Individual and corporate faith

[Rick H.]

Regarding the reference to Fr. Zosima, I think it is because no one is damned alone, and no one is saved alone.

We are all in this together.

The idea of just a personal salvation is anathema to Orthodox teaching.

In fact, if the choice is between doing something that will save my own soul that coincides with jeopardizing another's soul, the choice is clear.

Evil is something that cuts through every human heart, which we all at some point willingly participate in. So every time I participate in evil, I am making it harder for some other soul.





Dear All,

I have so much on my plate right now personally, and there are so many good threads going here on monachos right now that I cannot even keep up with, I absolutely cannot believe that I am starting another . . . BUT . . .

This one needs to be addressed. We have been dancing around this subject in different ways for a while now. Most recently as we have considered such concepts as a 'radical individualism' or a 'radical personalism' and this has been very profitable. However, in Owen's post above I just read it a few minutes ago and I read:

. . . 'no one is dammed alone and no one is saved alone.' To which I thought "Check."


then I read:

. . . 'we are in this together.' Yes, "Check."

and then I read:

'The idea of just a personal salvation is anathema to Orthodox teaching.' And, I thought "WHAT?"

Then I noticed the placement of the word "just" in the sentence. And, possibly there are too many threads going for us to get this one up and running now. But, hopefully, we can remember to come back to it if this is the case. But, I would like to put some meat on these bones here please.

Because, when it comes right down to it, what are we really saying here?

I do not think we are saying that individual and corporate faith are opposed to each other here. And, I do not think we are saying anything like: 'The idea of a personal salvation is anathema to Eastern Orthodox teaching' (because if we are then I am in the wrong faith tradition!)

But, I guess I am asking on what basis do we make the statements that are made above? And, why do we make these statements (viz. no one is saved alone, etc.,)?

And, I think I remember reading Schmemann somewhere, where he said he doesn't like the term 'corporate faith' for some reason, I can't remember why; but, I think I will use the word corporate in the title here as we may consider individual and corporate faith together.

In Christ,
Rick

[Herman Blaydoe]

Bishop Kallistos (Ware) says in "The Orthodox Church":

"An Orthodox Christian is vividly concious of belonging to a community. 'We know that when any of us falls,' wrote Khomiakov, 'he falls alone; but no one is saved alone. He is saved in the Church, as a member of it and in union with all its other members'" (pg 239).

But I also see what Owen is saying, that my personal sin and "fall" has consequences and may have a deleterious effect those around me.

We exist as a community IN COMMUNION with God and with each other (something about loving God with all your heart and your neighbor as yourself?). We are saved as a people, even as Israel was led and "saved" from Egypt AS A PEOPLE.

[Celinda Grace]

Elder Sophrony, St. Silouan the Athonite

"The ontological unity of humanity is such that every separate individual overcoming evil in himself inflicts such a defeat on cosmic evil that its consequences have a beneficial effect on the destinies of the whole world. On the other hand, the nature of cosmic evil is such that, vanquished in certain human hypostases it suffers a defeat the significance and extent of which are quite disproportionate to the number of individuals concerned."

He is saying here that we ought to aspire to sainthood, not out of a desire to be saved ourselves but out of a love for the world and a desire to see it saved. I think that if we concentrate overmuch on our own salvation the egotism inherent in this way of thinking will prevent us from either being of use to others or saving ourselves. In going out of ourself for the sake of others God saves us and the others also.

[Nina]

He is saying here that we ought to aspire to sainthood, not out of a desire to be saved ourselves but out of a love for the world and a desire to see it saved. I think that if we concentrate overmuch on our own salvation the egotism inherent in this way of thinking will prevent us from either being of use to others or saving ourselves. In going out of ourself for the sake of others God saves us and the others also.

Да, да, да, конечно Celinda! - and that is Russian for 'Yes, yes, yes, without a doubt Celinda!'. I have no idea why :) I had to say that in Russian but "blame" it on the origin of Elder Sophrony and my urge to use the two Russian words I know.

[Rick H.]

Dear All,

In the Aug. 2007 Christianity Today, there is an interesting article on the doctrine of justification by faith, as presented by the Apostle Paul. In this article by Simon Gathercole we read:




Criticism of "individualistic" readings of Paul can throw the baby out with the bathwater. Some new perspective scholars want to guard against individualist understandings of justification. Seeing faith to be transcultural, available to both Jew and Gentile, these scholars shift the emphasis from personal conversion toward the larger canvas of God's dealings in salvation history. But we cannot escape the dimensions of conversion and personal faith in Paul. These are vitally important: The church is not a lump of humanity, but an assembly of individuals. Faith according to Paul is exercised by individuals (e.g. Rom. 4:5, 12:3; Gal 2:20), and is also a feature of the churches (e.g. Rom. 1:8, Col 1:4). Individual and corporate faith are not at odds with one another.



And, this is not without relevance to Mike's recent writing in the Ecclesiological dogma East and West thread. However, I thought this was most appropriate to post here in this thread today.

As we consider what is being said above, possibly a balanced position begins to come into view on the horizon. If one would pit a radical individualism against a radical personalism (or opt to form a continuum with these concepts as they are traditionally understood), then I would wonder if there is not a path that we could take that would provide a middle way or a middle ground.

I have been reading Cassian's writing on 'discretion' lately. And, in light of the "royal path" that is spoken of by him, I wonder, is there a middle way here to be found, whereby we do not have to make a sharp turn to the left or to the right. And, if there is, I wonder where we would set our gaze in order to not turn to the right or the left.

As it relates to individual and corporate faith, or justification, salvation, sanctification, and all of the definitions of these words, or as it relates to the question the 'New Perspective' scholars argue "What did Paul really mean?" . . . I can really appreciate the teaching of Cassian and others on the 'royal path' which does seem to reject extremist positions, and thereby transcend these traditional [bi] polar positions and the dysfunction that results from them. In this sense they are not so much accepted, but they are dismissed. They are in no way embraced or acknowledged as being simply the way it is; but, they are called out for what they are and transcended by the one whose gaze is fixed on the One who "transcends every name that is named and everything we can conceive." As, Cassian says, all virtues are prone to evaporate easily, when the gift of discretion is not present. And, as we may consider a collection of people(s) like this, then the word institution(s) really does fall away, as it is replaced by all such manifestations of those following the 'royal path.' And, in the End, many labels, and categories including 'individual' and 'personal' are truly of little value.

In Christ,
Rick

[Andrew]

Individual and corporate are not really concepts that translate well into Orthodox life... the Orthodox teaching on the person, focusing mainly on the life and works of Elder Sophrony, really clear this up for me. I'll try to convey what I've learned from his writings and from my spiritual father.

A Person is born within communion, and is totally absolute, in the image of God. Humanity is to be an icon of the Holy Trinity, living as One. We are all leaves of the one tree of humanity, and we are called to be the Body of Christ in total unity. The Eucharist is an example of this - many become One. We all become flesh and blood brothers and sisters within Christ, and in turn we become true heirs and children of the Father, and we are the visible presence of the Holy Spirit within Creation. So, individual and corporate faith is the same thing in the Church. We are called to become bearers of Christ, and when we bear Christ, who bears all existence, every last man and woman, we bear all of humanity within us. So the deeper our personal repentance, the greater our universality and participation within the life of others in communion, in Christ.

There is no individual act. Everything we do ripples across time, space, and eternity, for good or for evil. Everything we do affects our brothers and sisters, the animals, the cosmos, everything... we are truly One.