Inspiration found outside the Church?

[Rick H.]

Unless we are engaged in a project only of comparison, in which case normally we are talking about apologetics, we should not go outside of the Church for inspiration.

We have had discussions here many times about the fact that good is found outside of the Church. These discussions usually end up being very balanced in terms of where God can be found outside of the Church.

According to the Fathers however we should not go outside the Church for guidance and inspiration. This is due not to there being nothing of worth outside of the Church but rather to a need for discernment-it will be many years before we know how to separate wheat from chaff. The danger is that we can be led deeply astray not just in specific points which the Church does not hold to. Of equal risk is that we do not have that savor of the Church within us which comes from a commitment to a way of life that at first can seem very restricted but which in time opens out into the only way of recognizing what is good around us and knowing how to interact with it.



Dear All,

In the above quote, by Father Raphael, from the St. John of the Cross thread the following two precepts are laid down:


I. We should not go outside of the Church for inspiration.

II. According to the Fathers however we should not go outside the Church for guidance and inspiration.


Here, as elsewhere, the danger of being led astray is mentioned, and a consideration of different levels of understanding ('recognizing') is highlighted.

So, in lieu of a lengthy introduction, possibly we can ask one question here initially:

***When we say 'we should not go outside of the Church for inspiration,' is this like saying 'we should only read that which drives us to our knees in prayer' whereby this is a saying to be held "loosely," or is this a blanket statement that covers all who would claim membership in the Church--and all sources of inspiration to be found outside the Church?


In Christ,
Rick

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear All,

In the above quote, by Father Raphael, from the St. John of the Cross thread the following two precepts are laid down:


I. We should not go outside of the Church for inspiration.

II. According to the Fathers however we should not go outside the Church for guidance and inspiration.


Here, as elsewhere, the danger of being led astray is mentioned, and a consideration of different levels of understanding ('recognizing') is highlighted.

So, in lieu of a lengthy introduction, possibly we can ask one question here initially:

***When we say 'we should not go outside of the Church for inspiration,' is this like saying 'we should only read that which drives us to our knees in prayer' whereby this is a saying to be held "loosely," or is this a blanket statement that covers all who would claim membership in the Church--and all sources of inspiration to be found outside the Church?


In Christ,
Rick

Dear Rick,

What this means is that every aspect of our lives within the Church is to be part of a larger discipline.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[John Charmley]

Dear Rick,

These wise words of Metropolitan Kallistos (quoted elsewhere on this site by Jetavan) seem relevant here:

“We Orthodox who live in the West are heirs to the entire cultural and intellectual tradition of the West, much of which indeed is profoundly Christian. We are heirs to Dante, to Shakespeare, to Milton, to Wordsworth,” Bishop Kallistos continued passionately. “Of course we have our own Orthodox interpretation of their work. But if we are to play our role as Orthodox in the Western world we must be willing to listen and to learn from the spiritual masters of the Western tradition— yes, even from the world of the Enlightenment. Because this for us, and I speak as a Western convert, this for us is our own cultural heritage. We must not simply reject it and say ‘I shall only read Orthodox authors.’ Sometimes Orthodox say to me ‘Oh, I’m not going to waste my time reading Dante; he wasn’t Orthodox,’ which is a pity: for, if they did read Dante, they might learn a lot. Well, perhaps some people should just read Orthodox books. But others of us must surely engage in a dialogue with Western culture. Otherwise we are betraying our roles as Orthodox placed here in the West as mediators and witnesses. God did not put me in ninth-century Byzantium. He placed me in twenty-first-century Oxford. There must be a reason for that.

Indeed there must.


In Christ,

John

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

By removing the discussion from its original thread the intention of my message has been changed from a quite specific topic concerning spiritual guidance within the Orthodox Church to a broad and general question about what we should partake in through our lives as Orthodox Christians. Although these points are related they are not identical and it is disheartening to see the change in focus to the question which avoids dealing with its challenges.

In any case this is what I actually wrote in the St John of the Cross thread:


Unless we are engaged in a project only of comparison, in which case normally we are talking about apologetics, we should not go outside of the Church for inspiration.

We have had discussions here many times about the fact that good is found outside of the Church. These discussions usually end up being very balanced in terms of where God can be found outside of the Church.


According to the Fathers however we should not go outside the Church for guidance and inspiration. This is due not to there being nothing of worth outside of the Church but rather to a need for discernment- it will be many years before we know how to separate wheat from chaff. The danger is that we can be led deeply astray not just in specific points which the Church does not hold to. Of equal risk is that we do not have that savour of the Church within us which comes from a commitment to a way of life that at first can seem very restricted but which in time opens out into the only way of recognizing what is good around us and knowing how to interact with it.

If we die to ourselves then we will not only find good- and in the most unexpected places; we will instill good into the world. Try to do this the other way around and we will betray our basic Christian calling to the world.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

I have purposely put into italics one of the paragraphs from my post in order to emphasize the specific point that we were discussing not a general question of 'inspiration outside of the Church' (which I very much agree is a very important topic to itself which needs ongoing discussion) but rather of spiritual guidance within the Church.

To take the first point since that is now the topic of this particular thread. Of course we read, listen, etc outside of what is strictly Orthodox. We send our children to school, we listen to radio or music CDs, we even-shudder- watch TV :). In all of this balance is needed so that we are not just engaged in the indulgence of worldly passions. Rather acknowledging the world we are part of, we are concerned for it & we share in it. But even here our sharing in the world cannot fall into just plain self-indulgence. One of the most serious deviations in our spiritual life is the frequent excuse (often put forward with more sophisticated & self-duplicitous language) that we're just human after all. Well yes, balance even in these things is called for, without an extreme rejection of what surrounds us: this is for the sake of inner spiritual health. But again this is very different from excuses for worldly self-indulgence which like a batch of rotten yeast infects the whole lump. Thus even while 'going light' from time to time since we do not yet have the wings of angels we are taught to accompany this with an honest attitude regarding our weaknesses and actual motivations. 'Going light' does not equal the life of the martyrs.

This question however is very different from that of how & where to turn to for spiritual guidance. Here we have a 2000 year tradition created to guide us in safety. Thus we are taught to turn to our direct flesh & blood spiritual fathers/ mothers and then those Frs who surround us in spirit through the writings and traditions they bestow on us. We turn to them because nurtured from within the Church they are uniquely able to guide us and bring us to life through the Holy Spirit. Those who have not come from within our Church we do not reject as having no good. But we do not turn to them for spiritual guidance since they are not appointed to make shoots grow from the Vine to which we have been grafted by Christ. In other words faithfulness & responsibility come into play here. Then there is the question of savour which can only be understood from experience.

Lastly I have to say that I have been around long enough to see the fruits of going elsewhere for spiritual guidance. In no case- I mean literally no case- has good spiritual fruit resulted. Instead, since the choice is made to consciously adopt self-will in such a defining way our spiritual life becomes distorted. This is because going elsewhere for spiritual guidance usually involves avoiding spiritual guidance for the sake of clinging onto self-will.

Hopefully in time we will be able to see what is being discussed here. In general this tendency can be part of how a person strives to retain their freedom. Certainly there is a 'dark night' where for a period of time obedience in the sense of such a dramatic restriction of self-will as is found within the Church is truly frightening. In time however the dark clouds of self-will disappear and are replaced by the open doors of freedom in Christ. Then our relationship to the world is altered and with Christ we begin healing the world.

Those however who in dramatic fashion turn this equation around inevitably end up betraying the world and contributing to its further misery. This is the drama we all face.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[John Charmley]

Dear Fr. Raphael,

As I read my way through the various series of Ante-Nicene, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, I cannot help reflecting with thanks on the labours of all these non- Eastern Orthodox scholars through whom those of us without the Greek and sufficient Latin have access to the wisdom of those Fathers. Of course, we read them, as +Kallistos said about western cultural phenomena, through Orthodox eyes, but we should be a good deal poorer in this area if we had only Eastern Orthodox translators and editors upon whom to rely.

The difference between 'inspiration from outside the Church' and 'spiritual guidance' is, of course, as you put it, and one would not wish to dissent from that - save, perhaps, to add something about one's own tradition.

When a pastor of your experience tells us with all due seriousness that
In no case- I mean literally no case- has good spiritual fruit resulted from looking for that guidance outside of the Church, we ought to pay heed and be thankful for the warning.

In Christ,

John

[Andreas Moran]

I do not accept what Metropolitan Kallistos says in this regard (re John's quote). The Orthodox faith is relevant and 'do-able' in all places at all times . Its practice is not contingent upon any engagement with other Christian traditions. Being in 21st century Essex in no way requires me to me look at other traditions, nor limits my practice of the Orthodox faith. My only problem is my sinfulness, weakness and negligence.

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

John Charmley wrote:


As I read my way through the various series of Ante-Nicene, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, I cannot help reflecting with thanks on the labours of all these non- Eastern Orthodox scholars through whom those of us without the Greek and sufficient Latin have access to the wisdom of those Fathers. Of course, we read them, as +Kallistos said about western cultural phenomena, through Orthodox eyes, but we should be a good deal poorer in this area if we had only Eastern Orthodox translators and editors upon whom to rely.


This is a good example of what I am referring to. Of course we should be thankful for what these and others have done in presenting the Holy Fathers to us. With care and guidance one can read such works with profit.

However if I told a spiritual child or parishioner, "go to the editors of the CCEL series to resolve that spiritual issue" I would be neglecting my calling as a priest & spiritual father in their regard.

A related issue is that we should not be reading just anything we wish without guidance, even within, thank God, the larger & larger number of Orthodox books available nowadays.

In all things there must be an ascetic measure, even (or especially) with spiritual reading otherwise self-will will harm the fruit.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Father Serafim]

I personally do not feel happy about Met Kallistos's statement either.
What can we learn from high culture that is for the most part contaminated by carnal emotions and that is far removed (not in toto) from the Patristic mindset? I am not in favour of ignoring great literature, but rather to approach it with caution. I fear that the joy and exhilaration that the great deceiver will put into the hearts (not minds) of men, will be difficult to discern if we are not fully grounded in our faith. It may be uplifting, but is it expedient? As Met Anthony once, said: I am no longer a physician because I need more time to a priest. His Eminence was not rejecting his medical profession, but as the demands of the priesthood were greater, being a physician was no longer relevant to his calling. St Ignaty Brianchaninov also cautions that not all that appears to be good is beneficial. Fr Sophrony said that Michelangelo possessed great genius but not for liturgical subjects. While I enjoy playing Bach, I cannot perceive of using his inspiring music in the Divine Liturgy.

[Rick H.]

A Larger Discipline




Dear Rick,

What this means is that every aspect of our lives within the Church is to be part of a larger discipline.

In Christ- Fr Raphael



Dear Father Raphael,

Thank you for your contributions here. Sometimes I think I could feast off of the crumbs from your table forever.

And, now that I have you all 'buttered-up' :) . . . I wonder if you might have time today or tomorrow to help me understand this expression "a larger discipline." I am wondering if this "larger discipline" is to be equated with "dying to self?"

This is what I am thinking you are saying as I string all of your thoughts from recent posts and some from last winter together. And, then I am wondering if you/we are saying, from this place of surrender/trust/abiding whereby we know the Truth, then we are set free (as said in the scriptures)?

And, please correct me if I am misunderstanding what you are saying here, I don't want to put words in your mouth for sure . . . but then are we saying that from this place of freedom we may find good and true helps/aids in unexpected places (or even non-'Orthodox' places)?

In Christ,
Rick

[Andrew]

Everything necessary for the entire salvation of man is found within the Orthodox Church. Everything.

And man needs salvation. This is the one thing needful. It is easy to be distracted, but as time moves on I see bit by bit how dire our (specifically, my) situation is. There is little time, and the weight of sin and the passions is weighing us down. So, yes, there is good outside the Church, but it reaches it's full beauty, order, and glory within the Church, transfigured by the Church. If we want to be saved, we follow the Church and live the life of the Cross. If we want to be intellectually stimulated, there is some of that in living the spiritual life, but that too must bear the terrible weight of the Cross.

So, I don't know. Some Sufi's have interesting, good things to say. Same with various philosophers, religious men, non-religious men, etc. It is because of the light of man. But the Light of God is revealed within the life of the Church, and is the true light. Without this presence, without this life, we have no full personal-Godlike life, and we will not inherit the Kingdom.

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

One thing that occurs to me here about reading.

Every day as part of our prayer rule we must be reading Orthodox spiritual books according to the guidance of our spiritual father or parish priest. About 15 minutes to a half-hour are needed.

By spiritual books we mean for example the Optina Elders series put out by Platina or the many other books on Greek Elders. There are also the lives of saints, homilies of the Fathers, etc.

This should be as natural for us as knowing we need to eat & drink every day and that without this what will happen to us. Indeed so many of our questions are answered if we make this part of our spiritual routine.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Michael Stickles]

As a non-Orthodox, what I can bring to this discussion is obviously limited, but perhaps two lessons I've learned from my own experience will also be relevant in this context.

The first lesson is that, the primary use for materials from other traditions (for me, that has meant non-Christian rather than non-Orthodox) is to allow me to look at the contents of my own tradition from different angles. Specifically, when some Christian concept has been difficult for me to understand, the differing viewpoint of another tradition can help break the "mental logjam". This can occur whether I am reacting to a truth or an error (or a combination of both) in the other tradition as it relates to that concept.

The second is that, examining materials from other traditions is unlikely to provide any profit unless I am actively remaining grounded in my own. For me, that has meant reading the Scriptures regularly and remaining in fellowship; in the Orthodox context it would also include the kind of writings that Father Raphael mentioned, as well as the relationship with one's spiritual father. Without that grounding, the proper import of truths found can be missed, and (more dangerously) errors found may be accepted as truths, where they would have been seen as errors and rejected had a proper grounding been maintained.

[Owen Jones]

Inspiration is one thing. Salvation is another.

[John Charmley]

Dear Mike,

They were helpful thoughts, for which many thanks.

Not sure about anything hard and fast here at times though. I read my way through the standard collection of the Ante-Nicene, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers during the course of a three year period and find none of them strangers to my 'tradition'. But I also find reading Newman a great help, and feel a little sorry for those who feel he has nothing to say to their 'tradition'; if they would take the trouble, they would find it worth it.

Of course, Herman is right, a lifetime would scarce be enough to read everything that would be edifying; but those who refuse to read Newman because they think he has nothing to say to them are missing out - as some Orthodox scholars have themselves noted. Indeed I recall reading one Orthodox writer who quite convinced me that an Orthodox reading of Newman was actually more edifying than the usual Roman Catholic one.

Still, as long as we following the regime indicated by Fr. Raphael, we shall not go far wrong, and for those with less time or taste for Patristics, it may be better to stick to the route indicated.

In Christ,

John

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

What I am talking about is what the Fathers in more modern times call the reading of spiritual literature; ie those books that form part of our daily spiritual discipline or our rule. These can include anything from the reading of the Fathers to the Lives of the Saints or contemporary accounts of the Elders such as the Optina Elders, homilies, etc etc. Really, there's a tremendous variety of Orthodox spiritual literature available nowadays.

This literature is read to guide and inspire us in our spiritual lives within the Church. To guide because we too are seeking the Kingdom of God. To inspire because we need the enlightenment of the Holy Spirit for this to become reality at least in anticipation.

These books which I refer to are read not just for helpful or enlightening information. Yes that can be gained from many sources. Spiritual literature for us is an actual source of grace or form of communion which goes beyond the words through which this is expressed. Which is why to partake in these books is to share the very lives of the saints and their participation in the Kingdom. It is to share the air they breathe. That is why in some sense it is part of the larger sacramental experience of the Church and helps situate us more intensely within the Church.

So as I said at the beginning of these posts, I am not speaking about reading books in general, or even about books that are good or 'inspiring' according to the modern usage of this word. Such books are read by us. But still care is needed since the danger is of not knowing that, let's say the Optina Elders, are for us far surer guides than St John of the Cross or Newman. Do these latter having anything of worth to say? Probably. But what the Optina Elders have (again only an example- Elder Paisios or Cleopas, etc also have this) which is not found elsewhere is a particular life within the Church and an understanding of this which goes beyond any words.

Plus there is a savour which is so unique to them. The savour of the Church.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Karena Hryniuk]

***When we say 'we should not go outside of the Church for inspiration,' is this like saying 'we should only read that which drives us to our knees in prayer' whereby this is a saying to be held "loosely," or is this a blanket statement that covers all who would claim membership in the Church--and all sources of inspiration to be found outside the Church?

In Christ,
Rick

Rick,

Just a few words to add. As we have seen so much in the past this is also a circumstance where the majority of discussions come full circle.
You ask what is a larger discipline. I think this is a very good question. At the same time it goes back to the discussion of not only how or what this is, but also how do we as outsiders living in the front lines of the secular world manifest this discipline? If my memory serves me correctly some of this was mentioned in the 'Purgation of the will' thread.

In a previous post where I had mentioned achieving certain 'states' or portions of divinization and deliverance there were questions raised as to what I was referring. What we have discussed before and what now I see the Fathers pointing out here again is that there really is no inspiration found outside the church however appealing it seems to be at times. Illusory inspiration certainly may be lurking around different attempts to communicate with God, but the one thing that cannot be found anywhere but in the Holy walls of the Church is Truth.

In the personal testimony of St. Paul where he expressed in Philippians 1:23,24..."For I am hard-pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better. Nevertheless to remain in the flesh is more needful for you"

This might seem unfathomable to some really, and logically speaking one might question how a level of faith can not only exist but be so very alive and well today. Im sure Father Raphael can give you nothing but the best teaching and advice there is. But if youre looking for a little advice from a person who not only juggles the routine of work, children, family but has also been down some of the darkest roads and seen the blackest corners of life; whether one refers to this as cutting of the will, life-death or higher states of soul ascension please know this is very possible even for those of us living our busy lives outside the protective walls of a monastery. It is only through constant prayer, repentance, submerging yourself in the Church her practices and people that this Truth can be found. This in itself should be ones inspiration.

I would also hope you have a Spiritual Father of your own guiding you and tending to your constant curiosity :)

Hoping I hit the common ground on this one...
~In Christ
Karena

[John Charmley]

Dear Fr. Raphael,

An interesting discussion, and a useful insight into your tradition, which does not, I have noticed, exclude the reading of Coptic authors such as Matthew the Poor, which seems to be on rather a lot of the 'suggestions for reading' for those interested in Orthodoxy. But as you say, we can draw a distinction between inspiration and guidance, and a definition of Orthodox that includes Matta el Meskeen and Mar Isaac of Nineveh as authors from whom edification may be had, seems a happy one.

In Christ,

John

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Karena wrote:


But if youre looking for a little advice from a person who not only juggles the routine of work, children, family but has also been down some of the darkest roads and seen the blackest corners of life; whether one refers to this as cutting of the will, life-death or higher states of soul ascension please know this is very possible even for those of us living our busy lives outside the protective walls of a monastery. It is only through constant prayer, repentance, submerging yourself in the Church her practices and people that this Truth can be found. This in itself should be ones inspiration.

Which is why this question is really tied into the larger context of cutting off of the will as the central focus of our life in Christ.

It's not just that we have been told this or that is right or wrong. Rather from experience we learn that all things within the Church involve a cutting off of the will (ie self-will). This indeed is what gives these things their life.

So our reading also must have this aspect to it. Here far too little thought is given of the extent to which modern literature and book writing is an expression of self-will; ie an expression of the self according to modern understanding. If so then this is not the neutral activity of 'learning' which we often think of. Rather value is being conveyed not just from the direct message of what we read but also from the way in which something is written.

Again I say that far too little thought is given to this by us. Although we have become used to using our critical faculties in a balanced way of the larger media in so far as to how we can share in this as Orthodox Christians, the written word is often not appreciated for its basic power and influence on our consciousness. Why, is a good question.

Perhaps we still live with the legacy of a classical culture which highly prized the power of the word in itself as a power for good. The image of curling up with a book still has some of its original power despite the torrent of game boys, i-pods and online virtual universes.

According to the Fathers the word does have a unique power. In a real way this power was discovered and then launched uniquely by the Church. Besides the huge library we can have of the writings of the Fathers & spiritual literature just think of all the books we use during our services- the Gospels, Epistles which are liturgical books unto themselves; the Psalter which is read continuously; the Ochtoechos, Lenten Triodion, & Pentecostarion. Such a Church of books and words! This can even be said to be in the image of activity of The Word.

But words, as the Scripture and Holy Frs also say, are never neutral. In their very power they can be for the good or the bad. Through words much can be built up for example within the Church and in society for man's moral betterment. But since the more modern period we can see the role words can also play in wreaking tremendous destruction. Again why this is so, how words relate so closely to human consciousness is a crucial question that needs further consideration. But that words can never be neutral, that they need to be handled with continual care and discernment should be a central focus of our lives as Christians.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Karena Hryniuk]

Just a bit of clarification and forgive me for getting off topic for a moment.

What I was trying to point out here is that those of us who have searched out the cosmos in its technical numerological ways, studied other forms of spirituality at the cores, been through struggles and still continue to bustle about amidst worldly matters can not only have a profound relationship with God, but a better understanding of what inspiration is not out there.

I would hope this never to be a neccessary step in coming to the church or finding Christ but certainly gives a good kick in the pants (skirt) in the right direction towards Orthodoxy and her Truth, Thank God.

Father Raphael your words leave me speechless...or..typeless in this case.

[John Charmley]

Dear Fr. Raphael,

We are, again, in your debt for wisdom to which we should attend.

The power of the written word, yes - the power of the Word, which was in the beginning; and the power of that Word too in pastoral matters. The Catholic Epistles provide us, as they have Christians from the start, with invaluable pastoral advice on how to be in this world and its temptations. As St. Augustine wrote:

Because we are human we live a most dangerous life amid the snares of temptation

In Christ,

John

[Mary]

Lastly I have to say that I have been around long enough to see the fruits of going elsewhere for spiritual guidance. In no case- I mean literally no case- has good spiritual fruit resulted. Instead, since the choice is made to consciously adopt self-will in such a defining way our spiritual life becomes distorted. This is because going elsewhere for spiritual guidance usually involves avoiding spiritual guidance for the sake of clinging onto self-will. In Christ- Fr Raphael

Dear Fr Raphael,

This is such a frightening thing! During out long trip to India, because of delays, we were able to make friends with our fellow passengers. One of them, was a white man who seemed to be a Hindu. He was barefoot, had long hair, long beard, and just out of curiousity and boredom we got talking. I eventually asked him if he was a Hindu Monk and he laughed and said: "Actually, I'm Greek Orthodox!" I think I was more shocked than I would've been if he'd said he were a Hindu monk.

I couldnt' get him out of my mind during our whole trip. He was planning on visiting some of the Hindu holy sites. He had gotten sucked into this whole thing because he'd read of a hindu 'saint' who gave such good advice that everyone who went to see him, came away a changed person. I kept wanting to ask him, "What kind of changes could he bring into your life, that Christ couldn't?" But I just listened. He was so excited about this Ashram in NY and all the good work they're doing, and all the people that are being helped.

He's a good man, and he helped us a lot and I'm sure all his hindu friends are good too, including those Hindu monks who have bought his life. I couldnt' understand why he'd go to them, though, with all that he already had. And then, I found a book of my cousin's: "The monk who sold his Ferrari" - it was about a western man who was a very famous lawyer, who ended up becoming a hindu monk. I resisted reading it for many days, and just a few days before our return, when I had nothing to do, I thought I'd browse through it.

That's when I understood the power of such things to get into our minds! This man, was able to make so many changes in his life through the help of these monks in the Himalayas, that it was nothing short of miraculous. A brief glance of the lifestyle of these monks showed that it was very similar to the lifestyle of our own monks. And that's when it struck me, if Christ can do something, Satan is very good at making a very good imitation. These people are able to do all that we are striving for, without Christ!

I was afraid to read the stuff in too much detail, because, everything these people did - the techniques they taught, etc, although they bring about a good result in the end, are done only through self-will. These things could give me more control over my own weaknesses - the very things that cause me to fail all the time. A part of me said, 'Isnt' it good to know how to overcome your own weaknesses? Imagine how much more effective you could be! Imagine how much less you'd fail?' What a strong temptation it is, to want to be strong and disciplined and successful, on my own!

I'm still extremely curious about that book and if I get another chance to read it, I doubt if I'll be able to avoid reading it. But I know, once I read it, I won't be able to get the ideas out of my head. I'm already having a hard time relying on Christ to meet all my needs. What would happen if I found more 'tools' from outside the church, to help me become a better person?!

The kids couldn't get him out of their minds either and they asked me many times if we'd ever get to see him again. His ashram is very close to us, so it's not an impossibility, but I just told them, if God wants us to meet him again, we would. And on our return flight - we did meet him again! We were on the same flights all the way back to JFK. I guess God wanted us to meet him again. I couldn't believe how excited I was to see a familiar face among the millions in the airport. The children ran to him and hugged him, as if he were a long lost friend.

Please pray for him (and for us!). I can't just ignore the fact that he's a part of our lives... Nor can I keep telling the kids that we'll visit him 'later' - since they wanted to go see where he lived, from the very day we arrived home!

In Christ,

Mary.

[Nina]

One of them, was a white man who seemed to be a Hindu. He was barefoot, had long hair, long beard, and just out of curiousity and boredom we got talking. I eventually asked him if he was a Hindu Monk and he laughed and said: "Actually, I'm Greek Orthodox!" I think I was more shocked than I would've been if he'd said he were a Hindu monk.

I couldnt' get him out of my mind during our whole trip. He was planning on visiting some of the Hindu holy sites. He had gotten sucked into this whole thing because he'd read of a hindu 'saint' who gave such good advice that everyone who went to see him, came away a changed person.

In Christ,

Mary.

Ooops Mary... You have met Rick and you did not know it. He fits the description (at least the e/monachos - description). Greek Orthodox, good man, helps a lot, and looks for inspiration outside the Church. :) Rick, I am sincerely joking and please do not misunderstand me.

[Father David Moser]

Please pray for him (and for us!). I can't just ignore the fact that he's a part of our lives... Nor can I keep telling the kids that we'll visit him 'later' - since they wanted to go see where he lived, from the very day we arrived home!

Mary,

You will need to take your children to visit this person at his "ashram" since you all seem to have developed some kind of attachment. This is not a bad thing. Before you do this, however, I would also suggest taking your children to visit an Orthodox monastery so they have the experience of meeting our own monastics. You also would benefit from this kind of a visit in that you would be able to talk about the issues of spiritual practice raised in the book you looked through - the monastic elders will be able to help you sort out what can be found within the Church and how it is rightly oriented and what is either superfluous or improperly applied. Certainly there are things that we can do that have a beneficial effect on the health of the soul which are simply good soul hygiene (this is the reason that those who have discovered and practiced these things have what they seem to think is a spiritual experience - when in fact they have simply stopped doing the things that were compromising the health of their soul). The difference for us is that we do these same things and reap some of the same benefits, but we also know that there is much more for we add into the mix the cleansing of repentance, the practice of the virtues and most importantly the effect of the transforming grace of God. The non-Orthodox take on these practices and reap a natural benefit (just as the person who adopts a healthy diet reaps a natural benefit of a healthier body) but the Orthodox Church gives us these practices in a spiritual (supernatural) context and so not only do we reap a "natural" benefit, but we also reap a "supernatural" benefit (just as when we adopt the healthy diet of the fasting regimen, we not only develop a healthier body, but also we acquire the grace of the Holy Spirit). The danger for us then is not that these practices are demonic or hurtful, but rather that they are out of context, that they are incomplete when stripped of their spiritual/supernatural content. We can be deceived the the purely natural benefits received and think that we have received something more - when in fact we do not have the grace of God. Thus context - that is the context of the life of the Church - is everything here.

Fr David Moser

[Rick H.]

Mary--Nina is right!

I'm very sorry that I didn't tell you it was me in India. In fact my real name is not even Rick! And, now I am forced to admit to all that not only am I a world traveling seeker of the Truth, but I am also, in reality, an international supermodel. Here is a link to my fan club should any wish to join: Fabio International Fan Club - Fabio IFC - Supermodel Fabio (http://www.fabioifc.com/fabio/LINKS.html)

[Effie Ganatsios]

Mary, please reread what Mother Gabriela says about India in her book.
I also have another book called Gurus, the young man and Elder Paisios,unfortunately this book is in Greek or I would also ask that you read it.

There are good men and women in every religion, there are those that lead godly lives that are an inspiration to others in each religion, there are people that charm all those that come into contact with them. The man who met is still obviously seeking his own path to God. We have all met people who are very convincing in everything they say about what they believe and it is only later that we learn that every year or so they change religions or forms of religions.

Please read carefully what Fr. Raphael and Fr. David have said on this thread concerning this matter.

Effie

[Mary]

Mary, please reread what Mother Gabriela says about India in her book.
I also have another book called Gurus, the young man and Elder Paisios,unfortunately this book is in Greek or I would also ask that you read it.

There are good men and women in every religion, there are those that lead godly lives that are an inspiration to others in each religion, there are people that charm all those that come into contact with them. The man who met is still obviously seeking his own path to God. We have all met people who are very convincing in everything they say about what they believe and it is only later that we learn that every year or so they change religions or forms of religions.

Please read carefully what Fr. Raphael and Fr. David have said on this thread concerning this matter.

Effie

Dear Effie,

Thank you for your advice! I needed it to show me how much I need to repent of my pride. I always hated being told what to do, especially if it's something I already do, or plan to do. It makes me feel that the person advicing me thinks I'm dumb or something. And that really ruffles my pride.

In case you want to know, I ALWAYS read with great care, the things that Fr Raphael and Fr David write. If I don't have enough time to pay careful attention to it, I avoid reading it till a better time.

As for good people in other religions - those are the only kinds I've ever met. However, I've never been inspired by them. I've been greatly saddened to think that they are living a 'Christian' lifestyle, without Christ, and as long as they can do that with their own strength, they dont' see their need for Christ. I don't want to be like them!

Mary.

[Nina]

Mary--Nina is right!

I'm very sorry that I didn't tell you it was me in India. In fact my real name is not even Rick! And, now I am forced to admit to all that not only am I a world traveling seeker of the Truth, but I am also, in reality, an international supermodel. Here is a link to my fan club should any wish to join: Fabio International Fan Club - Fabio IFC - Supermodel Fabio (http://www.fabioifc.com/fabio/LINKS.html)

Last time I saw you, you had a bow tie and very short slicked back hair and you had a mustache (?). :) I did not know you are the 'can't believe it is not butter!' guy.

[Mary]

Last time I saw you, you had a bow tie and very short slicked back hair and you had a mustache (?). :) I did not know you are the 'can't believe it is not butter!' guy.

To be totally honest, I've never met any guy made up of butter! Flab, yes, but not butter =)

Well, 'Rick'... what did you do with that wonderful long beard you had just a few days back? I suppose it doesnt' take as much time to get rid of a beard as it does to grow it...

Mary

[Michael Stickles]

While searching for something else, I found an interesting work by St. Basil the Great, entitled "Address to young men on the right use of Greek literature (http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/basil_litterature01.htm)", which speaks directly to the topic of this thread. The outline given for it is:



OUTLINE

I. Introduction: Out of the abundance of his experience the author will advise young men as to the pagan literature, showing them what to accept, and what to reject.

II. To the Christian the life eternal is the supreme goal, and the guide to this life is the Holy Scriptures; but since young men cannot appreciate the deep thoughts contained therein, they are to study the profane writings, in which truth appears as in a mirror.

III. Profane learning should ornament the mind, as foliage graces the fruit-bearing tree.
IV. In studying pagan lore one must discriminate between the helpful and the injurious, accepting the one, but closing one's ears to the siren song of the other.

V. Since the life to come is to be attained through virtue, chief attention must be paid to those passages in which virtue is praised; such may be found, for example, in Hesiod, Homer, Solon, Theognis, and Prodicus.

VI. Indeed, almost all eminent philosophers have extolled virtue. The words of such men should meet with more than mere theoretical acceptance, for one must try to realize them in his life, remembering that to seem to be good when one is not so is the height of injustice.

VII. But in the pagan literature virtue is lauded in deeds as well as in words, wherefore one should study those acts of noble men which coincide with the teachings of the Scriptures.

VIII. To return to the original thought, young men must distinguish between helpful and injurious knowledge, keeping clearly in mind the Christian's purpose in life. So, like the athlete or the musician, they must bend every energy to one task, the winning of the heavenly crown.

IX. This end is to be compassed by holding the body under, by scorning riches and fame, and by subordinating all else to virtue.

X. While this ideal will be matured later by the study of the Scriptures, it is at present to be fostered by the study of the pagan writers; from them should be stored up knowledge for the future.
Conclusion: The above are some of the more important precepts; others the writer will continue to explain from time to time, trusting that no young man will make the fatal error of disregarding them.

Presented for what it's worth.

In Christ,
Mike

[Rick H.]

Presented for what it's worth.

In Christ,
Mike




Dear Mike,

For what it's worth? I think this is worth its weight in gold (umm. . . well you know what I mean ;) As it relates to recent discussions here and elsewhere, what a patristic benchmark!

I think given enough time we can justify just about anything or any position, but this one is so black and white . . . so very specific, this one will be very hard to talk around in circles, or to have it say anything other than what it says.

We seem to be covering more ground here in the past few weeks, due primarily to your research gift of Google, than we have during the past year. Miserable circles.

So again, thank you very much.

Something tells me we will be referencing this one again in the future.

In Christ,
Rick

[M.C. Steenberg]

Dear Mike,

Thank you for the reminder of this text, which is a classic document on the subject.

In some sense, St Basil is reflecting what was already by then the common tradition and practice of the Church more largely - and approach seen in St Justin and Theophilus of Antioch as early as the second century; in Tertullian and countless others in the third; etc.

INXC, Matthew