How do I properly engage my heart in the true worship of God?

[Rick H.]

"Dear Father, how do I properly engage my heart in the true worship of God?"



Dear All,

There are so many good threads honking along right now, that I almost hesitate to start another at the present.

BUT . . . Owen made a post yesterday that really speaks plainly in a most helpful way. After demonstrating that at least one of us is aware of the real world by sharing my own personal experience of the liturgy, where it begins on time with about 7 people and then right before communion is served there is a stampede to get a seat, he presented a theoretical situation.

Owen suggested the following question to be asked as it relates to the Divine Liturgy:



". . . how do I properly engage my heart in the true worship of God?"

And, I would like to submit this now for discussion. If someone asked me this question, I could probably come up with some sort of an answer that would use words like spectate and participate. But, I am not sure that I would be able to provide anything that would really be helpful, or that I would have full confidence in myself.

I wonder if those who could provide something other than cliches (viz. 'this comes from and can only be understood by the veterans of the true teaching about the true Church from the true Church . . .), would please step up to the plate here and help those like me, who really are not able to provide an answer that is supported by a high degree of confidence. Can any help with a better understanding of what we are supposed to be 'doing' while we are standing there wishing we could sit down (and at times wishing we were almost anywhere else but there).

I have read Schmemman's work the Eucharist. I see how it is supposed to be, according to him. But, between the chanters having a gab fest and telling each other jokes when they are not doing their "job," and the choir members racing to take off their robes and move down to the fellowship hall when their "job" is finished (even though there is much more to the service--including the children's sermon and other events at times), and those around me having a gab fest . . . at times, I find myself finding a focal point somewhere in the building. Usually it is the large Christ icon, or sometimes it is Mary painted on the ceiling, and I try to block out everything that is going on around me. And, I move into a zone to avoid the distractions of the kids with their little cars . . . and now I realize I am starting to sound like the Grinch who stole Christmas as he spoke of the Whos in Whoville :) . . but, I guess I am saying in part, what does this zone have to do with the eucharistic community?

Look at the key words that Owen has used to craft this question:

-- engage

-- heart

-- true worship

I wonder if anyone could speak to this question in a real way just as it is asked by one who is living in the real world.

In Christ,
Rick

[Andrew]

And, I move into a zone to avoid the distractions of the kids with their little cars . . . and now I realize I am starting to sound like the Grinch who stole Christmas as he spoke of the Whos in Whoville :) . . but, I guess I am saying in part, what does this zone have to do with the eucharistic community?

The kids are not distractions. They are Christ. If we want to enter into the heart of worship, we must see our neighbors as greater than ourselves, and ourselves as the least, most offensive, and most terrible offender against the Love of Christ. With pain of heart we enter the Temple and pray like the Publican. And we receive Christ into our defiled temples, hoping that His holy fire will cleanse us of all impurities so that we may behold Our Beloved in the Resurrection. And we see those kids playing with toy cars as saints, and our salvation rests within their hearts. By their prayers we might be saved. They partake of Christ.

If we cannot see Christ in the true Icon of man created in the image of God, then tuning them out and focusing on a painted icon won't help us engage in true worship.

True worship is seeing ourselves for who we really are in the Light of Christ, repentance from the very bottom of our being, and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in the synergy of our life of repentance. True worship is walking in Christlike humility, living as Prayer.

These are just things that I have been told over and over again, that I obviously have not heeded too well. Pray for me!

[Effie Ganatsios]

Dear All,

There are so many good threads honking along right now, that I almost hesitate to start another at the present.

BUT . . . Owen made a post yesterday that really speaks plainly in a most helpful way. After demonstrating that at least one of us is aware of the real world by sharing my own personal experience of the liturgy, where it begins on time with about 7 people and then right before communion is served there is a stampede to get a seat, he presented a theoretical situation.

Owen suggested the following question to be asked as it relates to the Divine Liturgy:



". . . how do I properly engage my heart in the true worship of God?"

And, I would like to submit this now for discussion. If someone asked me this question, I could probably come up with some sort of an answer that would use words like spectate and participate. But, I am not sure that I would be able to provide anything that would really be helpful, or that I would have full confidence in myself.

I wonder if those who could provide something other than cliches (viz. 'this comes from and can only be understood by the veterans of the true teaching about the true Church from the true Church . . .), would please step up to the plate here and help those like me, who really are not able to provide an answer that is supported by a high degree of confidence. Can any help with a better understanding of what we are supposed to be 'doing' while we are standing there wishing we could sit down (and at times wishing we were almost anywhere else but there).

I have read Schmemman's work the Eucharist. I see how it is supposed to be, according to him. But, between the chanters having a gab fest and telling each other jokes when they are not doing their "job," and the choir members racing to take off their robes and move down to the fellowship hall when their "job" is finished (even though there is much more to the service--including the children's sermon and other events at times), and those around me having a gab fest . . . at times, I find myself finding a focal point somewhere in the building. Usually it is the large Christ icon, or sometimes it is Mary painted on the ceiling, and I try to block out everything that is going on around me. And, I move into a zone to avoid the distractions of the kids with their little cars . . . and now I realize I am starting to sound like the Grinch who stole Christmas as he spoke of the Whos in Whoville :) . . but, I guess I am saying in part, what does this zone have to do with the eucharistic community?

Look at the key words that Owen has used to craft this question:

-- engage

-- heart

-- true worship

I wonder if anyone could speak to this question in a real way just as it is asked by one who is living in the real world.

In Christ,
Rick

Kids with their little cars??? We sometimes have women who find church the ideal place to chatter with their friends but they are in the minority. We have mothers with children who sometimes fret and cry but they are soothed and quietened. We also have happy children who sometimes run a little to find someone they know but this only lasts a couple of seconds.

I have always loved the sight of these children - they regard the church as their home and are comfortable there. If they become too "happy" they are either sent outside to play or taken by the hand by their mothers and "deposited" outside.......................sometimes 2 or 3 times.......

Rick, man is man with all his faults. It took me years to separate what I saw as the greediness of priests and the cynicism of some members of the church from my belief in God and the fact that I was in church to celebrate that.
My husband helped me to realize that I was there for my faith and not for the other people around me - including the priests.

Have you read Mother Gabriela's book "The Ascetic of Faith"? She advises us to remain in our seats when all the other people have gone because this is the time the angels visit us. Whenever I am annoyed at someone or something I try to remember something that I have read in her book and this usually rights me. An example : my husband has just come in from the garden and is singing to me preventing me from thinking and finishing this message..........................................

Disassociate yourself. Remember why you are there. Go into yourself and concentrate on the liturgy itself. You will be amazed at how many ways our mind has of either helping us or hindering us.

My church is St. Demetrius but, on weekdays, I love going sometimes to the oldest church in our city, St. Nicholas, our patron saint, early in the morning, and just sit there quietly with other people and listen to the liturgy if it hasn't finished, or if it has, quietly pray to myself. People slip in and out, there is a great silence. I have sometimes been at times when the church is being cleaned and you can hear the vacuum cleaner but somehow it is part of the silence (if that makes sense). When I feel ready, I leave taking some of the peace with me.

We cannot and should not because of humility, try and change those around us. We can change the way we feel and how we perceive situations.


Effie

[Andreas Moran]

Q. ". . . how do I properly engage my heart in the true worship of God"

A. Elder Sophrony says 'by bearing our crosses'.

[Herman Blaydoe]

The Lord said "...SUFFER the children to come unto me..."

Children can certainly be a distraction, which means they offer an opportunity to receive a blessing. What a wonderful gift for us! When I find myself distracted by what is going on around me, I try to remember why I am here and redouble my efforts to concentrate, which for me is imperative since I am the cantor and when I break concentration, the whole congregation knows it!

[Celinda Grace]

With all the other good responses here I am sure my own contribution is superfluous but Andreas' response reminds me of a quote from Matthew about forgiveness that has changed how I think and react to others around me.


What Christ offers in his sacrifice on the cross is not forgiveness alone, but the power of forgiveness to defeat that which separates man from the God who redeems him. Forgiveness becomes transformative, powerful, undefeatable, in the incarnation, cross and resurrection. Christ's offering is not an offering of appeasement, but of power effected in humility. Standing in the stead of all humankind, he offers what humankind itself cannot: a life that is more powerful than death -- a life that death cannot defeat. So the one who stands with and for all, bears the sin of all humankind, not to vitiate them before the Father or merit his forgiveness of them, but to bear them to the place where all sin leads, namely death, and and there 'raise up the fallen with himself'.

I used to think that forgiveness meant that we somehow cancel the moral debt that someone owes us by refusing to hold their actions against them. The truth is though that we cannot cancel anything. In not putting the debt on others we are then still holding it ourselves. However, if there is not a right understanding this happens unconsciously and can build up unrecognized resentment.

Forgiveness is bearing one another's sin. It is consciously bearing the wounds that others' sins create in us without any attempt to escape or shift the weight of this cross back to the one it came from. In Christ it is, as Matthew said, power effected in humility because in participating in Christ's cross we also participate in His resurrection.

Forgiveness cannot be for us and act that we do every once in a while at some large and noticed sin. I think there has to be an acceptance that we are at all times suffering from the imperfections, sins, faults and limitations of those around us. Forgiveness must be a continuous disposition. Then that which separates us from God is defeated and we can worship truly.


to bear them to the place where all sin leads, namely death, and and there 'raise up the fallen with himself'

If we suffer from the sins of those around us, it is not so much them doing something to us. Rather it is simply the consequence of the fact that we are all dead. In bearing this cross, this death; we are not, like Christ, taking on something that is not ours but admitting something which is already true that because of our pride we constantly deny. If someone 'kills' me by his actions or words what has he done to me that I have not already done to myself? But in admitting the truth we enter into the power of Truth. "You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free."

I appreciate you bringing this up, Rick, because I am not so much talking to you as to myself.

[Paul Cowan]

". . . how do I properly engage my heart in the true worship of God?"

If I may add my two here.

1) go to Vespers and confession
2) prepare yourself mentally between Confession and Matins (don't party Saturday night after confession)
3) before you (plural, you , me, we) walk into church focus on what you are entering
4) Venerate the icons upon entering and quietly stand apart from others
5) participate in the music and prayers
6) as one elder said, if you lose focus, stare at the lampada flame in front of the iconostasis until your attention returns within you
7) Say the precommunion prayers
8) say the post communion prayers
9) remember who you are and who He is
10) Don't chit chat after service is over until you have had time to absorb what just happened
11) Church is WORK. Treat it as such. It's not a social gathering. Pay attention and participate

If people paid as much attention to their experience at church as they do to say, the latest bestseller, perhaps more people would live the life we are called to live?

I'll put my book down if you will.

Paul

[Herman Blaydoe]

If you think WE have a hard time keeping focussed on prayer, think about what the poor priests and servers are going through. We just have to follow along. They have to keep looking ahead to what happens next and simply are not allowed to get "lost in the moment" as it were. It is very difficult to maintain a "proper" undistracted mindset when you are juggling books, young distracted altar servers, liturgical implements, censers, and all, trying to make sure you don't light yourself or those around you on fire, on top of what everybody else is dealing with. Despite all that, they often DO manage to keep focussed for the most part. I admit that when I am switching between four different references (I don't think it is an "official" Orthodox service unless it uses at least four different books) maintaining a proper reverential attitude can be challenging at times. But hey, they don't call it "spiritual warfare" for no reason.

[Owen Jones]

While I agree with everything Paul has posted on this recently, I think it's important to realize that the answer to the question does not come in the form of new information or instruction on what to do and not to do, but it is in the sincere, humble asking of the question that brings about the change of heart.

[Nina]

This quote was in an email I had received:

"May your entire soul cleave with love to the meaning of the prayer, so that your nous, your inner voice, and your will---these three components of your soul---become one, and the one become three; for in this way man, who is an image of the Holy Trinity, comes into contact with and is united to the prototype. As the great worker and teacher of noetic prayer, the divine Gregory Palamas of Thessalonica said, "When the oneness of the nous becomes threefold, yet remains single, then it is united with the divine Triadic Unity, and it closes the door to every form of delusion and is raised above the flesh, the world, and the prince of the world." (The Philokalia, vol.IV, p.343)"

Counsels from the Holy Mountain - Elder Ephraim

[Maria Murray]

I don't have any good insights of my own for this question, but I always think about this subject myself. I wonder if anyone else asked himself the questions I've been asking, such as Is true worship in the WORK of doing what we're supposed to do or is it in the FEELING of the presence of God (tuning out the world)? It's nice when the two go hand in hand, but most of the time they don't for me. Since you mention kids, I want to share something. During the Liturgy, I spend most of the time making sure the kids are behaving properly so they don't cause major distractions, for example, quietly direct the boys' attention to something while constantly rocking the baby in my arms and attending to her so she doesn't cry. It becomes impossible, most of the time, to even hear the prayers not to mention deeply concentrating on them. So I'm always torn - do I worship more deeply if I humbly do what's required to involve/occupy the kids or to let them go outside or leave them with someone else and 'engage' my heart in worship? Is it common for people to feel like the opportunity for deep true prayer is a luxury we can't afford? Or is the true prayer in doing our duty, such as taking care of the kids (or some other situation)?

I've read in many places that praying while distracted is a sin, an improper prayer. But the only time I can have an undistracted prayer is when I feel guilty I'm ignoring someone's needs by praying.

Maria

[Andrew]

I don't have any good insights of my own for this question, but I always think about this subject myself. I wonder if anyone else asked himself the questions I've been asking, such as Is true worship in the WORK of doing what we're supposed to do or is it in the FEELING of the presence of God (tuning out the world)? It's nice when the two go hand in hand, but most of the time they don't for me. Since you mention kids, I want to share something. During the Liturgy, I spend most of the time making sure the kids are behaving properly so they don't cause major distractions, for example, quietly direct the boys' attention to something while constantly rocking the baby in my arms and attending to her so she doesn't cry. It becomes impossible, most of the time, to even hear the prayers not to mention deeply concentrating on them. So I'm always torn - do I worship more deeply if I humbly do what's required to involve/occupy the kids or to let them go outside or leave them with someone else and 'engage' my heart in worship? Is it common for people to feel like the opportunity for deep true prayer is a luxury we can't afford? Or is the true prayer in doing our duty, such as taking care of the kids (or some other situation)?

I've read in many places that praying while distracted is a sin, an improper prayer. But the only time I can have an undistracted prayer is when I feel guilty I'm ignoring someone's needs by praying.

Maria

Everyone puts in something at the Liturgy for it to be worship. For me, I help in the altar. Some sing, some read, and some take care of their chldren. For you, your worship is in loving and helping your children, in the context of everyone else's worship (that takes different forms). Also, you are being prayed for, and other people are paying attention for your own sake. You receive grace. Don't worry! Pray the Prayer and help your children... you can always say Lord have mercy! or Jesus! or Lord Jesus Christ have mercy on us. When your children have grown up, you will reap greater grace as an old woman at Church. These "little things" are means of acquiring the grace of God.

[Andrew]

Also I find it helpful to ponder this... "I am not able to worship in truth because of my sin, so I will worship as I am. Lord have mercy on me!" God is out to save us; he wants to save us, and is enacting our salvation at this very moment. We cooperate as we can, as we are, right now. There is no "I should be" but only an "I am." Humility is seeing ourselves for who we are and entrusting our wretched state to the mercy and love of Our Lord. We put in our two mites and the Lord gives us incorruptible riches back. And sometimes we don't have the correct vision to see these riches yet, but someday we will.

[Effie Ganatsios]

I don't have any good insights of my own for this question, but I always think about this subject myself. I wonder if anyone else asked himself the questions I've been asking, such as Is true worship in the WORK of doing what we're supposed to do or is it in the FEELING of the presence of God (tuning out the world)? It's nice when the two go hand in hand, but most of the time they don't for me. Since you mention kids, I want to share something. During the Liturgy, I spend most of the time making sure the kids are behaving properly so they don't cause major distractions, for example, quietly direct the boys' attention to something while constantly rocking the baby in my arms and attending to her so she doesn't cry. It becomes impossible, most of the time, to even hear the prayers not to mention deeply concentrating on them. So I'm always torn - do I worship more deeply if I humbly do what's required to involve/occupy the kids or to let them go outside or leave them with someone else and 'engage' my heart in worship? Is it common for people to feel like the opportunity for deep true prayer is a luxury we can't afford? Or is the true prayer in doing our duty, such as taking care of the kids (or some other situation)?

I've read in many places that praying while distracted is a sin, an improper prayer. But the only time I can have an undistracted prayer is when I feel guilty I'm ignoring someone's needs by praying.

Maria


Oh Mary, just bringing your children to church is a kind of praying, isn't it?
How easy it would be for you to say, I'm so tired and even if I go to church I can't hear anything because of the children, perhaps, just for today, I won't go. You don't do that though, do you? You take your children with you.

There are many types of prayer. The deep, true prayer you mention can be achieved when you are alone with God in your bedroom late at night and the children are sleeping. I don't have time now to search for the exact text I am thinking of, but I remember reading that perhaps there is no such thing as "proper" prayer. Praying is praying out loud, prayer is repeating the words of traditional prayers, prayer is just loving God...................

Concerning work and feeling. Even our saints have had barren periods when it was very hard for them to pray. They advise us to prayer anyway and forget about the "feeling"....it will come.

The fact that every Sunday your children are in church with you, absorbing the atmosphere of the liturgy, experiencing the beauty of all that happens in our service, should make you proud.

Effie

[Moses Anthony]

Dear All,

There are so many good threads honking along right now, that I almost hesitate to start another at the present.

BUT . . . Owen made a post yesterday that really speaks plainly in a most helpful way. After demonstrating that at least one of us is aware of the real world by sharing my own personal experience of the liturgy, where it begins on time with about 7 people and then right before communion is served there is a stampede to get a seat, he presented a theoretical situation.

Owen suggested the following question to be asked as it relates to the Divine Liturgy:



". . . how do I properly engage my heart in the true worship of God?" .

I wonder if those who could provide something other than cliches (viz. 'this comes from and can only be understood by the veterans of the true teaching about the true Church from the true Church . . .), would please step up to the plate here and help those like me, who really are not able to provide an answer that is supported by a high degree of confidence. Can any help with a better understanding of what we are supposed to be 'doing' while we are standing there wishing we could sit down (and at times wishing we were almost anywhere else but there).

-- engage

-- heart

-- true worship

I wonder if anyone could speak to this question in a real way just as it is asked by one who is living in the real world.

In Christ,
Rick

Dear Rick,
While Andrew has said that seeing ourselves in the light of Christ is true in itself; I submit however, that this is the milk of every 'baby' Christian. I do not mean to infer by such a statement that what I'm about to offer is so profound as to be staggering, not by any stretch of the imagination!

We have a tendency to over spiritualize, and in so doing, overlook things: i.e., while Israel sought for a redeemer in the form of a mighty king, they overlooked a baby wrapped in swaddling clothes. I'm saying here that what is required may be nothing more than the simplest action. And again; this simple action may quite well be different for each and every one of us.

There's probably not one of us, who has not at some point read, or heard quoted what God said to Moses and the Israelites coming out of Egypt, "...Be still and know that I am God." At times during the prayers, or the litanies where I'm supposed to participate, I simply shut up! How dare I run my mouth while standing in the presence of the Holy Trinity. Being quiet also means listening. It means that with all the words I still have nothing worthy to lay before the feet of Christ, so being still and quiet, I offer myself.

To often when we're at the service of Divine Liturgy, we experience the sights and sounds and people around us. Turning to see who has come in late, what child is making such a racket, and doesn't so and so look nice, and then we try to recapture that lost moment of focus. God forgive me!

I do not know that there's any one technique, magic phrase as an answer to the question. But I do know that in part of the meaning of true worship, I "kiss towards" Christ, that I'm there not for what everyone else may think of me (humility), and that I must look anew at all which Christ has done for me with a new vision. Then I begin quietly to worship.

That is the robe I wear, and honestly, sometimes it doesn't fit the moment, but it's just following the corporate forms submissively. Other than that I cannot say.

the sinful and unworthy servant;
moses

[RichardWorthington]

Am I the only one who finds church a wonderful place to daydream? And on that note, here are my thoughts on some opinions expressed here:

while we are standing there wishing we could sit down
If you were totally alone, would you go to sit down? Then what's stopping you? What other people will think of you? Isn't it better to acknowledge your weakness and enjoy sitting down than to worry what other people think?

I move into a zone to avoid the distractions
But the distractions go with you! The distractions are within your mind! Even if everything in the service were perfect then we would still daydream!

With pain of heart we enter the Temple and pray like the Publican
But isn't it also said, "I was glad when they said unto me, 'Let us go into the house of the Lord'."? (at the top of one of the psalms)

The kids are not distractions. They are Christ.
Hmmm … they may have Christ within, but it is possible that at times He has a little trouble showing Himself to the outside world … (which I think applies also to all of us) !

When I find myself distracted by what is going on around me, I try to remember why I am here and redouble my efforts to concentrate
When I find myself distracted, I just think, "Oh well! It happens!"

the FEELING of the presence of God
That's interesting. I once heard the following, that Our Mother Church is:
the beauty of the icons which cannot be seen
the melody of the chanting which cannot be heard
the fragrance of the incense which cannot be smelt
the sweetness of the wine which cannot be tasted
the sign of the Cross which cannot be felt.

If God is uncreated then His Presence is also uncreated! (Although His Spirit does indeed work deep within, giving us holy feelings to delight in … and also a clip round the ear hole!)

do I worship more deeply if I humbly do what's required to involve/occupy the kids or to let them go outside or leave them with someone else and 'engage' my heart in worship?
But being with your children is far more worship of God than vainly trying to concentrate on created words and created signs when God Himself is uncreated! Jesus will personally thank you for being with your children, as He was a child once too.

Humility is seeing ourselves for who we are and entrusting our wretched state to the mercy and love of Our Lord
Yet St Mark the Monk said, "Humility consists, not in condemning our conscience, but in recognising God's grace and compassion" (Philokalia, 'on no righteousness by works', about half-way through, from memory!) (I would also personally like to thank all those who consider themselves to be the worst of sinners - it makes it easier for the rest of us who therefore are not the worst of sinners!!)

go to Vespers and confession
Bless me, father, for I have sneezed, and my last sneeze was five minutes ago!
(Or alternatively, click here (http://www.absolution-online.com/confessional/).)

(don't party Saturday night after confession)
Go to the pub ('bar' outside of the UK?) instead, and perhaps find the friend of publicans and sinners!

To often when we're at the service of Divine Liturgy, we experience the sights and sounds and people around us. Turning to see who has come in late, what child is making such a racket, and doesn't so and so look nice, and then we try to recapture that lost moment of focus
… and then we realise that we weren't properly praying anyway so there was no lost moment of focus anyway …


"Oh how amiable are Thy dwellings, O Lord of hosts! My soul has a desire and a longing to enter the courts of the Lord! My heart and my flesh rejoice in the living God!" (the top of another psalm - well at least I remember that it was at the top!!)

Richard :)

[RichardWorthington]

". . . how do I properly engage my heart in the true worship of God?"


Dear Mr Henry,

I know this thread was started some months ago now, but here for real are my two pennies worth. (I hope that my previous post did not offend anyone -sorry if it did - but surely part of worshipping God is simply to trying to go beyond rules by, for want of a better phrase, a certain simplicity of heart.)

Having been in such a situation of finding God distant (who hasn't?!) I found that reading the lives of the saints helped a lot: the idea being not to try to force devotion during the services, but to have it inspired. I also found that reading the Lives of the Saints written for children helped, however the main thing is to read them seeking to see the saints' heart. Certainly do not try to imitate any asceticism but try to seek simplicty.

Two books that helped me much are:

The Life of Starets Feofil of Kitayev near Kiev. His Life can be downloaded for free from http://www.reu.org/public/saints/feofil.txt ; I found it available as a book from http://shop.orthodoxbooks.co.uk/store/viewItem.asp?idProduct=54931.

Also, reading of the simplicity of the early Syrian monks moved me much. The book I know is by Theodoret, and I found it on Amazon here
http://www.amazon.co.uk/History-Monks-Syria-Cistercian-Studies/dp/0879079886/ref=sr_1_1/202-9493161-2895821?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1195027246&sr=1-1

But above all remember: inspiration of divine love is a far better source of a worshipping heart than trying to be religious:

"The kingdom of God is as if a man should scatter seed on the ground, and should sleep by night and rise by day, and the seed should sprout and grow, he himself does not know how." (Mark 4:26-27)

Richard

[Rick H.]

The Orthodox Way?

Dear Richard,

Please call me Rick, and thanks very much for reviving this thread. After rereading my initial post, I see that I started this thread during a busy time and possibly that is how I lost this one in the shuffle. And, as I review the posts above, I see that there are many gems here from multiple posters. I appreciate what you have shared mainly because it shows that you are in touch with what is being presented (viz. livin' in the real world).

It seems the subject of children as distractions was picked up and focused on in this thread; however, that was just one of the examples that I used to set the stage, so to say. So I will take another shot at it here by quoting myself in the first post. My concluding question was:




. . but, I guess I am saying in part, what does this zone have to do with the eucharistic community?



I think Effie heard me and she came in with the following:




[QUOTE=effie ganatsios;48105]

Rick, man is man with all his faults. It took me years to separate what I saw as the greediness of priests and the cynicism of some members of the church from my belief in God and the fact that I was in church to celebrate that. My husband helped me to realize that I was there for my faith and not for the other people around me - including the priests.



And, Effie followed that up with this:




Disassociate yourself. Remember why you are there. Go into yourself and concentrate on the liturgy itself.



And, there are many other jewels above that I would like to quote here now, but I'll try to keep this one simple.

The situation that I am trying to highlight here is not one of how to be closer to God or helps for the one who feels distant to God. But, in some ways the opposite as it relates to the Divine Liturgy or other church services. And, while obviously I have a personal interest in this question, I don't want to make this a personal thing or a pastoral care thing, but I will use myself as an example to try again here.

And, let me point to some key words here please as in the title I have used the word "engage" and in Effie's post she has used the word "disassociate." Effie says the proper way to engage is to disassociate. And, this is what I have done in the past. In order to not have my experience each Sunday morning to be one of someone who is off the charts with ADD, I go into the zone. If you knew me better you would know that I can be the King of Disassociation. In many settings, as with meditation/contemplation I find myself slipping into a spontaneous "positive disengagement," and often consider this to be a very Beautiful gift from above. Sometimes at a lake very early in the morning. Sometimes in the garden in my back yard. Sometimes in a woods. Or, at other times right in the middle of a very crowded shopping mall or a bustling airport. As Effie says, there is a 'disassociation' or a 'going into yourself' whereby one experiences both the goal and the essence of the Christian Life which is communion with God.

But, I think one of the things that first attracted me to Orthodoxy was the concept of community, the concept of the eucharistic community. And, in short, when I am in the Divine Liturgy (as described above) and then I do choose to sit down when everyone else is standing (as I did last Easter at the OCA Church) or when I do go into the zone (as I have done about 99% of the time at the Greek Church), I find myself wondering where is the community in this?

And, I will repeat a little from the first post here, when the chanters are doubled over with laughter from the jokes they seem to be telling each other when they are not chanting, when the gab fests are going on around me, etc., etc., etc., and I am sitting or standing there trying to block out the local visible community (because I might as well be watching a football game as do this) this just doesn't seem right. It doesn't seem right that I would show up at church on a Sunday morning, possibly in a state of spiritual warmth, feeling close to God, and have to block out the tonsured and the lay brothers and sisters in order to continue and to focus on God,

So, I think Effie might say something like, no don't feel guilty here Rick, you got it. We need to disassociate in order to properly engage and participate in true worship of God during the Divine Liturgy. And, if this is the case, then this is more than fine with me--I would consider this to be a blessing and I could see how this could help me to want to go to church on Sunday (again).

But, also, if this is true . . . then how is this experience, this disassociation, or if you will let me use the expression 'positive disengagement', any different from the experience I have shared above and elsewhere about gardens, lakes, rivers, woods, or malls and airports?

And, to conclude this one, I guess there are two questions here:

1.) Effie's conclusion is perfectly parallel to my experience; however, is this the Orthodox Way?

2.) What is the difference between a Divine Liturgy and a Cosmic Liturgy? (and by cosmic liturgy I mean being outside on a clear night at about 3:30 AM, as well as being deep in a woods one morning, surrounded by thick ferns and bright green moss, flowering shrubs, and a great variety of very large deciduous and conifer trees which give way occasionally to caves and natural bridges).

Possibly, the first question is easer to answer. Hopefully, someone will.

In Christ,
Rick

[Celinda Grace]

Rick,


What is the difference between a Divine Liturgy and a Cosmic Liturgy?
Since we are reading the Path this came to mind.


"The entire structure of our Church services, with their tone, meaning power of faith, and especially the grace concealed within them have an invincible power to drive away the spirit of the world." p 254

I remember too, I think it may have been in The Silent Mountain, someone mentioning that there is a grace in the service that gives to each what is needed. As well the fact that in a cosmic liturgy you are not participating in the community of the praying saints.

Of course it is hard when the world ends up in the services, but in this I think God is giving us the special oppertunity to love people and it weans us out of a spiritual greediness that can develop if left to ourselves -or at least if left to myself- it is often far more pleasant to go pray or take the dog for a walk and enjoy nature then it is to deal with arguing children etc.

Also their is another quote that hit me from St. Theophan about prayer

" The second stage is attentive prayer: the mind gets used to collecting itself at the hour of prayer, and says all with awareness, without being stolen away. the attention blends with the written words and repeats them as its own."

Even just repeating the prayers verbally during liturgy, though, the communion for me is in the fact that there is a communion in saying them together. We are each praying individually but we are doing it enveloped in the whole. Of course having a 4 yr old myself and two very active boys 8 and 10 as well as having a tendency toward daydreaming myself there are a lot of words I miss, but my spiritual father has been telling me lately find peace in whatever God gives us.

So we strive toward love first, and attention second. and love means loving ourselves and others where we are not where we wish things were.

[Herman Blaydoe]

What is the difference between a Divine Liturgy and a Cosmic Liturgy?

The difference between being IN Heaven and simply looking at it?

[Karena Hryniuk]

What is the difference between a Divine Liturgy and a Cosmic Liturgy? (and by cosmic liturgy I mean being outside on a clear night at about 3:30 AM, as well as being deep in a woods one morning, surrounded by thick ferns and bright green moss, flowering shrubs, and a great variety of very large deciduous and conifer trees which give way occasionally to caves and natural bridges

Rick, there is no difference. Christ is ALL of life, First Cause and Last Effect connected in an undivided chain, only realized in oneness unity and wholeness.

(remember? take a minute and think about this)

[Rick H.]

Rick, there is no difference. Christ is ALL of life, First Cause and Last Effect connected in an undivided chain, only realized in oneness unity and wholeness.

(remember? take a minute and think about this)



Dear ~Karena,

When I read your response last night a verse came to mind from author of Hebrews who wrote about unwittingly entertaining angels.

In many ways it is as the apostle asked rhetorically of the immature Christians in Corinth, "Is Christ divided?"

God bless you.

In Christ,
Rick

[Karena Hryniuk]

Perhaps with a bit of a different perspective Ill hit a common ground with this one Rick.

It might be possible that your search for community is far more than a human one, but rather a community of souls that you long for. God is all of life; cosmos, universe nature, vibration and humanity. Jesus was Gods' ultimate expression of this existence which was given not only to humankind but to all things past, present and future.

Mark His words in the gospel of John 17:21-23 'that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that you sent me. And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one"

Understanding that God is all, that His Son is the exact representation of His Love and that we are made in His image, this most certainly is found within us. He instructed the Apostles to lead the way toward this oneness and Truth of which they revealed the Source. This being the Holy Church and Her sacraments, the core being what we know as Orthodoxy of course. Christ is the heartbeat behind everything that lives moves and breathes. He knows everything, is everything. My own spiritual Father once said 'because Jesus is God, when you cry the tears roll down His face and when you are happy His heart leaps..'

Forgive me if I seem to have gone back to basics on this one. Sometimes it helps to stop and sharpen the wheel rather than spinning swiftly in one place. To me, nature is Gods unfallen creation that exists in purity and perfection. It’s no wonder we feel close to Him in these surroundings. So then, when you walk into your Church the next time Rick understand that you are not only worshiping Jesus as the human Saviour, but every piece of Gods precious sea of existence. ALL.

ICXC
~Karena

[Rick H.]

Dear ~Karena,

From where I sit, you hit a common ground dead center:





So then, when you walk into your Church the next time Rick understand that you are not only worshiping Jesus as the human Savior, but every piece of Gods precious sea of existence. ALL.

ICXC
~Karena



and as you provide the big picture here for me and path back to the basics, thank you very much--very helpful.

In Christ,
Rick

[Moses Anthony]

My time is short, so I will to my best abilities, be brief!

Many years ago as a Charismatic I was in Thailand, at the top of a pagoda, gazing out on the adjacent farmlands, With no trash to be seen, I exclaimed to myself, "It's like you can see the face of God." In the next moment, inside of me I heard "It is I!" Sufficiently freaked, I availed myself of the earliest opportunity to talk with the base chaplain.

I've not seen anyone post that as Christians in the Divine Liturgy, we're fulfilling the commandment given through the writer of Hebrews to "...not forsake the assembling of yourselves together, as the habit of some is, but encourage one another, and all the more as you see the day drawing near...." Yes as we each draw closer to God in our daily live , we see more and more of Him in His creation. to me it seems that the sentiment expressed by some is close to what some may interpret as license to disobey the commandment because, "I can worship God just as well, by myself, out in nature." Been there, done that, and it don't work.

the sinful and unworthy servant,
moses

[Rick H.]

Dear Moses,

It sounds like you have an interesting background. Thanks for this post, as well as others that you have made here and elsewhere. As for the suspicion that you have,God willing[!] no one will interpret what has been shared recently as a license for disobedience; but just the opposite!

In Christ,
Rick

[Nicolaj]

Dear Brethren, dear Rick!



". . . how do I properly engage my heart in the true worship of God?"

I always think here about me really trying to have the Jesus-prayer in my heart. I really pray to God that it will be able with his blessings, me trying again and again and the blessed Philokalie to achieve this although living in the world.

Christos voskrese! Nicolaj