobirthing is basically focused on one thing: having your baby naturally with as little pain as possible, and that is what the exercises deal with. The woman is taught to listen to a tape that helps relax her entire body, and then to practice three different breathing techniques used in the birth. Having attended the classes, I can verify that even during the "hypnosis" sessions, which were really just more of relaxation exercises, you have complete control and concentration.

My wife was able to bring her faith in as well, since they suggest that you pick music to listen to, so she had a playlist of church music, and she would pray the Jesus prayer while waiting.

It turned out that there were complications anyway, and my wife had a c-section, so she didn't get to try the birthing techniques, but the relaxation exercises definitely helped. I've never seen her so relaxed as when they told her that she wouldn't be having a natural birth after all. When our daughter was born, she was also very laid back, and did get upset as often.

I hope this helps,
Sbdn. Anthony

[David M.]

Having attended the classes, I can verify that even during the "hypnosis" sessions, which were really just more of relaxation exercises, you have complete control and concentration.


That is very interesting. I have noticed that when it comes to self-hypnosis people do seem to be describing a situation in which there is self-control as nobody is hypnotizing you and making the suggestions, but instead it comes from the individual. It almost seems like perhaps there is actually an increased level of self-control as the person is concentrating his/her mental energy and blocking out all distractions. I think this would diminish or eliminate one of the major concerns of hypnosis which is that the person is not in control and therefore open to demonic influence. That is not to say that a person is totally immune to demonic influence, we never are, but that the safeguards of being sober and vigilant are not removed as perhaps thought but instead they are potentially heightened. Just a thought.

Thanks
David

[M.C. Steenberg]

Dear friends,

Reading through the above, it seems that the real theme to address for our purposes here, is that which Fr David raised early on in the thread: namely, how practices of hypnosis relate to the anthropology of the mind and nous that the fathers reveal, and in particular the ascetical question of how imposing such states might call into question vigilance, watchfulness, and the practices of control that the Church teaches are part of authentic and necessary Christian life. I've been interested in the comparison with 'relaxation exercises', which I do not take to be equivalent to hypnosis proper; but this distinction raises the question as to just how far each type of practice goes, before it constitutes a sequestering of control over the nous - a practice that certainly would go against the ascetical instructions of the fathers.

INXC, Dcn Matthew

[Paul Cowan]

Having practised this myself as a youth, I can say that self hypnosis does help one focus on oneself. This is the problem. We are not called to focus on ourselves. We are called to focus on Christ. hypnosis is yet another way satan has warped something very simple; the Jesus prayer, into something selfish. Hypnosis becomes a passion producing practise since we take our eyes off the target. Regardless of what the definition of hypnosis is in this day and age, the practise of it is potentially harmful. Even Freud abandoned use of it for himself and his patients with their outbursts of powerful emotions.

As I said above, one can only be hypnotised if one chooses to be. My wife also smokes. :( she wants to quit, not really. She contacted one of these smoking hypnotised and he told her flat out only 10% of his clients actually quit for a short time and of those only 20% actualy stop smoking. He told her that unless she REALLY wanted to quit, not even to bother coming to the seminar as it would not work for her.

Here is a medical definition of hypnosis. The term hypnosis comes from the name of Hypnos, the ancient god of dreams (http://www.medterms.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=10809). I think the last sentence of the article only emphises the ridiculousness of this practise in todays world.

Paul

[Father David Moser]

It has been opined that perhaps hypnosis or some of the elements thereof already exist within the Church and thus we should conclude that perhaps hypnosis is acceptable. It has also been observed that "self hypnosis" is "just like relaxation" and that it does not eliminate the state of vigilance over one's soul.

Neither of these statements are, imo, entirely accurate. As for the similarity between some aspects of hypnosis and some aspects of the Orthodox practice, this is approached from a backwards position. The assumption seems to be that we can find elements of hypnosis within the Church as though hypnosis were the original or more complete source. This is not the case. Hypnosis draws upon truths concerning the functioning of the mind and body that have been already known within the Church. Hypnosis then distills these truths and creates techniques which seem to take advantage of them. It then presents this incomplete truth in a distilled form as a complete package. It is not the praxis of the Church which has elements of hypnosis, but rather hypnosis that has taken elements of the praxis of the Church and assimilated them for a unique purpose. Why then should we look to an incomplete and distorted phenomenon (hypnosis) in order to enlighten us about the complete and true practice (the praxis of the Church). Hypnosis is, at best a bad example given to us to see what to avoid.

As for the experience of "self hypnosis" and the seemingly innocent applications of hypnosis that some have experienced, we can first start with the axiom that all hypnosis is self hypnosis - there is no other kind. Hypnosis requires that a person of strong will use their will to voluntarily negate the natural functioning of the mind which is the guardian of the soul and withdraw it from awareness of all areas but the single focus upon which the subject of hypnosis selects. This can be accomplished as self hypnosis (often in such cases a preproduced written script or self made tape will be used so that the mind is not engaged in remembering or constructing the focus program) but it is facilitated by a "hypnotist" who is the one who makes the suggestions about how and where to direct that focus. On the surface this seems innocent and safe, and indeed within the range of "focus" it is. The problem lies in the fact that while all our energies are focused upon the front door of the soul, the windows and back door are left totally unguarded (since all the energies and attention of the soul is focused on the front door) allowing all kinds of passionate impulses and temptation to established an unnoticed foothold which can later be utilized. This is the same phenomena that makes a "post-hypnotic suggestion" work. Some kind of direction is given and then, at the suggestion of the hypnotist/facilitator it is relegated to that area which is "unnoticed" (outside the area of focus) and thus seems to be forgotten, but it is no less active and potent to affect one's action, even outside the "hypnotic state".

Writing this brings to mind the second homily of St Issac the Syrian, specifically:

many are the persons that with two or three members have parted from the world, and curb themselves with respect to these, and suppose themselves to be strangers to the world in their way of life. This, however, is because they neither understand nor prudently see that with two of their members they have died to the world, while their remaining members live within the body of the world. Howbeit, they have not even been able to perceive so much as their passions. And since they have no awareness of them, neither have they made and effort to heal them.

Hypnosis is something that creates a "deception" that we have mastered the whole world (or a single complete passion) when in fact we have only addressed a single small point upon which our focused gaze fell. One might have stopped smoking (to use the above example) however the passions that brought about the smoking and the love of pleasure that maintained the smoking still are unaddressed. But the former smoker does not necessarily see these things (here I make no assertions regarding Matthew's spiritual life - rather I am constructing a hypothetical "typical case" using the external situation which Matthew described), but is deceived into thinking that all was defeated in the cessation of smoking and so considers himself to have "won the war" when in fact the war has not yet been fought.

In any case, I still can find absolutely no reason for an Orthodox Christian to engage in a worldly practice that is at best a pale, limited and incomplete imitation of one aspect of the life of the Church and which at worst leads one into self deception and possibly even unwitting enslavement to a particular passion (again I refer to my own case here which I will not relate further but from which I was delivered only by the grace of God).

Fr David Moser

[David M.]

I've been interested in the comparison with 'relaxation exercises', which I do not take to be equivalent to hypnosis proper; but this distinction raises the question as to just how far each type of practice goes, before it constitutes a sequestering of control over the nous - a practice that certainly would go against the ascetical instructions of the fathers.

INXC, Dcn Matthew

Thank you for this post. Could you elaborate a little on this? I have been wondering whether or not using the word "self-hypnosis" was the best way to put this as it does seem very different from what I understand of hypnosis by other (esp. concerning the issue of self-control, as it seems that, as I stated above, what I am thinking of as self-hypnosis seems to aid in an increased amount of self-control whereas hypnosis by other seems to decrease one's self-control and even a total loss of self-control as it is being handed over to another).

Thank you,
David

[Herman Blaydoe]

Would not the issues and ideas discussed here apply equally well in the thread concerning chakras?

Seems so to this bear of little brain.

Herman the Pooh

[Rick H.]

Yes Herman, I agree, much overlap here with the issues at play in the chakra (and yoga) thread.

[Matthew]

Hypnosis is something that creates a "deception" that we have mastered the whole world (or a single complete passion) when in fact we have only addressed a single small point upon which our focused gaze fell. One might have stopped smoking (to use the above example) however the passions that brought about the smoking and the love of pleasure that maintained the smoking still are unaddressed. But the former smoker does not necessarily see these things (here I make no assertions regarding Matthew's spiritual life - rather I am constructing a hypothetical "typical case" using the external situation which Matthew described), but is deceived into thinking that all was defeated in the cessation of smoking and so considers himself to have "won the war" when in fact the war has not yet been fought.

Thank you, Father. This is very true and well said.

[Nina]

We should pray with our eyes open.

He [Elder Porphyrios] told me, "Let us pray with open eyes."
I asked, "why Elder, can't we pray with closed eyes?" He responded, "We are not dealing with hypnotism here my child. And I, whenever I pray to help a soul or a person, I pray with open eyes. Whatever the Spirit says to me, I say. Whatever it reveals to me, this I say."p.93 The Divine Flame Elder Porphyrios lit in my heart, by Monk Agapios

[David M.]

Thank you all, this has been very enlightening. I found this site after having had a heated debate with a friend of mine over hypnosis (I was very STRONLY against it). However, my friend stated that I didn't truly understand it and that is why I was opposed to it. After leaving, I began to really think about everything that was said. I was a bit ashamed at how vehemently I had attacked my friend's ideas and wondered if maybe I was wrong on some level. So I began to do some research and that is how I found this website.
I wanted to try and give hypnosis the benefit of the doubt and look at it from an unbiased perspective to see if there might be something of value for me as an Orthodox Christian. I stated what I was wanting answers to in an earlier post:


"So here is the challenge, can we show that Hypnosis as prescribed above:
A) does in fact aid us in the healing of our passions, and
B) does NOT cause us harm by allowing demonic influence or supplanting God's design for our healing"
Here are my conclusions and some of the posts that most helped to bring them about:

A) It may relieve a symptom, but not destroy the actual Passion behind it...so NO it does not aid us in the healing of our passions. (1)

B) [first part] It CAN cause us harm by allowing demonic influence. We may feel we are in complete control because we are focusing our mental strength on a single issue. The problem lies in the fact that by doing this we are opening ourselves up in the areas that we are then negleting to control. (2)

B) [second part] It most likely WILL supplant God's design for our healing. [ SEE A) ] (1)


(1) "My use of "relief" is quite deliberate and not necessarily positive. A symptom in a disease can be relieved and thus mask the need to deal with a serious ailment. There are times we need relief...need consolations, but as Orthodox Christians I believe we are taught to be wary of them as well. As some have said people who pray for healing from a disease are not necessarily looking for healing...wholeness, they are looking for relief from the discomforts the disease brings. Once they have relief their minds and hearts return to frivolous things and they are no better than before when during the time of their sickness they were more thoughtful and deliberate in their life and even sought after spiritual things in a limited way. So relief can be deceptive and there are times it is deeply counterproductive, however welcome it might be in the short term. Pressure reveals what's within." - Robert Hegwood from the Yoga/chakras thread

(2) "Hypnosis requires that a person of strong will use their will to voluntarily negate the natural functioning of the mind which is the guardian of the soul and withdraw it from awareness of all areas but the single focus upon which the subject of hypnosis selects ....*.... On the surface this seems innocent and safe, and indeed within the range of "focus" it is. The problem lies in the fact that while all our energies are focused upon the front door of the soul, the windows and back door are left totally unguarded (since all the energies and attention of the soul is focused on the front door) allowing all kinds of passionate impulses and temptation to established an unnoticed foothold which can later be utilized." - Fr. David Moser from this thread *my own editing, removal of sentence.

The post by Mr. Hegwood above was the one that really shook me. I have a sin issue that I have been battling for many years. The friend with whom I was debating was trying to convince me that hypnosis may help me find victory over that issue. But I have come to the conclusion in recent years that it has been this very sin issue that has forced me to run time and again back to my Lord because it is a constant reminder that I need Him every hour (probably why I love that hymn...."I need thee every hour stay thou nearby. Temptations lose their power when Thou art nigh. I need thee, oh I need thee, every hour I need thee. Oh bless me now my Saviour, I come to Thee." And it is also that sin issue which has kept my pride in check...So when I read that post by Mr. Hegwood it just put everything into focus for me. I would be trying to take a shortcut to healing, basically taking into my own hands that which I am supposed to be surrendering to the healing power of the Lord. And by doing this, I could very easily bring great misery down upon myself by saying to God, "I don't trust you to heal me because you have not done it on my terms or in my timing." and then removing the thorn from my own flesh.

I am greatly appreciative for the wisdom I found here.

David M.

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

David M. wrote:


The post by Mr. Hegwood above was the one that really shook me. I have a sin issue that I have been battling for many years. The friend with whom I was debating was trying to convince me that hypnosis may help me find victory over that issue. But I have come to the conclusion in recent years that it has been this very sin issue that has forced me to run time and again back to my Lord because it is a constant reminder that I need Him every hour (probably why I love that hymn...."I need thee every hour stay thou nearby. Temptations lose their power when Thou art nigh. I need thee, oh I need thee, every hour I need thee. Oh bless me now my Saviour, I come to Thee." And it is also that sin issue which has kept my pride in check...So when I read that post by Mr. Hegwood it just put everything into focus for me. I would be trying to take a shortcut to healing, basically taking into my own hands that which I am supposed to be surrendering to the healing power of the Lord. And by doing this, I could very easily bring great misery down upon myself by saying to God, "I don't trust you to heal me because you have not done it on my terms or in my timing." and then removing the thorn from my own flesh.

There is something in this which I think is very important. What hynosis actually involves in terms of the inner being I honestly do not know. But at least in the popular understanding it refers to an external manipulation of the consciousness. In other words in Orthodox terms it refers to an external control over the human will.

Here is exactly where I agree with your concerns. Let's say there was a medication we could reach for to make a passion go away. Something crucial would be lost in this- a grave de humanization, precisely because the struggle with passion is what allows us to grow in inner freedom.

Even with clinical treatments for grave addictions we are not talking about a therapy that would destroy a person's will. If any such exists we should keep far away from this. Rather a therapy that would help would be that which helps the person to discover their will and to revive it towards that which is beneficial.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Rick H.]

I am not an advocate for or a promoter of hypnosis, by any means.

But, I am contributing to this thread to attempt to bring out something that I don't think I have been able to communicate elsewhere.

We can bullet point or we can place what is said in the above posts into main headings and second level sub-headings and so forth. And, we can draw the conclusion that 'hypnosis' is bad--don't do it.

However, and here's the point; in this we are saying, and it would appear to a reader that the conclusion is hypnosis is bad for 'all-'-don't do it.

***But, is that really what we want to say?

As the bear of little brain has said above, these very same issues do apply to the yoga thread.

So one might conclude the same there that yoga is all bad. It is bad for 'all'--don't do it.

***But again here, is that really what we want to say--is that for us to say?

Where I live, in my neck of the wood, it seems that whatever the majority decides around the Coke machine at the local baitshop, or wherever, is what is correct. It becomes something like a "Manlaw." But, again . . . sometimes the majority view is not always the mature view. I think of a post in the other thread about yoga as it relates to an individual and the possibility of a benefit to the person as a whole:




If it is the practical dimension of the matter that interests, then I think this is particularly straight forward. Echoing what Father David has already written, the only way for the practice of yoga to have the possibility of any benefit to the existence of the Christian person as a whole is for it to be done with the express blessing of one's spiritual father -- and whether or not a spiritual father would give that blessing, or counsel some other practice, is not for me to say.



And, I think this is the mature view as it relates to a conclusion here as well.

I'm not sure how much of the most recent conversation in this thread relates to the whole person, the person as a whole. Possibly, there is some help for this thread in a look at the Patristic understanding of the body, the soul, and the spirit. Possibly, in terms of what Orthodoxy believes or an traditional Orthodox anthropology, there is some help for this thread in the very first part of the following post:

'Psychosomatic techniques' - Page 3 - Monachos.net Discussion Community (http://www.monachos.net/forum/showthread.php?p=71595&highlight=bloom#post71595)

In this article we have answers to the question of body, soul, and spirit: What affects what (directly and indirectly)?

I hope some people will take some time to read this article by the Very Rev. Anthony Bloom (in full) when available. I'm not so sure that I'm not experiencing a kind of conversion (for the lack of a better word) through his writing.

But, who is any of us to say that a certain technique, such as those discussed above are all bad--bad for all--don't do it? Honestly, to conclude this, to say this, is to make a confession . . . it is an ignorant statement.

For all we know, any of the above techniques are a Gift straight from the hand of God to a given individual at given time in his/her life, and regardless of whether they bring only a relief of a symptom at a given time, they are a Gift, a blessing, and not a curse for the one on his/her path to salvation.

I think the conclusion here, as elsewhere, is to be found not in a majority view of posters on in electronic discussion group; but, in an grasping of an Orthodox understanding of the person as a whole, and in a mature view that defers to the dynamics of genuine pastoral care and authentic spiritual direction.

For Whom is it to say, 'hypnosis is bad for "all"-don't do it?'

Is it you?

[Herman Blaydoe]

For Whom is it to say, 'hypnosis is bad for "all"-don't do it?'

Is it you?

I think what is being said here, since I am the self-designated master of the obvious, is that the general consensus is that both hypnosis and yoga may not be good things, but in that none of us here feel that we are indeed advanced in these matters, we are willing to concede that it would be best to consult someone you trust and who is responsible for your spiritual well-being before attempting. And many of us strongly suspect that person will recommend "NO" but hey we don't know everything and if he says "yes" then to God be the Glory.

However, a general unwillingness not to condemn should not be taken as a sign to "go for it". I think some serious concerns have been broached, this is not something to engage in lightly. To turn the question around, then, for whom is it to say "hypnosis is good for YOU, go for it"? Hey, if you want to bend yourself into a human pretzel in a hypnotized state, that is for you to decide I suppose. I'll not take that responsibility.

Or in other words, if there are better, more Orthodox methods out there, what is the value in reaching outside the Church for such things? If you read anything by Metropolitan Hierotheos (Vlachos), I think you might begin to see how all these things are connected, particularly in his works related to Orthodox Psychotherapy. The physical is often directly related to the spiritual. Spiritual illness often manifests in physical illness. Treating the physical illness does not help the spiritual illness causing it. Therefore things like hypnosis and yoga, treating the physical without addressing (at best) the spiritual, or perhaps even causing harm without knowing it to the spirit, may not be all that good a thing. Therefore, the safe recommendation would be caution, rather than recommendation. The usual caveats obviously apply.

Herman the cautious Pooh

[Rick H.]

Therefore, the safe recommendation would be caution, rather than recommendation.




Good post/conclusion Pooh!

And, to this caution I would like to add further clarity by again paraphrasing Fr. Dcn's. warning which is regarding the whole matter of practical application / practice of non-Orthodox techniques that deal with the inner man such as this or chakra balancing . . . the voice of the monastic and patristic traditions is clearly--'don't go there without a guide in obedience, end of story.'

Thanks Herman.

I actually miss the old disclaimer believe it or not :)

[Rick H.]

I think I am just now, today, seeing the value of Patristics and a Patristic mindset. Not so that one can take aspects of it to buttress one's own views on a given topic like hypnosis or whatever. But, that it *simply* provides a context in and of IT-self that can "determine" one's way of knowing/unknowing and in turn one's state of being.

A peace that passes all understanding.

And, I think now of something I read this morning for the first time:

"The intellect that begins its search for divine wisdom with *simple* faith will eventually attain a theology that transcends the intellect and that is characterized by unremitting faith of the highest type and the contemplation of the invisible." --St. Thalassios

Yes, the harmony of human nature as it relates to the Ultimate ontological task. A harmony of the Patristic mindset, the Monastic mindset, and the mindset of the obedient and humbled individual.

Once again, In the End, the Beginning.

[M.C. Steenberg]

Dear friends,

For my part, I would say that Herman has expressed the essence of my own view. When I wrote, in the other thread, that ‘the only way for the practice of yoga to have the possibility of any benefit to the existence of the Christian person as a whole is for it to be done with the express blessing of one’s spiritual father’, I was expressing more a general point than a specific: that any act which is deliberately aimed at our inner life or our being as human persons, should be done with the blessing of one’s spiritual father—and that apart from such a blessing, no act undertaken in this dimension can truly be open to the potentials of full growth. I was not intending to suggest that a spiritual father would or would not give a blessing for these specific acts (hence my qualifier: ‘whether or not a spiritual father would give that blessing, or counsel some other practice, is not for me to say’); rather, I was aiming more intentionally at the question of how we choose to go about pondering / exploring such topics vis-a-vis the overall life of growth in the spiritual father / spiritual child relationship.

As to the specifics of this thread, on hypnosis, my own response to the basic question would, indeed, be to say ‘No, never’ is the general rule. Others have expressed well the concerns with how hypnosis effects the nous and person that ground my own. Whether there might be exceptions to this norm is beyond my role to say: I do not fully understand all the dimensions of the whats and hows of what is called ‘hypnosis’, which I do at least know to mean different things in different contexts. I would not presume to speak as if I knew further. But the little I do know is substantive enough to affirm a general approach of ‘no’.

Perhaps what is emerging here is the question of how ‘rules’ (canons) work in Orthodoxy. The Church tends not to work on the ‘keep things open’ principle, which is - generally speaking - quite dangerous, but to take a firm stand based on what is healthy in the majority instances. This becomes the firm canon, the rule. Economy is the pastoral exercise of the rule in certain cases; but the rule remains. From one perspective, this might seem closed-minded or overly proscriptive; but in fact this is the foundation of an authentic approach to truth. The norms tend to be absolute; a free-for-all of 'what fits me' is the gateway to the delusion of the will. And precisely in the firmness of the norms, the gateway to a real pastoral approach is formed.

So it would seem quite sensible, from my own limited perspective, to say ‘no, never’ is indeed the healthy rule and norm. Might there be exceptions? This is not for me to know; that is precisely where economia works. But as a rule, I think the position fairly straightforward.

INXC, Dcn Matthew

[Nina]

Hypno... hypno... it was a god of Greek mythology and his name means 'sleep'.

This being said I agree with Fr. Raphael, Fr. Matthew and Herman the smart Pooh.

[Rick H.]

IMHO it is starting to look like there is a clear and balanced consensus forming here on this topic in general (and its disclaimers). Possibly, this can serve as a model for other such discussions.

On the one hand if we are not participating in good then we are participating in evil, and vice versa--there is no static state; however, as has been discussed in many threads here on Monachos.net in the past, at times what is good for one can be evil for another, and vice versa. Not all areas are black and white, and in this sense it can be inaccurate and misleading to present some perspectives as being absolute truth claims or dogma for 'all,' with no exceptions.

Hat's off (and thanks) to Fr. Dcn. and Herman the Simple for the above contributions.

[David M.]

For Whom is it to say, 'hypnosis is bad for "all"-don't do it?'

Is it you?


I'm not positive if you are referring to my last post, but if you are, you might want to take a look at my post title, Personal conclusion and closure. I was in no way saying that everybody had to agree with my conclusion. In fact, that is the reason I included that word, "Personal" in that title, because I didn't want anybody to get the impression that I was trying to make a blanket statement for all. Apparently it wasn't clear enough. That said, I do think that any person who would come to a different conclusion would have to address those same concerns.

Thanks,
David

[Rick H.]

I was in no way saying that everybody had to agree with my conclusion. In fact, that is the reason I included that word, "Personal" in that title, because I didn't want anybody to get the impression that I was trying to make a blanket statement for all.


David, I can see how you would think I might have been referring to your last post, but I wasn't singling you out intentionally.

Thanks for the clarification about blanket statements for "all." I think this is an important aspect of this conversation. But, again as Fr. Dcn. speaks to this topic as it relates to the many, while we may not necessarily have the majority view I think we do have the mature view, and in this a conclusion.

I appreciate your use of the word "personal"--good word. :)

[Robert Hegwood]

With regard to pastoral concensus on this or any other matter, many years ago I attended a talk given by Dr. Chester Swor, a Baptist minister of some small note at the time in my region of the world. He shared an incident wherein he was visit by a bright young man intent on challenging his outmoded views on this that and the other and proceded to express the opinion that Dr. Swor was a bit narrow minded.

Dr. Swor asked the young man, "Son, do you know what the difference is between my living room and the garbage dump?" The young man shook his head and Dr. Swor continued, "The difference is that my living room is narrow minded. Not just anything is allowed inside. On the other hand, the garbage dump is quite open minded, anything at all can get in there."

[Rick H.]

Reading the above post, the exchange between the Baptist minister and the young man, I am reminded of the following comment by a veteran Baptist minister:

"Fundamentalism is not so much a set of unique doctrines as it is a mood."

And, I am reminded that Fundamentalism knows no boundaries. It's not possible to escape it its influence really is everywhere.